Interview With Lyft's President John Zimmer On Community, Driver Pay, New Features And More!

Welcome to the Rideshare Guy podcast, where you will learn about the rideshare and mobility industry straight from Harry Campbell, who's got over 5 years experience covering the industry and has talked to thousands of drivers. There's no better place to stay up to date, entertained, and educated. So let's dive in.

All right, well, I'm excited to be here with a man who needs no introduction, uh, John Zimmer, the co-founder and president of Lyft. Is that your official title?

That's it.

I think you've had a few titles over the years, right?

Yeah, this has been the longest one. In the first couple years, I think it was co-founder and COO, but it's been president for most of the time.

Okay, very cool. And you know, I know in talking to some of your team over the years, this is the first time we've ever met, so very excited to be here. And you know, it seems like your nickname is Jay-Z, so I don't know, should I call you John Jay-Z?

John's perfect.

Is that the more professional name?

Whatever.

We'll see how the interview goes. If we're good friends after, maybe we can switch to nicknames. What do you think my nickname would be if I worked at Lyft?

Uh, HC? I don't know.

RSG. Yeah, I think we'll brainstorm some ideas. But I mean, like I said, I'm excited to chat and I appreciate you taking the time. You know, it's been— I feel like there aren't that many people in the rideshare industry who have outlasted me. And yet at Lyft, there seems to be quite a few people at the top still who, you know, don't have anything better to do or just, you know, can't get enough.

But you've been with Lyft Lift for how long now? So from the beginning, we started Lyft just about 10 years ago.

Okay, cool.

About to celebrate with the team the 10 years.

Oh, really?

Yeah. And as you know as well as anyone, it's been a wild ride. Yeah. But we're going strong. We're excited, passionate about the community, about the service, and still got a lot more work to do.

Yeah. So one of the things I was excited to talk to you about was the fact that you've been around for 10 years, I guess even longer with the— Yeah. Zimride before, but when I first signed up to drive for Lyft in 2014, and I was living in Orange County at the time, and those were the very early— I feel it was really the early days, like the real start of rideshare as we know it. And with Lyft specifically, I mean, passengers were sitting in the front seat. There was a big pink furry mustache on the front of the car, which turns out that it got dirty pretty quickly, but it looked really good when it was new. Lyft was the only— they were doing tipping. You know, sort of like a different environment. I'm curious, like, what in your mind has changed the most over the past 8 years?

Yeah, obviously the scale. Now, you know, today I think it's around 1% of the U.S. workforce earns money on Lyft.

Oh, wow.

That obviously wasn't true in 2014 or in those early days when we were getting started. And so, but my background's in hospitality, not in tech. And so I always thought about the Lyft experience as a hospitality experience.

Got it.

Where drivers and riders are part of a community helping each other. That's why in the early days there was the front seat, the fist bump. And I think that—

Ah, the fist bump. That was the thing I forgot.

Yeah. The sense of community has persisted, but obviously we've needed, you know, to scale up and gotten much larger. I think there's an opportunity now. We've just had to navigate the pandemic. But I care deeply about that sense of community and that sense of care between driver and rider and the company. And so I think there's much more we can do and should do there.

Yeah. And I think that's one thing that's always personally attracted me to Lyft. And I know a lot of other drivers have echoed similar, that sense of community, especially early on. You know, I mean, I didn't even mention there were driver Facebook groups, there were meetups happening. I think our friend, shout out to Laura, you know, I think I met her at some of these events and I think she was coordinating a lot of these. And, you know, it definitely, you know, the fact that riders would sit in the front seat or at least be encouraged to sit in the front seat. I know for folks like myself and a lot of others, you know, they're doing this part-time or, you know, a few hours a week. Like, you don't really want to be someone's personal driver. Like, that's not a fun job. But, you know, transporting your friends around and also getting paid for it.

That was the original tagline was Lyft was your friend with a car. And that other company was everyone's private driver.

Yeah.

And so it's lasted. Well, maybe the tagline or the mustache and the fist bump have changed. That sense of, hey, we're in this together, driver and rider should be treated very well versus kind of one being on a different hierarchy.

Yeah. And I mean, even specifically, I was a Lyft mentor for a while. So it was really cool that as a new driver, you actually got to meet with a more experienced, more veteran driver. And, you know, they would sort of walk you through the ropes. They got paid a little bit for it. And, you know, I remember some of the mentors, you know, would give out their phone numbers, and there was a real sense of community. And that program, as you mentioned, you know, I think it seems like some of these more community-based, you know, products or feeling like have, you know, as you scale, I guess, you know, like you said, if there's 350 million people in the US and 1% are working for Lyft, that might be millions of people that are working for Lyft. Is it just too hard to scale some of those programs as you go up, or? How do you feel like you've lost some of that community because of the scale? Like, how do you think about it?

It's hard. And yeah, like I said, I think there's a lot of feedback we're listening to and wanting to get back to those roots in many ways. And I think, yeah, some of the things like the mentor program are hard to do at scale. Also, COVID really threw a wrench in a lot of the things where people interacting in person was put on ice in some ways. And so I'm optimistic.

No more sitting in the front seat, I guess you could say, right?

Yeah, but I'm optimistic. We have some stuff in the works that I think will help us do that at scale. Got it. But agree, I think there's a big opportunity to kind of go back to our roots.

Yeah, I would agree. I mean, I guess I am thinking of this analogy right now, but it's sort of like a fire that has not been completely extinguished, but just needs a little bit of kindling or a little bit of love. To kind of get back to those roots. Because I do think, to me, you know, that was always one thing that I thought, you know, made Lyft stand out. And I think in the surveys that we've done, you know, thousands of drivers over the years, you know, Lyft always scored pretty high, you know, amongst drivers when they were talking about their satisfaction with the company. And, you know, I think that culture definitely, it would be cool to see some more of that.

Yeah, we see even today, like those surveys you mentioned, the sense of community being double that on Lyft than than Uber. And so obviously to drivers, earnings are the top priority. But they also want to be respected. And that's something that we care a lot about.

Well, and that was one thing that I always found interesting is that Lyft drivers always reported higher satisfaction, whether they were Lyft only or doing both 50/50 Lyft and Uber. They always reported higher satisfaction with Lyft. And anecdotally, I think talking to drivers, my own experience was sort of like, check, check, check. But then the thing that always, not confused me, but that we also always saw is drivers reported making more money with Uber, maybe because they were busier. And so I'm curious how you think about that balance, right? Like for drivers, they kind of do care about, you know, it's nice to be respected and, you know, well-liked and well-loved. But if you're not busy and if you're not making money, you know, that's kind of like the bottom line basically, right?

Yeah. I mean, I agree with exactly how you stated it, which is we're going to do everything possible to take care of and respect the driver community. At the end of the day, drivers want to get paid.

Yeah.

And they want to make the most money. And so it's on us to make sure we do both of those things. And so we have a lot of stuff coming on the earnings side that I'm excited to talk about. For sure. That I think helps close any gaps. And so hopefully it can be clear that you can earn the same or more with Lyft. Yeah. While also being part of a stronger community and kind of a more hospitable environment between driver and rider.

Definitely. Well, I definitely want to dig into some of those product announcements or whatever you want to tease, you know, when it comes to driver earnings, because that's very important. And we know that drivers care about earnings a lot. So we'll dig into that. I guess, you know, on this point, I mean, if you look at market share, for example, right, like Uber obviously has more market share than Lyft. And, you know, maybe across the board, maybe there's some cities where it's more competitive. But I guess like for drivers, should they expect to make as much money when they drive for Lyft only? Or how do you think about, I guess, like setting the right expectations for drivers? Because obviously we know some drivers do Lyft only, some do Uber only, some do both, some will drive for whoever pays them the most that day or that week, right? So how do you think about those different cohorts of drivers and like what are the expectations they should have, you know, when they come and drive for Lyft?

Expectation is that you can maximize your earnings with Lyft, period. What does that mean?

Stay busy or?

That you can earn, you can stay busy and earn the most with Lyft.

Got it.

And you can be part of something with a little bit more purpose and mission orientation. The big, you know, reason we're doing this is because we want cities to be more people-oriented, to be more community-oriented, to have drivers and riders from different backgrounds interact. And I hear all these still to this day, incredible stories, everything from as simple as, you know, the driver helped me with groceries, or the rider invited me to a concert after we had an incredible ride. We hear these every week. That's—

I get great food recommendations from passengers living in LA. It's like I'll go to parts of LA and drop them off at restaurants. They're like, it's the oldest restaurant in LA. You've never been to this Italian place? I've never heard of it.

Yeah.

I'm like, all right, add it to my list. Yeah.

So that real sense of community is still very important and still like why I believe, you know, is kind of the brand reason and the cultural reason for being part of the Lyft community. But it's on us to make it, you know, to establish trust with the driver and to deliver on earnings. And we have more work to do on that.

Got it. So that would be in terms of keeping them busy or, I mean, I know, like you said, you know, it's almost like COVID has thrown quite a big wrench in it. How do you think COVID has affected, you know, either the platform or drivers' earnings? You know, one complaint that we've heard from drivers when it comes to driving for Lyft, and it sounds like you guys actually might have a product to address this, is the long pickups.

Yeah.

You know, the fact that on Lyft, during period 1, I guess you would call it, when you have that app on, or I guess period 2 when you would get a ride and then you're driving to the passenger. That's basically unpaid time. And so if you have 5 minutes, that's good. 15 minutes, not so good, especially if it's a short ride once you get there.

Yeah, so a few things coming that kind of stack in a very positive way for drivers, hopefully. One you already know about, upfront pay is now live in 18 markets. We have a lighter version of upfront pay in about 34, which is upfront info. But we're bringing all markets to upfront pay.

Got it.

So our goal is by the end of the year that all our markets have upfront pay. That's kind of step 1.

And so, yeah, we covered upfront pay, but just for those who don't know, it's basically telling drivers, you know, more information about the trip, how much they're making and where it's going ahead of time on every single trip. Yeah, it's sort of— I feel like I love that it's here, but it's also like, I'm also like, man, what took so long?

I agree.

It's crazy that you never knew this information.

I agree. I think that's a fair opinion. And I think it took us too long, frankly. It's a really simple concept of aligning incentives, where let's establish trust with the driver community by trusting the driver community. And that's really what this product is. And I agree, we should have got there sooner. But we're now there.

And obviously, there are some challenges too.

It's hard, but that's not an excuse. It's the right thing, and it's now here, and it should be in every market by the end of the year.

Cool.

The next step on that is now that you're telling drivers the info they need to make informed decisions, make sure that everything is worth their while. Every ride type, and the long rides are a great example. And so we're now in experiment with the long trip bonus. And so drivers will start seeing in upfront pay a trip bonus, and that's tied to long trips. And so we've heard the feedback, we agree. And basically with upfront pay, we have to solve all these things.

Is it long pickup? If you have to drive a long way to pick them up, is that the—

Yeah. Yeah. They'll be different in, you know, if it's a long trip, drivers typically like that. But if it's a long pickup, There's two issues, obviously, as a driver.

I mean, long pickup is obviously maybe the least desirable because it's like you have to drive the farthest.

But then there's also the deadhead issue with a long trip that's going outside my zone. So those two issues are things that we want to help solve for the driver community. The goal is that with upfront pay, we want drivers to want all the rides. But it's on us, the company, to make sure it is enticing and interesting. And so that's what upfront pay, I think, really exposes and puts the onus on us to solve. So yes, long trip bonus is in experimentation and being rolled out over the next several months. I'm super excited about that. Priority pickup is something that we launched, and you asked about kind of the challenges of COVID We launched at the beginning of COVID and then the marketplace got totally out of whack for drivers and for the company.

I mean, I think there was a long pickup experiment too in about 4 or 5 markets that we covered right before COVID I'm assuming a few of these pilots unfortunately got a bit derailed.

Yeah, there were a lot of other things that we had to prioritize to make sure on both the driver and rider side that we could offer, you know, safe transportation and solve the new marketplace problems that that presented. But Priority Pickup is an exciting product for Platinum drivers where you can get priority dispatch basically and get more ride requests, have less waiting time. It was super popular when we had it at the beginning of COVID and we're going to be bringing that back now. Which I'm also super excited about.

Very cool. So it sounds like you've got a suite of products and features that are rolling out. Would you say that they're helping drivers to earn more or to sort of have more flexibility? Or how would you— like, what should drivers expect? I'm going to earn more off of this?

Yeah, the goal again is that—

I'm going to have a top year or a little of everything?

I'd say it's a little of everything. I think that the overall kind of feedback we hear from drivers is consistency. I want consistency. I want high earnings and I want them to be consistent. And I want more transparency and trust.

Got it.

And so I think it addresses those items. And then it exposes us in a way that I think is good, which is if we're not paying correctly for a certain trip type, drivers won't take it. And so then we have to pay the right amount. And so I'm glad to be aligning incentives more closely. And again, wish we'd got there sooner. For sure. But we're here now.

Better late than never. So I think what I really like about what you're describing is the fact that, you know, I think in the past there have been products, and not to single Lyft out because it's not the only company that have done it, but it's like, hey, here's a shared ride, take it. You don't really get an option to turn this off. Hey, here's a ride, you don't know where it's going, you have to take it. And so it's sort of like for drivers, it's almost like, it's kind of like the whole reason why they're doing gig work in the first place. They don't like being told what to do, right? They don't like being told when to work and where to work. So it's almost like I kind of like any product or feature that puts, you know, the company lifts money, you know, where their mouth is and basically says like, hey, you don't have to take this trip. We're gonna give you the information. We're gonna try to make it so profitable that you want. And if we see that enough drivers aren't doing this, you know, maybe we're not paying enough or maybe we're not charging the rider enough, right?

Yeah, yeah, I think it's a good healthy evolution of how this needs to happen, so.

Yeah, and I think the other thing you touched on that I like that I'm curious if there's any sort of downside to is the loyalty. I mean, one thing we've seen, and I think especially with Lyft, they've got a lot of veteran drivers, you know, people who've been with the company for years, done thousands or tens of thousands of trips. I know, you know, we teased doing this interview and we got a lot of feedback from our audience. They had a lot of good questions. I won't hit you with all of them, but I think one of the topics that I saw that a lot of questions around was sort of of this concept of loyalty, right? Like, if I'm a top driver for Lyft, whether that's rating, rides, you know, one of those types of metrics, like, what is Lyft giving me that, you know, they're not giving some brand new driver off the street? Like, shouldn't I be getting some sort of higher pay? Or it sounds like priority pickup. Like, that seems like a good thing to me.

Yeah, priority pickup is a perfect example of this. I'm super excited that's coming back for Platinum drivers. It really is what I consider to be, what I've heard from drivers, the most important. It addresses higher earnings. I definitely think Party Pickup does that. The other thing we're excited about, maybe sharing some news that I don't think has been shared, I could be wrong, but is we want to give all Lyft drivers Lyft Pink, which is our membership program.

Got it.

And so treating the driver community as, you know, as a community where, hey, we have this membership program. Yeah. It costs $9.99 a month, but we're gonna give that to you because you're helping us power this membership community and you're a big part of it. I think creates the right kind of incentive and just kind of loyalty more broadly for the brand. So I'm excited about that. And there's more we can do. I think, you know, we've definitely heard feedback that, you know, these incentives feel random. And if I'm with the community for a long time, why aren't I getting more longer-term incentives? And so I think there's a lot more we can and need to do. And we're listening.

So the one thing that kind of stands out to me in all of this is like a lot of what I've heard so far sounds pretty good, sounds pretty positive, but it's also like more confusing than it used to be, right? Like back in the day when I was driving for Lyft, it was just you got paid more per mile and more per minute and there weren't as many bonuses and incentives and long pickups and this and that. I'm curious, you know, how you think about balancing kind of simplicity with, you know, all the things that drivers want. But at the same time, right, if you give drivers the complete ability to pick every trip they want, maybe they might abuse it too much, right? So how do you kind of balance the two?

Well, on Simplicity, I think what's super exciting about upfront pay is that— and we're not there yet, and we won't be there, you know, in when it's rolled out, you know, through the end of the year to every market— but over the next year or two, I think we can keep building more of these complex incentives just right into upfront pay.

Yeah.

So that it's not about, you know, thinking about streaks and thinking about all these different things. It's It's all going to be represented in upfront pay. And basically what that is, is like, hey, like Lyft needs to pay the right amount for the right ride at the right time. And we're letting drivers choose. So I do think over time upfront pay has the ability to simplify everything. In terms of the abuse, like we need to design with trust and that you need to basically, if we're seeing people not want a ride, like I said before, that means that we need to pay more for that ride. And so that's the kind of principle we're designing towards. Of course, if someone was, you know, not accepting anything, you know, you may need to look at it, but we're not really, like, that's not the focus of how we're designing this product. We're thinking, how can we design it so that it works? Like, we expect drivers want trips that pay them well.

Got it. And I mean, I'm trying to think if there's any other products that still have maybe that opportunity to give drivers the opt-in. Like Shared Rides, I think, is the first one that comes to mind, where drivers were really never a fan, in my opinion, of shared. I think a lot of surveys, there was actually pretty negative feedback around Shared Rides. And you were kind of forced to take them. There were times, if you're on more of a trip-based bonus, where you can rack up a bunch of short trips, then they're nice. But it's kind of like double the work for about the same, maybe less, maybe more. Kind of pay? Are there products like shared rides or others that are still kind of forced that maybe might be switching to, you know, more of an opt-in? Are you guys looking at that in the future?

Not currently looking at making that opt-in. I think there are certain things that, you know, we need to be opinionated on that when the marketplace works well, when the marketplace grows, that means there are more driving opportunities and driver earnings opportunities. And so don't want to divide up the kind of opportunities too much. But that said, again, if we provide all the information up front, we should give drivers that choice.

I guess that's sort of the way to technically, you know, you may not have a button in your app that you can opt out, but if you don't feel that you like it or, you know, you don't feel that it's paying enough, you obviously have the ability now, it sounds like, with that information.

And that goes back to this, if there's a ride type or whether it's a long pickup or or a shared ride that drivers don't like as much, then clearly we have to pay more for that trip type in order to get the marketplace outcome that we want. And so again, this is where I'm optimistic that incentives can be more closely aligned and drivers will— the end result will be drivers trusting that we're putting the best opportunities in front of them and that they have choice.

So it sounds like there's a lot of interesting opportunities around basically finding the right trip for the right driver, which I have always, you know, people have always asked me, you know, what's the average driver look like? I'm like, whoa, that's a tough question because I mean, there are a lot of drivers who some prefer only driving during the days, some prefer only at night. Some drivers I'll talk to, they love the long trips. Other drivers hate the long trips, right? And, you know, some like shared. So there's, you know, it's hard to account for all those preferences. So I like the idea of giving drivers that ability to select this or select that or have more information so they can make those choices. So I guess I'm all for it.

Yeah, awesome.

You know, one thing, another good reader question we got, I'm curious how you— you've got a lot— well, let's start, I know that you've got a lot of experience driving for Lyft. And I don't know if you still do it, but I remember I used to always see on New Year's Eve—

Yeah, I do it every New Year's.

—you would send out a little picture or you would tweet out a picture of you driving. So you still drive every New Year's Eve? Yeah. You know, take passengers around?

Yeah, I think it's been 10 years, and— 9 or 10. And the hardest year was when I had our daughter a few days— like 10 days earlier. Oh wow. And I was, you know, my wife knew that this is my thing. I drive on Lyft every New Year's. And so I, once everyone was asleep, I snuck out and did some late night rides.

And so is it these days, is it more for fun? Is it kind of a combo of getting feedback? I'm curious how I know the driver experience, obviously you're very intimate with all of these products and features. So it sounds like you're doing a lot of work there. Like how much is the actual experience of driving, whether it's you or the team, like how much does that kind of impact your view?

Super important. It's super important. When I started studying hospitality, the first things we had to do is work in the hotel. If you're gonna create an environment or a community or, a hospitality service for people, you need to understand the work. And I wish I could drive more, but at a minimum— You have a day job though, huh? Yeah, I got another job. But at a minimum, you know, driving every year is super important for multiple reasons. One is to demonstrate on a very important night where riders need safe rides and drivers are making sacrifices about not being with their family, I'm going to be there with the driver community. I'm going to be there. Driving. The other thing is—

I've never driven New Year's Eve. A little too crazy even for me.

I have some interesting stories. The other— it's important for me to be experiencing the new products. And obviously, I'm not trying to say my experience is the same as a driver who's driving more time. But it does give me a sense of the upfront pay experience or when I get a— a ride with a rider photo, how much better that feels than when I have a rider who doesn't have a photo. And thinking about all the safety products we've launched for drivers, a lot has come out of our own experiences. So, and it's fun. I like the experience. I like interacting with people, and I enjoy driving.

Yeah. Well, so safety, I'm glad you brought that up because I feel like this is a topic that maybe outside the industry, I mean, if you're a driver, that exact situation. I'm 6'3", 200 pounds, and I've been driving for 8 years. But there have been times where if I'm picking up late night in an alley and no rider, fake name, it's like, what? Or no picture, fake name. That seems a little shady, right? So you can imagine if you're a different person or smaller stature or whatever it might be, physically. I'm smaller than you, so yeah. Physically, you could feel unsafe. And some female drivers that we talk to, they report they have to deal with a lot more crap from passengers. Centers. So, you know, on the safety, I would love to know, you know, how Lyft is thinking about safety. And you mentioned a couple products that you've released because I think this is one thing that kind of feels unfair to drivers. They have to go through pretty strict background checks. And I think now, you know, it's more than yearly, it's kind of all the time or ongoing. And, you know, they have to maintain that rating. And so I'm curious, you know, how you think about that because I think driver safety is definitely a— when I asked our audience, that was definitely one of the things they were curious to hear from you about.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. It's critical. And One of the newest things we've done, kind of been more quiet about it, but since you asked. If a rider is paying with a more kind of anonymized payment method, there are additional ID checks, like show us your driver's license, things like that, that we will do. So we're starting to look at rider ID. From the kind of more risky kind of payment methods as a way to solve part of the issue. The other thing the team recently did and is continuing to do, I mentioned photos. I think that's at a minimum, photos and name is something we're trying to improve. And we're trying various things to get more rider photos. So there's more work to be done there. We also added— the ability for drivers a while ago to be able to send their location to a loved one, to have silent ADT that we've had for a while now. If something about the trip looks off or if a driver wants to notify emergency services. So there's a lot there. But I agree, there's more to be done.

What about dashcams? Because I just gave you a copy of my book. And I think in the book, I want to say the second or third item, I recommend a phone mount. Track your miles. And then I think dashcam, I want to say, is my third recommendation. Most people don't take me up on it. But I'd say maybe 10% of drivers have it. Obviously, outward for if you get into an accident to prove the other person's at fault. But I mean, inward, like, I've been driving with a dashcam since day one, 8 years ago. I used to have this cam called the Falcon. And it was big and bulky and had a green light blinking. And passengers would say, hey, what's that light? And I'd say, you're on camera. And I never had any issues with it. But it kind of, like, right there prevented a lot of bad behavior and, of course, then recorded. And now there's cameras that upload to the cloud instantly while you're driving. So I feel like— I'm curious what Lyft— or what you're thinking, how to utilize tools like that that I think are really underutilized right now.

Yeah, I mean, I think we want to give drivers choice. It's their choice. If they want to put that in the vehicle, they can. Some drivers don't want that in the vehicle. So I think, to your point, it's a great tool for many drivers who who see that as a way to improve safety, and we're supportive of that.

Got it. Got it. Cool. So, you know, I think one thing that— I'm gonna start hitting a couple of my reader questions from the community, then, you know, sort of somewhat filtered so you don't have to hear the complete unfiltered thoughts of all my readers. They've got some good questions, though, and I think, you know, a few of the topics that they mentioned, definitely safety, you know, earnings, which I think we've touched on. And, you know, one thing I also saw that was, you know, like elephant in the room, you know, there is another competitor called Uber, right? Where, you know, you brought them up first, so, you know, I'll I'll touch on it now, but I think one driver, or a couple drivers mentioned that it seems like Lyft, a lot of the features Lyft has been releasing are following in Uber's footsteps, or similar. Upfront pay being a good example of Uber rolled that out and now Lyft is. I'm not necessarily saying that's a bad thing, and I don't know that I completely agree either, but I'm curious how you think about what the competition is doing and whether it's like, are you guys looking to innovate on your own stuff, you know, kind of copy or take some of what they're doing? Like, how do you think about the innovation versus, you know, just kind of looking at what other products are out there?

Well, I'd say on the driver's side, this type of competition is really healthy. You know, in the early days of Lyft, as you know, I mean, first of all, the fact that we survived in the early days, there were some moments where it was really tough. That other company had raised $3 billion from the Saudi government, and we had about 5 months of of cash left. This is 2012. We're in a—

Before I even got into the industry.

But no, actually it was 2014. I'm sorry. We started in 2012. But when you started riding, it was very tough to compete. But the team is so passionate, and we were able to raise the capital, and we were able to stand up on our two feet. That has been critical for the driver community to have competition. We were the only platform that had driver tips, which was like— obvious to us, and it took them years to add that. We were the first to have express pay, which is now just a given. So we've, like, innovated a lot of the driver care and made it competitive. And I think that it's, you know, sometimes we'll get out in front. I think this safety piece is, I think we're leading on a lot of this and some of it drivers, again, we're doing stuff in the background that maybe drivers aren't even aware of to help protect their safety. You know, don't believe they're doing any of that. And so on upfront pay specifically, it obviously— we actually started testing it in March of 2020. I don't know exactly when they were testing it, but we were really early on. We should have scaled it faster. We now are. But the competition is healthy. And I would lay claim to, you know, we, by surviving and by leading with some of those really early products that made it obvious, like if you take care of drivers, that it's good for the business. We made that more obvious to the industry and more competitive. And I think that back and forth is a good thing. Yeah.

I mean, maybe I'm getting out of my area of expertise, but I think broadly in business, usually competition is a good thing. And I think the examples that you're citing, tipping, I mean, I think Lyft did, especially early on, I feel like they had tipping. I mean, even the power driver bonus, which basically gave you, half or full commission back.

Lyft was the first doing that. Party pickup, I think this product that we're talking about, we definitely were the first to do it. I don't know that they do it at this time. And so the fact that we're going to bring that back as a loyalty opportunity for top drivers on the Lyft platform is something else we're innovating on. So there's differences in how we'll innovate, but the fact that we're making it the right thing to do good things for drivers is healthy.

Yeah, the reason I wanted to bring it up is I'm actually not sure. I saw a few people mention this, and I think that there might— I'm not sure I agree It, but I do think there is the perception out there that Lyft tends to copy Uber when it comes to driver products, features. I'm not sure I actually agree with that. I haven't sat down and tallied it up, like who got it first and all of that. But the reason why I wanted to ask you about it was because I also like your first point, that the competition, it doesn't really matter who did it first. Eventually, if it's a really good product, the other person's gonna copy it, right? That's kind of obvious. I mean, is that kind of a disadvantage in that you could come up with something really amazing and then Uber just copies it?

It used to bother me. But if you think about like tipping as the example, do I want drivers on whatever platform not to get tips? No. You know, fine. Like, OK, we established that principle. They copied it. We established the principle that drivers should be able to get paid, you know, Express Pay the second they want.

Probably the most popular driver product of all time.

It has been the most popular product of all time in terms of what we saw. What it did for driver hours and just kind of how many people were using it. And so then they do it. That's— I feel good about that. We have to do some— like, we have to keep raising the bar. Like you said, we've been in this for a decade, care deeply about the overall mission and the driver community. And so fine, we keep raising the bar. That's a good thing. And we want to win. We want to treat drivers better. But we, you know, there'll be some back and forth. And then, you know, the hope is that also we can do more on the kind of, which we see in the surveys about like trust and actual respect between the driver and rider and between the company. And if we can win there while being, you know, one up, one down on product parity, I think that's a good place to be. Yeah.

And I mean, it kind of brings up an interesting point that like maybe some of these products are kind of commoditized and like you could come up with something great. They could come up with something great eventually. Everyone offers it, and me as a driver, and, you know, driver-focused sites, like, wow, this is great, we're, you know, getting more options and making more money and it's more flexible. But I guess from a business perspective, like, how do you stand out if, you know, like, the greatest product you've ever created can just be kind of copied like that?

Yeah, I mean, well, there's obviously two sides to the marketplace. There's the driver side and the rider side. Yeah. And on the driver side, we want to be the best place to earn consistently. Yeah. And a place where you are respected and treated well by the rider community and by the company. Yeah. On the rider side, this also matters to drivers because if we can build the best singular transportation solution, then we will get more and more opportunities for, for drivers. So I think actually the, the way we win is by being true to the the hospitality roots of the company, taking care of the driver community and the rider community, and adding more and more transportation options for riders that bring more people over to Lyft. And so Lyft drivers will be able to experience with Lyft Pink that we're going to be giving them for free a lot of new services that will help.

I'm a Lyft Pink member, by the way.

Yeah. And we're going to start—

I think you get a discount on scooters and bikes. Yeah.

You get that. You get bikes, you get, you know, more affordable Lyfts. Free priority pickup on the rider side. And there's gonna be more coming that I'm not supposed to talk about, but that will help drivers a lot. Okay, cool.

Yeah, no, I mean, I think a lot of the synergies between, you know, drivers aren't typically heavy users of, on the rider side, but, you know, I think some of the features of Lyft Pink are definitely beneficial. I mean, even, you know, I think one of the most popular YouTube videos we ever did was our number one piece of advice for new drivers. And it's basically go take a ride before you become a driver because you get a free coupon.

One of our top channels, you know, top ways that drivers come to Lyft is from the rider side. Oh, really? And so I think that is also a bit more unique to us in that there is this sense of equality and community that, you know, the Lyft drivers like, well, I— or the Lyft riders like, hey, I'd also like to drive.

Yeah. So I think I— yeah, I definitely like that. And, you know, I think some of the— companies that we've worked with in the past across the globe, there's certain regions that, you know, where like driver is sort of like very much looked down upon versus the rider. And I think some of the companies that have done a good job, especially globally, they've sort of like helped riders understand what it's like, whether it's, you know, like a carpooling app that actually requires riders to do at least one trip a month so that when you're sitting there waiting for someone to come out and it takes 5 minutes, you're like, wow, this is really annoying. I should only call a ride when I'm ready, right? I think some of those easy wins and easy synergies you can kind of get from, you know, kind of having that commingling of rider and drivers. And it seems like a good opportunity for Lyft to stand out.

Totally. And that's also a reason why it's important for us to drive on the platform to fully understand that.

Yeah. What about delivery? I know that Lyft has launched this delivery business, and I'm not sure all the details, but, you know, obviously that's a big part of Uber and Uber Eats. And I won't share my full thoughts on delivery in general, but You know, there are many drivers who start with rideshare, move to delivery, or do a little of both, or vice versa. So I'm curious how important or, you know, how you see that fitting in, because you mentioned expanding transportation options, but there's obviously this whole separate, you know, adjacent category.

Yeah, so what we are doing is delivery for businesses. What we are not doing is a kind of consumer app where someone could come in and order food or order something and from us. But there are a lot of businesses out there that need a driver community. Yep. That we have, and they don't necessarily want to be losing 30% of their revenue to these, to the other delivery platforms. And so we think it's a unique opportunity. And then as we think about on the driver side, we've heard from drivers rideshare is likely always going to be the highest earning opportunity. And historically has been by anywhere from 10% to 30%, depending on the time. You know, in the pandemic, it was, you know, good to be on delivery. Post-pandemic rideshare again has been the highest earning opportunity. Yeah. But if it's a way for us to help smooth out any slower hours and to give drivers more opportunities should they want to do it, then we think it's worth looking at. But again, we're not going to do any consumer delivery.

Yeah, I actually like that idea because I've always been very skeptical of the fact that, you know, rideshare driver will drive in the morning and then hop over and do lunch delivery and then your car kind of smells pretty terrible. And then you hop into a pass— you know, have a passenger after lunch. And, you know, I think the vehicle type also matters. But I sort of like that. I'm much more bullish on this sort of last mile delivery for businesses because obviously everyone wants more things delivered faster. And, you know, you can get like an iPhone, right? Like a $20 delivery on a $1,200 iPhone.

Most of the items are non-perishable, they're not food that we're working with. So you can stack orders. Yeah, so you could— exactly. You could bundle orders together and make a really nice driver experience where there's a string of 10. It's a really nice product that we have with some of the businesses we've partnered with. But also, yeah, there's no food that has to be delivered in 15 minutes or makes your car stink.

So just if we have a little more time, the last couple of topics I wanted to hit on, I think One thing that, you know, I guess even my own experience, like, I didn't hear from too many people during the pandemic from Lyft. I'm curious, you know, like, if whatever you want to share, you know, like, what has Lyft been, you know, sort of focused on? You know, you mentioned kind of staying alive and dealing with some major challenges and issues, but, you know, if you could sort of enlighten us during the past 2 years, like, what's Lyft been up to?

Yeah, the hardest thing the company faced was before the pandemic. So when people, you know, the pandemic was very hard, you know, as as we've said publicly, you know, 70 to 80% of rides in all of ridesharing, you know, went away almost overnight. That still wasn't the hardest moment. Again, 2014 was still much harder than that. But really over the last 2 years, we've built a ton of different products to help manage the marketplace. So, you know, what I mean by that is demand was fluctuating so much. You know, you have a COVID spike. And demand would shoot down. But we need to take care of drivers. So what products could we offer? And so, you know, we were offering priority pickup for loyal drivers to have more consistency. So we developed that tool. And then, you know, then the opposite happened. Drivers were less interested in doing rideshare for a period of time. And then we had to develop other tools. So it's really been about balancing and kind of bringing consistency to the marketplace. Luckily, we are now there. I'd say we're in a post-pandemic world. That's my opinion. And so now we're able to kind of focus on the things that I think are going to be even more meaningful to drivers and the broader rideshare community. Yeah.

Well, so how important do you think is balancing— not necessarily balancing, but how important is it to sort of develop these products but then tell drivers about it? Like, I'm curious how many drivers know, you know, about priority pickup or will know about it. Like, you know, do you really get credit for it if they don't know about it? How do you think about that?

Yeah, I think we can do a better job, absolutely, of communicating what we have and what's available. At the end of the day, what matters most is that the driver's experience is getting better. Less about the credit and more about that we're actually delivering for the driver. And so something like priority pickup, it will be very obvious to a Platinum driver that it exists. They will have the option right in the app. And so could we do more to kind of scream and yell about all the great things we're doing? Yes, we probably could. And we'll try to do a better job communicating that. But more important to us is that drivers, loyal drivers— For sure. —know about it and are having a better experience.

Yeah, no, that's a good point. I mean, I think there's the communicating, but how many company emails have you gotten from some random company? You ignore them. Or a notification, you're like, I just want to go online and work. So I think like the actual product's gonna speak for itself.

The best marketing is when it's in the product.

Right, yeah, like that priority pickup. So I think you've got some cool features in the pipeline that drivers will be excited for, and I appreciate you taking the time for the interview. Is there anything we didn't touch on?

No, I think we got it. And yeah, let's do it again.

All right, cool. Appreciate it.

Thanks.