Marriage Q&A: Conflict, Connection, Mastering Self-Control | Ft. Ashley Negron

Welcome to the Optimizing Beyond podcast. I'm Josh Negron, and this show is all about sharing lessons, ideas, and strategies that sharpen your thinking, strengthen your habits, and push you to grow beyond comfort zones. Let's dive in. Welcome back. Today's episode, we want to run through Q&A of most frequently asked questions that we were running across in a lot of our marriage studies. And so we wanted to share some of those But before we get into those, I want to highlight one specific detail that I think probably has been the most impactful in transforming my relationships. And that's been that the reality and realization that you cannot control other people, including your spouse, however much you may want to. And so because of that, realizing that you can only change yourself, and you can only control yourself, then when you encounter things like this, of like how to engage your marriage, how to improve your marriage, sometimes you're gonna have to take that shift, that focus on them and what they're not doing, and transform it right back towards you with the hope that if you start to work on yourself, maybe it'll catch on. But then again, you have to be careful with that because if you do it for the wrong reasons and kind of like, well, maybe if I change, maybe they'll change, that, that can get in the manipulation territory real quick. So It is a give and take. Every relationship has this dynamic, but that is something that's super powerful to remember that as we go through some of these, I can totally get someone saying, well, yeah, but you have an awesome marriage. Your spouse doesn't do blah, you know? And so of course it's easy for you to say that. But again, these are some things that we went through that we saw that were really common things that you can maybe quickly address or quickly identify and adjust. So the first one, let's get right into something super intense. The first one is yelling and cussing and name-calling in the heat of the moment is never a good approach because it reinforces the belief that conflict is not emotionally safe or productive. It's also just not very fun, right? So Ashley, you and I have been together, uh, going on 19 years together. And 17 years married. Yes. So how have we implemented this? Like, what is this like in your perspective?

Well, you know, I mean, honestly, like, there's no easy way to say it other than like name-calling and cussing at someone is just a cheap shot. Like, that's when you, when you bust it out is when it's a cheap shot. It does. It's not, it's not necessary. It's below the belt. I mean, honestly, like, if you were in a, in a match of some kind and like, that's what you did was a below the belt move. You, it doesn't work. Those things aren't allowed. Timeout. Illegal. Right? So same concept applies to that in an argument with your spouse. You're gonna, what is it they say? Like you're gonna catch a lot more flies with honey than vinegar, right?

Mm-hmm.

Same concept. When you are kinder and you use not, I mean, you can be, you can have emotions. I'm not saying don't have emotions. Mm-hmm. But there's no need for below the belt action. I guess would be the way to say that.

Right. And that, I think that also like transitions the conflict or whatever you're discussing from the actual topic and then just starts to make things personal, right? Like at that point, you're then attacking the person instead of the thing. I like to always like, when we in the past have gotten stuck in like defensive loops and things like that, I like to try to bring us back to the problem, like us two against the world, us two against the problem, right? And so sometimes When we're discussing a problem that maybe bumps up against old wounds or something that one of us or even both of us are sensitive with, I like to try it when I recognize that. I like to try to bring that back. Hold on, hold on, hold on. This isn't— this is not about you. It's not about me. This is about this problem. And you and I are together in this, right? And try to reinforce that so that, uh, again, you eliminate this, this personal attack component, which just adds another layer.

Mm-hmm.

And puts you farther away from reconciliation, right? Farther away from being on the same page.

Yep, absolutely. No need to name call.

Right, right. And another thing I'll say that I've been working through personally is that there are times where in my frustration, I may feel— I mean, you and I have been together a really long time. I feel like I can be really honest with you if I'm frustrated or displeased. But I have recently been challenged to, as especially as the man, and this, this may sound unconventional, the end result is me being nicer to you. So whatever, if someone like wants to get pissed about that, that's fine. But the idea is that especially as the man, you should have more self-control when interacting with your wife because you have an extreme power to hurt her if you're not careful. If you're maybe, maybe you have, maybe a lot of men. Stereotypically, you know, and we're going to talk in generalities here a lot today, but a lot of men struggle with self-control in the emotional space, which typically comes out in anger. So, and if you're not careful, you could say things— we're not even talking about the physical space, like that's off the table already. Like, let's just, let's just get that out of the way. But from a, from a verbal standpoint, there's, there's a lot of things that you can say. Um, and you can just say, well, I'm just, you know, I'm just telling the truth. I'm just speaking my mind. I think if, for me, I looked at that as just another level of care. What I do when I'm in those moments is I picture something that I say making you cry. And I'm like, don't say that. And so that's been helping me regulate just being snotty. Like, not even like maybe in a fight, but just like being sarcastic. Or even if I'm just at a level of irritation, you know, sometimes you just clap back or just say something smart or sarcastic.

Mm-hmm.

and cutting, you know, that can just, you know, I don't know where you're at in the day. And that's just like, I'm looking for ways, like, I obviously haven't cussed at you or name-called you in many moons, if ever. Um, and so I'm looking at additional ways that I can have higher degree of care for you. So that's something that's been challenged too recently of just, you know, be as a man, be intentional to treat your wife with even more care and more respect.

Yeah.

Which is only Obviously going to be more in danger of maintaining that when you're, when you're like highly frustrated or irritated or whatever.

You know, and I think it's important to remember and keep in mind when you're having a disagreement or an argument, like we tend to be the most unkind to the people that we care about the most because we are freer with our words. We are, we do feel safer to emotionally express the full range of emotion, right? But sometimes it can be unkind and uncaring. And so it's just super important in those moments to have really honestly like an element of self-control and to keep those, those things in, you know. While it may not have been like cussing or those kinds of things or name-calling for, for us, um, I initially, when we very first got married, like my go-to response is Anger, and I would have a lot of really unkind, mean things rolling around in my head, and I would just stop talking. I would almost like disengage the argument. And you're like, what are you doing? I'm like, well, I don't have anything kind to say at the moment, so I'm gonna say nothing, right? I didn't want to hurt you and to continue to engage that conversation, so I would just say nothing. Now we've learned, I've matured, I'm not, you know, 20 years old anymore, matured in that. But you've also learned to give me the space to process so that I maybe understand my emotions better and have a better grasp on them and actually being able to have a constructive conversation rather than just this verbal explosion of whatever the emotion may be.

Right. And I remember for me, I was misinterpreting that early on. I thought you were like stonewalling me because you didn't want to have conflict. Maybe you were afraid of conflict. And so I also was uncomfortable with not being on the same page with you. So I, so especially early on, like I was trying to draw that out of you and get you to start talking again, which once I figured out you had a whole bowl of horrible things to say, I was like, man, I don't, I don't think I want her to say anything. I'm good. No, stay quiet. But it was funny how I thought it was a non-confrontational move when for you it was actually, no, you were putting a cork in it.

Mm-hmm.

Out of the whole, like, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. You're like, okay. Perfect. I'm gonna have to shut up then because yeah.

Yeah. But there's that element of growing and maturing and realizing that that was an area of, of weakness for me. And that's not how I wanted to see you or how I wanted to engage conflict. And so I needed to work through that. And, and genuinely, I think it was to not see you as the enemy. Like for some reason, I think we have this in our head, like when we have a disagreement with our spouse, like We become on 2 different sides of the battlefield, right? But really, it's, it's the problem is over here, and we are the army fighting the problem. And so we just have to change the way in which that we look at arguing.

No, I totally agree. All right. Well, let's, let's check out one of these other ones. Ooh, this is a good one. Bottling up our feelings until we explode or react, which perpetuates conflict cycles instead of proactive communication.

Um, you know, I think it's one of those things like when you're have an emotion about your spouse or something that they're doing, not doing, you know, whatever, like maybe not in the exact moment because some more often than not in that exact moment of frustration, we are unkind with our words, but a little bit later or whatever that, that looks like to actually have a conversation and say, hey, when you did or did not do this, you made me feel this. Was that what you were intending?

Mm-hmm.

Right? And I think that, you know, we had a, a mentor teach us that phrase, and I think that's been one of the best things for us to help reiterate the way in which that we felt and the way in which we received whatever just happened. Right?

Mm-hmm.

And I actually think it's, it's eliminated a lot of conflict for us because one of us will go, oh my gosh, no, no, no, no, no. That's not at all what I intended to say. And so you, you understand how what you said got taken. In that moment. And it can actually help reframe that rather than just exploding and being super angry and super mad. It's a—

Because at some level you are assuming. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it's a much calmer way to have a constructive conversation than just exploding at your spouse.

And it gives— it doesn't put them in a box either. Like, it allows them— like, you're saying, hey, When you did this, this is how it made me feel. Is that— so you're giving them, you're giving them the out on like, they can be like, oh, like you said, oh my gosh, no, no, no, no. So it's, uh, it's a really effective tool for sure.

Yeah. And you know, maybe they did mean it and that's a different conversation, right? But I, you know, it definitely helps kind of reframe and head down a more constructive path because the goal of confrontation is not to win. Right? If you're, if you're setting out to win the argument, you've already lost. Like, that is not the goal. I'm a highly competitive person. Trust me, I like to win. But in the middle of a discussion and an argument and whatever, it is not the goal to win that. So we have to go about an argument, a disagreement, a conflict with the goal of restoration and with the goal of being on the same page by the time that this conversation is over and how you start the conversation and And then the way in which that you engage your spouse about that, you have to go about it the right way, right? And I think so often, like, we don't want to rock the boat, we don't want to say that that hurt, so we just stuff it. Specifically, I think as women, we just stuff it and we don't say anything, or then we start nagging and nitpicking, right? And it just starts to keep bottling up. And then on the other side of that, there is this whole like, if you would just quit nitpicking me, I do these things for you, right? And so You have to find this happy medium and you have to also like not hold things against your spouse too.

Mm-hmm.

You, you can't, you can't bring it back up later. One of those rules of engagement for us is like, you don't get to bring back up past stuff if you didn't talk about it. Or just, uh, really in general, like it's about what's happening right now. Like I'm not gonna hold over you what you did 15 years ago. Also like. My memory is trash and I'm not gonna be able to remember that. You might, I won't.

Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. And we got that from our dear friends that if there's something that you didn't mention in the moment, that moment passed, you lost the opportunity. And, you know, then you have to do your own internal processing about it, right? And so I always tell people that I obviously, I don't recommend stuffing emotions, bottling them up. You know, pressure cooking them, because obviously all of those illustrations mean that at some point those things are going to be pretty explosive and going to be destructive. Because the moment that you finally work up the ability to say something, it's typically going to be with so much energy and emotion, and that might be that person's first time hearing about it. It's going to be totally out of the blue and crazy. And like you said, how you say it matters. If you bring it up in the moment, it will be so much easier for you to say with calm emotion than when you're saying it after they do it the 50th time, right?

Yep.

We've talked before about how, you know, identifying what's a me problem versus a you problem, you know, so we won't go into it super in depth right now. But like, for me, it's chewing noises sometimes make me go crazy. That's a me problem. Now you try to help with that. And we try to put ourselves in situations, you know, maybe have the TV going or listening to something while we're eating. And that's just wise, right? And when we're at a restaurant, it usually doesn't matter because there's enough background noise that I don't pick up on it. But there's, there's times where it might— we might be in a unique case where I'm like, is this even worth saying anything? Can I like, can I sneak away and come back without her even noticing? You know, those kinds of things. Like, is that, is that a me problem? Is that a her problem? Do I even need to bring her into this thing? We also have the— with the 4G practice, we also have the 4th one being grace, right? So every single day, Is there someone I need to show grace for? That can be showing someone forgiveness for something. That can be showing someone grace for maybe something they did or even could do that could irritate you. And so, uh, that's a really helpful one to release daily, something that might be pent up to kind of help you flush that system because that matters.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, so that way you don't get into bottling this stuff up. And so for my, for my people that are the personality types that are more adverse to conflict, this is going to be a hard one for you to not bottle up those feelings. There's, there's personality types, there's several that handle these a little bit different that we don't have time to go into today. But it's just funny to watch, like how people tend to— some don't like conflict. So then they turn to manipulation to kind of like, try to see if they can force the person to get that, get the hint or, or make the corrective behavior anyway. That's not healthy either. And the last funny thing is, You know, you say how you say it matters. That matters in the words, but it also matters with, with tone. You communicate so much with body language and tone. And it's funny because when somebody is like, hey, you know, why are you upset? They're like, I'm not upset. You're like, well, you tell your face and your voice and everything about you right now. There's a therapist that, that friend of ours that has a distinction of like harsh startups versus a normal startup, right? And so there's a, there's a huge difference in starting a conversation with your spouse With saying, what the heck is your problem? Versus, hey, is everything okay? You just, you seem on edge. I'm just, you know, like one is way more, way more caring and likely to elicit a more cooperative response, especially maybe if you're worried they might rip your head off than just going toe to toe with just like, all right.

I think the other thing that so much of us, so many of us want to just avoid conflict because it is uncomfortable and it's You know, we, we play all of these scenarios over in our minds over and over and over, right? But how often is it actually completely different than that scenario that you've worked up in your head? Like, it goes way better than whatever it is that you've worked up, whatever conversation that you've had with yourself that you've practiced with this other person. It goes so much better than that. But you know how you get better at conflict and being better at resolving conflict? You get uncomfortable. You get comfortable being uncomfortable.

Right.

It's reps. It's things that you have to just do it. And so I think that that probably became like a mindset shift for us of like, it is okay to have conflict. Like, you don't want someone you never have conflict with. That's also boring, right? It's that whole— back to that whole sparring partner thing. Like, you want someone that you can go toe-to-toe with, but do it in a kind manner. Don't do it below the belt and do it In the moment or within, you know, I don't know, 24 or 48 hours, whatever you decide, whatever you determine your rules of engagement are like that, do it in that timeframe and get comfortable being uncomfortable.

And then also, I mean, that also means that, that it's wise to work on how to receive that, right? Like, yes.

Oh yeah.

You also have to work on, uh, not just the person having the— yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. What, having a listening ear to, to when someone's, and, and people pay attention to that thing. You, Get what you reward. So there was one book that we read where they pointed out that if you're, if you exhibit behaviors of being willing to listen when someone's willing to share with you, then they are likely to share with you more. And so if you demonstrate the ability to listen to your spouse when they're upset, when they need to vent, when whatever, any of those things, then you will get more of what you reward. And that will be, that will be constructive for both of you, I would say. Oh, yeah, that's a good one.

All right.

So dismissing each other's feelings when we disagree or feel differently, instead of trying to understand each other at a deeper level, including our triggers and fears. Now, this one's fun because again, generalities. As men, men like to think of themselves as more logical and analytical and Women get the rap for being more emotional. Now, I've probably triggered like half of YouTube at this point. The point being is I use that specific language on purpose because we're all both in certain arrangements. So what ends up happening is, regardless of what gender we're talking about, is that one of them is expressing frustration. This happens both ways for us, is, uh, and actually likely probably in the reverse because I'm the, I'm the blue, more sensitive one and you're the red nut. And so, you know, you share your frustration, your emotions, you're venting, and the other one is like, this is stupid, or doesn't make sense, or whatever it is, right? And so, it's funny, we're laughing 'cause it happens all the time.

And it happens, yeah, I'm the one that says, this is ridiculous, and yeah.

Right, and I have friends, it's the other way, right? The lady's venting and frustrated, and they're just like, this isn't logical, I mean, you really just need to get over it. And so, the temptation is If you can, you can just explain to them why they shouldn't see it this way, then it all goes away. Obviously, why wouldn't it? That's not how it goes. And that, that person ends up just feeling like you don't care, you're not interested, all the things, right? So how do you not dismiss? Yeah. And so how do you do that?

I'm laughing because this is still one that we continually work through. I think in those situations, I have to stop myself from thinking about all of the ways that I could solve your problem, or why I think that this is ridiculous, or why I think that these emotions are an overreaction, or whatever that my very logical brain says that it should be. And I have to stop and actually listen to what you're saying. Sometimes I have to reframe and ask questions and say, okay, tell me more about this, or hang on a minute, stop, say that again, I didn't understand that, or Maybe like even having you like think about it in a different way, asking, asking questions. Because sometimes I'm like, this is so such an emotional response. Like, I don't know how to, how to not go, this is, this is crazy. But really for me, it's like there's always an underlying something going on. So what is the underlying thing? If we can actually get to the heart of the emotion, There's something like, there's a fear buried there. There's an anxiety buried there. There's a—

A wound, probably. Potentially. Probably. Yeah.

There's always more to it than what lays on the surface and what we actually give to the other person. So because I care about you, and I care about your emotions, and those fears, and those anxieties, and all of those things, we try to figure out and get to what they are. Because rarely is the thing that you are Emotionally having a moment about the actual part of the problem, if that makes sense. And sometimes we have to, you know, talk through to get to, to figure that out.

Mm-hmm.

Um, you know, I, I have some fairly distinct memories of, of these. These are probably the arguments that stick out the most in my mind when I think back over about them, is, is times that I am not empathetic to whatever emotion or feeling that you are having or to a response that you are having, because I'm like, that is so far removed from the response that I would have. But I think, yeah, it, it's back to a thing about being empathetic. And when we're not empathetic, and when we lose the ability to see a situation from the other person's perspective, that's when we get stuck in this, well, this is just stupid. You just shouldn't feel that way.

Well, and there's—

And that does nothing to bond us or to work through the problem or to help just even process those emotions.

So there's 2 things I think about in that everybody's different. Something that triggers or frustrates one person has a likelihood to maybe not bother the other person, right? So the things that make me freak out are probably not going to make you freak out. But then that also means the inverse is also true.

Yeah.

So there are definitely times that you're, you're upset by something and I've had the same exact thoughts.

Right.

Or I'm like, I mean, I think you'd be a lot happier if you didn't let this bother you. Inside voice only, please. Like, right. And so it's one of those thoughts where if, when I've been in that situation, I encounter it with, okay, I mean, we've been in this spot before the other way. And so I'm like, okay, hold on. And like you said, just trying to understand it from the other point of view. And I'll, I'll, I'll— that's the second thing was a funny story. about an irrational fear, right? So I wanted to watch Gravity, right? This movie was gonna be epic, outer space. And you were like, no, absolutely not. Under no circumstance are we watching that. And I'm like, what in the heck? What is going on? I didn't know, but you— Have a fear of outer space, right? I could label that an irrational fear of outer space because I would say your fear of outer space is probably equal to my fear of spiders. Now, the odds of me encountering a spider versus the odds of you accidentally tripping up some stairs, finding yourself in a SpaceX shuttle, and then getting locked in, strapped in, and find yourself in space, it's pretty low odds, right? But that, again, that's funny and we laugh about it, But that still doesn't— none of that logic removes any of the fears attached to it. So because of that, we don't know when those wounds from the past or those other experiences that you don't always have the context or awareness of could cause that reaction in somebody else. And then if you're dealing with somebody with really explosive reactions or a traumatizing past, then that gets a little more serious because a lot of therapists will tell you that when someone encounters a very traumatic experience, then— A part of them freezes at that age, and a lot of those things can, can take place when they're still a child. So if you think someone is being childish or reacting childish to something, um, there's actually something to that. Research suggests that they could be in association with circumstances of that type or something similar that could bring them back to that age, and that's why they're reacting in that way. So it's just important to have the awareness, um, and that, that's why the end of that says, you know, it's, it's important to try to understand each other at a deeper level. Where is this coming from? Like you said, like, what What, what, what doubt, what anxiety, what fear, um, is this tapping into? You know, like I've met a lot of people who have a strong fear of abandonment, which, you know, goes back to parents and things like that. Like, you know, if you felt like you could never trust someone that you loved, well, you don't think that's going to affect your marriage when everyone else, when you were a child, left you or made you feel like they left you, right?

Right.

And so you could interpret some things that your spouse does through that lens and then be fearful or doubtful of the relationship. And things can be uncertain and things like that. So it's funny to, it's funny to laugh about in, in just a conversation like we were talking about, but also there's, there's layers to this and, and it can get, it can be, it can be very, very disruptive, especially if it comes up all the time. So I think we only have time for one more. Um, so yeah, this is a good one to end on. It is, uh, suggesting becoming complacent and just expecting each other to know they're loved.

Mm-hmm.

Rather than making appreciation, affection, and connection a way of life. So like, you know, date nights, those kinds of things. Mm-hmm. It is really easy to drift into not doing anything intentional, right? To not to just, well, I mean, of course, you know, I love you, that kind of thing. Talk a little bit about your thoughts on that, Ashley. Yeah.

And I, we've kind of touched on this topic a little bit in a couple of other podcasts as well, but, um, you, it, it's so easy to just live life side by side and to not intentionally communicate, to not intentionally invest in your spouse. You know, I, I, we make a point every single day, actually at any point in the day when we're like telling each other goodbye or moving into different spaces or hanging up a phone call or any of those kinds of things. Like we make a point to say I love you, even if it's like we're in the middle of something and like, you know, it, it's maybe it even is conflict and we're in the middle of it, but we can't resolve it right then and there. It's still like, hey, I still love you. Because the reality is like tomorrow is not promised.

Yeah.

And you don't want the last thing that you said to someone to be something that's unkind, that it's hurtful to them, that the last memory is something that's very, very painful. Like I would far rather my last words to you be, hey, I love you. And sometimes I'll realize like in the middle of a day, like I don't even know if I've said that To you or not yet, and so I might just randomly text you and be like, "Hey, in case you didn't know, love you." I don't ever want that to be an assumption. I want to continually tell you and reassure you that I love you and care about you. I can be madder than mad at you, but that doesn't change the fact that I love you. And so I think you know it. You always hear and laugh about these stories about these you know old men that never tell their wives they love them. Well, I told you once. Like I I if it changed, I'd let you know, right? Unfortunately, we have short-term memories. Also, we like to know those things, specifically as women. Like, it's an element of being pursued to be told that all the time. Hey, I love you. Hey, you look really good today. Hey, you're having a really good hair day. Hey, whatever way to handle whatever, right? Like, praise and adoration for your spouse is a way in which to bond with them, to continue to build that foundation, to put marbles in the jar, to take your pick of analogies, right? Because the reality is, you know, okay, thinking about the marble in the jar, like, I'm, I'm gonna say things that are gonna take marbles out of the jar. And so how do I, by continually putting things into the jar, into the bank account, whatever, I have this foundation that when I do make a withdrawal I'm not emptying the jar because I've, I've continued to build. I've continued to put that in there. And you know, we're— we have really short-term memories. Like, I can logically know that you love me and that you care for me and that you, you know, love me and appreciate me more than you did 19 years ago, but I need to know that. It's things like randomly sending flowers. Maybe it's things like taking out the garbage without being asked, or it's breaking down the boxes without having to be told for the 27th time. Because we all know everybody's got that one person who does the breaking down of the boxes and the one that chucks them into the garage. I'm the second one. Um, it's, you know, do things. It doesn't have to be these big extravagant things, right? It can be the little minute things of the day. It can be seeing something that you know that your spouse Need— that needs to be done, just doing it without having to be asked. Like, nothing will fill my tank more than just randomly finding something done and being like, hey, thanks. Say thank you. Acknowledge it. Don't just go, well, finally he did something, right? That's bringing up the past. No, no, acknowledge now. Because it— the other thing too is like, as we continue to acknowledge those things We all loved to be loved and to be adored, right? So when I'm when I'm doing something that fills your love tank and you tell me that, I'm gonna just keep doing it. I I want that praise. I want that adoration. So I'll keep doing the thing that you tell me that you like, whatever that that is, right? So communicate those things with your spouse. Look for ways to serve them. I mean, that's really what it is. Like, and sometimes we just have to open our eyeballs. Like, you have to actually like intentionally walk through the house and look for those things, or intentionally. walk through the day and go, ooh, what if, right? If, if we've communicated that we're having a really rough day, or I have had a day and I'm done, like, nothing is better if you went, hey, well, what if we just like picked up Chipotle on the way home? Great, I don't have to cook. It's those little things of thinking about the other person and then verbalizing what those are, or through an action.

Yeah, I thought, I thought of a couple things that are interesting. Like, there's plenty of humans listening to this that one or both of their parents didn't say I love you enough, and you carry wounds from that, right? So if that's true, why would you want to perpetuate that with your spouse, right? You know what it feels like to not get that, that we all crave and want. Like they said, the— what is that quote? Every man wants to be fully known and fully loved. So say I love you. It costs you nothing. Just say it. The other piece is studying your spouse. You kind of touched on it. Good Spouses are ones that study their spouse. It is arguably one of the most important, if not the most important relationship in your life. Why would you not be an expert on it? Like, I don't know about anyone listening, but if you have any fixations, whether that be, I don't know, maybe you know how to really make an amazing coffee and you've got all the gadgets to make sure you get that espresso shot just perfect, or whatever, whatever your fixation is where you are Like, man, tape between the eyeglasses expert at? You should be an expert in your spouse, which also means, you know, there's things like love language and things that you can learn. Why would you not want to be an expert in those things? The more that you can feed into those things, the more of a blessing you're going to get. Like you said, you kind of illustrated it like a, you know, the emotional bank account scenario. It's a pretty common analogy that way. I always want to be on the positive end of that bank account. With my relationships, right? So you try to look for ways to invest and to put them first, to think of them and invest in them first. So, so yeah, become a student of your spouse. That is such a powerful thing that you can do. And again, like you said, I love that you, that you said this and I didn't say it because I say it so often, that start small. This doesn't need to be grand gestures of like, hey, I booked us a cruise to Italy, you know, like if that's your deal, great. With just the day-to-day, just the things that cost absolutely nothing, and then work your way up to whatever. But that being said, these, these small things have a much higher yield more often than, than doing a grand gesture every, you know, 6 months or something. And the last thing I'll say is, remember, any of these things that we talk about, without intentionality, you're just going to be carried down the stream, down with the current of nothing, that complacency where You just end up doing nothing because it legitimately is easier to do nothing than it is to be active. And so you end up being this silent partner that's not engaged with your spouse. And then you hear people say, well, we just drifted apart, or like, I don't know what happened. I don't know who they are anymore, blah, blah, blah. And so just that encouragement to you, it takes effort, it takes intentionality, and it takes awareness to get off of the device or whatever. To focus on your spouse, to do something different, to swim against that current, to use that analogy consistently over time. Just being intentional and doing it that way. And so that will reap huge benefits in your marriage if you let it. So, all right, I think that is it for this time, Ashley.

I think that's good.

Yeah, perfect.

We've got more we can cover another time.

Yeah, for sure. So give us some feedback if you like this, uh, topical bounce back and forth. On a theme like marriage. So yeah, I know, I know we enjoyed it. Thanks for listening to the Optimizing Beyond podcast. Remember, growth happens when you take action. So subscribe, share this with a friend, and most importantly, put what you learned into action because as we know, daily anything changes everything.