Leadership Non-Presence

Foreign welcome everybody. Thanks for coming back and visiting us for another JLC media program. This is our podcast series and you can also find us on YouTube. So it's the JLC media program. So gojlc.com will get you to our website where you can find all of this. The podcasts just as podcasts and you can also find the YouTube link. So your call. We'd love to see you join us and visit the site. We think there's a few things on it you might find interesting. And the biggest thing I'm going to say to all of you that are listening is welcome aboard. I have two of my colleagues with me and truly my friends, and I'm going to let them introduce each other, introduce themselves to you. So, Sharon, give us a quick synopsis of who you are and what are you doing here with me today.

Hi, I'm Sharon Beverly. I've been involved with the, with, with Coach. I call him Coach because I've known him since I was in high school. He was my basketball coach then and has continued to stay in my life. I am an educator, work in higher education and been in higher education for over 30 years.

Thank you so much. Colleen. Who are you?

You know, I wonder about that every day myself. But in a nutshell, I've had the pleasure of working with ray for about 12 years. I've been a part of the Jorgensen Learning center and had a great opportunity to work with clients across the country in helping them develop their capabilities around applying these learning communication protocols and processes that we're going to be modeling throughout our podcast today.

That's perfect. Thank you. I'm glad you're here. There's so much in this. This is the second of like a pair. In the previous podcast, we actually talked about leaders that made an impact on us that we thought were really excellent in the way they led. Today we're going to do the non example because anytime you learn a concept, it's always important to learn non examples so you can distinguish between the two types of leadership activities or behaviors. Last time we stayed very focused on the fact that leadership presence is about your self. Talk about your focus and your stance and stance. Sometimes people struggle with stance means that it's kind of how I show up in the room. Do I show up in learning? Do I show up in judgment? Am I angry about something? All of these stances can get picked up both verbally and non verbally. So today we're going to talk about a little bit about how those same three characteristics of a leader in terms of their presence can be missed. And sometimes leaders, because of their desire to achieve something, they end up going quick sometimes. And they don't really practice those particular ways of showing up and being present in a meeting. At the end of this, each of you will be able to think about your own leadership style and decide, am I really showing up giving my best self to this particular conversation? My belief is up to this point you have, I think people give what they have. They can't give what they don't have. They give their best. This is a chance for personal development and the discipline is personal mastery. How do I get better at what it is that I'm doing? So with that said, Colleen, what did you hear me say we're going to work on today, Colleen?

Sure.

I heard you talk about how this particular podcast is the second part. We focused our last conversation on the sense of leadership presence, which is your talk, your focus and your stance. And we gave examples, both Sharon and myself, about what does that really look like as a leader. And the other piece that you mentioned is today we're going to give some non examples. And I'm sure probably already people are already thinking about a non example because I kind of feel like I see that a lot. But non example and that actually giving examples and non examples is a way that we really learn. And that's really critically important because we're just developing our own self awareness around these concepts and, and hopefully at the end people will walk away and really be able to maybe pivot and shift how they're showing up in conversations really, so they can achieve what they're trying to achieve more effectively.

That's beautiful. There's a piece in that extension that you gave us that a person that we might recognize is not giving the kind of presence that's useful, is not a bad person. It's just somebody who hasn't really thought about it in a way or even had the opportunity to get feedback to determine what it is that I'm doing that's enabling us and what am I doing that's disabling us? Did you hear something more or different, Sharon?

No, that was perfect. The only thing I would add is that to Colleen's statement is that we're going to talk a little bit about some of those missteps. We've talked about the things that are great that we can do when we're bringing that presence, that leadership presence. And we're also going to talk a little bit about some of the missteps we might make.

Yeah, I Like the idea of precious presence, I think that's really powerful. There's great work on that. And one of the great books is the present, and that's yourself. Bring yourself to the meeting. And when I have done feedback with leaders who led a meeting, afterwards, they're surprised that something didn't go the way they thought or. I actually had one leader once tell me I'm completely transparent. Well, she thought she was, and she really did. And she. She said. I said exactly what I was thinking. And the question was, how did your words land on the other people in the meeting? So that's really. That's really a big piece of this. I got turned onto this in an overseas gig that I did where I was there to do a little piece of the conference. And the presenter started us off by saying, think about some people in your life that you thought were great leaders, and everybody could do that. And in it they said, well, what did those people teach you? Powerful notion, right? So sometimes people that aren't the best leaders taught us a lot. In fact, we learned how not to behave in certain situations. Colleen, I'm going to ask you to start off with, of course, let's not name names, but to identify somebody in your life that you saw working and was attempting to lead a meeting or gathering or even just a conversation, and they struggled a bit. So can you give us an example of that?

Sure. I mean, I can give a. An example of just a former employer of mine. And, you know, she was the CEO of the organization and the president. And let's just say, because you talked about a specific meeting, but this was really her leadership style, was very much focused on her individual effort and her. And she was very command and demand. She wasn't getting what she wanted. I was part of her senior leadership team. She wasn't getting what she wanted from us. It was very much a push. It was very much dictating to us what to do next, this whole sense of collaboration. And to your point, Ray, when you talked about this, I think in her mind she thought she was creating an environment for collaboration because she would ask our opinion on occasion. And yet when we offered our opinion, she would dismiss it very quickly. I think the senior team, what we learned to do was even when she asked, why bother? So now. And I think the part that I remember about myself is how I chose to behave around her now because of her leadership style, I am now changing mine as well, almost reacting and adjusting. And as I look back on that experience, I gotta tell you, I myself became a Non example of leadership presence. Because when somebody's at your neck, then guess what I did to my team? I turned around and I was kind of the same way. So it was almost like her presence, if you will, was so vindictive and overbearing and demanding that everyone in the system reacted and responded in that way as well.

That's really good. So there's a piece here that I'm going to ask you to give me a specific example that you can remember when she behaved in this way. So as leaders, when we think about our presence, right. One of the things we say all the time, it's dangerous to make people's thinking wrong in a meeting. Certainly in public, it's dangerous to make people's thinking wrong publicly. Have you got a specific example like that, Colleen?

Sure. I mean, I can remember in a meeting when somebody, I mean, I offered my thinking, right. We were brainstorming, at least that was my understanding of the agenda item. And we were like, okay, well what are some new ways that we're going to shift how we're hosting this particular event? She did learning financial seminars across the country. And so I throw out an idea and literally I hadn't even completed my thought. And she was like, no, that'll never work, bad idea. And so right then and there I was like, okay. And there wasn't. Tell me more. There was never a to understand, There was never. Alright, thanks for weighing in, Colleen. Let's see what other people think. What do you guys think about that idea or that effort? And so it was instantly to your point. Close the door. Making a thinking wrong. And boy did it create this toxic space and toxic energy. So now we're all kind of shoulder down, not offering any thinking, trying to stay out of the darts of her eyeballs. We don't want to be the next person attacked. So we created this hostile work environment that was so non productive and actually led to my departure.

No, that's really beautiful that this happens. And it happens sometimes without you even knowing it. I think, Colleen, I shared this story with you, but not you, Sharon. I was working for a company in North Florida and they were just wonderful men that were running the company. Three guys got together, created a company and then it expanded rather dramatically. They were finding space for temporary medical workers. It was a really great idea. And they had a whole host of people they could place at different places in the northeast part of Florida in different medical facilities. So they asked me to come and do a little off site to develop the capacity of the team while the Three gentlemen who started the firm, they were incredibly good friends. They would constantly banter and tease each other and make fun of each other's words and of their ideas. And what they didn't notice was how that was landing on the rest of the team. So eventually I got lucky and I said, what's challenging for you guys because you're very quiet in here? And what's hard to talk about? Oh, well, I'm not so sure I should say anything because I don't want to be talked to the way they talk to each other. And it was like a revelation for the three gentlemen. They were, like, stunned that what they thought was. Was humor, kind of fun, was actually their modeling was causing the room to be silent most of the time. Colleen, that example was great. I think that one's interesting too. Sharon, you got one for us?

I do. So I'm thinking of a time where I worked with the president, and I'm going to liken it to. She was afraid to make a decision because she didn't want to fail, because she felt failure was a sign of poor leadership and what that did to the entire organization. I come in and I'm, you know, hey, we're bouncing ideas off. Let's try this, let's try that. And no one would give me feedback. And I kept saying, hey, come on, let's. Let's talk about some ideas. Oh, no, no, no. I don't want to give any ideas because what if it doesn't work? Well, then we're going to problem solve it and we'll think about something else. Oh, no. People who, who recommend things that don't work and they fail, they don't stay here very long. What? So we're in cabinet level meetings, and again, here's the example. She asked for each of us to give her some feedback on something and some ideas, and we did. And she didn't want to make the decision, so she kept pushing us. Okay, well, we've got all these ideas on the table. What do you think we should do? And we're all feeling, well, we gave you all our ideas. Now it's time for you to make the decision of which one you think is good here or the best direction for us. And she wouldn't make it. And she got angry with us because we would not make that decision as a cabinet. And again, it was the culture there she had laid down. You don't make the decision because if you make the decision and it fails and you have to own it, it makes you look like a poor Leader.

Colleen, what are you thinking about that? That's powerful.

I'm just thinking how it's very different from my example and yet still impacts that collaborative nature of that space, of that environment, working together. It almost sounded like she's waiting for you guys to make the decision, and you're like, wait a minute, let's talk about roles and responsibilities here. From our. And almost aligning expectations. Just sounded like that those expectations weren't aligned. She was expecting you guys really weigh in harder. And she was. You guys were expecting the opposite. You make the final decision, the buck stops with you.

That's really good, Colleen. This idea of role and responsibility, I have seen this in senior leadership. Everywhere that I work. When they're first learning how to get used to this work, they actually call some of these meetings decision briefs. The idea is not that the room's going to make a decision. The room's going to give you the necessary information. Leader, so that you can make a decision. And you also hit upon something else in that. Sharon, that I watched Simon Sinek start to talk one time, and he said, I don't think I want my work to be needed because I'd like the space to be respectful and safe and collaborative. But I guess I should talk anyway because we don't have that yet. So how do we actually create a space that is safe, so safe that I can actually just say what's on my mind and. And admit I may have failed. I had an idea. I did. This didn't work out. And the key, and this goes back to antiquity, the key to learning is mistake. I make a mistake, I learn one more way not to do it. And onward we go. What are you thinking, Sharon?

It seemed the exact opposite to your point of what I've learned as a leader. There's nothing wrong with failing because that means, okay, I know that didn't work. I'm going to try something else. I think the problem with failing is if you stay in that space, that's what's the problem or the negative or the challenge. But if you use it as a learning opportunity. And so that entire culture at that institution, they did not grow. And it was a constant. Everyone was constantly on edge. Because if you can imagine a whole institution where people are afraid to make decisions because if the decision doesn't go well, they're gone. Who's gonna wanna make that decision?

No. Of that is like one of the most frightening environments you can be in. And we have all been there, We've all seen places where that happens. And I almost feel like no one is holding up the mirror to that boss and saying, this is what's happening in the room. I mean, of all the people we can think of that have created stuff for us, they created it by making lots of mistakes and admitting that they made a mistake. Otherwise, we get stuck in this other space. This is probably one of the most interesting conversations I've had in a long time on the podcast because I think if we don't recognize this, we will get stuck in that spiral down, you know, to evil, and we're not going to get anywhere because we're not staying in learning. We're staying in knowing. Staying in knowing rather than in learning. Colleen, what's your biggest takeaway from this conversation so far?

You know, I think what really resonated with me, what popped up was Carol Dweck's Mindsets of Success book. You know, I mean, I thought Sharon just articulated that beautifully because that's an example of a learner, a growth mindset, or, you know, a limited mindset. And so that sense of what you mentioned, Sharon, is we learn these are learning opportunities and how we can embrace these learnings nimbly, adjust, move forward and continue to work towards what it is we are trying to achieve versus to your point, or we can just sit back and be like, all right, well, that didn't work. So I am not going to try anything again. I am just going to stay in my lane. I hear that a lot. I am just going to do nothing because it is all about me not looking like I'm not a strong leader or I don't have an answer. So it almost pivots you into that limited, that mindset and once again focused on self versus leaders helping people focus on the team winning.

Yeah, the leaders who make people great, not themselves, very different opportunity. What are you thinking and learning, Sharon?

Well, that, you know, Colleen and my example, they both were very similar, but with the same result. It stagnated both organizations so that they couldn't grow. And if an organization can't grow, where are we? So it's interesting that our examples were similar, but the results on the organizations were spot on.

That's right. Yeah. See that? I love that you brought up Carol Dweck. Her idea of a fixed mindset is that many, many, many students, in fact, many of our straight A students have fixed mindsets. What's the content? What do I need to know so I get an A on the paper? Not that I might not get an A and then have to learn something as a Result of not getting my A. And the literature she did that was stunning to me that the young people and she did a college piece multi year study. The youngsters that were taught growth mindset practices achieve so much more than the kids that showed up with that fixed mindset on. I got to get an A. Got to get an A. Got to get an A. And they end up in that strange phase. Got to make the right decision. No, there's no right or wrong decision. You make a decision, then you see how it plays out. This is not, it's not really something that I think we talk about enough. And you guys have laid this out beautifully. Absolutely beautifully. What's your biggest advice you would give to someone listening to the podcast now as they think about themselves and they get feedback on their leadership? What's some advice you would give them? Colleen, would you start?

You know, I think that it's really enhancing our self awareness muscle, if you will, and practicing the discipline of personal mastery. What does that look like where I'm going to pause, I'm going to reflect, I'm going to look in the mirror for myself so I can truly think about how am I showing up, what is my leadership presence. And then I think the other piece of that is once I can sit back to myself and reflect, it's really showing my leadership vulnerability in asking those people around me. Because once again, as you mentioned, I might be thinking that I'm doing this amazing job. Like the leader I mentioned, she thought she was a fabulous leader because she got results, kind of. It's the impact on the organization that Sharon mentioned. So my invitation is to pause, have some self reflection time and then open the space in a safely dangerous space with your team to ask for some feedback as well.

That's magnificent. Those of you that are listening. One of the questions I would ask when I was facilitating a leadership team is what's hard to talk about? What's hard to talk about? So often people just can't bring forward some of the stuff that's boiling inside of them that they want to get out and they just can't get it out. That was great, Colleen. Sharon, what would you invite people to consider?

I think consider. We talk about meditation, we talk about self reflection and to Colleen's example, really having some honest self reflection on how do I communicate with colleagues when they're giving me their opinions and feedback on ideas that I might be presenting or that they've presented? What words am I choosing to use? We don't realize sometimes, as Colleen said before, the person could even get the idea out, they were already shutting it down. Are you letting them finish what they had to say and then questioning and saying, okay, what I'm hearing is this and this and this. Tell me more. Why do you think that would be effective? Or are we thinking that we know it all and we know it's not going to work and we're shutting them down before they even have an opportunity to explain it? And what that's going to do to their initiative to bring another idea to.

The group probably shuts them down, doesn't it, Sharon? I'm not sure I want to bring another idea to the group. So Sharon and Colleen, because it's inside them now so they don't even notice that they do it. When you say to somebody, tell me more about your thinking. That is such an incredibly powerful piece. So those of you that are in leadership positions right now, always acknowledge what people say and confirm that you understood it. Did I hear you right, Colleen? Did I hear you right, Sharon? Notice I've done that multiple times today. I did it in the last one too. Am I hearing you correctly? Then once you confirm that you did, or whatever refinement was necessary, respond respectfully. Those that are listening tell people the space is safe. I really want to know your thinking. Otherwise it'll be my wisdom, not collective wisdom. It'll be me, not the team, and I will be growing myself and not other people. So as you think about your self talk, turn it into your talk in your meeting. I really want to hear from you. I really want to hear from you. And I really want the space to be safe. So talk safety. Your stance is to pull people to you collect thinking in the room. Collective wisdom is really the wisdom we want, not the individual one. And your stance, both of them talked about stance. The stance was not my job or it's going to be your mistake, not mine. So if we can begin to shift our leadership presence into collaboration, connection, composure, all of a sudden, people will come to you. Keep reminding those that are in your care that the space is safe. And I really want to know what you're thinking. That way we can make a collective wisdom decision by giving the best thinking to the leader whose responsibility. It's the leader's responsibility. Make the final decision. Ladies and gentlemen, hope you enjoyed this. I loved it. It was one of the better ones I think I've been involved in. And their examples were just magnificent and real. And remember, we learn much from the person that we're watching work that we're not so sure they're doing such a great job. We learn about how if I was doing this, what would I do to pull Everybody's thinking you guys were great. Please come back and see us@gojlc.com you can hear this podcast and others, and we look forward to hearing from you, getting your feedback on how you enjoyed this. Remember, leadership presence. What is your stance? What's your focus? What's your talk? Take care everyone. Thank you very much for being with us today. Sincerest thanks for listening to this episode of the Everyday Leadership Conversations podcast. The Jorgensen Learning center offers a variety of programs for individuals and organizations to enhance their communication and leadership skills. To find out more about programs and upcoming webinars, check out our events page@gojlc.com.