Mind Your Ladder: Don't React to the Data

Hi, everybody. Welcome to JLC Media. This is a continuing conversation about how people like us, who don't necessarily play in a technical way with data a lot, are able to become more fluent and more literate and more fluent in using data. And this focus of this particular one is on the tendency we have as human beings to see something and react to it. And we want to make sure that we coach ourselves and if you choose to be coached, coach you in shifting from reaction to response. And we're going to give a little bit of background to something called the ladder of inference, which many of you that study the work with us know that it is a significant tool that we use moving forward. So this one is about data, the interpretation of data, and understanding how to apply the tool called the ladder of inference as we go forward. As you know, this is all about theories, methods, and tools, and it is about an approach to leadership. Our approach to leadership is disciplined conversation. So that's why we're doing this. And hopefully at the end, each of you will be able to say, that was really good for me. I recognize that if I'm not careful who I am and my life experience causes me to react to something, and how do I take, what do I do to avoid my reaction and get to that space of disciplined response? So that's kind of what this conversation is about. What are you guys hearing?

Sure. Well, I'll go ahead. And what I'm hearing is that we are going to talk about how we can use a tool called the ladder of inference to help us shift from reacting to data to actually responding to it in. In a more productive way.

Beautifully said. Vince, some more.

Yeah. And to me, the connection of why we're going to have this discussion is because it helps us to use these tools and methods to have focused and intentional conversations which really enhance our individual, our group, and our team capabilities that drive the organization, that drive us as leaders towards the outcomes that we seek and we desire.

So that's really a great one. And as you know, because the three of us talk about this a lot, reflection is critical. And generally what we've done is we've refined the ability to reflect to a group or team process how to help a team reflect on what it sees at any moment. And in this particular place. These podcasts are a supporting set of podcasts to a webinar that we did about data fluency. So we'll continue with this, this particular process right now and make sure that we say things that make sense. So let me start with a ladder Story. So you two are driving home, and you're getting on an expressway and you're moving along and you're waiting in line, and all of a sudden somebody comes up behind you and stops suddenly and squeezes it in front of you. What's your reaction?

I've seen Vince react to that exact situation.

What was his reaction?

You know, I've seen a lot of people react to that. And I think just straight out of the gate, people get mad, they get angry. What are you doing? You're squeezing right in, you know, you're slamming your brakes in front of me, and they just react. And I'll say, my husband is a little bit of a hot head when that happens to him as well.

So here's what's occurring. Those of you that are listening is you're. The data are the following. I'm driving in my car. Somebody runs up next to me and squeezes in front of me. No apology, no wave. They just do it. What's your reaction, Vincent?

Yeah, I'm pretty irritated because, you know, the first reaction that you have is you are no more of a hurry than I am, and your priorities are no higher than mine. So. And, you know, particularly if you're trying to merge, man, you see us all waiting in the same line, trying to go the same direction. So why'd you drive all the way up to the front and squeeze in? So you don't have to wait, you know, just. Yeah, it pisses you off, man. I live in the Washington, D.C. area, and so traffic out here is crazy. But, you know, but people are crazy. Now, that's my reaction. But I typically have learned over time not to. Not to openly react to that because there are secondary and tertiary consequences sometimes that, you know, I just don't want to be involved with.

I don't want to be involved in them either. Notice what Vince and Colleen have done. So we see an event, right? And then our mental models about doesn't that person see us? They must see us. They see all these other cars. We have all these beliefs inside of us. We also then talk about driving around here is crazy. People act really weird, blah, blah, blah. All of these things produce an attitude or a belief that affects your interpretation of the data. So the person cut us off. I'm interpreting that action, cutting us off as that's not okay. And my reaction is, come on, jerk, what's wrong with you? I come to a conclusion, this person needs to be chastised at least a little bit, or something else should happen to them. So notice I perceive the event, I interpret it, I come to a conclusion, and then I act. I've actually seen people swing out and go around and try and pull in front of the person that just cut me off. I've watched people do that, and that is purely a reaction to the data that I currently have in combination with my attitudes and my beliefs. So all of a sudden, I'm in a very, very strange place inside myself, reacting to what occurred. The latter teaches us that once we go up to a conclusion, jerk, what's wrong with this person? Whatever we might be thinking, in whatever colorful language we might use, the latter teaches us that's our advocacy. We're advocating that there's a problem with this human being for the way they have treated us as another member of the driving community. The latter teaches us to shift to the other side and go down and ask some questions and inquire to really be curious about this particular event that just occurred. If we can take the time to take a breath and inquire like, I wonder what's up with those people. I wonder if there's something wrong. I wonder if there's someone in the car that's ill and they're trying to get to the hospital and the cars have just made. There's all these other possibilities that start to unfold if we avoid the reaction and advocate shift to the other side of the ladder and go back down the ladder and say, wait a minute, I'm curious. What are some other factors that may have influenced this person swinging into the traffic like they did? Well, this could be in a meeting where somebody says they have their head down, or they are looking at their tablet, or they're looking at their phone, or they're on a zoom meeting and they don't put their picture on. All these things are events that will be interpreted. If my reaction is, hey, hey, up here, look here, or stop doing that, or turn your screen on. What's wrong with you? Don't you want to be in the meeting? Notice there's judgment associated with every reaction. My curiosity is different. And if you practice the disciplines of the conversational leadership work that we do, we become far more interested in the behavior of another human being in terms of how they see the event, not how I see the event. So the latter really does help us slow us down a bit so we can take a deep breath. We can actually reflect and recover from the event and then reset. Okay, that person is gone. They're not in my space anymore. I just need to continue on to wherever it is that I'm going so I can respond more effectively. So notice those steps. The latter helps us not react too quickly or overreact to a situation. Okay. So instead of reacting, we shift to reflection. And sometimes it's communal reflection. 2, 3, 4, 5, 10 people. We reflect individually and collectively. We then do our best to recover and reset so that we have a reasonable response moving forward. What are you taking from this so far, Vince?

Yeah, so I really like the fact that what you're describing in a technical standpoint, people do it all the time. And it's really nice to hear you kind of break it down and help us understand when something happens, how we typically react and why. But what I think is most important, and what I've learned over time is it really takes some intentionality to give yourself the opportunity and space to pause and to go back down your ladder and ask the why. The outcome is always better when you do that, but it's a very intentional act. And so you really have to focus and be very deliberate in saying that, I'm going to pause, I'm going to ask why, I'm going to step back. And so giving yourself permission to do that, I think is crucial. But also understanding the intentionality behind that action is also critically important.

That's really so beautiful. It's a question of how do I exercise my leadership at this moment? And I may not be the sanctified leader, I'm not the appointed leader, but I am driving this vehicle. I have a leadership responsibility within myself to make sure that I don't create either a car wreck or accident or a fight or people jumping out of their cars, throwing bottles at each other. We've seen all those things. I've seen all those things. Not just in movies. So it does happen. Unless we have some ability to look at the data point, the event, or it could be a data set, and work hard not to overreact to the data set, to recognize I'm going to get a reaction. I'm going to go up my ladder, I'm going to come to a conclusion, and I'm going to say, oh, I think I should do this. Okay, I get that. This work today, this particular podcast is inviting people to take a deep breath and slow down, as you kind of stated, and look a little bit more broadly at what's happening. Go back down my ladder. Did I miss something? Did my. I mean, I'm used to people cutting me off. It happens all the time here in dc. I'm used to this. Okay. And these people are Fundamentally jerks. They don't care about other people. So I have some orientation toward why I'm reacting the way I am. The latter allows you to go back down the other side and be very curious and really at some level, creative. Last time when we were together, I talked about curiosity and creativity. If you're in a meeting with some people and you're looking at data sets, everybody's coming up to some conclusion about what the data are saying when they do that. That is a wonderful time to practice the disciplines of a learning conversation to find out, how did you see that? Is there another way that maybe I should be looking at this? What am I missing? Have I blocked something out? I have an unconscious bias, therefore I block something out. These are great questions to produce when you're trying to understand a data set. The data set was produced to answer a question that you have. It's always about, what's the intention of the data set? Just trying to answer a question that you produced. Caution. You're going to come to some conclusion based upon that data set. That's answering your question. The collective reflection is powerful when multiple people can say, I see it this way. I don't see it the way you see it, boss. If it's safe enough to do that, that is a magnificent conversation which allows everybody to go back down the ladder together so they can be both curious and creative about what solutions we should produce. Colleen, what are you getting?

Yeah, well, I'm just really, what resonated with me is this sense of self awareness. I mean, this is a great tool and how can I implement in a conversation when perhaps it's a performance evaluation for me or I'm receiving feedback or I'm evaluating data on my team and we're not hitting the sales numbers for the month. I think it's a great way to ensure that you're staying out of judgment and you're not stepping in to react because many times. And I can use it. Sorry. With my husband, he gets these reports every week on his numbers. He meets with his sales team and he says, many times we get, you know, he shares the numbers and yet he takes the time to develop a common understanding of perhaps the numbers with. Through self. You said self reflection or reflection with the team. And so just taking. Pausing to use that step, I think is really, really important. And many times we don't. We'll just look at the data, stay on top of our ladder and start advocating, well, geez, vent. Numbers aren't where they need to be. What are you doing? Were you on vacation? Right. And now I am reacting to the numbers without actually determining and pausing to be curious and understand what perhaps is going on with Vince or within his territory. So I think that those are a couple of really important things, is, you know, just being intentional, pausing and not coming to a conclusion based upon my interpretation.

That's brilliant. So your curiosity here is interesting to me. So I become curious about my own mental models when I see a situation. I can become truly curious if I practice the tool with the ladder, and I start to go back down my ladder and say, well, what are my assumptions and what are my biases that might be stopping me from hearing other kind of nuances in the data set that I missed? So this conversation, ladies and gentlemen, those of you that are listening, this is an opportunity for each of us to recognize. It's easier to react. And it's. To Vince's point, it's not intentional when you react. It's just a reaction. It's almost like anytime I've had someone was hurt or there was someone sick or a loss in their family, there's an immediate reaction. That's normal. That is normal. Not saying it isn't. The work that we're inviting you into is to use this tool called the ladder to recognize. I've come to a conclusion based upon the data available to me, and I know I've left some out, I've missed some, and I've come to a conclusion. If you can create an opportunity to reflect individually and then collectively, so much more unfolds because we get so much more practice at understanding that. I am sometimes tricking myself with this conclusion because I haven't asked anybody else, did they see it differently? Simple things. I'm leaning this way. Does anybody see this differently? Does anybody have another opinion or idea going forward? So that's the content for today. A little bit of caution. A cautionary tale. The three the Blind man and the elephant is my favorite story about that. Where they can they all touch the elephant from a different place, and they describe the characteristics of the elephant based upon where they touch the elephant. It in no way completely describes the elephant to anyone, just their own little reaction to what they touched. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for being with us. I'm going to ask each of my team members to give. We do this all the time in our podcast. If there's one thing you'd like, a friend of yours, someone you care about in leadership, or just a friend in general, even a kid, is there something that you would want them to Kind of take away from this particular podcast, and then those of you that are listening, take a minute or two after you're finished listening and do some writing and see what kind of stuck with you, resonated with you, stayed with you, surprised you, all that stuff. So who'd like to start? Vince, you want to start us off? What's some supportive advice you would give to somebody in practicing this ladder work when you get data sets?

Yeah, I think from my standpoint, I think that most leaders and people who are really, really in charge of people in organizations, we didn't get there by necessarily being very thoughtful and very slow. We got there by being very proactive, making quick decisions and getting there. The key is once you really become a leader, you're now accountable and responsible. You have to give yourself permission to slow things down and give yourself an opportunity to reflect, because the decisions you're making are not just impacting you, they're quite often impacting the team or an outcome that you're trying to drive towards. And so I thought it was a very good discussion today about how to be aware of, of how we react and respond. And this tool, how this tool can really help you pause and to be more inquisitive and ask questions so you can get the wisdom of the team. So that'll help drive to the best outcome. So that's my takeaway, and that's what I would counsel any friend of mine who was really interested and curious about what we discussed today. I'm out.

I love it. I'm going to add to that, too, this little piece. I don't know if any of you have been around gunfire. I have. And when that happens, adrenaline surges, cortisol runs up, you're running through your body, and you react, you make yourself safe. That's the amygdala. Am I going to fight? Am I going to flee? Am I just going to sit down and wait for the end? What am I going to do? It's a very quick response. It is a reaction. It is normal for that to happen in situations like that. And I'm not asking you. You hear gunfire, that you get three people together and say, hey, what does this mean to you? I'm not asking you to do that. I'm asking you to take yourself to a safe space. Reaction in that moment is powerful to Vince's point. At the same time, this work is about leadership, which is a risky business, and getting ourselves able to. To collectively reflect with those on my team. Very, very powerful activity. Thank you, Vince. Colleen, what Would you tell the audience?

Yeah. I think what resonated with me in our conversation today was the reaction. Right. And you just. When you said it's. Sometimes it just happens instantly. Well, my invitation. Each listener is probably thinking about a time when they reacted, and then perhaps they needed to go back and clean it up. Right. So my invitation is recognize how you show up when you are looking at data or getting feedback or developing a common understanding. Recognize yourself and what triggers you. And if you can be very intentional about your reaction, do whatever it takes to ensure that perhaps you're reacting, but not necessarily letting your initial thoughts come out of your mouth. Is there a way, really, to temper yourself so you recognize this is a hot topic? I'm going into this conversation, and what can I do to stay present, to listen and learn and not react? And I'm out.

I love it. And I don't. So I know everybody's probably watched NCIS with Agent Gibbs, and one of his rules is to never apologize. Actually, I'm sorry, Mr. Gibbs, but I think sometimes I need to apologize for things that I've done. And generally, it's always my overreaction to a situation. My intention may have been exceedingly positive, but when I overreact, I end up causing significant unintended consequences that may not be visible right away. So sometimes it is necessary for me to say to Vince, I think I overreacted to what you did. Colleen, I think I overreacted to what I heard you say. And sorry I didn't practice or eat my own dog food, so to speak. I'm going to go back and do that. Ladies and gentlemen, I think this was a really fun conversation. I hope you enjoyed it. If you want to learn more about the Ladder, you can find it on our website. And you can also find another podcast dedicated just to the Ladder of Inference. But this one, if you haven't seen that one, I think it probably gave you a good bit of information to be thinking about how to use the tool called ladder of inference when you are interpreting data. Thank you for being with us. Take care.

Sincerest thanks for listening to this episode of the Everyday Leadership Conversations podcast. The Jorgensen Learning center offers a variety of programs for individuals and organizations to enhance their communication and leadership skills. To find out more about programs and upcoming webinars, check out our events page@gojlc.com.