The Impact of NOT Giving Feedback

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Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining us here at JLC Media. This is one of our weekly podcasts and the whole intention of this is to talk about feedback, how to use feedback effectively in a leadership position, or how to receive it if you are in a position where you need to hear somebody else's thoughts. Our previous podcasts have been more about that and we're very grateful you're here because today we're going to talk about the absence of feedback and the impact that that can have on a team or on a system. So with that said, I think you're really going to enjoy this. We're going to ask each of our participants to tell us a little bit about a situation they may have been in that was complicated because one of the people in the system and they're on their team working with them, was just not pulling their weight, didn't show up on time, didn't hit expectations, failed to accomplish what was an obvious, obvious outcome for that particular individual. At the end of this, if you enjoy learning about this particular piece, because on the road people ask me about this all the time, what do we do with old Mary or old John? And they're just not doing what they should be doing. And there are some answers to that, but they're not very clean and clear. So expect this particular conversation to have. It will probably poke you a little bit. That's okay. Let's be a little bit uncomfortable, a little bit vulnerable so we can learn. So what are you guys hearing me say we're going to talk about today? Julie, you want to start?

I heard we're going to talk about what happens when there is no feedback and how that impacts those who are going above and beyond and those who are not necessarily meeting up to what was expected.

That's perfectly stated. And I added a little bit earlier with the gang that one of the reasons people leave systems is because there are people in the system just not doing what they should be doing, not meeting expectations, and over time they get treated the same as the person that's killing themselves. And that begins to open a doorway out for that human being when they don't see any distinction between the effort that they're giving and the non effort that someone else might be giving. That's beautiful. Thanks a lot, Joe. Colleen.

Yeah. Just heard you talk about a little bit more about the system. How does it impact the system and really the health of the system? Right. Because that's a great piece of evidence when people are leaving. Right. When you're leaving, people are Leaving an organization, it's a good example of perhaps why are they leaving? They don't feel connected, they don't feel valued.

Value, beautiful. Not connected, not valued. And you really now that People leave systems all the time. And even in exit interviews, unless it's pretty safe, they don't really say why it is that they're leaving. The literature keeps rebounding year and decade after decade that the boss really matters. Whoever that person is that they report to, whoever is. Their direct report has more to do with them leaving than anything else. It can be my, they say it's money, it's, you know, new experiences, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, those things matter. But the one variable that continues to surface decade after decade is that relationship with that person who is viewed as their direct report. Thank you. Thank you. Vincent, what are you hearing in addition.

To what my colleague said? You mentioned a space of vulnerability. I thought that it's going to be a great opportunity to expose, even as a leader, being in that position of vulnerability to expose, so we can learn again. Just please talk about when it doesn't go quite right and have an opportunity to talk about some things that we could do to make it better.

Okay, that's really brilliant. And let me add on to that one of the things that I did as a leader as I was very young, in my early 30s, as a leader of about 200 people, most of them were older than me. Okay. And I'm in a place where I didn't want to talk to that 60 year old person about his performance. I mean, come on, could be my dad. I don't really think I want to talk to him about his ineffective performance. It made me very anxious. So what I did is I kicked that can down the road and hoped that maybe he would retire or find another job somewhere else. So I didn't even confront the situation. I backed away from it. So as we're thinking right now, and those of you that are listening, I'm wondering, have you ever been in that situation? You know, somebody's causing drama, somebody's missing deadlines, they're not performing to expectation. And you know it. You know it and you're going, ah, I'm not sure I want to have that conversation with that person. This is a wonderful setup for what I think could be a really impactful conversation for those of you that are listening, certainly for me. So I'd like you to pick an example for me, without naming names, of a situation you have personally been in, where somebody was not, quote, pulling their own weight End quote. Tell us a little bit about that situation and how that situation affected you as somebody trying to work and do well in the system. Who'd like to go first?

Okay, so I'm at the top of the screen. From my perspective, I'll go first. So, yeah, I had earlier in my leadership experience, I had two great leaders, different levels of experience. And so I had leader, a who I thought was prepared to work under me and a part of the organization that took care of people. That role was a people focused position. And I had a second role that was more program specific leadership components. So I took the very senior person. I said, you're a senior. I think you have more experience. I want to put you in charge of the people. And this leader did not want that role and that responsibility. So I allowed that senior person to make the decision and manage programs. I took the junior person and put that person in charge of people over a period of time. People are our most important commodity, and people in those relationships are what really makes a difference in the workforce. And so the person that was managing the people was having a greater impact on organization than the person was managing programs. And when it was time to evaluate that performance and to reward that performance, the person had the people component. I evaluated their performance to a higher degree and standard than I did the problem. The person had programs, and boy, did the rubber hit the road. That person felt that I had treated them very unfairly. They felt that they were senior. They felt that they had the rights and all the privileges of their seniority.

And.

And they felt that they were done an incredible disjustice. And it caused quite a bit of turmoil in the organization. That would be my story where I thought I was doing the right thing. I tried to support the efforts of the employees and the staff, but the end result did not turn out the way that I thought that it would.

Wow, that is a really good story. So I'm going to ask your colleagues to react to that a little bit and respond, react and respond. What's your first reaction? And how would you respond to Vince if you were actually working with him when he was in that leadership space? How would you react first?

Well, my reaction, I think, is just because you're senior or you're older or you've been there longer, so what. We appreciate the value you bring and the information, institutional information that you have. However, if you're just showing up every day checking a box and you're not engaged and you're not really, really focused on what it is you're trying to accomplish, then you're just going through the, you know, the exercises without actually truly, to Vince's point, caring. Right. And so that was my first reaction. It's like, dude, if you're not pulling your weight or if you're just checking a box and getting it done, that's one way to show up. But it sounds like this other gentleman showed up in a very, very different way. And so I guess when you talk about how would I respond, because that was just my initial reaction, it's I guess, you know, asking some of those questions to perhaps that senior person to try and understand and get their thinking about how they're showing up every day to work and perhaps provide them with some feedback in a different way.

So I really like that. I'm going to let Vince play with that. Then I'm going to go to Julie on react and respond. So I used to make decisions. I'd think about things, I think about work all the time. And I would be driving, going, riding, whatever I'm doing, thinking, thinking and make a decision. In my earlier days as a leader, I did not always close that loop very well. I did not always ask them what they thought or how will this fit your capabilities and the things that you bring to the table right now. So with that said, Vince, what did you learn in dealing with this in that environment?

Yeah, so it's exactly what you just said, Ray. I didn't close the loop very well. You know, I was at the beginning of the forefront of my leadership experience and managing people within the system. So, you know, I really looking back and reflecting, I could have done a better job at closing a loop and ensuring that there was a common understanding between me and that senior member. In terms of the decision that you're making. Here is how I see those impact, the impacts of this decision, that choice. Are you okay with that and what do you have as an expectation as we move forward? So if I done a better job setting that out up front, I thought I did. I thought there was a clear understanding, but I did not close the loop. And so that's just some things I learned and I got better as a result of that. But it was certainly a painful lesson.

Yeah, I think sometimes those painful lessons stay with us in a more vivid way than some of the other lessons that we learn. Once again, ladies and gentlemen that are listening, notice the level of transparency and vulnerability among this team. This is what we are working toward all the time with the clients that we have. How do we get a space this open where we can tell a story and say, didn't go the way I wanted to. And this is what I did. I reacted to the situation and used some good thinking. And I would have responded differently once I learned more. Have a little more time in the seat, Vince. That was really wonderful reaction and response there, Joles.

Even after you close the loop. My reaction and response is to follow up the instant you know something's not going the way that you expected and to get really clear, is it they can't or they won't? Because a lot of times, even though people want to do it, they don't. They don't realize until they do it that they don't know what they're doing. And so by you coming to them and saying, do I need to provide more training? Do I need to, you know, enhance your personal, practical knowledge? You know, how's it going? What are you learning? You know, those sort of conversations, and you have those more often in the beginning so that you can sort of track how things are going versus waiting till the end and then it's all too late. The momentum is already gone.

Yeah, yeah, Beautiful. That. So you just laid out. The best feedback models are ones that are collaborative. Okay, so, Julie, I'm going to invite you to work with the people doing brain surgery in East Hampton. I bet you can learn this because you're a good learner and you can figure this out. Are you willing to do that? And she says, yes, I need to then immediately build a very close to the conversation we're having right now. Opportunity for feedback. It's almost like sometimes feedback looks like a raft that we shove the project out into the river and it floats away, and we never pull it back into the shore to say, how's the raft doing out there in the river? You know? So those of you that are listening, a collaborative conversation about, here's an expectation, here's a project I would like you to manage, here's a mission I would like you to take on and take care of and accomplish. If we can take that time in that initial conversation to say, let's check in regularly, especially in the first few weeks, to see how things are going, that becomes almost like not really a cure all, but a way to give senior leadership and the two people who are talking an awareness of what's going on. Awareness is critical for leaders. Awareness is critical for teams. What a great story you gave us, Vince. That's kind of. We've really. The time ran by on us on this one, didn't it? So let me Almost stop right here and say, given this conversation in and of itself, what's your greatest takeaway and what would you advise the listeners to do moving forward? What's the takeaway? What resonated most, and what would you advise our listeners to do moving forward? Who'd like to go first?

I'll go. So the takeaway is that.

A lot.

Of times we just assume that the leader knows what they're doing, and the leaders are new too, and we don't.

Know what we're doing.

And so really having that benefit of the doubt, that it's a reciprocal process and that we need you and the leader to work together to be open and honest and go to them when you know that things aren't going well and don't stand around and wait for someone to catch you doing something wrong or, you know, that. That sort of thing. So that would be my takeaway, is that everyone takes responsibility and really be aware. Am I doing what I need to do? And if not, be willing to ask their leader for help.

Let me be transparent. As a young leader, I was making it up as I went along, did my best, but I really like, wow, I've never seen this before. Let me put my big brain on this and decide what to do rather than going, hey, could we talk about this? I didn't see that. I grew up in the old industrial model in leadership, which is if you're the boss, you know more than everybody else. Well, that's, you know, bs, but that's what people thought. So this, I'm making this up as I'm going along, and if I'm not in collaboration, I'm in real trouble. Real, real trouble. Vince, biggest takeaway and recommendation for the listener.

Yes. I think one. One takeaway that I think that is very important is allowing yourself to slow the conversation down and to reflect. You know, we'll have conversations whether you're the employee or you're the leader. And, you know, it's a powerful thing to go back and sit down and just pause and go, what am I thinking and what is my intent? And I think if both sides can really understand that, that allows the conversation to come full circle so that you can develop that shared common understanding of what we want to attain. And now you take away some of that emotion and you can really get to open things up. So my biggest takeaway is the importance of slowing down the conversation. Allow yourself to reflect upon the issue for whatever it is that really helps take the conversation to another place.

One of our principles in our little Company is to go slow in order to go fast. If we don't go slow in the beginning, in the design phase, the responsibility phase, the phase we say, if you take on this mission or this program or this project, this is what success looks like. And we agree on it. And we agree also on what is the evidence of success. Vince, that was magnificent. Colleen, what's your biggest takeaway and advice to the listener?

I think what's resonating with me is the story, right, of the raft. Raft is like feedback. Somebody here was, okay, I'm going to give you this feedback. And I instantly saw this raft going out. And then I'm like, all right, well, what about if there's a slow leak, right? What about if that raft's going on down and it hits a rock and, you know, and so now it sinks. And I think many times that's. As leaders, we'll give the feedback. And then it's like, poof. And we push the raft out. And then we figure, though they're good to go without regularly checking in to attend to my raft, to ensure it's not gonna end up at the bottom of a lake. And so to me, the biggest suggestion is the frequency and the cadence of the closing of the loop. We say we're going to close the loop, have the best intentions, and yet sometimes life takes over and we get caught up in the day to day. So my invitation is to be exceedingly intentional. Once you've set the stage, once you slow down the conversation and set it up, as Vince mentioned, then remember, we need to continue to. To have a cadence of intentional feedback loops and intentional closing of the loop to ensure I'm checking on my friend in the raft to make sure that they're not lost out in the middle of the lake without any guidance.

That's beautiful. Yeah. So Colleen just teed up a beautiful piece for us to close with. So the raft, if the raft is a project or a mission, I've worked in many companies and school districts, organizations where they have standing projects, projects that go from year to year, standing committees that go from year to year, and they have no end, they have no beginning, they have no end. So I'm like, what the hell? So, recommendation to all of you. Call these three people for help and support if you're thinking about this. My recommendation to you, recognize every mission, Every project has a duration, it has a start and a stop. We need to be able to figure out what would success look like and regularly pull that raft back over to the side so we can chat with the people that are managing, leading that project, leading that committee to see how they're doing moving forward. I hope you enjoyed this one today. I did. As always with this gang. They're nothing but wonderful to be with. And please, please, if you would interested in this, this topic, this idea of using feedback as a martial artist might use a move, please give us a ring hop on a discovery call. Discovery calls are free of charge and you get to meet the gang and you get to know and love them like I do. Thank you for being with us. Go to gojlc.com gojlc.com and you'll see more about the work we're doing and the work we intend to do moving forward. Thank you very much for listening and giving up your asset of time. Take care. Sincerest thanks for listening to this episode of the Everyday Leadership Conversations podcast. The Jorgensen Learning center offers a variety of programs for individuals and organizations to enhance their communication and leadership skills. To find out more about programs and upcoming webinars, check out our events page@gojlc.com.