Transitioning Leaders: Income vs Impact

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Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining us at JLC Media. This is a combination podcast and also a YouTube video. You can find us in both places on whatever podcast environment you use and certainly on the YouTube channel. Really grateful that you took some time to be with us. Time is an asset that is probably the biggest currency of this century. It is our fundamental, most important asset. My friends that are with me today, I want to tell you how grateful I am that they took some time to be with the JLC gang to talk about an important feature of movement. We've dealt with COVID all the pandemic stuff. We've been locked down on zooms and all kinds of Google Meets and different kinds of media. Here we are coming to the end, at least it looks like to the end of this particular space where we had to learn lots of different things. So the fact that we've gone through change is not unusual. This section is called or this particular piece is the Essence of Change. I'm so grateful to have two people that I want to first admire them for the service they've given to us as men and women, Colleen and I, taking care of our businesses, our families, when you guys were standing watch for us. And we're so grateful for that. Thank you. And as we do this podcast, you are going to be enriched by the thinking that this man and this woman have put into their next stage of life. I really think you're going to enjoy it. So with that said, my partner in crime is Colleen Sullivan and she can wave at us. There she is. And Colleen has been with me now and she keeps telling me it's like her age, the time we've been together gets longer, but her age gets lower. I don't quite understand that.

Count them in dog years, right? Maybe.

Is that what it is?

Okay, so I'm kind of getting that. And Colleen and I, as you know, if you've been listening to us at all, we're on almost all the podcasts together and she is my long term JLC partner. Moving this forward, the only one who has longer time with me is the president of our company, which is my wife Ruby, which many of you know. So moving forward, I'm going to ask my two compadres to introduce each other. And Becca, why don't you introduce Bob?

Well, thank you, Ray. I was expecting Bob to introduce me first, but here we go.

Well, we can shift it if you would like.

No, that's fine. Here we go. So Captain Bob Fry is a good friend of mine. I think I would Describe him as one of my very best friends from my Navy career. Bob and I met way back in 2005, I think it was. Bob's a health care administrator, medical service care officer, I'm a nurse corps officer. And we met at a professional meeting and Bob asked me to increase my involvement. And so I did at Bob's invitation and encouragement. And Bob has been. I would describe Bob as a man of incredible character and integrity and kindness and a mentor to many. And so he has been that for me and to many others. He has a wife and a daughter and he lives outside of Washington D.C. in Virginia. And he retired about what, a year and a half ago, Bob, something like that. And he is a good friend. How's that?

I think that's excellent. So your turn, Bob.

Thanks, Ray. Thanks, Rebecca. Colleen. So that's good. Great memory. It was at Ache as a healthcare administrator. I saw a nurse co officer with for us, a command pen said that she was the CEO of a facility. And I said, and I come from a family of nurses. So I asked her, I said, what are you doing as a member here and what's the value? And so I did. And that's how our partnership started. But like Rebecca said, she's very. She's a nurse crosser, but she rose to the top of the ranks in Navy medicine and over 30 plus years serving. She retired actually right before I did or a year before I did. Right. And how many years has been two, three years?

I was going to say I think it's three, but so it's.

But she was the nurse, what they call the director of the Navy Nurse Corps, I think the 24th, if I got that correct. And then she also retired as she was a health system CEO as well as a regional CEO. But what I love about her character is that she's just so authentic. Right. She as. Even though she was at the highest ranks in our health system, she was very humble and she's very compassionate and for me, very easy to talk to because we had that relationship outside of work and then over the years got blessed to work with her side by side and then a couple different jobs. And she's just an amazing leader. An amazing leader. An amazing leader. And that's one of her trademark things. When she wants you to remember something, she'll say it three times. And so I asked her about that when we first met, but I think she's more of a healthcare executive. I guess you'd call her a nurse executive, but she her intellect for the business of healthcare is amazing. And to get things done and to help people grow. I mean, she talks about me mentoring, but you've really helped a lot of people grow, including myself, my own leadership role. So I appreciate calling you friend as well.

That's beautiful. I hope you both enjoyed hearing that about one another. And I would say this about both of you. You enabled me to be more and more effective because you gave me scope and perspective that sometimes I just didn't have because I was not really an insider. And oh, my God, I cannot tell you if you're those that are listening. This woman and this man have provided so much support to me and given me so much insight when I would be grappling with systems issues that they wanted me to grapple with. And they allowed me to have more and more context. And sometimes Becca did repeat things three times. So I remember it. So I do remember that. And I think it's a great feature. So let's just do this now. Becca, where are you now? What has happened? What's happened to you since you retired from the military?

So I retired in the summer of 2018, and I purposely took a little bit of time off. I got a RV and I drove around. I drove around. And then the RV had some mechanical problems. So I came home when they, my sister said it's time to come home. So I came home. In December of 18, I joined a board. And then I found that I was bored and routine volunteer work wasn't working for me because sometimes they need a little bit more guidance than their in their processes. And so I was very fortunate that the CEO of the system I was on the board for invited me to work for him as an integration officer. Integration officer, which actually he wrote the job description based on my conversation of the things I like to do. I mean, what better privilege could a person have? So then, then Covid came and he said, oh, you've been in the military. Perhaps you could run this Covid only hospital for us. So I did. And that was actually very much like stepping into the military. They let me have an incident command. I was in charge. I told him he couldn't come visit unless he told me he was coming. I did not run a flag up the flagpole, but it was my place. And then when the first wave of COVID was over, I went back to part time. And then the vaccine came. And he said, would you help us in our region? The governor would like to have regions for vaccine rollout. Would you help with that? And I said, yes. And I have just completed that work. And this week I am back to part time, which is the original intent.

Wow, that is a great story. What are you hearing her say, Bob, and what's resonating with you?

A very successful transition. The part I really liked was taking the time for herself after that distinguished career in the military and then the volunteer piece, because I think we learn that we always got to go, go, go and keep giving back, that she realized that for herself that that wasn't enough and that she wanted to give back more. And then she was recognized for her leadership and her contributions by asking to be the incident commander of the hospital there. That's impressive.

It was. And I can understand being bored on a board and trying to find something where I had a little bit more authority to move an idea or a project forward. So that was really good. I'm going to stay with you for another second. Becca, what is a capability that you brought forward into your new role? And what was something, a change, something you had to learn moving into your new role?

A capability I feel that I brought forward was the organizational talent that I learned in the military and I think perhaps more importantly, the focus on leadership that the military has given us. I'm not sure that other organizations articulate the concept of leadership as much as the military does, which is not to say they don't have leadership. They are not as deliberate about the concept of leadership that the military seems to be, in my opinion. I think that is something I have brought to the organization that I hope is an additional contribution to the organizational piece. But the leadership piece, I think is important when we are always, I feel, preparing the next generation. Right? No matter where you are, you're preparing the next generation. And so as a leader, that's a responsibility.

That's magnificent. The deep leadership research says to all of us that have ever played a leadership role and are playing one now, that the number one capability necessary, and this is after almost 40 years of literature research just on leadership, is the ability for you to model the way so people can see it. Can I watch my leader modeling what I think is necessary to be effective as a leader? That was excellent, Becca. Thank you. Tell me about something you needed to learn about your new role in this new transition space.

Well, a military organization is a governmental organization. Now. I'm. I'm not in a governmental organization. I'm in the private sector. And there are facets of how an organization runs that I've had to understand differently. Even the dynamics between people in an organization and then financing and all those all Those organizational things that are different in a non governmental organization. Finance and organizational regulations and structure, which is a little bit different. And I've had to open to that. Right. And be kind to myself that, oh, I don't know. Those, those are not my specific responsibility right here. And who is the person who I might go to to learn about that?

Yeah. There's such strength in people listening to you, in my opinion, learning that even the way money is handled, you know, in the. In the military world that you invited me into for a little while, I got to learn from controllers how they did things and how military money was appropriated, where it was put. Bob actually helped me with that directly. Where does the money for this particular M code come from? How do we access it? Blah, blah, blah. So he was magnificent in that. But your statements about leadership in the military is very clear. And we were directly taught how to do it and how we were expected to behave as leaders. I think that's very powerful. And as I shift into a new role, a new leadership role, I needed to learn other things about the system. My fundamental capability to lead stayed with me. And I think those listening should be able to recognize you are bringing a wonderful set of attributes about service and leadership to your next place of business. That's magnificent, Becca. Thank you. Bob, tell me something that resonated with you, but then I want to know your story too. What resonated with you as you were listening to Becca talk about what she learned and also what she brought forward to the new space?

I think the we talk a lot between ourselves over the years, but I think she just validated another case of what the American College of Healthcare Executives talk about. As you prepare to transition, these are some of the things you need to think about finance. I smile about the finance piece because it does a lot of us struggle. That's probably the lowest score on the Board of Governors exam is finance, because that's a unique skill set. But understanding how the money flows and especially in private sector, how that revenue is generated and attributed to different service lines is so, so critical. But I think the other piece was the. I was waiting for to say the leadership development. Right. We talk about leadership in the Navy, Leadership in the Navy, but I think we've shifted. At least as I was transitioning. We did a leadership development plan for Navy medicine together. I'm not getting sentimental. I think it's just allergies.

I can get emotional about the plan too, but that's fine.

So that's what resonated with me. And I just Think about the times we've worked together. And I can just see her there standing in front of the folks, inspiring them to make a difference.

I'll tell you, in response to what you just said, there are certain people that I gravitate toward. They are people that are interested in personal development. They are people that want to get better. And I love some work unfolding from Simon Sinek right now, who talks about finite games and infinite games. Personal mastery is an infinite game. I'm constantly trying to do this, but today, as I prepared to be on this podcast, I thought about what I did last time, what I want to do differently and how to enhance the quality of the podcast for those that are listening and also my interactions with you guys. This is a nonstop development, infinite game. It's a nonstop developmental process. Becca, you modeled that to me constantly. Bob, you two, Ray, tell me about this. I watched you do this. Tell me how you did that. It was just a beautiful set of provocations from you guys interested in getting better, not being perfect, getting better. And I think that's really a big deal. You guys just offered that beautifully. Bob, tell me about your transition and a little bit in your own words, what have you brought forward to your new life and what are you looking forward to learning?

Great provocation. I think it's. For me, I think I just realized it was time. I think we all realize that you have to take the uniform off for one last time. And I think, like Rebecca, other friends at my peer group said, bob, if you can afford it, take at least six months off, because after 38 years, it's a big transition. And so I did that. And I've actually enjoyed a little bit too much because I'm only working part time now as a consultant. I recently started my own consulting company, Little llc, to help with the funds flow and the revenue, keep it clean. But over the last two years, because one June will be two years, I purposely took time. And this is. I'm going to try to look at the camera so I can talk to the people that are watching this, that are going through this transition, is that I felt a sense of guilt that I should be doing more initially, right? That I felt like I should be applying for jobs. And I had friends call me and said, hey, Bob, I had three friends give me three, three distinct job offers. But to me, and I need people to hear me when I say this, it was more important for me to decide where I wanted to have impact, right where I wanted to have impact than income. Because financially, I Don't have to work. I mean, I enjoy making a difference. So I really thought long and hard about where do I want to make a difference. And it was the leadership development piece and through my roles in the American College of Health Care Executives and just as a leader in the Navy that I wrote my own why or my own mission statement, which is basically as a healthcare executive, I'm committed to developing leaders of character and competence and optimizing systems of care that provide help, healing and hope. And so that for me frames where I want to put my energy and time. And so I've, I did the John Maxwell certification. I know you're familiar with his work. I am last year and I've been really working, going through the books and with on a book club and the two part time jobs I have really came through LinkedIn. So those folks that are looking at transition that say hey, and it's something that I thought, well, I can support and not take a lot of time to do. And so that was, that's been rewarding. I think the challenge for me, one of them is supporting a company that's trying to meet an urgent need for the DOD with contact tracing. And it's different. That's what I struggled with when I did talking to one of the big consulting companies is, hey, I don't want to do the business development. I'll come in and support. I think my concept of business development is we give them the products and services that they need, that they want to keep contracting with us. But now that I've been doing this for several months with this company that's trying to meet this urgent need or this merging need, now it's a matter of reaching out to previous contacts, trying to put the pieces together, how's it unfolding and things like that. And it's much different than being in the Surgeon general staff or in the front office, the senior headquarters staff, to have a conversation with when you're in uniform than it is when you're a contractor.

That is so good. Beautiful. I'm going to ask you, Becca, tell me what resonated with you from Bob. And then I'm going to ask Colleen to kind of do some themes that she's hearing.

So for me, what really resonated for Bob was that commitment to taking some time off and allowing that transition for it is a big, it's a big switch. It's a big switch. One you've worked very hard. And I do think that folks at Bob's, where Bob was working and the things that Bob has been working on it is. It's a lot. And so taking time to really, one, rest and two, reflect on your time and just think about yourself and your family and where you've been and what you wish to do. And so that's one piece that really reflects. And then the other piece is that search for purpose in the rest of one's life and being clear on that. Not just floating through life, but making the decision that I wish to have purpose in my life. And my purpose in life is centered around impact and service and serving other people and helping people in the healthcare system and also helping people individually to achieve what they wish to achieve in their lives. And so that's really central. And then I agree with Bob, the struggle about, what do you think about a consulting role? Which is difficult. I shouldn't say it's difficult. It's awkward. It's not necessarily for everybody. I think it is awkward. And I think some people actually enter that realm without thinking about it fully, and then it's a disappointment. So I think Bob is absolutely right to stick your toe in the water, give it a little feel, maybe learn about it. It might grow, and he will grow it in the direction he wants to grow it because it's his life and his purpose.

Yeah. So I'm really. There's power in that, Becca, that as you reflect. See this. Bob and I have chatted about this before, actually, recently. Reflection is critical. It enables you to avoid reacting and allow you to respond. And I just love that. Out. That was really beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. So, Colleen, what are some themes that you're hearing?

Sure.

Well, I think Rebecca already beautifully tied those all together. I mean, you just did a magnificent job. I heard very similar. I heard this sense and importance of reflection, and that has been a theme not only with Rebecca and Bob, but also on our previous podcast as well, with Forrest Faison and Terry Moulton. Let's pause because taking off, I can't even imagine that uniform for the last time, as you mentioned, Bob, let's just pause and really reflect. Reflection was a big, big piece. The second big piece that resonated with me was that both of you felt that the military did an excellent job in focusing on leadership development and making that a priority. So as you pivoted outbound to make your next steps, you had a lot of capabilities that you could bring forward because of that deliberate focus on leadership development. So that was the second big theme. And finally the third one, and I'll just reiterate what Bob mentioned, was this Sense of impact versus income. And what do I really want my focus to be? And I think that that was beautifully stated. And, Rebecca, to your point, you know what? Let's focus on purpose. Because really, now we've had this entire career of focusing on service. I can't imagine all of a sudden it's easy to pivot your mindset to something different. So how can we really think about it very intentionally to ensure that time is the biggest asset, as you mentioned, Ray, how can I ensure that I am using the time that I have in a way that will have the most impact?

Yes. One of the things that I did do when the pandemic hit, when the mayor of D.C. asked for volunteers, I joined their medical reserve corps. So for the last year, since March of last year, I've been going to the. To the district to do COVID testing. And then now we've pivoted towards the vaccination of the population. And so when I met the team, there is a cadre of volunteers and contractors and National Guard and service members. And we talk about backgrounds and they said. Talked about retiring, and they said, what do you miss? And again, I think it's the. It's the allergies.

Are you tearing up again? Come on, Bob.

I said I miss the privilege of leadership. I miss the privilege of leadership. And so. But I didn't want to just rush back into something just to make income, all right? I really wanted to have impact. And so I just. And I have my cadre of people that I coach and mentor still are still in uniform. So it's been a good, good transition. You know, when I went on deployment, and I think the last piece I left out, and I really want to talk to the folks that are in uniform, and as you struggle to make rank before you get out is that. Make sure you're taking care of the family along the journey, wherever you're at, because you want them in that front row at your retirement ceremony, and you want them after you take that uniform off. I remember when I was going on deployment a few years ago, and my daughter. We have one daughter, as Rebecca mentioned, why, we've been married a long time. She was probably glad for me to go on the deployment, but my daughter was like, dad, you're gonna miss my 13th birthday and mom's 50th. Why would you do that? You know? So we had a candid conversation about service and sacrifice for our great nation in this world.

So that is a magnificent message to say to the CNO secretary. Anybody that's Coming to the close of their career. Don't miss the things that you have made significant and important in your life. And since you already gave a recommendation, moving forward, and that's how I was going to do this. If you were talking to Secretary of the Navy to a nurse in Beaufort, what is one thing you would say to them as they come to the conclusion of their active duty military career? So, Becca, what's one thing you would say to either SECNAV or to that nurse leaving Beaufort? What's one thing you would say to them looking forward to retirement?

I feel that you do have to purposely prepare. It is a window of time. You generally know. You generally know a year, six months. And I understand you might not really start preparing until the six month mark. You must prepare. I have, I'm sure Bob is the same. I have observed some people who did not take the time to prepare because they were so busy. And they are, especially at the senior level, they are very important jobs, Very important jobs. And yet you are your most important asset. So you have to prepare for your next step in whatever fashion.

That's fantastic. Yeah, that's fantastic, Becca. Thank you. Well, we are coming to the end of our podcast from a time standpoint, but this is a part that Colleen and I have designed into each podcast that we both love. And you both know what a checkout looks like. So when you get done talking, just say, I'm out. And that tells us our ritual. We practice at the end. And I'm going to let Colleen start and you guys can actually either add your own or build, enhance whatever Colleen says. And Colleen, I really want to know this from you. What was absolutely the best thing about this conversation and why?

I think the best thing about this conversation for me was just to listen to each one of these two senior leaders that I have such a tremendous amount of respect for. Listen to them talk about the reflection period. I mean, I love hearing about the rv because I got to tell you, that is one thing that I have.

Always wanted to do.

So that was really surprising to me. I really appreciate that. But listening from your perspective and hearing you talk about those things that you brought forward to, to your new role, I am so fortunate to have worked with both of you very briefly while you were wearing the uniform and then briefly while you were out outside of military, and just seeing each one of you bring forward that amazing leadership capabilities has been an honor. So I love the RV and the visual that you had, Bob, about taking off the uniform for the last time. It really touched my Heart. And I'm out.

That's beautiful. Who'd like to go?

Rebecca, do you want to go first?

All right. For me, I will share with you. Ray and Bob knows I was pretty nervous about doing this because it is about opening up and I am tearing up for whatever reason. I do think any opportunity that you have to pause and reflect is important always. And we tend especially, I think perhaps military types. I'm not sure we tend to work right. We're workers. Actually had a conversation with my sister today. We are wired to work. That's what we do. We're wired to work, and it is important. And today was a moment where you can stop and you think and you reflect and you reflect on the many blessings and goodness and how you cherish relationships and how you cherish the opportunity to think about your life or someone else's life and how you're looking forward and how much there is out there to explore and to have impact. Right. To have purpose and impact and amount.

That's just beautiful. Thank you, Bob.

Yeah, it's great conversation. Ray. Really didn't get my chance to say going forward. You know, I really think the piece and I touched on it the last time we chatted on here is really when you take time to pause and think about it, if something's not right with you, it's okay to talk about it. And not necessarily with your friends or your colleagues, but behavioral health or mental health professionals. You know, they have a campaign every year for the 22 veteran suicide that they try to reduce. Right. And I think it really starts with the conversation. That's why I'm such big fans of the both of you and your team and your effort is that it's okay to talk about it. It's okay to talk about it. And I think doing these and partner with an old friend like Rebecca, if it helps resonate with one person, it was worth my time and effort to be here today. So in closing the my checkout, it was really. Hopefully people heard what we had to say and that it really. Two different perspectives from service, two different roles in the military, but very similar transitions. Right. Taking that time for yourself. And I'm out.

So I cannot tell you how grateful I am that you guys were here. And to say that I love you both is an understatement. I've come to respect and admire you beyond belief, and it's a privilege to be in the room with you. I had a thought a while ago when you were talking, Rebecca, about humility. And I think you both know, I spent a little time with Jim Mattis when he was there and his favorite book that he kept telling people to look at was called Humble Leadership. I still love that book. I still look at it from time to time. Those of you that are listening, I urge you to think about humility and leadership. They do go together. They do go together. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for listening to us here at JLC Media and Everyday Leadership Conversations, which is kind of our whole mantra these days. You can tell how I feel about this gang that's on all three of them. Just wonderful folks. Notice how they listened so intently to one another. They actually built together a disciplined conversation that's all about learning. These are learning conversations. If you want to know more, please hop in and see us gojlc.com or hop into our Everyday Leadership Conversation podcast. We'd love to see you there. There's anything we can do for you, give us a call. Thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful rest of your day.

Sincerest thanks for listening to this episode of the Everyday Leadership Conversations podcast. The Jorgensen Learning center offers a variety of programs for individuals and organizations to enhance their communication and leadership skills. To find out more about programs and upcoming webinars, check out our events page@gojlc.com.