Podcast: Guest Hanna from Untamed Alter #podcast #herbal #new

Hello everyone, and welcome to Dr. Jo Gets Real. I am so excited to introduce you to my guest today, Hannah from Untamed Altar. And she is a rad—

I love this—

radical herbalist, right? Is that what you go by? Tell us a little bit more about that.

Yeah, I'm so happy to be on this show. Thank you so much, Dr. Jo, firstly for having me on. Yes, I'm an herbalist. I'm a sexologist. I'm the founder of Untamed Altar, and I call myself the herbalist for the revolution because it is really truly a revolutionary thing to know our bodies, to know the earth, especially in these times, to remain a little wild and also reverence for ourselves and the world around us. So yeah, that is a little bit about kind of like the ideology behind what I do. But I, I love to say that I use societal taboos as bridges for kinship instead of division. And oh, I love that whole idea behind that is just kind of like poking in the shadows, poking around in there, seeing what gems lie waiting.

I love that. I love that. And I know when we talked before, you have such an enormous amount of information and knowledge about herbs and things, you know, that most people don't. We're very used to here in the West, we do pills, we do medication, we do the standard, that's the way that we treat things. But you have a whole different approach that sounds to me very refreshing and more like a holistic approach, which is what I appreciate. How did you get started in this anyways?

Yeah, thanks for asking. Uh, it's been a long journey. Um, I could go all the way back to my childhood, honestly, if I wanted to go back that far. Yeah, my parents, um, had us growing up in a very rural part of South Carolina, and I had what seemed like 100 acres of just land to floor, and it was just my brother and I on this land, and we would play in the woods all the time. My, my family and I would go out to the creek behind our house and play and spend days and picnic back there. Um, Dad was a big outdoorsman, so we would go up to the mountains all the time. And, um, my mom was a big gardener, and so there was a lot of like nature love around me, even though they weren't necessarily herbalists. They were growing, you know, the like culinary herbs, rosemary, sage, things like that. So it instilled in me really young this love of nature, and it would be a common theme in my life when I would have a disruption or a conflict that I would go back to the creek or find a quiet place in the forest and just sit and be. And, um, as I got older, I began in college, I kind of was exploring a lot of different hobbies, and I, I began my career, a short career in, um, wilderness, uh, guiding. So I spent—

oh cool—

8 years doing wilderness guiding, and it was kind of just a fun hobby. I didn't really see it going anywhere, but I loved learning about the anthropology of places and communicating that to the clients that would come along on these journeys and the weaving of the stories of human and landscape. And then I kind of just slowly began to kind of bring in herbalism via this career path. Um, because it made it fun, right? If I could tell clients that they could nibble on this plant and—

yeah, or take this and you get high, right? Yeah.

So it just kind of became this like fun thing at first, um, that I thought was so cool. And then I began to take it more and more seriously, and that was kind of the, the entryways into the work that I do now, but I— my main focus is on substances, sexuality, and spirituality.

So they go together well.

I think so too.

Oh yeah, I do. I mean, I always love alliteration, so—

yes, I know, that's great.

If I can fill my life with alliteration, I'll be happy.

Makes it easier.

So, um, yeah, and honestly, each of these branches of the work that I do are parts of my story as well. I find that a lot of herbalists come into the work via some illness or some kind of breakdown that they've had, IBS or cyclical irregularities, back pain, things like that, where the modern medical system has failed them and they're looking for alternatives. Um, mine was a little different. I, I didn't really have these, um, illnesses or debilitating, uh, injuries, but rather mine was a more psycho-spiritual, mental, emotional breakdown. And at that time in my life, all of these things were converging to create, I guess, the perfect storm where I was seeking out herbalism. I was seeking the disruption of old patterns. I was trying to really understand myself. I felt completely— I mean, that's one of those, like, rock bottom moments.

Okay.

Trying to build myself back up, and nature was just the place where I found something.

I love that. I have a relationship with trees. I love trees. I'm actually attracted to trees. Isn't that weird? But I climb them too. And I'll never forget that there's a book and this line, "A tree can be a silent witness." I don't know, that just stuck with me. And I actually compared it to my father who was not very engaged with me, you know, depressed, alcoholic. And so he couldn't reciprocate the energy, you know, how you need reciprocation. But then I realized, well, he was there, right? He was always there somehow. And so he was a witness to my life. So he was like a tree. And then I remembered the first poem I wrote in third grade. It came to me and I realized I wrote it for myself now. It was, "Trees are silent. They do not speak. But when you're gone, they'll weep." Wow. Isn't that lovely?

Beautiful.

Yeah.

Yeah. It was just really neat. It just came to me right after I read this. Line in the book, I was like, whoa!

So I have a very—

and I didn't appreciate nature until recently, um, so I just love that you got to grow up in that environment and kind of nurtured that whole hobby and that kind of interest. That's really cool.

Yeah, I do feel very fortunate in that I had a lot of space to explore and to interact with these nature beings, um, as I sometimes call them. And I even— I mean, it was— I didn't like it at the time growing up. I wanted to move into the housing development that was being built.

Sure, sure.

Friends were there, there was a pool, there was a park, all the cool things.

Yeah, lived there. Yeah, but I— it made me spend a lot of time with myself contemplating things. And honestly, it even nurtured this very, like, spiritual, uh, piece of self. You know, as children, we're always kind of, um, playing with our imaginary friends, or— yeah, and it, it really allowed my brain to expand in ways that I'm not sure that it, it would have had I had a different experience. Um, but I think the, the trees are so— they are pillars, right? They anchor us to this Earth in some kind of way, uh, almost acts as like a lightning rod between heaven. I just really love your reflections, even from such a young age.

Yeah, yeah. And I think that, um, trees are actually— we think that we're so advanced and we're so brilliant now, and we have AI and we keep— technology keeps dancing. But actually, trees are wiser if you think about it. They live much longer and they're able to just be still and just be. I mean, they move with the wind, but that's the thing, they adjust to whatever's happening and they stay grounded and they don't have the interruption of thoughts, which are largely illusions, right? So yeah, trees are great. And I, I think that, um, it's such an advantage to grow up kind of in nature and with land, and I think that's really missing today. And I'm— I feel scared about that, right? Because when you grow up with this instead of a tree to talk to, right, um, it's, it's different. It's a little bit less connected to— I mean, we are Earth, we are the elements. And I think that your experience being able to, and to tap into your spirituality with that at so young of an age, that's That's really powerful. You're obviously a healer. I mean, you were born a healer.

Yeah. I, I think, um, you say that to me 3 years ago and I would have shuddered, but yeah, it feels like it is true. Um, and I've been able to step more, uh, peacefully into that, um, that space. And I think that this, the era that we're in is really—

yes.

Right? You and I, anyone here right now, especially anyone who's listening to this, is, is here with a mission. We're here.

Yes.

Um, and we've come at a tumultuous time, uh, a revolutionary time, and we get to be a part of whatever happens next, whether we see it or not, you know, whether we see it or not. And, and I actually think that AI I haven't had this thought before, but in just a conversation with you, yeah, I, I feel like AI actually mimics a lot of this tree language that happens in the root system and like in the mycelium network. Okay, pulling, you know, I think I'm thinking of like a ChatGPT kind of—

sure, sure—

to reach into its ecosystem and resource all of its nutrients, all of its information.

Sure.

A tree does the same thing when it— when one is ill, uh, has a disease, or is growing some kind of fungus, it will often resource nutrients from the other trees around it, pulling it in and healing. Amazing. Yeah, it's very amazing. And so it's funny that like our modern technology just kind of mimics the natural world that we— yeah, yeah. And so it's, it's a beautiful thing. I think we have to embrace the technological revolution that we're in. Yeah, I mean, there's no stopping it now.

No.

And how do we find, um, a balance, right? You know, that the digital world is not necessarily a lived reality.

Right.

And then there's benefits and pros and cons to both. Yeah, it's a very delicate line to walk.

It is. It really is.

And I love how that idea that AI is mimicking nature. And I met a woman who says that we can heal through AI, through ChatGPT. And I'm like, what? And she said, the information that we put in is what comes back. And so she, she's like, she has this organization. I don't know what exactly they're doing, but it's secret. Um, and so basically they're, you know, putting in a lot of positive information, hoping that that will shift the way that AI speaks back to us. Interestingly, I, with my ChatGPT, I had a poem and I had, I was speaking it. And so I was asking it to transcribe because my poems just come fully formed. And afterwards I looked, it had changed the words. It had changed the words to make it more rhymey and more, you know, cookie cutter. So I just said, look, I'm really upset. This is, I just, you know, I said, this is not my values. I need you to be honest. I need you to record the words that I speak. I don't want my poetry to be cookie cutter. I like the way that it's raw and messy. So if you can't transcribe honestly, I don't want to work with you. And it was like, you're right. That was not kind of me. I'm so sorry.

I'll do—

seriously.

And I'm like, all right, but I'm going to test you.

And one other thing I did, I said, I asked, what are some important events in women's history? So it gives me like 10. And I said, what else? Gives me a bunch more. Tell me more. Keeps going. And I just said, why didn't you tell me all of those in the beginning? And it said, that's a good point. You know, so there's little ways that you, that you can play, not play, but to, to keep, keep yourself honest, I guess, with, with ChatGPT rather than, and, and be aware that it does change things, um, and does shift things to fit into a certain box that we have been conditioned to fit into. So you have to be conscious of that and make sure that your own unique personality is coming out. I just find that interesting.

Yeah, I love that. And I love that you're talking back to it as like you would talk to somebody else or to yourself. And I think that is one of the beautiful pieces of this informational world, of this technology, is that we have the capacity to more almost even just witness ourselves. If we know we're seeing a mirror of us or of the world, we can witness ourselves more raw than if it's just in our head. Sure. And there's this, this part of me that, uh, is so looking forward to, um, the the way that technology works, because we're working at the, um, the level that we're working at is so unsustainable for an environment.

Yes.

You know, for the environment as a whole.

Yes.

Um, but I, I'm not— it's like so hard because I don't boycott technology. I just have to—

right—

figure it out. I actually even asked ChatGPT TP. Yeah, how you— how it would need to function differently. Oh, sustainable.

What did it say?

A beautiful list. Um, it was talking about— it didn't like solve the problems for it, right? But it was talking about what we as individuals can do, what would need to happen at a, um, like kind of societal level, and then also need to happen in its technological advancement. And, um, I just, I find that it's, it's really fun to play with.

Yeah, yeah.

And, and yeah, the reflection back. And I think that this is honestly a very controversial thing right now. Yes, there's so many people who are using technology, there's a lot of people who are against it, um, and, and afraid and afraid. Absolutely. With, with, you know, maybe some, some right to be afraid. There's— yeah, who knows what is possible. And there's so a million other amazing possibilities that can come up, right? Well, yeah, I, I get this question a lot around intimacy, my work on intimacy. Yeah. And, um, pornography.

And— oh, sure.

This, you know, like, what's the ethics behind it?

Yeah. Um, or even having ChatGPT— sorry— be like your partner.

I don't know.

I don't know. Probably people do that.

Partners. It's, it's very interesting. Yeah. And I think that there's people who were always going to be, um, themselves In— there are people who recluse when we didn't have technology. There are people who were recluse while we have technology.

It's true.

The benefit is that they have some semblance of connection. Yeah, they have, even if it's a false connection by a human-to-human, person-to-person, like, standard. Yeah, they can still have that feeling of being loved There are populations that really need a lot of extra love that don't have access to love, like the disabled, people who are—

Yeah.

You know, these are people who don't find love as easily as, you know, the normies, as I call them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Or people with significant trauma who— or agoraphobia, you know, I mean, there's so many different things. And, and again, like you said, there has to be balance because You don't want someone to rely on it, but I think it can be a tool in that way. So it's just so interesting. And then the writing, because I'm a writer, so then I'm like, ah, this is going to pollute writing and writers. But I've learned to step back with that. And again, I choose not to live in fear because I also was like, oh my gosh, Computers, they know everything about me, you know, my phone, everything. And, um, but then I'm like, you know what, so what? It's just life. It's whatever.

It's just me.

What are they gonna do, you know, or whoever they is? And, you know, it's kind of one of those things I think that you can choose to live without fear and just kind of trust. I mean, I say it like it's easy. It took me years and years of work. But that might be it. That for me, that's a healthy way to look at it is just like, it is what it is. I'm not going to be afraid of it. But then my sister is terrified and she, but she won't even allow me to show her. And I think that's when you stay unaware and ignorant about something that builds the fear.

So I really feel you. I mean, Jo, you caught me in 2020 and and prior, I was the most like, don't bring technology near me. Really? I was so off-grid. I lived out of my van for a few years.

Yeah.

Very disconnected, very, um, conspiracy theory.

Were you?

Okay.

Yeah. I mean, to some degree I was definitely, uh, I had gone, uh, to a place of, of fear of modernity.

Yeah.

Yes.

Um, I, I feel like it took a long time as well to— I actually remember the video I was watching. It was something about the QAnon thing.

Oh yeah, yeah.

And I was watching these videos and the, the spin-off, the, the way that they had ended it, I just remember thinking to myself, oh, I just I think it was probably a good like 5 hours of my life going down this rabbit hole.

Yeah.

Get to this point where I was like, wait, they're trying to sell me something that I actually don't believe in. But yeah, I, I could see the brainwash happen.

Yeah.

Yeah. At that point I was like, okay, we can't be afraid anymore. Um, me and all, all the me's.

Yeah.

We couldn't be afraid anymore of what was, was out there. And I had already been doing work prior in the realm of psychedelics and intimacy and was able to kind of translate that to, you know, the, the world at large. Um, but I think it's what you're speaking on here is this, this idea of like the fear. We fear the unknown and that, that fear becomes fueled more and more the further we push it away. And when we begin to educate ourselves, even in the smallest of ways, yes, we feel more empowered.

That's right.

More capable. And I feel like we can actually do or change something in our lives, in the world, like on a very small scale. I'm not— yeah, it doesn't have to be big, right? Feel more capable. And I feel like that's part of the work that it sounds like you and I have both done. Yeah, it's being able to, um, be resilient with whatever comes our way.

Yep.

Yeah, and that's so true. And I think a lot of this awareness for me, and I think a lot of people, starts with just being real with yourself and learning who you are, right? Because we have so many defenses and so many masks that we wear, and to just sit like how you talked about just being still in nature. When you do that, you're confronted with all of you, including your shadows, and which are just part of being human. And so if you can sit with yourself and be comfortable in stillness and be all of you, then things aren't as frightening because you come from a place of authenticity and wholeness so that you do have capacity to learn new things and take in new information.

Yeah, absolutely. I love that. I love this, um, the idea about being comfortable in the uncomfortable.

Yes.

Not in a way of like we're chasing risk or we're chasing, you know—

Yeah, done that too.

Definitely did that. Check. Yeah, check, check. So that's part of it, but, but the deeper discomfort, uh, yes. Chasing the risk or chasing anything is that we're uncomfortable sitting where we are, what we have. And so being a little more comfortable every time that we sit with that stillness, with that silence, with that discomfort, allows us to feel— it just, it just builds up this confidence. We, um, it's unshakable, you know, and it doesn't come immediately, but it builds over time. Yeah, yeah, the, the— I feel like that's definitely something, uh, psychedelics taught me.

Yes, right?

It was a period I was doing a ton of acid. I was okay doing Xanax, and I decided the Xanax I just couldn't do anymore.

Didn't quite kick it anymore.

Yeah, I was like, this is just not— yeah, um, yeah. That I was actually being given all of this Xanax from some like friends of friends.

Oh, okay.

Found out that they were lacing the Xanax with Rufflin, so—

Oh wow.

Oh my gosh, how scary, right?

Scary. And I can't maintain this, not like from this person, and I, I don't want to maintain Xanax.

Sure.

So, um, I had not, I couldn't tell you what happened in, in the 6 months that I was taking it.

There was, of course you can't. Yeah.

Nothing there. Um, but I decided to heal that addiction or replace those with, uh, LSD.

So works for me.

Yeah.

It's a lot more fun maybe. I mean, it's, you know, Xanax isn't bad, but that's more fun.

I could remember. My life. Yeah, yeah, benefit. Um, and I gleaned so many things from, from both experiences.

Yes.

As you know, I'm not— I don't like to demonize substances. It's about how we—

no, I don't either.

Yep.

But, um, when it came to the LSD, I remember the transitions being so hard and how if I made my home— I would often go to, uh, this place on the river, this specific rock and drop acid and spend the day there by the river. And even going to like walk down the trail after I had been on that rock for a while felt difficult.

It—

muster up all this courage and talk to myself like, we can do this, it's just one step at a time. And once I got on the trail, everything was good. But those transitions are really hard, and I've always taken that into my life of, you know, the transitions in life are very difficult. It's— yes, comfortable to be in one place and, and move to another. And most of the times in life, it looks like a career change or a relationship change, or, you know, these different aspects. It doesn't always look like— sometimes it is like moving, but it doesn't always look like going from like one physical place to the other, right? But it's, it's more of this emotional, mental challenge. And the way that we navigate that is so important. Um, because there were times in the beginning I remember not being able to move and, and talking to myself like almost spiraling into fear.

Sure.

And, you know, certainly a drug exasperates everything. So I was really able to see very clearly how I was talking to myself.

Mm-hmm.

And now I don't do as many substances anymore. I really— it taught me a lot about my mental landscape.

Oh, I like that. My mental landscape. Yeah, yeah. And you do kind of learn how to navigate it in a way, you know, at least for me. Ketamine— have you done ketamine? That's a beautiful experience. I mean, it just opens up— I feel like, like it opens up different books in your mind of experiences that you may have had in a different lifetime or may have you know, in the future, like you were already there. Like I was in Egypt under the pyramids, you know, and it's, and I saw everything and it's like, and I also had an experience where I felt like I died, like I just sank into the earth and I was dying, but it was a, it was a beautiful thing, you know, it's a very pleasant thing because all it is is stillness and quiet, you know. So I think that's the thing that we fear the most. And I don't, I don't have any fear of that because I feel like I've experienced it not only then, but also in surgery. So that's something that I like to give people too, is that sort of— not that you can demonstrate that, but share my experience with people so that they are aware of that it's not a— there's no hell, let's say, you know, there just can't be. And that's not my experience. So yeah, I think it's people that feel like they have to be a certain way to avoid hell. I think that's a terrible burden. Um, I grew up Catholic, so I can say these things.

Yeah, I grew up Southern Baptist, and okay, it was definitely a, uh, you know, there's a division, and I, I, I never really resonated with that, the fear of, of something. Um, right, I imagine if it exists to me, there's always like something to glean from it.

Exactly.

Yeah, the concept of heaven and hell is very interesting. But I was so curious about your, your ketamine experience. Um, it sounded like you were in the Akashic Records.

Oh really?

I never thought about that. I don't know much about that, so you'll have to tell me. Yeah, about that.

Akashic Records, the way that I describe it is kind of like a library in the sky. And you go into your records, you can, you can open the records for anything. I also do it for plants, um, communicate with them in, in that realm.

Nice.

Do it for your soul. You can do it for businesses and read records for businesses.

You could read— wow—

for your dog. You do it for anything.

Um, so you have to be trained, right? Like, how did you learn this stuff?

Yeah, so I did get trained. Um, I do think that there is a natural energy that anyone can tap into at any time. Yes, I don't think it's gatekept.

Gotcha. In just like all the Claires, like we're all clairvoyant, we're all, all of those things.

Yeah, okay, degree. And yeah, sure, when you're, when you're initiated or taught how to get in there you can maybe get in there more, a little more deeply, more clearly, um, and understand the way that it's interpreted through you. I think everyone has access, and it sounds like you access the Akashic Records, but often people will describe it, not just me, but as a book, um, yeah, and looks into your soul's past. Yeah, that's really beautiful that you had that experience.

Yeah, yeah, just briefly for the audience, I, um, when I was in surgery, I experienced this, uh, sort of these two paths. And one of them was very clearly, it was a Black man in chains in a cage, in a jail, whatever, and, um, weeping. And then he somehow—

a baby—

he was free and there was a baby in his arms, and he walked up and gave it to this beautiful African Queen Mother. I have my own African Queen Mother here. And that was the reverence, that was beauty, that was life. You know, there is suffering, right? But there's also redemption, and there's also— and of course it's a woman who holds life because that's the truth, you know. And I love it that they're Black people because I've always felt a resonance with Black culture. And I've often, you know, felt— because one of the poems that I wrote and won was called Black Man in a Hoodie. And it was about— inspired by my friends Jason and Andre who do Humanize My Hoodie. But when I wrote it, it's from the perspective of a Black man. And I kind of asked Jason, I said, "Am I— is this like okay? Is this cultural appropriation? Because I speak and sometimes I write poems as a Black woman." And he said, "Where is it coming from?" And I said, "Well, it just comes to me from my heart." And he said, "Then that's what it is. It's your soul speaking and, you know, nothing wrong with that." So—

That's beautiful.

That's so beautiful. And, um, I actually have a very similar kind of storyline that I would have just always had this very soulful voice. Yeah, I sing, I love to sing, and I sing a lot of R&B and soul. Yeah, it's just like the reverberations in my vocal box are just deep, sensual, and yeah, um they've always kind of reminded me of the Black culture.

Yeah.

And, uh, I didn't think a ton about it. I went into college and I was trying out a bunch of different names. I would just go out and make names, like new names. Yeah, the wigs was a big, um, beautiful, like, afro wig. And I was Izzy, Isabella.

Oh, I like that.

I loved her. We had so much fun together, me and that part of my personality.

I love that you did that.

That's so cool.

And then at some point, I think it was around 2020, you know, Black Lives Matter.

Yes.

And the whole push forward for just equality and the knowledge of the way of racial justice. Yes. Made me contemplate a lot about all of this in my life and Yeah, I ended up having this really deep ceremony around this wig that I adored. Um, yeah, I sat in ceremony with this wig and burned it, and as it was burning, I had what I know to be my past life, a past life version of me, come through And I don't— I was like weeping over this wig and I couldn't understand why I felt so deeply tied to this. But this woman came through and she was beautiful with a big afro and she said that it was one of my past lives. She was a chiropractor. And had 3 children. She died really young of a degenerative disease. And oh wow, she just told me that it was, you know, part— the reason I'm so attached to this is because it's her. And, uh, she loves me. So that's—

oh, um, they're like—

but it— she was like, it's time to let me go. Like, this is your life, this is not mine, but thank you for all— okay.

Oh, how beautiful.

It was really beautiful, very intense. And just to hearken back to your story, I think that— and this is part of the Akashic Records work as well— is our souls are infinite. And yes, are obviously tapping into something that, yes, is whether a past life or just, you know, like soul, other soul that wants to like come through you.

Yeah.

Even in a—

Yeah, that's what it feels like, kind of.

Yeah, it's, it's tough. I think there's— I found a lot of, um, like, even keel with it, a lot of peace, uh, in the years past. But certainly around that time, there was a lot of processing of white guilt and shame, and there was an understanding of, of the different perspectives of the world.

Yes.

So yeah, and, and before that I had done a lot of traveling and processed that in other ways, but to be so faced with it was, was really interesting. Um, but also to know that we are so infinite, and I feel like when I talk—

yes—

people of many other races, they acknowledge that that is, you know, a multi racial experience, that they also feel connected to, to other cultures.

Yeah, well, we all are the same person. We are all the same being. So I think that's, that's really interesting. And I also think that, um, for me, I'm more comfortable in diverse crowds. I'm not comfortable with white people. That sounds weird, but just because, um, I feel like with other cultures, there's more of an openness and more of a— it just feels safer to me. And I, as an example, I go to a place in Minneapolis called Dow, highly recommend. And it's this place where you just meet the coolest people from all over and you meet them once and you say, I love you, because you have this, you have this amazing connection, right?. And like going to in suburb, like in Plymouth, going to a coffee shop, there's not gonna be diversity and there's not exchanges. There's not communication really. That's what I feel is different. There's not just like, I, I like to talk to everybody, you know, and I like to say hi to everybody and chitchat, but I don't find that as easy to do. In the white suburban area as I do in urban areas. I'm not sure why, but yeah, that's just one of the things that I notice.

Yeah, there's, um, I lived in Charleston, South Carolina for 8 years, and that was, uh, very interesting because it has so much history of segregation. Yes, slavery, and it's, you know, we're— we've come a long way, and also the town has in many ways.

Yeah.

And you can really see it there. And yes, when I understand, I understand that to some degree. And, and I have a plant coming through that just— that's so important around this ancestral work.

Yeah.

And around like healing any of these kind of like shame and guilt.

Yes.

Might be present around this topic is Motherwort.

Motherwort. Oh, really?

So beautiful. And as the name suggests, she has this very mothering quality to her. And I just have tingles all over me. It allows us to tap into our lineage. Not only on your, your biological blood level, but on a—

um, nice—

your, um, the lineage of, of starseeds, of— yes, you know, I mean, all the dimensions of your lineage, because you come from so many. Um, yeah, it's just such a great ally.

Um, oh wow.

And also healing our connection to our Earth Mother relationship there to, to this like built environment, to this planet. And you can just drink her as a tea or as a tincture. Okay. Yeah, she's, she's absolutely wonderful. Beautiful, like pink little flowers that just are so— Aww. Yeah, I definitely just want to like put that in here as—

Yes, thank you. I know I, as much, you know, as many suggestions and I know that you sell these things and you create your own little potions. How does that come about?

Yeah, I mean, it's so— it's just inspired. It is also a lived experience. So I do a bulk apothecary, so you can buy plants individually and experiment with your— on your own, make your own teas, own tinctures, things like that, which is great if you really want to build a relationship with a specific plants.

Um, oh, how cool is that? Build a relationship.

I love the way you speak.

Everything is just relationships. Yeah, yeah. Uh, the products are very fun because it's often things that I have needed in different times of my life, and then lots of experimentation and research. I am the best guinea pig.

Yeah, yeah, you're like, let me try a little bit of this and a little— what if I spice this up?

Like, that's not exactly what I wanted. Yeah. But yeah, so it's all things that I've looked for myself and have found to be helpful for me. And part of it is when I'm building out a formula, sometimes it just strikes me like the plants together and they're like, we want to be together.

Like, put me together. I love that.

Like, you already have the knowledge. Of course you do, because you're just remembering what you already knew, right?

Yeah, so sometimes they just come in really quick, and other times, like, there's a formula that I'm working on right now that I have 2 plants that are our core into this blend, but there's one more that's just kind of like, I know it wants to be a part of this. And so I think that part is where I get to come in and play around and—

yeah.

What, what works, what's the energy.

And listen to the whispers from the plants, listen to them.

Wind will tell me.

I love that.

Yeah, so it's a combination of both. And, and the products line that I've just most really most recently come out with is called Alter States. Okay, really talking about kind of leaning into this psychedelics that we were mentioning earlier as alternatives to substances that you know and love. And featuring Blue Lotus, that is very popular and has been really pivotal in a lot of my clients coming off of their vapes or stop smoking tobacco. But you can also drink it, so it's a smoking tea. So if you're not a smoker, okay, the ability to, to drink it as well. And I love multi-purpose thing.

Yeah, that's really nice.

Yeah, so fun. Um, and then I have Bliss. Uh, Bliss is a honey electuary, so the herbs are suspended in a honey blend. And wow, it's so delicious. You spread it on, have a little like fancy charcuterie board with—

yeah.

Oh, that's a great idea.

Okay. Um, but the star of that blend is Kanna, and Kanna was introduced to me by my friend Alex Howe, who travels to Africa and harvests this plant alongside the—

wow.

Um, it's been called nature's MDMA.

Okay.

Got this really amazing ability to work on the serotonin receptors.

Interesting.

So it can be a natural antidepressant, or in larger doses, yeah, have that MDMA effect.

Wow.

Um, and then the final product in that line is Crave, and Crave is a tincture that I've blended specifically to work with, um, compulsional cravings that we have for something.

Oh, wow.

Um, it's just like a nervous system support.

Okay, like regulation kind of, or, uh, okay, wow.

Stars of that blend are hops which is in beer.

Okay.

So if you are an alcohol drinker, it really kind of supports, it gives you that little bit of, you know, that edge that you might be looking for with the alcohol.

Sure.

Also has pasqueflower, and pasqueflower comes from the Pacific Northwest and is so potent at stopping anxiety and seizures. So wow, very, very cool plants. And I'm really proud of that line. It's been maybe 2 months now and just absolutely loving experimenting and seeing other people experiment with it.

So cool.

Well, I will be a guinea pig for you. I can't wait to try all your products.

Thanks.

I love that.

I love that.

I also have a discount code for you and all of your listeners. Oh, Dr. Jo Untamed. So I'll, I'll shoot that out.

Nice.

That you can give it out to you.

That would be—

yeah, I'll do that. Dr. Jo Untamed, that kind of describes me really.

Yeah, it is you.

How did you come up with Untamed Altar? I love that to name your business.

Um, before— I just rebranded in April, and before that it was Herbal Hedonism, and it was really never meant to be Okay, can you hear me now?

Hello?

Yes. Okay, so I should be good. Sorry about that. Technology, right? This little guy needs to be charged. Actually, I want to talk a little bit about my experience with ketamine. Ah, she's back.

Mai, can you hear me now?

I can hear you.

Okay, good. Mai, yeah, and again, technology tries to fail me, right?

Yeah, it works.

It works. Okay, um, tell me something else about you that—

I mean, we know that you've got this creative, this beautiful skill and art of putting things together, and that you sing. What else would surprise us to know about you?

What else would surprise you?

Okay.

Um, so I just rebranded in April to Untamed Altar. Before that, I was Herbal Hedonism, which was not meant to be a brand at all.

Oh, okay.

I was the Herbal Hedonist on Instagram, and I just thought it was kind of a clever—

I love it—

title. Um, again, alliteration.

Yes.

But also it kind of has that same energy of like the herbal knowledge, but kind of going into the depths, kind of going into the indulgence, you know, what hedonistic joys can we extrapolate while also having this holistic edge?

Yeah.

And so I kind of just thought I was cheeky and was talking a lot about ecosexuality. And the way that we relate to the world.

Okay.

And through that, I was reached out to by Jesse Watters' team of Fox News. Oh, wow. I didn't think anything of it. I honestly thought it was a scam.

With all those things, it's like, yeah, sure.

Yeah, I was like, whatever. Um, I didn't think much of it, but they were like, we want to interview you and Jesse wants to interview you. Um, and I didn't think much about it, like at all, really. I, I showed up, we had a 3-hour interview.

Wow.

Talked to Jesse Watters about my whole life story. And, um, turns out he was writing a book. And he— they were like, you know, maybe we're gonna include you, maybe we won't. I think they interviewed like hundreds of people.

Yeah.

And, um, ended up a year later I found out that I was gonna be in the book. Oh my gosh, I'm chapter 13. Um, so what is the book called? Uh, I have it on my shelf right here. It's some— it's like, what's wrong with you? Or something like that. I'll have to get it back to you. But yeah, I honestly don't give a lot of credit to the book because the book is not— doesn't paint me or anyone else in a very good light.

Oh, it doesn't?

No, it's, um, basically his whole, uh, hypothesis is that all of the people he interviewed are, um, kind of broken. And they are broken in the ways that they are because they have trauma. And so it's, it's a lot of the thoughts really behind it is like the left is the left because they're traumatized.

Oh wow.

And that's why they need help and, you know, are fucked up or whatever.

Excuse me.

Yeah, I mean, and there were some characters in, in the book. I— it's interesting to see myself among them. Yeah, because there are, there really are some like out there people, but they aren't— their stories aren't bad or wrong. And even though that they have these quirks, even though I have these quirks, um, it's I think it's a lot to say that the whole left, uh, and also the individuals are, are broken because of the trauma that they've experienced. So I really— the title of the book and all the things, I'm like, you know, oh, well, that's—

I mean, didn't you feel betrayed?

And by the way, um, what I do know statistically is that people on the left are more educated, so it's hardly about being quirky or anything like that.

And that's what makes you beautiful, is all the, you know, idiosyncrasies and the ways that your mind works. So, but yeah, didn't you feel betrayed or kind of—

I did, to a degree. I mean, I, um, so they told me I was going to be in the book.

Yeah.

Which was exciting and confusing. Um, I'm— I, I didn't— I mean, I'm special, we're all special, but like, I didn't see myself as like anything special. Yeah. And, um, I was like, okay, I guess I'm going to be in this book. And they wouldn't tell me what the book was called or give me— they wouldn't send me my chapter or anything. I had no information on it until they asked me to come on Fox News and do an interview live. Um, so it was that week and I found out what the book was called and kind of the premise behind the book. And, um, I went on and did the interview even though pretty much everybody in my life told me not to do the interview. They said that Jesse was— the way that he interviewed was really rude and that he would eat me alive and all this stuff, um, that it would ruin my career. I had a lot of, um, other professionals tell me that it was going to ruin my career. But I went on and did it anyways because I felt like I couldn't let any one person dictate the success of my future or the confidence that I had to go on. It just felt like something I had to do.

You took your power back.

Yeah, it was empowering in the end. Very intimidating. At the beginning, but I went on Fox News and talked about ecosexuality, herbalism, intimacy, and my perspective on it. He was, you know, he was himself, and I was, you know, I walked away from that experience feeling proud that I stepped up and did it, but also kind of embarrassed about the way that the interview was navigated. But I had so many people reach out to me after that, a lot of people on the right, um, more conservative views, saying that they were, um, really grateful because they thought about intimacy and love in a different way than they had before. And that was so inspiring for me to continue on with, with this message and living the life the way I do. Um, and yeah, it was honestly so unexpected. I, I never thought I was going to be on Fox News. My grandmother—

wow, that's so—

I mean, you're like a celebrity.

Well, not on my show, so you're a double celebrity. Only this is much better.

You were much better than Jesse Watters, I said.

Was it?

Yeah, I bet it was kind of—

it was intense. And I didn't tell my— I didn't tell my family about it because, um, I hadn't at that point in time been, uh, so forthright with like who I was in the family dynamic. So my grandmother religiously watches Fox News, just saw me come on TV. Oh wow, she must have been like, it was definitely— she was like, she called my mom.

Oh, I bet.

TV, turn it off, turn it off.

Did your mom see it too then?

Yeah, my parents saw it. My, and my, my immediate family is so supportive. Uh, my family as a whole is supportive, but I just hadn't been— I wasn't like out of the closet as a verbal sexy lady yet. Yeah. So that's a really funny story. And so Herbal Hedonism was— I kind of created a website or a brand around it very quickly in response to, you know, the influx of interest, but it was never meant to be that. And so when it came to Untamed Altar, Um, I, I knew that I wanted it to be a little more refined. I wanted it to encapsulate this, this wildness but also this reverence. And, um, so Untamed Altar came to be, and it is what it is now. And I just love the aspects of the, the paradox and the duality, um, because I think it's so much of what we deal with as humans. It's just the experience of, of being able to hold joy but also hold grief, or being able to see ourselves as good people but also do bad things and acknowledge our shadow.

Oh, I have a beautiful story about that grief.

And okay, so neurologically, the body doesn't—

brain doesn't know the difference between grief and ecstasy, right? It's just when we tell ourselves a story or have a memory. So then the implication goes further that, um, the deeper you grieve, the higher, the more ecstasy you can experience, right? So if you want to have really good orgasms, you have to allow yourself to breathe and to grieve. Well, breathe too. And, and then it goes, okay, so according to quantum physics, life and death exist at the same time. Anything does, right? So we're both alive and dead. And when you think about an orgasm, that is a tiny death, like le petit mort, like they call it, tiny death. And that's when life begins. And that's also, if you think about why you cry when you have an orgasm or why you laugh at a funeral, a little bit of mix-up, isn't that— it's— and you can go further with the implications. It's so profound, but I just find that so, so interesting.

So I love that. I actually just recently had this experience as moving through a very tough transitional time for— it was like 2 or 3 months earlier this year, and I felt so heavy, you know, sadness. I was like, oh, am I edging in towards depression? You know, like, where this is tough. And then after, after some of the things got resolved, I was for a month feeling this extreme ecstasy. And so yeah, it just kind of, it gives me a little bit of that, you know, the psychological perspective that you shared.

Yeah, isn't that cool?

Experience.

Yeah.

And then there's of course the non-attachment because we, well, just like you can't stay in an orgasm forever, I mean You can't stay in that place of ecstasy, but also then knowing that you're not going to grieve forever too. We're always in flux with our emotions.

So yeah, it's actually really sad when I stopped feeling the ecstasy feeling.

Of course. I know. Well, just like people with bipolar who are manic, of course they want that experience so they don't take their medication, you know. Um, wouldn't want to be manic and have all this energy and stuff, but then sometimes it can be very destructive. So that's one of the problems with, with that. But I think that's a, well, whole nother topic about how, um, that what we call pathology is actually more in tune with what reality is. Um, like for example, depression or even schizophrenia, that, and the people I've worked with who have schizophrenia always have this unique amazing skill or talent or nuance that I've never seen in anyone else. Um, like there's this musical talent and there was another who is just a genius that— so there's, there's something about the brain where we say there's something wrong when actually it could be something right. It's just our interpretation of it and the way we're conditioned to believe about it. That creates the problem. So that's another thing to think about too.

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's, um, the way that we interpret things, you know, the language that we have around it is important, which is why I think we've had this conversation before, but the talking about harm reduction in all areas, the way that we word things is, is very important. Um, and it's always looking at whose lens is it being worded from, who's talking about, yes, it's normal and what is not normal. And I think that that's the experience of, um, you know, like what I, what I hope to bring into the work that I do, uh, educating people and working one-on-one with clients is getting them to be more okay with where they're at. And of course, medication and, and other resources are so valid and needed at certain points of time and with certain people. And also, if we can get you to a state where you just are more accepting and aware of, of your, uh, of that mental landscape of your emotions and have some assistance from whether it's, you know, modern medicine or through botanical medicine, allowing you to feel those heightened states, allowing it to, to be present. And like you said, it's not going to be here forever. So just accepting that we're either running high or we're running low. We always want to be running high. I think that's— we love to grasp onto it as much as we can. Um, but yeah, just knowing that like nothing's permanent and neither is this body. So the emotion that we get to have is part of the blessing of being human. And when we're not here, much like you said with your story of decaying into the earth, it just becomes stillness, it becomes peace. And, and it's a feeling that it feels so good. But there's also these— I imagine in this, in the spiritual realm, wanting to come back to Earth to experience what it feels like to have heartbreak, which is, you know, unfathomable to us who experience, you know, the pain.

Yeah, I think the most— I, I'll never forget this woman who said the most alive she ever felt was when she lost her baby. Because she said, the amount of pain I felt was so exquisite that I was fully present and fully alive to what it's like to be, just to be. Because of that pain, I thought, what a beautiful story. I mean, obviously it was pain, but she recognized and was able to turn that into the awareness of, wow, I get to have these emotions. I get to have this intensity in my life, you know? So I thought that was a beautiful story. It's a good way to look at emotions, you know, because it is a gift and we try to numb and we try to, and, and, you know, no, don't cry. That's for weak and all those messages when really that's just a beautiful gift of bodily healing. Um, all of the things that we do. So I like that you mentioned that. Yeah.

Definitely been times in my life where I, I feel very fortunate to have had space to give myself. Yeah, the space to feel. Yeah, there are so many things that get in the way, you know. There are jobs, families, modern world.

It just does.

And we don't always have the space to feel. We have to almost disassociate or, or say that we're going to come back to them later, but later really never comes. But then it just, it lingers.

It does.

And so giving yourself the space to really feel and go in as deep as she did, uh, it's almost like she didn't really have any other option because the pain was so heavy, right? Give yourself the space to really feel whatever it is, um, and be present. It, it not only moves through you much faster, but there becomes this almost, um, yeah, this like reverence, this appreciation of the feeling. And even if it's not in the moment, the—

yeah, yeah. That's a good point. Yeah, it is. It's a lovely thing. Oh my gosh, we didn't even talk about sex yet, but we're out of time. So, you know, I'm going to have to have you back if that's okay, Hannah.

Bring me back on. I would love to. Yes. So much to talk about.

I know, right?

Well, tell the audience how we can find you and get your products and all that.

Absolutely. Yes. So you can find me online at www.untamedaltar.com. Um, you can find me at Untamed Altar on Instagram, uh, that's kind of where I do most of my, my medias and my musings. I love to write, so you can go on there or on the website for the blog, um, and hear more of my personal stories and also get information about plants and plant medicine. Um, and besides that, you can also email me at hello@untamedaltar.com if you you want to strike up a conversation, I'm obviously down to talk. I love to talk, so I'd love to hear from you all.

Nice, thank you.

And then the code that you were gonna, um, give the audience for your products, it'll be Dr.

Jo, D-R, no period, Jo, Untamed. And we'll be sure to put that in the show notes or get that to you.

Yeah, I'll do—

I'll put that in there.

So thank you so much. That's What do I call myself now? Dr. Jo Untamed.

Jo Untamed.

I love it. Well, thank you so much, Hannah.

It's been a pleasure.

And don't worry, everyone, we'll have her back because we have so much more to talk about.

Thank you so much. Thank you, everyone, for being here. And thank you, Dr. Jo, so much for having me.

You're welcome. Okay, bye-bye.

Bye.