Responding to Negative Events

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Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining us at JLC Media, focusing on everyday leadership conversations. The quality of your leadership is typically revealed and the quality of the conversations you have with those in your care. We're extremely grateful that you took the time to be with us. We know how much time is a resource today, and especially through the pandemic and all the things we're facing. Very grateful that you're here and very, very grateful that you took your time to be with us. Our media, podcasts and YouTube videos, all these episodes come from our clients and we are now stepping into a new series. This is the third edition of a new series on resiliency. We made the case last time that we talk about building our capacity or building our muscle, our resiliency muscle on how to deal with situations. Last time we talked about dealing with a positive event, which sometimes people don't do. We have a negative bias. It's part of our culture that we find things that kind of something happens. We go, wow, what's the problem with that? As opposed to this is great or neutral. We'll talk about that a bit later. But for now, this episode today is going to be the other side of the positive event. It is going to be an event that you view as negative or didn't help, didn't bring us to where we wanted to get to. We are so interested in practicing our disciplines so that you can see them unfold as we go forward. This is a good example. Before I even get the gang to introduce themselves, I'm going to stop and do something that is extremely important for all of us to practice. And I invite all of you, listening or viewing to get used to this practice. Most of our friends think it's a little awkward at first, but it has power. So, Julie, what did you hear me say and what are you thinking about this episode today?

I heard you say that we are going to be talking about resilience. We're going to continue the podcast and this time we're going to be talking about how sometimes negative things can impact us that require us to sort of do a review and bounce back and know that it'll be okay.

It will be. And what's very interesting, and those of you that listen to our first podcast series on relationships and results will remember that we focused on self talk, the narrative that we produce when something doesn't go right. And we're more oriented to do that narrative when something doesn't go right. We're less oriented when things go well. In fact, we kind of Bypass it. That was the focus of the first episode around positive events. Thank you so much. Vince, what are you thinking and hearing me say?

So what I'm thinking is yin and yang, the balance. So last week, we certainly talked about how to look at positive events and have a discussion, which is. Which was, surprisingly to me, things that we don't do very often or do very well. And so this week, we want to present the opposite of that and to give leaders an opportunity to kind of explore a little bit more deeply what happens when things don't go so well and how can you react and respond. So yin and yang is what was going through my mind today.

I love that balance between the two edges. And I was talking with my son yesterday about how he's interacting with my grandson, and he was, like, upset with himself about how he responded. Negative bias. Again, this didn't go like I wanted. And what I invited him to do is have a conversation with his son. His son didn't see it the same way at all, had a completely different perspective about what happened in that conversation, and didn't feel he was beat up or chastised or put down or judged. So back to this sense of we intend sometimes, without meaning to, we project that negativity, that narrative onto the people we're dealing with. Really good. Thank you so much for that one, Vince. Colleen, where are you on this little context setup that we've done so far?

Yeah, well, I think it's what resonated with me is this tendency that we do have to go to the negative, and many times we do. And when you're talking about projecting your feelings onto somebody else, I mean, I recall being in situations where I'm just. It's Covid. I go for a lot of walks with my neighbor, and my neighbor had just a pleasant, from my perspective, interaction with another neighbor. And we kept on walking, and she was like, oh, he hates me. And I was like, what the hell just happened there? Okay, what makes you say that? So something had happened before that she was still dragging down the street, I guess, carrying with her. So that was her mental model. So her self talk was very, you know, this guy doesn't like me. And so she kept that with her, obviously, since whatever the last conversation that they had. So I think this tendency to be negative, and I don't think she was realizing she was even doing it until I asked a couple of questions. So kind of opposite of what you were saying, your son was kind of thinking, man, this interaction wasn't as intended. So he was Bringing that on himself. She didn't even realize that she had this negative perspective that was just showing up in this brief interaction. So I think this negative piece where you can be aware of it sometimes. Sometimes maybe not so much to your story.

I think the three of you know this. I don't know if the audience does. I have done work with folks involved in AA and Al Anon forever, all the way back to my teaching days as a high school mathematics teacher. And substance abuse is out there. People involved in AA or Al Anon have an interesting way of thinking about what other people think of me. And here's the phrase, what other people think of me is none of my business. And, boy, is that hard to grab onto. Right. Because we're always worried. Do you like me? Did you enjoy the show? Did you like the program? Validation matters, right? So this settling into. Because you can imagine someone who has been deeply involved with a substance probably has a big narrative going on about people, see them and what they think of them. And this ability to reach beyond that is critical. Oh, that's really nice. Thank you. Thank you, everybody. Let me get the gang introduced real quickly in case this is your first podcast that you listen to. What we kind of did was a bit of a check in. I kind of created the context and what people might expect in this episode. And we're going to talk about what each of you can do in a moment at the end of this episode. But for now, I'm going to get you to know the gang a little bit, just a little bit better. So here's my big push into the room. What's your favorite movie and why? And introduce yourself first and tell me the answer to that. Who'd like to go? You can't say Indigo Girls, Julie. They didn't do me.

Okay, well, since you called on me, I'll go. I am Dr. Julie B. Wise. I have been with the Jorgensen Learning center for over three years now. And for those of you who do not know, the Indigo Girls are a music group. They're my favorite group. They're about the only music I listen to. And so now we're shifting to movies, which I love, which actually makes it difficult to just find one movie, because I like movies for different reasons, but one of the ones that I tend to continue to watch, I think, over and over again, is Notting Hill. Surprisingly, I don't know. I just. I really love the way that everyone interacts. And that whole idea of my daughter's an actor, so that whole idea of the interaction of public. The way public sees the actors and way the actors see the public. And that just sort of resonates with me. And then, of course, there's a little love story in there as well. And I'm in.

I love it. So, yeah, I'll do one. On Valentine's Day, Ruby and I finally have a few minutes alone. So we had to. We had some time, and so it's okay. What are we gonna do for Valentine's day? Let's watch a movie. So we watched coneheads, which I love, which is the perfect valentine movie in my mind, okay. Because of the way they interact together as I watch the movie unfold. She just kept looking at me, says, you say that to me all the time. I go, yeah, I guess I do. I think that's your response too. So the coneheads was the one we really loved a lot, and we still do like that one. So I'm in. Vince, you want to go?

Yeah, man. So my name is Vince Starks, and I think I'm the only non doctor on the line today. But I'm all the military hackman. I spent 30 years in the navy. Really, really invested in people. And so the concept of conversational leadership dynamics has always been appealing to me. I've been with Jorgensen learning center for about a year, and my favorite movie, man, is star trek. I'm a sci fi buff. That's just. That gets my spot, and I just love it because, you know, the whole planet's getting together and all the different species and how we have to interact and engage in strengths and weaknesses and all that stuff just fascinates me and always has. And so that's my thing, man. I'm a sci fi buff, and I'm glad to be here with everybody that I'm in.

Thank you, Vince. That's great. Colleen.

Nice. Colleen Sullivan. I'm working with the Jorgensen learning center. I think I always say about 12 years. And I must say, I think that this question is specifically designed to surface kind of and demonstrate who we are as a person. And I think that when. So what immediately came to my mind, and I'm a little bit frightened to share this was barfly. So with that being said, I just remember watching it with my brother when I was in college, and I mean, rec. Almost every line. So it's quite frightening that that one popped into my mind. But if I had to say, it was definitely either that or a Jack black film, Because I'm a big nacho libre fan and I'm in.

Oh, I love It. I love it. That's really good. So anyway, this is getting you guys that are watching or listening to us learn a little bit more about who we are. And I am honored to be in this wonderful, wonderful company. All right, moving forward, we're going to develop a common understanding about perspectives on negative events so that those of you that are listening, watching can start to recognize, become aware of when you actually respond in a way that says, God, that's not okay, that didn't serve me. This is trouble, whatever it is we might produce, so that at the end, each of you can use one of our tried and true practices, which we shared last time, to learn how to respond differently next time a perceived negative event shows up. That's what we're going to work on. So, Colleen, why don't you hear me say we're going to do those two pieces?

So what I heard you say is we're going to work on how we perceived a negative event and kind of how we responded. And so we're going to practice using some of the tried and true protocols in our, I guess, way that we respond moving forward to some of these negative events.

I want you to notice something, listeners. As I ask each of them what they heard, they are giving me their version, how it landed on them, what meaning they took from it. This work is so important. The first person to ever work on philosophical communication in the context of the modern world was a German philosopher. And what he did was he actually said, we are trying to send pictures to each other. And Colleen just gave me the pictures that unfolded inside of her as I set up the purpose and outcome for this conversation today. Julie, what are you thinking? What'd you hear?

I'm thinking that oftentimes we assume we know what we think until we actually talk to other people about it. So I love that we're gonna learn a process to talk about self talk or negative events and how to get it out instead of just let it live in our head.

Yeah, the narrative is strong. And if we let the narrative stay too long and keep repeating it, it eventually becomes a belief and it's a belief. We just can't. If we respond to that belief, we're in trouble. That's great. Thank you, my brother. Vince, what you thinking? What you hear.

So what I was thinking, man, was really more personal. You know, I think of myself as a pretty smart guy and I know a couple things, but sometimes we come up with these topics that resonate personally. And so I know this is an area of, not an area of strength that I have in my personality. And as smart as I think that I am, sometimes I'm reminded that you need to be reminded and review the things over and over again to kind of remind yourself on how to respond. So I was excited as you were unfolding the topic and unpacking it because I think I'm going to learn something. I think I'm going to take more from this experience today than I'm going to give. That's what was in my mind.

Well, you know, this is interesting. At the level that we do work, so all of us have experienced this. We teach people these practices, protocols, these disciplines. At the professional level, they're usually a leader like you, Vince, or you, Julie, or you, Colleen, you're leading a team and, and you learn to use these practices. My wife reads all the responses we get on social media after we've done an event. They transfer these ideas to their personal lives with their partners, with their kids, and we get more. And I think it's probably two to one that. Thank you so much because this is really helping me in my interactions and my relationships with those that are most close to me. So that's really nice. Thank you. All right, let's roll up your sleeves now. Here you go. Tell me, the last time you had a very challenging interaction could have been a conversation. Remember, a meeting is a one on one conversation or a one on many conversation. So what's the last one you can remember where, oh my God, I didn't expect that. And oh, where is this going to go? And I'm sure you're all getting something bubbling up inside of you going, yeah, I can tell you this exactly, Ray. So who's got one they're willing to give me first?

I'll go. So this is Julie and I am thinking of a training that I did. It was in a room full of medical doctors and medical personnel. And we often do some things where we ask them to ask us questions, questions. And the one person said, what do you have to offer us if you weren't. If you're not a medical doctor? And then the next person said, well, how do you know you're successful? And those two things triggered me. And I found out later that they didn't mean it. They totally meant it as they wanted to really, truly understand a little bit deeper about what I'm bringing to them and how it's gonna benefit them. They were not attacking me, but the way it occurred to me, it was an attack. And I got snippy and snappy and I Let them know right away. And the presentation didn't even start yet. Oh, my gosh. So I'm already like this big asshole, you know? And it just went downhill from there. People didn't talk then. And when people don't talk, then I talk more. And then I'm babbling and I sound like I don't know what I'm doing. I'm trying to overcompensate. It was a nightmare, an absolute nightmare. That's my story.

Oh, my God, Julie. I think we all could find a meeting just like that. Probably very recently. My first experience at Bu Med was now probably 20 something years ago. And this one woman I didn't even understand ranks back then, she was either an 05 or an 06. And she says, what kind of a snake oil salesman are you? I'm like, holy crap. I don't even want to talk about this with you. So that is really good. Colleen, how about you? You got one?

Yeah.

It's funny because probably professionally, I've felt that way in front of a group. Anytime you get up in front of a group, Right. Hundreds of times. I mean, hundreds. This one time, very similar. It was so Ray was supposed to go to work with 150 people. Okay. And for whatever reason, I can't remember Ray, I think you were ill or something happened and Ray couldn't go. So he calls me up. Do you mind if you go and pitch hit? And I'm like. It literally was like the second time I think I was in front of a big group. So I'm like, okay, I can do this. This is going to be awesome. Right? I've been traveling around with Ray. I've been studying. I know the work I'm in. So I'm really excited. I'm looking forward to it. I get on the plane, I fly there, I show up, I'm early. I'm doing. I'm planning and planning and preparing and preparing. I get in front of this group with 150 people and the first thing is they're all looking around like, where's Ray? And I'm like, instead, right? So there's one already. People are put off.

Yep.

Number two, the room is so dark, I can barely see. People are really pissed off also because they have these little tiny coffee cups. I'll never forget that. That had. They were like shot glasses for their coffee. So they were all bent because they didn't have a good coffee cup on top of it. And then I started the work, and I'm doing these things and doing These things. And all of a sudden I'm like, I'm not feeling connected to the group, I'm not quite sure what's going on. And now to your point, Julie, anytime you feel that way, people are not responding, they're not engaging. I'm like, what's wrong with me? So now I'm overcompensating. So literally I'm like, I'm just gonna take a break. So I give these guys a break and I literally run to the bathroom and call Ray, Ray, oh my God, oh my God, what's going on? Help me. And so he was giving me this coaching from like the women's bathroom, from one of the stalls. So I raised back out there, you know, and try to engage in different way, but getting some friggin coaching from afar. And let me just say at the end of that day, I called Ray for a debrief, as I did every time after a big group. And I was crying.

Remember crying? I do remember this, yes.

He's like, well, what's one thing? We're doing our after action. What's one thing that went well? I think I look nice. I mean that was so. I think that, you know, and I feel like that on both sides you could feel it. So anyway, that was the one out of the hundreds of times that I feel like I didn't connect. Julie, that story resonated with me because the same thing kind of happened and it was painful.

Your actual description was my hair looked nice.

My hair looked nice? Yeah.

You didn't tell me you looked okay. You said your hair looked nice. So in between sobs, give me green slobs. Oh yeah. That is a frozen moment in my development of what has become just a magnificent relationship with this woman. But I do remember that completely.

Vince, you got one man, I can't compete with that. But your hair doesn't. Nor can I, you know, so for me, mine is more one on one. I had a partnership meeting, lunch just this past week with the guy who's kind of a mentor in a new space, a new area I'm trying to work in. And I did some research on the project and I never want to come to the table empty handed without something to a contributor to ask. And so I had my list of questions that I wanted to kind of talk to him about. But this guy is so smart and so brilliant that he anticipated that. He knew every question I was going to ask and everything that I was going to inquire about before I had a chance to ask. And so I would Start asking the question. And he would cut me off in mid sentence to give me the answer and the solution. Ask the next question. He would shut me down, go, I know what you're going to talk about. I know what you want to know. And he would start giving me the answer. And about the third time, it pissed me off. And so finally I just said, hey, man, you don't know what I'm going to ask until I open my mouth and I ask. I would greatly appreciate it if you would just let me get it out and then tell me that I'm wrong or to correct me. But I had to catch myself because I could feel the frustration with that interaction with this person who had superior knowledge in this area. But I felt I had something to contribute and I was bringing value and the things I wanted to know. So it took a little bit of reflection. I was not in the driver's seat as a leader. I was the recipient, if you will. But I felt that I was not being heard, not being listened to, and it was causing a problem. And so we shut things down. We finished our lunch and the guy actually called me that night and said, hey, I think today's lunch was a little frustrating. And I was like, I think you're right. And we had to kind of come to an agreement on how we're going to interact with each other to come to common understandings as we move forward. So it didn't go well. I think it'll go bad in the future. But that was the recent example of the one on one.

Yeah. So what did you say to yourself after that happened?

I just had to go back and reflect and think, you know, I need to take a moment of pause. You know, even when I'm frustrated, I just need to be quiet. Sometimes listening is a great tool. And then I don't think I was patient enough to listen to him fully. But because I wasn't being heard, it immediately kind of put me in a different mental place. And so I did. I had to pause and I had to slow down the interaction until we can come to a different space. And sometimes that won't happen right away. It was okay for us to do it later.

Yeah, that's about coping with a really challenging interaction. So I think what we've learned in doing this work together is I like to pick one and use it and deepen our understanding. So I'm going to have Julie and Colleen do what we call very simple process after action review. And you are trying to figure out how to cope in the moment. Right. And that tends to be a reaction as opposed to a response. So we're going to go there in a moment. So only you can answer this first part. If you could summarize the intention of that conversation events. What was the intention?

The intention was to develop a common understanding around priorities, to define priorities for the project moving forward and determine how we were going to begin to work together, how we were going to unpack it. And in that discussion, I had clarifying questions. I did some research. I had new questions about things I didn't fully understand and that I wanted to inquire about. And as opposed to being able to do that, my partner, who had superior knowledge in the overall program, was anticipating what I was going to ask and what I was inquiring. He began to answer before I could get the question out.

So, yeah, okay, great. I really think I got it. So, ladies, you understand his intention, I think, pretty well from that little set of sentences. What did you hear that he did in that meeting when that gentleman kept interrupting him? What did you hear that he did?

I heard that he got his conversational dukes up. That's what I call that. Right. Where you're kind of just boom, bobbing, weaving. You're landing a punch and then he's landing a punch. So it's not necessarily having a dialogue or a true open conversation. It's almost like you're pausing to interject and put yourself out there and, hey, man, you know, that's not what I was going to say. And what about this? So it truly sounds like that there wasn't necessarily a true conversation going on. It sounds like there were two individual people that had individual thoughts that we're kind of talking at each other.

Oh, nice. That's nice. I think. So I'm going to ask Julie to weigh in also on what she heard that he did. And then I'll ask Vince to say, yep, you got it right, or no, let me add this. So, Julie, what did you hear that he did?

I heard that he spoke from the heart, which is very difficult and takes courage. That he was willing, after the third question to say, hey, wait a minute, I am. You're not. You do not know what I'm asking until I ask it. And I really would prefer us communicate a little bit differently. And he didn't have to do that. He could have let him continue to interrupt the whole entire time, but he was willing to pause and say, wait a minute, this isn't working for me. So that's what I heard.

Did they get that right?

Vince, they both were right. I think that, Colleen, your interpretation was accurate. But I believe at the time that I was trying to hold an open conversation initially. But after repeated cutoffs, I did. I became more and more frustrated because I just felt like I wasn't being heard. And the only other thing I'll add to that, man, you know, I traveled quite a. Quite a distance, you know, for the meeting. And so, you know, to me, time, the time constraint and the investment place there. So I just wanted to get things on tape. But you're both very, very correct and very accurate.

Yeah. Yeah, I like that a lot. So notice what we just did, those of you that are listening or watching. I had Vince identify in this particular piece what he intended to accomplish, and I think that was great. Then, based on what he told us happened, each of my colleagues was able to say, this is what I heard happened in that particular piece. We're doing intention. And then what did I do? Or, I mean, if you're doing a group meeting, what did the group do? You know, what did we do? Right. I believe these after action reviews should be done individually and collectively. Many people just do them by themselves afterwards. I actually think they're even stronger when for. In Vince's case, if the two of them did an after action review, which it sounds like he might have done that evening. So moving forward, intention, this is what I did. I'm going to ask them from their perspective, Vince, to tell me what they think you may have learned, because you gave us some of that already. So why don't you do that? Julie, what do you think he was learning as he's thinking about this in retrospect, and he's reflecting. Notice. Reflecting. What were some of the learnings that you heard unfold in Vince's dialogue?

Well, there was something about control or in the driver's seat as a leader, like, who's the one who's responsible for this conversation and the direction that it's going? And so there could be two things in that area. First of all, to how does he need to prepare himself if he knows he's not going to be in the driver's seat even though he's used to it, how can he shift into listening and learning versus coming in as knowing? And the second thing would be if that person continued to share and share and share and interrupt, what's the possibility of just stopping the questions? Like the questions aren't needed? So let's put the questions aside and say, what is it that you think I should know?

So you did that beautifully. You just did something really strong to. You said, this is what you think he could have been learning, and you shifted him into, what might I do differently next time? Julie, that was magnificent. Vince, what did you catch from that?

Yeah, so spot on. You're right. I really. What resonated with me in that comment was the shifting from a place of knowing to learning. And I really liked the piece of just stop asking questions, right? And just say, hey, what do you think is important? What is it you would like me to do or to take or to walk away from this experience with and just be in the receive mode. And you're right. Even in partnerships, you know, there's a leader, there's a follower there somewhere, that relationship. So you're right. We go into this meeting, say, hey, we're partners in this venture. But it was clear that I was not the intended leader of the group. And I knew that in my mind, intellectually, I just wanted to ask clarifying questions, but I think my questions were perhaps coming across as being in the front and driving. So the ability to understand that very clearly and articulate that I'm here in a place of learning and not knowing, and then to shift and have the ability to ask, what would you like me to receive? So I really like that. The ways you phrased that was very.

That was excellent. Yeah. Julie, anything to add?

No.

Yeah, there's a piece he just laid on the table for me where, because of what I do and I practice this stuff all the time, I had one of my kids say, I feel like you're working me. And all I was doing was asking questions to better understand what was going on. But it was like, you know, you don't have to be there. And I remember when I was a school principal, I had my wife at that time, and the kids say to me, you're not principal in this house, and stop pushing us around like you do or you think you do at the school. So there was so much learning in that for me as time went on. But I still notice I can drift. And Julie gave me another piece. And Vince, I really want you to catch this. My first couple of years out of leadership, formal leadership positions, when I was learning how to support people as an outside consultant or an asset, right. I kept drifting back into, I know what to do. And I just kept telling people what I think they should do. And I'm sure I shot myself in the foot many, many times before I realized, come on, buddy, they are the leader. They are taking care of people in their Care. Your job is to support them in their journey. I was just going to tell them how to do it, and that was useless and never useful to the client. Colleen, what did you hear in terms of learnings and possible shifts in behavior next time?

Yeah, I think that Vince already did a beautiful job of identifying some things that he would do differently as far as different ways to interact and engage. I think one of the things that kind of surfaced and resonated with me was just when he was explaining, he did an absolutely beautiful job of explaining context and really putting some context around his thinking. And my wondering would be, I wonder if that actually happened in the conversation. Because when you ask and advertise, hey, you know what, I realize that you're a subject matter expert and you're driving this thing, man, but I got some questions and they're just meant to clarify. So I just wonder if it's all right if I go ahead and lay these bad boys on the table just for me so I can learn more about the priorities and the way ahead. Sometimes having that is, you know, it makes me see the other person's not. Well, to your point. Right. Going, you know, they're working. Ya.

Yeah. Yeah, Vince, how does that resonate?

Yeah, I think again, sounds excellent. And I did have some opportunity to reflect. I didn't in our initial conversation articulated that way, but what I did do was frame in my mind, as we move forward and have future dialogue interactions, I will set my questions up differently. You know, my going in will be much more an advanced preparation. Here's, you know, what is the intent of this exchange? We're having this meeting today. What do we want to achieve and get out of this and apply more formally the techniques that we do in our work? Because you're right, Ray, you made a point earlier how we do things in our personal life. And so sometimes you're not thinking about the processes as you're executing things throughout the day. They're just happening to you along the way. And the ability to reflect is this key. So thank you for that.

You were thinking about what you're going to order for lunch. Come on, Vince.

Yeah, I did. I had rice burger. You're right.

So this is these after action reviews. What they do is they. And if you haven't seen the webinar that JLC has on, here comes 2021. How do we let 2020 go thankfully and engage in 2021? What they did in that one, it was a beautiful little webinar which is on our site, gojlc.com youm can go look at it if you choose to. What Vincent did and this is magnificent. Vince, after the meeting he reacted and reflected. Now in the meeting there was some reaction by him, but he can recognize that during this after action review. But we react and we reflect. And then by the time he had the conversation that evening, he recovered and reset himself so he could respond. The purpose of the after action review that we just went through Intention. What did I do? What did I learn? Last part. What will I do differently next time? Vince has already revealed that the next time I'm going to do this. And Colleen and Julie gave him other things to think about to ensure that this was one of my failings. Once I stated my context, my purpose, my outcome, the intention of the meeting, I just thought the other person got it and I never closed the loop. I just launched into the frickin meeting and they never did it work. Never, never, never until I actually learned to close that loop and make sure that person heard me, had the same pictures in his or her head that I had in my head or at least close. Right? I should not move forward until that's really clarified. That's really. There's great learning in this one for all of us in this particular piece. So after action review we asked Vince, what was your intention? What did you do? What did you learn? What might you do differently next time? That lives in that framework of I reacted, I'm reflecting, I'm now recovering and resetting and now I will respond. This is powerful work for all of us to do on a regular basis. When this meeting is over, I will go through that process myself because I was the one that got to start the meeting and I'm kind of talking through it and saying questions and keeping us together. I will go through the same thing. What did I do? Intention. What did I do? What did I learn? What will I do differently next time? Those of you that are listening to our podcasts, I believe you are noticing these podcasts are developing even more resonance going forward because we are all reviewing together what we're doing. When we're done here, we're going to talk about this in exactly the same way. Well, we have really drifted to the end of this thing. So when something surprising that you perceive as negative hits you during an interaction, one on one or one on many, at the end of that time, it's really important to take. Take time, your resource, your asset, take time to say, okay, here was my intention, here's what I did. And it didn't go as I expected and this is what I learned and this is what I will do differently next time. Positive events and negative events, they both are fundamentally ways of. You have to figure out ways to cope, which is building that resiliency muscle. We're going to build that muscle by learning how to cope more effectively. This next practice. I think the feedback we're getting, people enjoy this, so hope you do, too. What is your biggest takeaway? Now, Vince, you were on the spot, so I'm going to start with you. What is your biggest takeaway from this conversation? Because, by the way, I'm so grateful that you were vulnerable like that and said, let me tell you how this went, right? And all of a sudden we have a real, authentic, transparent, vulnerable conversation. And as Brene Brown always says, when you're vulnerable, that's where creativity starts. So we start to create a new way forward. So, Vince, really, from your vantage point, what is one or two big takeaways from this conversation for you personally and professionally?

Yeah. So I think there's one big thing I didn't do going into this meeting that I think I have to be very intentional about moving forward was I didn't clarify the intent of the encounter of the meeting. It was, let's have lunch. And again, I came to the meeting with things of what I wanted to do in that and clearly the other person had the intention. So I didn't clarify, which is something I should. I know better and I should have known better to do that, but I just wasn't thinking. So, a, I learned to be very intentional and understanding before I go into an engagement on what I want the results of the outcome to be. Okay, number one. And then number two, I was just reminded by my colleagues on just ways to be thoughtful when you enter the space and engagement, because you're going to have misunderstandings and conflicts sometimes when you. When you meet and if you're talking business and arrangements. And so the ability that I have to kind of understand my personality and then to pause and, you know, and just be more reflective and inquiring as opposed to, you know, knowing and judging what I anticipate outcomes to be. So it was just a good moment to recharge and reflect on how our approach going into that situation and to understand the things that can happen both positively and in this case, negatively in those encounters and how I respond is very important.

I love that. I love it, Vince. So I will say to you, my friend, that I went to a meeting, this has to be 22 years ago. I was working as A chief learning officer for a.com in the new York area. And I went to. It was a dinner meeting, so I thought it was. And you know me, I'm not the most social animal on the planet. So I'm thinking, okay, we're just going to have a drink, eat some food and go home. As it turned out, it was a review of my practice and whether they wanted to keep as a. As a member of their team, which by the way, they eventually did not. And I showed up at this dinner meeting and I'm like, oh good, we're going to have a drink and have some food and talk about the Mets. You know, something, you know, and bang. So, boy, was that powerful. And that resonated deeply with me. Colleen, what got you?

I think it's react and respond. And I think in the moment when you're emotionally charged, when you're really like, holy shit, this isn't coming out the way I thought. I think in that moment it's easy. You know, we do. We just naturally go to our default mode, which is reacting. And I think that it's really important to recognize when we're in that mode and when we do have our conversational dukes up because that is a different feeling. And even if you know you have not, if you're focusing on your self awareness, this is something I think to be very deliberate and intentional about because I always talk about. It's a feeling I can feel in a room when things go sideways. You can feel it in some ways. So I think in those one on ones or in the one on many recognize, am I okay, this isn't going well. Am I now reacting or can I pause in some way to pivot slightly to responding? And so I think that that's really difficult to do, but I think it goes back to building the resiliency muscle and first recognizing that and then developing that capability within oneself.

That's neat. Yeah. The ability to be self aware is part of the witness or the with itness equation. Leadership with itness. My presence and my self awareness. Both of those things need to match. Otherwise I end up doing a lecture on something nobody wants or I'm solving a problem I didn't understand in the beginning. So now everybody's sideways with me. I love that self awareness comes from this practice. Julie, what resonated with you most?

The thing that resonated most is the importance of having someone to talk to and reflect with personally. For me, when I was a literacy consultant and going to different school districts and things would not go well, even if it was one little teeny thing, I could get 150 greats, and I would get one that would say, this was the worst training I've ever gone to. And I would just focus on that one training. And I'll tell you what, I was by myself, and I didn't have anyone else to talk to. And so each training got heavier and heavier and heavier. And it got to a point where I absolutely hated it and refused to do it. And I had to leave education for a while. And so here I am now with jlc, and we do this on a regular basis. It is expected every time we do a training to call one of us. We don't necessarily have to do it as a team. But I'll call Colleen or I'll call Ray or I'll call Vince, and I'll go through this. And it is just such a heavy weight lifted off to know that I don't have to do it on my own and that I'm reminded that actually 100 things did go really well, and it really only was one thing, Julie. So get over yourself and learn from this, and the next time, it'll be better. So the importance of whether it's an executive coach or whether it's a therapist or whether it's a colleague, someone to reflect with every time you have a conversation or training that doesn't go well.

Oh, that's magnificent. And your hair looks nice today, by the way.

Thank you.

So there's a whole edge of YouTube. I was, like, stunned by your outfit and your hair today. There is always something that happens to us, and I do think this negativity bias, we learn it like, you know, I got five A's and a C. A C. And all of a sudden we come by this in this developmental practice all the way through the school systems that we go to. So well said. And if I don't have somebody to talk to, I will implode because my negativity bias will kick in, and I will focus on only the one thing they said that wasn't okay.

Yep.

Danger, danger, danger, Will Robinson. So really nice, guys. Well done. And I'm so, so glad to be doing this piece on resiliency with you in terms of our ending point. I've got an idea for you. So I'm going to do this as a way of checking out and so just whatever comes top of mind. I say the word resiliency, and you immediately think, Julie, map. Love it. I say resiliency, Colleen, and you think flexibility. Love it. I say resiliency and Vince thinks.

That'S a dangerous space, but I'm.

Come on, Vin, resiliency is a dangerous.

Space or just your thinking? No, when you say resiliency, what comes to mind for me is strength.

I love it. Yeah, this is all about strength. It's all about that. Ladies and gentlemen. Hope you enjoyed it. I invite you strongly to take a couple of minutes. Not now if you're driving, but if you're feeling, finish driving, to sit still and reflect. What was your biggest takeaway personally from this particular podcast or YouTube that you just watched or listened to and give yourself an opportunity to think about how to turn one of these ideas into your practice. Just one. Just one. Disciplined practice produces progress. Come see us at www.gojlc.com for lots more work and media productivity. We have some events coming up I think that you'll love. We're so, so grateful that you took some time to be with us today. On behalf of the JLC gang that's in front of you right now that I had the incredible privilege of working with today, thank you. Thank you so much for being with us. Take care.

Sincerest thanks for listening to this episode of the Everyday Leadership Conversations podcast. The Jorgensen Learning center offers a variety of programs for individuals and organizations to enhance their communication and leadership skills. To find out more about programs and upcoming webinars, check out our events page@gojlc.com.