Talk is Cheap

Hello. This is a JLC event which can be found on JLC YouTube channel and your subscribed podcast channel. At JLC, we focus on holding conversations that produce desired results. This series is on relationships and results. This episode is called Talk is Cheap and it focuses on different kinds of interactions that we all have each and every day. Or talk can be cheap and without discipline and attention just passes time. I'm Vince Starks. I'll be one of your co facilitators today. And before we move on, I'd like to introduce my colleague Colleen Sullivan who's with me today. Colleen is in Northern California. She's an avid skier, but most importantly folks, she brings a wealth of knowledge and executive leadership and coaching experience. She's been doing this well over a decade and I'm honored and privileged to be with her here today.

Colleen, thanks so much Vince and I really appreciate that's true. I am an avid skier. There's no snow quite yet, but I am doing my snow dance actively also. It is my pleasure to be with Vince Starks. We welcomed him into our team almost approximately a year ago, but he brings an amazing lifetime of experience and really the application of many of the communication learning protocols. So he's got some incredible real life application experience and a wealth of knowledge in many of the things that he's accomplished in his lifetime as a leader. So thanks and I'm looking forward to our chat. Talk is Cheap is always one of my favorite topics to discuss.

Absolutely.

And before we do move on to our content, really we just wanted to say thank you. The JLC team realizes and recognizes how busy we are and there are so many things going on. I think the studies indicate we're actually in more meetings than we ever were before. So just taking this tiny bit of time out in your day to listen to our podcast. We are exceedingly grateful for learning and time are connected and when used well, all of us can really improve the quality of the everyday leadership conversations that we hold. One of the things that we know about learning and really staying focused is sometimes we have some distractions. So we encourage you to do your very best to just be focused and try and have a distraction free environment, whatever it takes for you to stay focused and to learn just a couple different things that might help you once again in those leadership, those everyday conversations that you're having each day. So before we move forward, we always like to make sure we're all on the same page. Really. Talk is cheap. It sounds good, but what's that really mean and what Am I going to learn today by listening to the podcast? Well, our hope is that you're going to learn a couple different things and once again find a few things that you can apply immediately into the conversations that you hold. We know talk can be cheap and sometimes distracting talk. And meetings happen all the time, either in brick and mortar and especially now in this virtual world. And the most impactful leaders work to achieve results through relationships. Once high quality professional relationships are in place, everybody wins. Winning means helping the team win by accomplishing the desired results and what it is we're trying to work together collaboratively to do. Today we'll be discussing how human interaction can lead us to a conclusion and a successful outcome. And that's individually and collectively. So if you're individually leading conversations, giving presentations, the virtual world, or you're leading teams in this virtual world, our hope is that you will develop a common understanding of how to lead impactful learning conversations and that those that you will be able to really apply those. And so at the end of this, each one of you will be able to understand the difference between these types of interactions you engage in on a daily basis and really focus on the ones that sustain and enhance quality relationships. So that was a lot of stuff I just shared. Vince and I want to make sure that we're all on the same page before we move forward. So I'd love just to invite you back in this conversation and what did you hear we're going to be accomplishing today. And then please add anything else but lift it out.

Yep, no problem. So that was great. And so what I heard, my takeaways were that it was very important that during human interactions we understand that those interactions can lead us to conclusions, hopefully successful outcomes, but if we're not careful, they can slow us down. I also heard you say that as listeners, we want to develop a common understanding about the impacts of those conversations and how they can turn into everyday leadership conversations. And finally, what I really took away was the outcome. The outcome that I heard you state was that the different interactions we engage in on a daily basis, if we monitor them well, if we understand them, they can help develop and sustain successful relationships and positive results and desired outcomes.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think a big piece of that also that we'll also touch on is that self awareness. Because I could be sitting over here thinking that, you know, for example, that I said the best focusing statement. We always like to begin with the focusing statement, with everything to make sure we all know why we're here. And that is very Focused conversation. And so just closing the loop really helps us make sure that I got us all on the same page in the way intended. So thanks very much for that, Vince. I appreciate it.

Oh, absolutely. So with that, let me ask you a couple questions. So we're talking about communications and those successful outcomes. And they all occur based off the interactions that we have with others. And interactions come in a lot of different forms. So for the purpose of our conversation today, Colleen, can you tell me from your own experience, your perspective, the differences between the following interactions? The three we're going to focus on today are debate, discussion and conversation.

Yeah, excellent. So absolutely. And I think it's really, really important because a lot of times we talk about formal conversations and informal conversations and we're really focusing on specifically three different buckets, as you mentioned, or types of interactions, and they can be formal or informal. And so the first one that you mentioned was debate. And I would say, you know, debate really for me occurs when I am advocating my position and I feel like someone else is advocating back. So it's almost we're in a beat down situation where I am really doing my best to just put push my thinking forward, my thoughts and what I believe perhaps might be the right way to go, for example, or the best course of action or the best decision. And so I'm really just advocating my position would be in a space of debate. And the other thing that I will also say, it's talking at someone. Right. When I'm debating my position, I'm not necessarily listening and staying present to the conversation, Vince. I'm just sitting here pushing forward my own thinking. So I'm going to pause before we move on kind of to that next type of interaction just to see what are your thoughts. And did you want to add anything else to that?

Yeah. So what I heard was you described debate as two opposing positions typically. And when you're in that debate mode, it's very difficult to hear the other perspective because you're so busy and so focused advocating your point of view. And there are times where there's a place for that. But when you're trying to have a quality relationship and quality outcomes that may or may not lend itself to the best possible outcome. That was your description of debate.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that it's really important that we recognize when we find ourselves in that space going back to a quality relationship. If I'm in front of a group for the first time and I'm giving a presentation and I'm really kind of giving some evidence and someone trying, you know, to really demonstrate why I believe we need to take this particular course of action. If I'm standing up there, right, and I'm offering my perspective, a lot of times I feel like the questions are coming from a space where the other person's advocating their side. And I think sometimes I can, that that debate can also feel like one person's defending, I'm defending my position and really kind of counter punching in this type of an interaction. So it also can be coming from that space of defense. And we've always said defending is losing. And so once you find yourself in that spot, now we're just kind of slugging it out. And I think, you know, if you think about it, you can feel in a debate sometimes this heightened sense of energy as well in a conversation. So that's really that first big interaction that we're going to be discussing is debate. The second one you mentioned was discussion. And discussion is where you really create a space to pull apart a conversation, to really talk about the different aspects of it. Where I'm asking you, Vince, okay, you suggested this particular course of action. You know, what does that really look like? What are these pieces and components mean? I would also say in a discussion, many times it's around a table and it could be maybe just one or two people offering their thinking. So a lot of times I've been in thousands and thousands of meetings and I've just watched people and they say, well, we have a roundtable discussion. And what I noticed was it means that one or two people talk about a certain. They're pulling apart this concept or this desired course of action. But what is happening is one or two voices are getting in the room, or one or two voices are, how can we say, the only voices that you hear in the conversation. And so they're really dominating the conversation. So sometimes in a discussion we need to be careful. It's not necessarily getting all the voices in the room. And sometimes it is creating individual meaning while they're pulling apart and trying to understand this course of action. So that is definitely a distinction between debate and discussion. So I'm going to pause, Vince, just to invite you back in kind of. What are you hearing? Really trying to make sure that I'm, I'm articulating a difference between those two.

Yeah. So, you know, I'm a very simple guy. So what my takeaway is debate is advocating a position and you kind of fighting and tussle one another. And then discussion offers an opportunity. It's a different space where Points of views are being put on the table. I may not accept your point of view or agree with your point of view, but I am at least listening or beginning to understand that there are different voices around the table. Not acceptance, but opportunity, as you're pulling diametrically opposed issues apart.

Sure, Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think in debate, many times, you know, people are. They're not listening to understand, they're listening to respond. And so as you pivot and you feel that my invitation is how can we move it from debate, which in many times can be destructive to developing professional relationships and really developing that collaborative environment that we need, especially in this virtual environment, I can't say, hey, Vince, man, I really want to explain something else to you. As we're walking down the hall this many times, this is all we have. So how can we be intentional about that? So when we find ourselves in debate, how can we shift out of that space to a different one? Because ultimately, what we want to get to is that third one she laid on the table, Vince, which is a conversation. And those types of conversations are different. In a conversation, we are in communication with everyone on our team. We are creating a space for all voices to come into the room for that conversation. And we're also really focused on developing a common understanding. So not only do I hear your perspective, Vince, as you lay it on the table, whether I agree or not. Right. Because that's the ideal. We're inviting all perspectives on the table. But the other piece is that I'm listening to understand. I'm using questions to seek to really surface your thinking so I can really wrap my brain around it and understand where you're coming from. So that learning conversation is really the ideal space that we're moving towards so we can get all voices in the room and we can really begin to develop a common understanding of the issues that we're discussing. So, Vince, how did I do in laying those three out? What are your thoughts?

Yeah, so what I'm capturing in the very end, in conversations is you're inviting other points of view into the conversation. And if you can hear those different points of view, then you're able to get the desired result, desired outcome. So my recap debate is you're at odds and you can't hear one another discussion. There's at least an opportunity to lay different points of views on the table, but not concurrence or active listening. And conversation is an invitation for different points of view that welcomes different perspectives that hopefully get you to a desired outcome. Yeah, that Was my capture.

Absolutely. And I appreciate that because when we go back to talk is cheat. And how can we truly use intentional conversations to develop those quality professional relationships? I'm not naming names, Vince, but I'm just saying I've been working and engaging with senior leaders across the country for many years and sometimes they say, you know what Colleen, come in and watch my meetings. I'm creating this collaborative environment and you know what, we can debate anything, right? So I go in and I listen and I watch and I just observe. And many times I don't think people realize when they shift into that debate, many people don't engage anymore, right. They just kind of pull back, they're less engaged and no longer offering their perspective. So once again, if we really want to develop a high performing team, a team where everyone feels comfortable sharing their opinions and perspectives, where we can welcome diverse opinions and perspectives and people feel included, it's creating an intentional conversation. So where people can have that. Otherwise there might be a discussion with one or two people might be debating, but then you might make that decision. And Vince, I'm sitting over there at the other side of that conference table at the other end going, alright, I didn't get an opportunity to voice my perspective, but he's rolling forward with that. I guess that'll do. Different feeling in the team and different type of relationship is developed if I don't even feel like you gave me the space to offer my thinking, right?

So Colleen, the only thing I'll add to that, as you talk, just sitting as a leader, you know, you also have to understand your audience. And sometimes you'll walk around the room, you have those extroverts, right? Those loud voices. And you'll also have those introverts who are busy thinking and contemplating while the rest of us are talking. And so to make sure they are able to participate in the conversation, it's very important to actively understand that you must include all of the voices. You must go out and get those introverted opinions. You'll learn a lot from that as well. So outstanding. So listen, I want to shift and ask you another question that's more personal. So now that we talked about these three things and you described them and you laid them out pretty well, can you think of a recent time in your personal interaction with someone, maybe it's your family, a friend, co worker, where you have had to have an interaction. I'd like you to maybe give me a quick example of what that interaction is and then tell me if you believe that interaction was debate, discussion. Or conversation.

Sure, absolutely. And okay, I think I shared in the last meeting, and this, actually, it was an encounter with a stranger. And so I recently took up golf. So I went over to go hit some balls with my girlfriend, and I'm lining up doing my very best, mind you, I've had zero lessons to date. And so I'm, you know, swinging away. And so out of nowhere, this gentleman walks over and he starts giving me unsolicited guidance and advice. And I was like, so here's someone I didn't have a relationship with. And he came over and started to talk at me. Not once did he say, hey, would you mind if I give you a pointer? Because I would have said, no, thank you. He just came over unsolicited and started talking at me. And so here's someone, once again, no relationship, telling me some information of what I needed to do. And I'm going to tell you, I began to debate. No, thank you. Thank you very much. I'm going to get a lesson next week. But the way that it made me feel, I definitely felt like it was in the debate. And also part of that was, even though my responses weren't necessarily advocating my position, the way that it made me feel was just off. And so one of the things that really resonated with me is when you do have a quality professional relationship, talk isn't cheap. Because when you do provide some sort of advice, when it is in that space of having a quality conversation, it feels different. If I was out with you, Vince, and you were like, hey, Colleen, let's hit some balls. Hey, you know what? I've been golfing for years. Would you mind if I just made a suggestion? It feels different. We have a quality relationship, and that is a conversation. You didn't tell me straight out of the gate things that I needed to do to be better. You really set the stage by asking a question. Are you willing to. To listen and then lay some information out there? So just wanted to give an example of. Yep, that interaction was definitely putting me in that space of he was really just talking at me versus having a quality conversation with someone that I have a very intentional relationship with.

You know, that was. Man, that was powerful. I didn't see that coming. But, wow, a great example. As I listened to you do that story, I could take that same feeling. Because the way that we feel really, really creates an environment of the relationships, whether it's personal or professional. And how we feel dictates how we will respond and our ability to at least understand what that Feeling is. And to kind of put it, I know that I'm feeling this is a debateful conversation. I know this is a discussion. I know this is a conversation. The distinction that you were able to give two great examples of one end of the spectrum and the other. So thank you for that. Very, very powerful.

Sure. Absolutely. And I think it's really important, as you mentioned, our response to others. So the second I felt that I could have responded very differently. So I really like that piece. I'll go back to, you know, why is it important for us to recognize the differences between these two spaces and whether it's the once again the debate discussion or a true conversation. Why is that important? And to your point, Vince, they feel different. A. And also they help us. If we're very intentional in developing those types of quality conversations, we enhance the relationships. So our talk is no longer cheap. We are speaking in a way where it's coming from the heart, and we're developing those relationships amongst our team in a collaborative way to. To really produce those desired results. So as we move forward, we've kind of highlighted those three different types of interactions. And I like to move forward to really leading through intentional conversations and looking about it from a leadership standpoint, which is most desirable. So I'd like to really tap in, Vince, to some of your expertise as a leader, and I'd like to ask you, can you describe a conversation where you saw things differently, where you learned another way, a way that really helped you develop these intentional conversations? Because as we mentioned before, self awareness generates change. And sometimes we're going through and we're not even recognizing that we're setting up a debate. Perhaps in a meeting that you've run in the past, we. Or that we're holding a discussion, but we're not truly encouraging all voices to be heard. So I'd love to hear who you can describe a way where maybe you had kind of that aha moment where you're like, oh, okay, I'm not quite sure this is producing the desired results. And then how did you move past that to really get to those everyday leadership conversations?

Yeah. So, you know, my experience as a leader, I'll just track back to. I spent 30 years in the Navy, and I was a commanding officer, and I was responsible for all the men and women, 600 people. And I had very focused and intentional ideas on the things that I want to accomplish as a leader. But what I learned was that often I would run my meetings and we would have discussions. I thought we were having conversations, but you know, I found myself very quick when it was something I felt very passionate about. I had a very clear idea that I wasn't a great listener or different points of view. And so I had the foresight to have be surrounded by two my right hand and my left hand, my executive officer and my command master chief. And we had set a tone to say that anytime that you see me walking off a cliff, you have my feathered permission to come in and grab me by the belt buckle and pull me back. And I had a couple of true conversations with those individuals. They had to come in and sit down and close the door and say, hey, sir, you have this wrong, and I know what your intent is, but that's not going to work. And here's why. I was fortunate that I was humble enough to receive that information and take that introspective look right, one of my T's. And I had to go back and take that information in listen. And I had to recognize when I was in debate mode, when I was in discussion mode, and when I was in conversational mode. And it was much more important because of my leadership role, I had a big voice, and when I spoke, my words had meaning and intent. And if I wanted to get the best out of my people, I had to move very quickly into a conversational methodology so that more voices felt welcomed around my leadership table. It was a humbling experience to have my subordinates come and tell me that I was not doing it quite right. And I'm grateful for that. And I probably because of one or two of those conversations, it really helped me be successful throughout my career. That's a personal example where I had to be humble and invite conversation to my dialogue.

Well, I really appreciate that, Vince, and I think that really, that story demonstrates one of the things that we talk about, you and I, with all of our colleagues and clients when we're working with them, is that your leadership truly is revealed through your conversations. And so it's really through the quality of those, the more we can be very focused and intentional. To your point, am I in debate? How is that going to help me develop these relationships and move forward? Am I in a discussion, or am I truly intentionally developing a collaborative conversation so we can produce the very, very best results? So, ladies and gentlemen, we've come to the end of this podcast, and we'd like to model a practice that, when used, has immediate impact on those you lead and even on your colleagues. As we've been answering these protocols, you've kind of noticed we've Been asking questions as we go through. We hope that you've been following along, writing those down, and hopefully some of the leadership concepts that we've been shared as we go through our podcast today. But what I'd like to model is just a quick checkout with Vince and myself. Anytime we're at the end of a meeting, a conversation, we always like to ask people what really resonated with them most. And once again, I'll go back to self reflection generates change. It's really how can we be very intentional about what we heard and maybe perhaps what we might do differently as a result of this new learning. So Vince, just love to, in our last moments here, just talk to you about kind of what resonated most with you and what might be one thing moving forward you might be differently. Do differently as a result of our conversation today.

Yeah, sure. Thanks, Colin. So for me, what resonated was, you know, I didn't really give a lot of thought historically to the nuance difference between, you know, debate, discussion and conversation of what that means. And so what really stood out to me was having the ability to simply recognize what those different spaces, what mindsets they put you in and what you can achieve, you know, in the conversational space as compared to the debate space. So awareness of the differences and understanding my feeling. Right. You made a very good example of how things make you feel. So if I am self aware of where I feel in that space, then I can get to a better outcome that I desire. And so my takeaway is I hope to be mindful and aware of that and I hope to incorporate more conversational leadership dynamics into, into my communication style. And with that, I'm out.

Awesome. And I appreciate that. And I think for me the biggest thing was really that. And I think through your story, it really generated this learning. For me, it's that difference between reacting and responding. You know, when you have some trusted colleagues that pulled you back and said, hey skipper, I'm really thinking that maybe that might not have been the best way to go. And this is why you in that moment chose not to respond out of a sense of emotion and jump down their throat, but you chose to think about it, to reflect and sorry, not to react and jump down their throat to think about it and reflect and then respond from a different space. So I think that's probably the big thing that's resonating with me is the difference between reacting and responding. And I'm out.

Well, folks, this is the end of our time. So behalf of myself, Vince Starks, and Colleen Sullivan. We hope that you enjoyed spending a few minutes with us, and with that, we'll see you at the next episode. Sincerest thanks for listening to this episode of the Everyday Leadership Conversations podcast. The Jorgensen Learning center offers a variety of programs for individuals and organizations to enhance their communication and leadership skills. To find out more more about programs and upcoming webinars, check out our Events page at gojlc. Com.