The Friendships That Last (Part 1): Eric Dwyer on Grief, Adaptability, and Love After Loss | Ft. Eric Dwyer & Ashley Negron

Welcome back to the show. I've got 2 of my past guests here before. You may recognize, this is my co-host Ashley, and this is Eric Dwyer, who's been on the show previously. We were hanging out this weekend. We thought, what better yet than to let you eavesdrop on a conversation? Who knows where it'll go, but we don't. We love each other and we love to talk, so let's get into it. Welcome to the Optimizing Beyond podcast. I'm Josh Negron, and this show's all about sharing lessons, ideas, and strategies that sharpen your thinking, strengthen your habits, and push you to grow beyond comfort zones. Let's dive in. Now, we've all been friends for a very long time, over 2 decades at this point. We all went to college together, and that, as much as I don't want to admit it, has been a little longer than I want to admit. And so in that, we've seen a lot of different seasons in our relationships in times that where we were single people to where we weren't single, even though Eric still was. And, and then into, into marriages, careers, all those things. And now into new seasons with transition and loss. And we've talked to both before on the show. about many times about optimizing relationships. And, and a part of that is going to be different seasons. I mean, nope. And so I had a rabbit hole I almost dove in and I was like, no, no, I'll, I'll save that for another day. Are you talking about the perimenopause season? No, no, I'm absolutely not going to say that. Totally different person right now. I think the algorithm is picking up on it because it's, uh, it had one the other day. Uh, I think it's— I think I said it to you, but it was a husband eating a bowl of cereal in like a ceramic bowl. And so the, the spoon was like— and he's like, how do you know your wife is in perimenopause? And it was like, though, there will be signs.

And she was like, if you don't stop scraping against that bowl, I'm gonna come in there.

Yep, that's it.

There have been some times that I'm like, keep your mouth shut. This is a you problem. Because the way that you say this is going to be so unkind and rude. Just shut your mouth.

Listen, I think the world would be a lot better place if everybody had a filter that went, this is a me problem and it does not need to be spoken about.

It's real. Like, I've always had the mouth sound like where it's like nails on a chalkboard thing. And but for me, at this stage in my life, it's like, okay, can I, can I move into another room? Can I turn something on? You know, is there something that I can do to make this me problem, not a them problem. Because usually at that point, your fury in those, you know, if it's your pet peeve or whatever, it's gonna, you're gonna be from 0 to 1,000 in, in 0.3 seconds. And you're like, you can have some like pretend conversations in your head of telling them and you're like, none of them are kind. So. Oh no.

There was one night laying in bed, we were praying and you would not stop moving your legs. And I thought, he does it. I'm like, there is no kind way.

I cannot connect with the Lord right now.

There is no kind way that this is going to come out of my mouth, so I'm going to just keep my mouth shut. But it was like, oh my God, let me just stop moving. I'm going to kill him.

Could you tell?

I had not known.

Yeah, he was like, amen, Nart. I love it.

Okay, on to a new rabbit hole.

Yeah, grab and hold.

Seasons, right?

Getting old. New fun seasons.

That's right. That's right.

Yeah.

Well, something like we've seen seasons with like me becoming a parent, right?

Yeah.

When, when Sarah and I were like, our families adapt, we add, we subtract as, as units.

Which was pretty unorthodox. I mean, well, in, in the context of being foster parents.

Yeah.

Like, uh, we would visit you guys every 6 to 12 months depending. And it's not typical for a family to have a different child, you know?

Yeah.

And so that was definitely—

It was almost like adaptability was, was built into it for a long time.

Yes, it was. Yeah. Well, and then even like what we would do when we would come hang out, like, I think, you know, like some years it was like, okay, we are all gonna go and we're gonna go float the river, right? And we're gonna go do whatever. And then some years it was like, okay, Sarah wasn't healthy enough to do that, or it was way too much rain, or, you know, like for a myriad of reasons. But we've just had to adapt what it is that, you know, it's not like, oh, this is the tradition. No, the tradition is we're just hanging out spending time together.

We can't canoe, so we can't hang out.

Right, right. So, you know, it's, it's that adaptability. Yeah. That I feel like has been just baked into, baked into our friendship. And I think that starts like as college kids because you have to be super adaptable and flexible, and your life is changing literally every 6 months because you're moving in and out of the dorm, like, you know, like in that way.

So here's a— here's an interesting question then I'm just going to add to the group. You're right, at college you— everybody's kind of starting fresh, and so you have this flexibility built in. But then once you leave, a lot of those— the very thing that makes some relationships stay strong loses some, you know, people that you're like, dude, we were like best friends and I haven't talked to you in years.

Yeah.

Like I've had, I've had friends that, that I lived with that haven't reached out to me over anything from the adoption to anything. And I don't fault them for that. It's just a, you know, they've lived their life and I'm sure they're probably praying for me and I them. And I see them on like Facebook every once in a while, but it's really just that. So why do some lean into flexibility and continue to grow stronger, whereas some that had the same starting flexibility point Just don't get to that point. I don't know the answer to that. It's almost like you, you gotta pick who to be flexible with. You can't be too flexible with so many different people, right? You gotta dial in on it. Yeah, I don't know.

It's seasons of life can change with that too, right? Like, you know, I think people's flexibility gets less as they have kids, and the more that you add, the less flexible that you become.

Yeah.

Whereas for Josh and I, it's like we kind of have quote unquote ultimate flexibility with not having any kiddos. But that also means that you have to be intentional and you have to plan it and you have to be okay being the one texting and saying, hey, we want to come see you. When can I come?

Right.

Right? Or like, because it's so easy, I think we get busy and distracted and we even spent time with some friends a few weeks ago that I was like, We haven't hung out in like 2 years. How is that possible? Right, right. Like, because it just— life just keeps getting busier and faster, and I don't know where time is going.

Time goes faster.

And so, you know, I think unless you're intentional and you, you listen to those prompts of like, hey, I need to text this person, or hey, I need to reach out to this person, like, I think, I think we're given those moments and we have to be willing to do them.

Yeah, I think distance probably also is a factor. Yeah, you know, things are flexible, but the more distance there is, the less flexibility there is because you have to be more intentional about planning to go see people on the other side of the country. And so since we've, we've only ever been about 3 hours away from each other, it's a little easier to do weekends like this one, right?

Well, and that's the, that's the cost, right? Like, we— there's 2 things I thought about when you guys were talking. The first one is That intentionality piece. Like we, we chose to make a tradition to come down at least every Memorial Day, uh, sometimes even Labor Day. Right. So it was like, depending on the seasons or whatnot and, and the need, but there was this, this, this commitment to, to come down and spend time with you guys. Right. And it sounds weird to say, but like, it's like we could have been doing other things or seeing, seeing other people. The second thing, and I don't know if I'm making that point well enough, but the, the, the second one that I thought of was to a certain extent, having a bunch of relationships that you have a lot of depth with is pretty rare and not normal. You know what I mean? Like it's either the social butterfly who doesn't have hardly any deep relationships, but is everyone's acquaintance. But, but your, your, your, your typical scenario is, you know, you're the, you're the person, you become the person of the 5 people you surround yourself with, right? So I don't think you can go very deep with, with more than 5 to 10 people. And so I think because of that, people have to kind of choose, you know, at college, you're kind of like, you're in a dorm, you're in a dorm.

Yeah, they're all stacked on top of each other. You can pick 5 per floor.

Yeah.

5 a week, you know?

Yeah.

And there is, there is something like you're in a unique scenario where you're in a lot of close, close proximity to a lot of people.

Yeah.

But once you leave that college experience, then, you know, whether it's a dorm or a frat house or something, or even if you have 4 roommates, you know, but at that point, when you get married, and you guys have your own lives, and you kind of go parallel, if you don't have that intentionality, like I mentioned in the first point, you pretty much have to choose those 5 to 10 relationships. That you're going to be intentional with. And then that's— so I think that also plays into falling, falling out, falling out of touch. Yeah, not falling out in like a conflict way, but falling out of touch with some is what it made me think about when you guys were talking.

And phones go two ways. Facebook posts go two ways. You know, it's like, I want to reach out to them, but I think, oh man, it's been so long. Would it be weird? You know, and then they're probably thinking the exact same thing. I want to reach out, but I haven't reached out to them in so long. Would it be weird?

And that's an important point that she made in the commitment to listening to the small prompts. All right, I can't count the many times that I've thought of someone inexplicably, and then messaged them. And I happened to catch them, you know, I don't believe that's a coincidence. And I don't think any person of faith does either. And so we made a commitment about 8 years ago that we were gonna act on as many small prompts that we were aware of. And I don't think I've ever regretted those prompts.

I haven't either. There are some that I don't understand and I'm like, that's a bit awkward. But so some of those are out there and maybe a year or two later, I get it. But I still got about 6 or 7 that are up in the air. And I'm like, I don't know, maybe I'll find out why. Maybe I won't.

Yeah, yeah, we might.

Yeah.

And it, it, it plays into not being, not being prideful in the relationship or not keeping score. Right? Because, because you mentioned, you know, phones go both ways. And Ashley said it this way, in that regardless of if you've been asked, Doesn't matter. You ask.

Yeah.

I don't think, I don't think anyone's ever going to be mad at you for you letting them know that you want to hang out with them. Even if the answer is no. Oh, I'm so sorry, we can't make it. Sure. You know, so you have to kind of like, remember, control what you can control, which is you asking. And their answer has everything to do with them.

Yep.

You know, and people are like, well, I'm only— I'm— this is like, I asked 5 times in a row. Okay.

I mean, so maybe it's 7. Go ask.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's— I'm not saying that that's, that's always easy because sometimes, sometimes it does feel one-sided and you're like, gosh, like, like, I want to be—

I want to be wanted. Like, I want, I want you to want to hang out with me. Right, right, right. But also in learning, like, even just— I had a conversation with my sister a few weeks ago and I was— she said something. I was like, you know, like, we need to hang out, whatever. And she's like, Well, you know you can just ask me, right? And I'm like, I know, but you're busy and I don't want to be intrusive and whatever. And she's like, just ask. She goes, it's not one of my strong suits. She's like, I'm not— not that I don't want to hang out. She's like, I just don't think to ask to hang out.

Sure.

She's like, text me, ask, invite yourself over. Put yourself in that position. And initially I was a little frustrated. Then I'm like, okay, fine, I will. Right? And since then we've hung out a couple of times because I'm like, hey, what are you up to? Like, I'm fine. I will just insert myself.

She gave you that permission?

Yeah, she gave me that permission.

And then the goal is to hang out with this person and establish a connection and you achieve that goal.

Correct.

And I love her admission of it not being her strong suit. Like I had one of my greatest friends, the best man at my wedding, shout out, you know who you are, Matt. He said He was very honest from the beginning. He's like, hey, I'm a military kid. I— when I— when it's out of sight, out of mind, if I don't see you, I won't think of you. It's not personal. It doesn't mean that we didn't have something awesome or that we still do, you know what I mean? And like, and I've always kept that in my mind. And then anytime we reconnect, I remember that.

You pick up right where you left off. Yeah, I've got friendships like that too. Like, it doesn't matter. the distance or time, you see them and you're like, this is, this is like we were, we're still back when we first met.

Not—

we've matured and grown, right? You know, not like suddenly I've—

But it's not this weird awkward like dance to get back into, right? It's— there's something different to— I sometimes I hate going to like things with people that like I grew up with, or like even like sometimes like college reunion-y kinds of things, 'cause everybody's like, oh my gosh, how are you? What are you up to? Right? It's like, I didn't really hang out or spend time with you then.

Sure.

So like, I have a hard time being overly like real and invested in that conversation, 'cause it's— I'm like, we didn't really like— we don't have a lot of common ground to like, or this depth of— it was only ever surface level.

History.

Yeah, there's no depth of history. Whereas like, you know, there are on a handful, of friends that I could reconnect with, and immediately it would be back to this. Like, it wouldn't take 7 seconds to catch back up, right? Like, yes, there may have been times that, like, we were only physically hanging out, you know, 2 to 3 times a year, but it was like we never skipped a beat.

Yeah.

Ever. Or it was like, you know, we were texting enough to, like, keep that, keep that friendship always moving. In, in those things. And so, yeah.

I've got— I've had a friend that— I mean, I'm friends with him on Facebook. I met him at a wedding, and I only like hung out with him at that wedding, but he and I were like best friends at that wedding, to the point where our wives were like, I don't know what's going on with our husbands. They're like bromancing hard, right? It was amazing. And I look back at that and I'm like, I had the best time. with that dude in that moment, and I have not been in the room with them ever since because we came back to Mountain Home. The people, the people whose wedding we were there for, we— they were mutual friends, and we just like locked, like locked in for about 2 hours. And then I was like ready to like plan a vacation with this dude, and then it's like, that was fun. And I look back at that and I go, that was so weird how I connected so deeply, but it only It only lasted a short amount of time. I still, I still like wish him a happy birthday on Facebook, but that's, that's all that ever was. But it's still special.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, getting, getting into the practical side of this, you know, obviously this year you've gone through hardship, right? And so I think, I think Ashley mentioned it when we were talking about asking for, like her feeling weird about her asking and interrupting her sister's life, right? And so, you know, especially, you've been, you've been in this community for almost 20 years, there's a tremendous amount of people who care a lot for you. But when someone's going through something tragic, like losing a loved one, they, you know, people, people, their hearts go out to that person. And they're like, okay, I, I want, I want him to know I'm thinking about him, praying for him, whatever. They also I feel like to a certain extent, hesitation gets built into that, you know, because they're like, well, I want to reach out, but I don't know what to say. Yeah, I know people say stupid stuff, because when I went through something hard, someone said something dumb to me, and I didn't like that. So I don't want to be that way to that person. So how has it— how has it been for you? I mean, obviously, you're on the other end of this. But, you know, what would you— what words of encouragement would you say to people who They want to reach out, love on you or someone in an area that went through something similar.

So you said something that I never really quite put words to, but it's been something that I've been intentional about. Like some people don't want to say stupid things, right? Like, oh man, me and my stupid mouth. Well, I try not to have stupid ears. You know, some of that is on the receiver as well. If the person says something Take it for what it— for what it is. They're reaching out. I think we had a flood of people, got cards, people that I don't even know that were sending us things. And I didn't go, you don't know anything, or you don't— you didn't know—

like that.

You just go, this is awesome. Like, you, you throw it on the pile of things that were— were somebody saying that they loved you. So yes, we try to pretend like we don't have stupid thoughts that we say to ourselves in these, in these difficult times. So it's like my job is to make sure that I'm not thinking things that aren't helpful and not hearing things that other people aren't saying. And then if I'm not going to listen, it's the old adage, if I'm not gonna listen to somebody's advice, why would I listen to their criticisms?

Yeah. You know?

And so it's like some people say something and I'm like, it's a bit odd, but, but at least it was something that was said. They could have said nothing.

Well, it's, it's one of the things we've talked about before on the podcast of assuming positive intent.

Yeah.

You know where their heart is at.

Yeah.

You know, they're, they're, they've worked up the courage to even say something to you.

Sure, sure.

Right. And yeah, it doesn't come out maybe the way that they intended or it, it fell flat or whatever, but you're right. It's that, hey, I love you enough to say something, or I'm thinking about you, or I've been praying for you, or hey, I went through something similar, right? Like, it's their way of trying to even connect.

Correct. And I would say I didn't experience anybody say anything that was hurtful, or it was just encouraging. And it was encouraging from their perspective, from what they knew of loss. They, they said things that, like, I don't know, I wasn't like, I never got a letter and was like, what is this? Or I was never offended by anybody in the moment or whatever. It's like, I don't know. It may have been, oh, surprising. Maybe a little bit shocking. Like, oh, I wasn't expecting that. But it didn't mean it wasn't helpful in the moment. I just kind of think it's beautiful still.

I wonder, this is a super random thought. I wonder if some of that difference, maybe part of it is your listening ears, right? But Sarah had had a long battle and a long journey. And so I wonder if it's different, that versus like someone who loses somebody unexpectedly, tragically. Like, you know, it's that whole like, well, at least they didn't suffer, or, you know, or at least, you know, whatever. Any, any sentence that begins with at least— Anything that says at least. Don't even start it. But I just, I have to wonder if maybe that was some of it, is like people had watched your journey and watched the way in which that she suffered well and that you took care of her well. And so like, if that, that encouraged people in a, in a way, like, to, to know, like, if it's— that's ever my turn, like, I want to do that in that same way. Like, I want to suffer well and I want to care well.

There's a strong inspirational component.

Yeah. So I, I wonder if some of that I don't know.

That's a super reason to reach out. There, I also, we talk about the person going through the grief, receiving other people's bad word or like words that they're like, what did I say that for? I feel so dumb. You know, but sometimes the person grieving says things that don't make sense to the other people. Like the, uh, I was, I met up with somebody. This was about a month after Sarah passed. And because again, back because this has been years long, they've been praying for you know all this, but they hadn't gotten the news yet just because they weren't on Facebook during over like she passed in January. So they were like, well, for holidays I'm just gonna dial in on family, right? Yep. And so then I see them and they're like, how's Sarah? And I was like, dude, she's all better. And they're like, that's awesome. And I was like, oh, it's like you don't you don't know what I mean. I mean like she's resurrected. She's with the Lord now. And they were like, oh my gosh. I was like, I was like. I'm the one saying the dumb thing. So I was like, she's, she's great, you know, we're happy for her, she's free.

And they're like, oh man, what do you know, miracle cures.

I was like, oh wait a minute, we're in different libraries, right? We're not interested in the same thing. And I felt bad because I was like, I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to put you in that position.

Right.

As they were trying to say something to me. So I don't know, it's— we just got to give each other Grace. Yeah. You know, I forgot about that until you said, 'cause I mean, she'd been like one of the people that was praying for us. Yeah. And I, I thought I was saying something like encouraging, like, isn't Jesus so amazing? And she was like, her eyes got really big and, and I thought, oh no, I think I may have caused confusion.

It wasn't that funny.

It was, it was a big, and they were like, no, we were in line and there's other people like behind the counter who were just like listening to this and they're like, oh my gosh.

One of our, one of our dearest friends, she, she, she, she's very aware of embarrassment.

Yeah.

And even, even secondhand embarrassment. And I only mention this because she, she has a phrase when she gets embarrassed enough. She, her wish is to turn into bats and fly away.

Yeah. I was very batty in that moment.

I was like, we even like have this thing among our friends that everybody goes, and bats, like, and out. And we're out.

I think there's just a lot of different, all the different emotions that you try to get to the seat, the root of all these emotions is, is care. And I think our, our friendship has been able to go through the, all of these things together because, you know, how do you, how does your friendship adapt after a stage of this into a new, yeah, uh, a new season? And I think part of it is you grieved with us all along the way.

Yeah.

You know, from diagnosis to custody battle to all of these things.

Yeah.

You, because of the proximity and the flexibility that we had in our friendship, you were with us every step. So you just went one step further. Yeah.

Right.

Whereas some people may not have heard, but heard the news and they're like, we're so sorry. And they're trying to go from here to here.

Mm-hmm.

Whereas you guys were in the room like the whole time. Yeah.

You know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of value in, from what I, what I hear you say there is like, there's a lot of value in Relationships that have a lot of common understanding.

Yep.

There's— it's like the picture worth a thousand words, right? Like when the understanding is so deep that words aren't needed in a certain context. Yeah, that's—

Well, and I wonder too, like, you know, we always made a point to like to just be present and to let Sarah bring it up if that's the conversation she wanted to have.

Right.

Like, I'm gonna ask you later, right? Like, hey, where, where are we actually at? Like, what's, you know, be— let's be 100% real in this moment. But I would let Sarah guide that conversation because I knew her deepest desire was to not feel like the patient.

Yeah.

And to not be treated with like weird kid gloves, it only just made her angry. And so, like, just to be— yeah, to just be present, to not let it be different. Like, we did the same things, or as much as we could, the same things that we had been doing for the last 20 years.

And somehow she still won the board games, you know.

Yeah, she would. She'd kick our butt.

But I never, I never won anyway, so that's all right.

You know. Is— so Is that— is that— do you think— I mean, you've been a minister a long time. And so you, you've also helped other people through grief. And so my specific question that I'm wondering about here is, because I think about Sarah and how she didn't want— she valued normal interactions that weren't about, you know, hey, hey, how's the cancer? You know?

Yeah.

And we, and I think of another relationship that we have of, uh, of a dear friend of ours who lost her daughter. And she, she changed churches, not because she changed churches because there was so much of like, oh my gosh, how are you doing? And she's like, when one person asks you that, you feel seen, valued, heard, whatever. When 400 people ask you that every week, she She's like, I gotta get out of here. And so how do you see that from being on both sides?

So I think honestly, I don't see it as if one— so if one person asks how I'm doing and it's like, I feel seen, then I feel seen times 400 if it's 400 people asking. I don't like— but everybody's different. They may not want that. But I just go, man, think of the people that still care. Like if somebody asks in 2 months, hey, how are you doing? That means it's still, we're still on their mind. It's not because anybody's trying to, I'm not trying to just bury it all and get past it. But there are, there are things about grief, especially when something like this happens, that come out in 3 months, in 5 months, in 6 months. You know, like last month we got a bill from The hospital— I say we, it's me and Cadence— but like the bill came to our household, and it was like every once in a while some crummy stuff comes out in 5 months. So the more people say, how are you doing? How are you doing? How are you doing? I've just— I've— and assume good intentions that they're asking because they care. And I'm like, man, I got a lot of people who care. So just my style, I guess. is to not see that as a negative, but as a just more, more wind behind the sails that people are carrying and people are pushing forward. And I know that there are people that aren't asking me, but they are asking other people around me.

They're asking your sphere.

Yes. What I'm really hoping is they're not asking my daughter, you know, that they're not like, how's your dad? Because that's not her main concern. I don't want her to be burdened by that. No.

And neither did her mom. Her mom was very adamant about, do not ask my daughter how I'm doing.

Yeah, yeah. So, and, and I would still like that for her because I want her to— now, if somebody, you know, if she wants to say something, that's, that's fine. But, uh, I, I do the care with my counseling, with my friendships, with my faith community, and my relationship with the Lord so that my daughter, who I'm sure still no matter what is going to be worried about me because she loves me, Yeah. I don't want her to like, oh no, are— what are other people noticing if they're asking me?

Yeah.

But, uh, but I do know that other people like, yeah, so-and-so asked about you. I'm like, oh, awesome. You know, like they just felt like it was safe to ask the person they knew better than— Than you.

Than you. Yeah.

Yeah.

And, uh, I just kind of say, that's, that's just incredible. I don't know. It always makes me feel encouraged because again, there's always something like in a month or so that's going to be— well, like, we have memories in August.

Yep.

Like, when I'm on Facebook and, like, memories pop up from August or trips that we've taken, it's like, that's like— we go through this together because a lot of those are shared memories. And when they pop up, I'll be like, hey, today's the day that we kind of go through this together. So yeah, I think if things are going to be positive in the future of people asking how you're doing, that sort of balances out. It's a mix. It's always a mix.

How has it been for— so I'll share for us, like, we've realized that we grieve differently. You know, we lost, we lost my mom a couple years ago. And that was, that was the closest relationship that, that we had suffered that with together. And we realized, okay, and then this year with, with Sarah and Justin, Um, we realized that it took, it took a little extra grace with each other, recognizing that, you know, yes, we're both hurting, and we're both hurting about the same things. But they're the— it's manifesting differently. The timing is different. Like what reminds one of all that pain and causes the, the emotions in that moment, the other one could be pretty Pretty cold in the moment.

Sure.

And then vice versa.

Yeah.

You know, um, and so it's, it, it was, there were moments, especially earlier in this year where it was like, sometimes you, you feel like that person, uh, you feel more isolated than you want because you're like, gosh, we're sharing this. This is, we're both going through the same thing. But why do I feel, why do I feel more alone than I should?

Mm-hmm.

Uh, I guess it's probably, if I could condense it into a sentence. So I had wondered, you know, obviously you and her are going, you know, through the same thing, obviously same household. Yeah. Have— is it been similar for you guys?

We have different grieving styles because we have different maturity levels. I'm not— my daughter is not in any way like a toddler. You know, she's 12 years old, but she— and she's very mature for her age. She's experienced a lot going through the foster care system. She's seen a lot. So But we are different, and so we will be going through the grieving process differently. But we do have a phrase. We've made it abundantly clear, everybody grieves differently. And if you want to, you know, she was wondering about the people that use happy memories, and I said, well, a lot of people have more happy memories to pull from because they've known your mom a whole life, whereas you have fewer. You've got good happy memories, but you don't have 37 years of happy memories to pull from. And they're like, oh, don't you remember this? Don't you remember this? So they have more, more of a deep well to draw from. And so if you're grieving differently, that's just you have a different relationship with this person than anybody else, and you've lost a different future with this person than anybody else has. So you almost have to grieve Differently. And whenever I said, I basically made it okay to grieve differently, then that connected us deeper. And the phrase is just, I really miss mom a lot today.

Yeah.

And that, that way the other person knows, you know, if I'm, if I'm a little off or if I'm just like, you know, in my room or if I'm, you know, if I just wanna hug or something like that, it's like, just missing her extra today. 'Cause you miss her every day. But you just miss her extra. And it's like, okay, you just need some extra, and I've got extra for you. Because this was the conversation I have with people now, as I say, this is love that we used to give to a person that now we can give to each other. So if you need extra love, I've— you're— you've got more of it now. I'm not going to love bomb you and smother you and like, you have to receive my love, you know. But it's like, but it's like, you know, whenever it used to be 3 people sharing love in a household, and now it's 2, and one person says, I need extra love. You go, well, here's something that I used to give this person that now I can give to you if you need. We've got plenty. There's plenty to go around. And when you start framing it that way, it's less of a— it's not like, well, I don't want to be a burden because I need— because I'm missing this person.

Right.

It's bank's full. It's like, I'm hungry. Okay, the pantry's full. Go buy snacks because there used to be 3 people eating. Now there's only 2 people eating. There's plenty of food in the pantry. Go for it. It's that way emotionally. I'm feeling this love for hunger, love hunger, and you're like, okay, there's plenty supply because the Lord replenishes supply. Our faith community replenishes the supply. It's just, it's not— I think people are scared to— they have a scarcity mindset with their grief, a scarcity mindset with their emotions.

Yeah.

Is this a space where Or do I need to make myself less? And so when you're a, a leader in any capacity, you say, in fact, this is a normal emotion. You're allowed to feel it. And it's my job to make sure you got the space to feel it because I feel it too. And I'm not gonna pretend like I don't.

Yeah.

And so our community feels it. You, we've walked through it together. There's space for you to give your grief with me because I don't hold my grief permanently. Right. I, I take it somewhere. And drop it off there. So if you— I'm like, oh, we're grieving. Well, let's just make this a trip where we all go together to the same place where we go every day. And there's something, there's something that's even more bonding about that.

What about the culture? You know, the cliché, it's okay not to be okay, exists because the culture— I mean, I would say probably more for men than for women in a certain context, but it applies broadly too, that at some point, whether the pressure is real or perceived— I mean, obviously when you suffer loss, at some point— I had someone tell me who lost her dad many years ago say it gets the most difficult after everyone leaves after the funeral. After the funeral's done and the family leaves and then everyone goes back to their lives and yours is the only one drastically different is when it gets most difficult. And I think people, again, and I say that very intentionally, that whether it's actual pressure to be okay or perceived pressure from the world, you're like, everyone else is getting on with their lives. less and less people are following up. You're getting less and less cards, right? And so—

People aren't inviting you over as much. The food stops showing up, like practical things to keep you moving forward.

Supported, you know? I feel like no one's gonna, unless they're a really shiesty person, no one's gonna look at someone who lost someone and go, my gosh, it's been 3 years. So like, get over it, you know?

Yeah.

But to a certain extent, I think I've heard people tell me, like, I still miss X, like I lost them yesterday. And it's been 15 years, you know. And so in your grief share classes and things like that, have there been discussions around like giving it space to have the— especially as a man, giving the space to have the emotions? It's okay to cry. Like, have there— how, what have you learned in those?

Well, I've learned that, you know, the emotions, the more you fight them, It's like the, the wave is just going to keep pushing and it will win. And so it will get worse. The more you try to prevent it from happening, the more the buildup, and then the, the bigger the blowup, right? So it's like, feel it. You got it. You've just gotta, you gotta ride that wave.

Mm-hmm.

Grief. One of my, my former elders from my church growing up, very wise man, he, he said, you know, grief will be an uninvited guest. That shows up at your door, and you just got to sit with him until he decides he's done with you for the moment, because the more you fight that uninvited guest, the worse he treats you. And then when he decides, I'm done with this guy, he's not, you know, he's— we're just sitting here. And I don't fight it, not just because I want it to go away, but because grief is a teacher, and The scripture says that God is close to the brokenhearted, so when I feel brokenhearted, I can't just try to pretend like that's not, because that uninvited guest may be the invited God that I have been asking for, because he's close to the brokenhearted, and when I'm brokenhearted, that he's there, and I say, well, I don't want your friend grief, and he goes, well, I'm here with him, and so if you shut everything out, you're not receiving the help that you may need, and other people, other relationships, Friendships are grieving too.

Yeah.

You know, the couple friends that you sometimes hang out with, they're like, man, this is different, and they are mourning the loss. I've had couples friends who, like, me and the dude would hang out and Sarah and the wife would hang out. You know, we'd all get together and eat and then we'd separate. And then the first time we got back together again after her passing, I went over to their house because it was like, we've just got to do this. It was intentional. It was beautiful. It was It was difficult because we— that 4th chair is really empty.

Yeah.

And then my friend and I went to have our, like, our guy time, and I came back and I was like, this has got to be hard for you on a different level than it is for us. Yeah, obviously it's hard for me on a different level because I've lost my wife, but whenever I come over to your house, it used to be, we're gonna do this, and now we know the drill, we're gonna have this routine. And, but the fact that my friend was still like, like they were over at my house 2 nights ago to have a meal, cuz it's like, this is still good. It's still, it's still healthy. It's different and it's never gonna be the same, but it can still move forward different. And the best friendships adapt and go with you on that.

Mm-hmm.

They were also people that were with us the entire way. Mm-hmm. Who made space and said, what's your diet? So that when you come to eat, yeah, we know what you can eat.

Like, yep.

These people that are grieving with you and, and flexible with you the entire time, then they will be flexible with you into the next stage. A lot of times if people aren't on that level with you, they tend to be like, okay, well, I guess this— it was fun, and it has been, but now this is where we've got to try to maybe dial in in other ways.