The Friendships That Last (Part 2): Eric Dwyer on Grief, Adaptability, and Love After Loss | Ft. Eric Dwyer & Ashley Negron

Well, I've learned that the emotions, the more you fight them, it's like the wave is just going to keep pushing and it will win. And so it will get worse. The more you try to prevent it from happening, the more the buildup and then the bigger the blowup, right? So it's like, feel it. You got it. You've just got to ride that wave. Whenever I said, I basically made it okay to grieve differently, then that connected us deeper. And the phrase is just— I remember that. I really miss mom a lot today. And that way the other person knows if I'm, if I'm a little off or if I'm just like in my room or if I'm, if I just wanna hug or something like that. It's like, I'm just missing her extra today. 'Cause you miss her every day, but you just miss her extra. And it's like, okay, you just need some extra and I've got extra for you.

Welcome to the Optimizing Beyond podcast. I'm Josh Negron, and this show's all about sharing lessons, ideas, and strategies that sharpen your thinking, strengthen your habits, and push you to grow Beyond Comfort Zones. Let's dive in.

So you also said that it's, it's okay to not be okay.

Mm-hmm.

What I have found is that there are also times when people are a little— they're happy, but they're also like, oh, like relieved. They're like, oh my goodness, I'm glad that, that things are, are going As well as they can be going in a time like this, because we've gone to see counselors collectively, Cadence and I. I'm not saying everything is all roses and it's like nothing happened, right? But there's rebuilding happening, and there's laughter. There is—

Making new memories.

Making new memories, going on trips, doing these things. These are still happening. And some people are a little confused. They're relieved, but they're also like, Oh, I've never seen this before. And I think it's actually what I'm, what I'm finding is it's, it's okay to be okay. Because we talk about it's okay not to be okay. And that's true.

Sure.

But if you are putting in the work and you've got a faith community, I think it's okay to be okay because that means I've, I've, we spent our lives being surrounded by people that were there to pick up the rubble.

Yep.

And did we want this? No. But the people from, from the college community that we were a part of, like president on down, like everybody has been nothing but helpful, and that makes it okay. And the— I know there are people that I know who just, they, they look at that and they go, I don't want what you went through, but if I do, I want what you have.

Yeah.

No doubt. And I have to realize that I don't have to pretend to be sadder than I am for other people's comfort.

Yeah.

That's—

oh man, that's— that is good.

I also think some of that is like, you know, I've thought several times about things and I'm like, man, Sarah would be so frustrated. I would not be honoring her well. If I wallowed in the fact that I miss her.

Yeah, no, she would— she's not going to be over it.

She would be so mad. She would not— so to honor her well, she would want you to be doing exactly the things that you're doing and investing in Kate the way that you are and allowing people into your life and letting people show up and letting people support you and investing in those things. those are the things that she wanted for you. And I know that she prayed ahead of time for those things, like asking the Lord to give that. And so I think there's that component of honoring her well.

Sure.

By not being sad, yes, and having those moments of like— what's funny is you said that like, I'm, I'm missing Mommy extra today. Like, they're a good—

That's my words.

So good.

Like, I say I'm missing Mommy extra because that, that's, that's how you think that's how the 12-year-old girl says it. That's how the 21-year-old man says it.

So, you know, but what's funny is you said that, and there have been days I have looked at him and said, I just miss my friend a lot today. Yeah, yeah, same. But it's that extra grace required, and he knows, okay, you— I need to be a little extra supportive today. Like, I need to, to give you a little bit more, or a little bit more space today, or whatever that emotion is in the moment. But I also think there is something to honoring well and, you know, to, to living out the things that Sarah showed us well.

Yeah.

And the way in which that she clung to the Lord and that relationship that she had with him and like the peace that she had, like from, from get-go, day one of MS diagnosis. We're not even talking about cancer diagnosis, MS diagnosis. Like she was like, Okay.

Okay.

If this is what you're asking of me, I'm here. Yeah.

And that's a gift that you actually end up giving other people. It's a gift for you as you go through it, but it's also a gift for the others that love you.

But I think she had grieved the way that her life was going to change for a long time.

Sure.

So I think, you know, none of us maybe saw it coming as fast as it did, Yeah. Right?

Yeah. Not even the doctor.

And, you know, but I also think it was one of those things if she went, it's okay. Yeah. I'm, I'm ready to go. And now on this side of it, it is our turn to share and swap stories and, you know, even like telling her dad stories. Yeah. The things that she did in college and the, the prankster that was Sarah. Right? Yeah. But like honoring the way that she suffered well by living that out, continuing to live that out well.

Yeah. And I think there's also something to be said for when you, when you do those, it's because it's not because you're still trying to honor some, like a person that can, as like a ghost who's right there over your shoulder.

Right.

Then I know that's not what you're saying, but I want to be clear to anybody listening. It really is It's honoring them because of how far you've walked with that person and how much they've become a part of you.

Yep.

That's how it honors them. It's almost like, you know, I'm still— I'm still— you walked into my house and you said that my house still smells the same. And I was like, it's because I just buy the same candles. No, I'm just— I'm going to keep buying the same things because, one, it's a beautiful scent. It's now the scent that I like. And I'm not doing that because You know, I, I have some mental image of this disembodied spirit being like, that's right, that's the Bath and Body Works flavor. It's the— it's really just because of how much we've been a part of one another.

Yeah.

That, that's now just part of moving forward is still doing that.

Yep.

So again, sometimes people get stuck in the so-and-so wouldn't want me to do this or would want me to do this, and that they are— they're no longer in the decision-making process. If they're with the Lord, they're very busy doing a whole bunch of other much better things than checking in on us.

Yes, thinking about what you're not doing.

So I am happy that she's where she is now, but the things that I do then, if I don't just do them because that's who I am, because that's who we were, then that's also like it could be something that's keeping me stuck in a spot of grief. If I'm filtering everything through what somebody else would've done.

There's definitely a balance there.

Yeah, there, there is. Yeah, there is.

Yeah.

I mean, there are times like that I've gotta lean into it because I'm, I'm not a mom.

Right.

And so there's times when I'm like, oh, I've gotta talk about this. How would Sarah mom? Like, that's, that's okay. That's like, I, we've talked about, because we had conversations about, hey, at this stage, consider this or try this. I'm like, okay, I'm trying to remember what the advice I was given by her mother. So I think, what would Sarah do for this situation? That's different. Like you said, it's not like you're just like, well, that person's just written out of your life, so don't ever consider their feelings ever again.

Right.

It's like that, you can't do that, but you can't also then be like, get a Ouija board and be like, Sarah, what should we do?

So true. I was thinking about when you said the, the piece, um, that you would share with her of like, hey, I'm just missing mom a little extra today. Like, it made me think, and I've talked about this recently, um, in season 3 of Ted Lasso. Now the episode is a spicy moment with Ted and his mom. And so if you're averse to language, Don't watch it. But he's finally at a moment with his mom who, because they're both unbelievably positive.

Yeah.

Right? And you find out in his backstory, you've had years to watch it. So if I'm spoiling anything, this is—

Too late now. Season 4 is out.

Shut it off.

We should have—

But you find out pretty early in Ted's story that his dad committed suicide and how that was very troubling for him and that caused his panic attacks and All these kinds of things. But towards the end of season 3, he confronts his mother and says, hey, thank you, insert all the awesome things that she did. And then he says a not so nice word, F you for never talking about—

Yep.

After dad did these things. And he's like, and thank you. And he swaps the two. He's like, thank you for insert, and then F you for not doing this or for doing this and how you pretended it was all okay. And again, Spicy. But the core lesson in that is, it was very touching for me, because what he was saying was, in the generation that she was a part of, it was that, that boomer generation of, I have to be strong for my kids, I can't let them know that I'm hurting, I have to be strong. And in so doing, if you take that too far, Yeah. then the child looks at you, who's not struggling with anything, because you're holding the image.

Sure.

And then they feel broken because they don't feel that in them. And they're like, okay, if, if mom's, you know, Ted, little, little kid Ted Lasso was looking at his mom going, well, she's fine. What's wrong with me? Yeah, I have to be fine too. So then he's posturing and pretending and always positive until at some point he has a panic attack and he like loses it.

Because our bodies are always going— you said the wave is going to come.

The wave was crushing him. And so he was challenging his mother because he had finally gotten to a point to realize that that was unhealthy. So I love that your daughter gets to— I love that you have allowed your daughter to see and you share in that, that you're initiating and saying, hey, I'm just missing her a lot today. And to a certain extent, I think, obviously, you know how that's beneficial for both of you. But I just, I love reflecting on how that could be a blessing for her. Because sometimes she may not have the words, she may not, she might not even realize why she's down. And she hears you say that. And she's like, yeah. And so that parallel, I just talked about it maybe 2, 3 episodes ago, because we had just watched that again. And I'm like, man, It's too powerful not to talk about. I get that some people won't like the F-word being used in that sequence. I totally get it. But the message is so— I mean, I grew up with boomer parents, you know, and that's how it was. Be strong, pretend, you know, it's— and almost you're all— there's almost a lack of acknowledgement for hardship, for pain, for grief. And so I just— that made me think of those 2 things together, of how you're doing that differently.

Yeah, there's no way to do it perfectly. But you, but you can do it authentically and safely. Right. And so, I want my daughter, she's, she has seen me cry. My congregation has seen me cry. Like, as I'm preaching on these things, we're in a mental health series right now. And I'm like, man, that you planned. Yeah, that we planned in advance. Like it was planned a year ago. And so I'm like, man, I've, I've had the sermon preparation is not just the books. Like it's the heart.

Right.

It's the preparation that the Lord does in you before He's like, oh, you want to tell people how to deal with mental difficulties? You've had them. We've had them the whole time. I'm not in any way saying that this happened because the Lord wanted me to write a bitter sermon, but the Lord does prepare people and listeners and say, okay, there's something I can't explain, but there's— so she has seen me. She's seen me cry before. She passed. She's seen me cry after. I didn't try to become a different person. I do try to become a, a more mature person, a better person.

Yeah.

Right. But I don't become a different person. Let's say optimize. That's right. I try to become an optimized.

Yeah.

The, the emotions, man, they can, they can really get the, the better of you.

Yeah.

If you don't tell them what's true.

Yep.

You don't tell them where to go. You can stay, but you're, it's like you got like sometimes like grief or these, or, or anger or whatever. They can be like these rowdy emotions and it's like, all right, you can stay. Just, make sure you wipe your feet before you come in and don't break anything. You know, it's like you can, you can have your fun and then, and then go, because I can't pretend like you don't exist.

Right.

But I can give you some rules to make sure that you don't trash the place, because there's— I'm not the only person that needs this space. My daughter needs this space. My friends need this space. The people that— they don't— my congregation doesn't like think of me as anything like, like they don't pedestal— like we're all here for Jesus. But the reality is My discipleship is on display to an extent. I don't do that hypocritically. I try to do that authentically as well. Whenever I tell them, I tell my elders, I tell my team, like, and today, like I've told my staff, I'm like, hey, I'm gonna be in a weird headspace today because, you know, yeah, I saw the first car that we purchased together driving down the road. And so I'm gonna take some time. I'll be okay. But I just— Let them know. And they're like, okay, we get it. It's not— because if you don't do that, the emotions win over you, and then you start to act like they just take over your brain.

Yep.

And then you start taking that out on other people, and you start, you know, other people start to get fearful of your anger because you haven't dealt with it properly. It's like classic Hulk, right? Oh no, he's turning green, everybody hide, everybody run.

Yep.

Versus the, you know, it's a controlled burn, I guess.

Yeah.

Tell it where to go.

Yeah.

The rowdy emotions. That's a good way to put that. Emotions typically happen first. You know, a lot of times they're tied to the limbic system, so they're immediate. They have that effect. And then the cerebral part, it takes a moment to move all that forward, think logically, analytically, and get out of the limbic response, the fight or flight or whatever. And so it does take practice and intentionality to, you know, something as simple as breathwork is so—

Dude, it's your body feels it before you know it, right?

Yes.

And so my counselor and my counselors, what up, New and Schwander's Restoration House Family Care in Carthage, I recommend them. They like, where, where, what is, what, like, what muscles are tense right now? Like, where are you feeling your emotions in your body? And I'm like, oh, I don't think I'm feeling my emotions. in my body. Like, at first, what does that mean? I'm not feeling emotions in my body, but my eyebrows are really tired because they've been like this for the last 20 minutes. Is that what you mean? Like, yeah, that's what I mean. Okay, my eyebrows are doing this. Why are my eyebrows doing this? Oh, I'm worried, or whatever. So it's like, you breathe and you're just like, all right, just take some breaths, just slow down. Okay, now what's your body telling you? Like, just— and it's not a long time, it's just 30 seconds. You can do it at a stoplight. You can just breathe and say, where am I feeling it? Ah, my shoulder's tense, or, you know, my stomach. It's in my stomach. It's a deep feeling. So you just talk, like, just listen. Your body is talking to you all the time. But if you're wanting to shut out and numb every— like, I want to numb grief, I want to numb pain— the only way to successfully do that is to numb all of it. And so you don't listen to what your body is saying. And you end up not— you end up staying in a situation that's worse for longer because you don't realize you have to feel it to get past it.

I had, um, a counselor tell me, like, grief— the gift of grief. Yeah, like, right? She, like, put it in quotes. She's like, it can be a gift if you will allow it to be. Yeah, but you have to learn to step into it. To not fight it.

Yeah.

To feel it and then go, okay, what, what does the Lord have for me on the other side of this moment right now? Like, what is it that he desires to teach me or refine in me or work out in me because of this situation or because of this experience? And even something like, losing a loved one, there, there is things to be learned and refining to be done so that I look more like my Jesus on the other side of that. And so I've thought a lot about that as in processing my grief and in, and even like, you know, the people that are in our sphere in Joplin, like they're watching how— how we grieve, you know. And I've had the same conversations with my team a couple of days. I'm like, hey, I'm gonna shut my door today.

I'm—

I just— today's, you know, today's whatever. Or, you know, yeah, August is weird. Like, or like the day that was Sarah's birthday, you know, it was. And I even had a friend who reached out and texted me. She's like, hey, I'm just a little extra thought and prayer for you today. And I was like—

Yeah.

I hadn't realized what day it was. She realized it and saw it on Facebook before I even did. And so I quit being on Facebook and it was like, oh my gosh, it's Thursday.

Yeah, she, she gave you preparation love, right?

Yeah, she did. Before I even— like, I went, oh, it is. And so it's, it's those, it's those moments of learning to see it for what it can be but not living in I think both things of the way that Ted's mom did it, of completely shut it down, right? Versus complete and utter meltdown, I'm not getting out of bed, I can't function.

Ever again.

Ever again. Both of those things are bad and not the way to do that. And I think you have to find somewhere in the middle of it. And we've talked a lot about how it is cyclical and it's a little bit like riding a roller coaster or it's a little bit Like, you know, whatever analogy you want to use.

Sure.

It's gonna come and go.

Yeah.

And, and, you know, grief is gonna come and sit for a while, and then he'll leave, and then he'll come back another time when you least expect it and you're not prepared.

Yeah.

Um, but I, I think learning to actually be able to name what the emotion is.

Yeah.

And to sit for a minute and to, you know, for me to like Stop and go, why am I so sad today? Or, why am I angry today? Or, why am I— it's not always manifest itself in sadness. It can, but it can manifest itself in a myriad of other ways.

Indulgence. I'm gonna keep my feelings, right? Yeah.

It can be so many different things. And so, to sit and stop and to go, okay, hang on. This is not normal for me. What is, what is this actually?

Yeah.

And I have found that when I will actually figure out and name what that emotion is, it somewhat loses its power. Like, when I can, can go, hang on, wait a minute, this is XYZ, take your pick, right? It actually, like, it's almost like it deflates the balloon. Like, I— it, it it grew and grew and grew because I wasn't dealing with it. I wasn't naming it and wasn't figuring it out. And then the minute I went, this is grief.

Yeah.

It's almost like I then could now deal with all of these feelings better and all of these emotions. And maybe that's what you're talking about, of going from the back to the front. Like it finally hit this—

Yeah, you're grabbing the steering wheel.

It took long. Yeah. And so it's— I don't know. That's been a big thing for me of like when I can actually go, This is what it is. And then the telling other people.

Yeah.

Allowing other people to come along in that. 'Cause it's way easier to acknowledge it to myself and go, okay, cool. But it's a whole nother thing to tell him.

Yeah.

Or to tell my team.

Yeah.

Or to be willing and vulnerable enough to say, I'm struggling too.

And it's also difficult to tell the person that you think, well, if I'm struggling, I don't wanna tell them because they may be struggling more and I don't wanna cause them to spiral. You don't wanna tell somebody that you're, that you, you were also friends with her. Like, man, I don't want to tell the husband that I'm having a hard day, but you know, I care about you guys and your relationship with her as well. So it's like sometimes people almost, you know, back away from you because like that's, some people try to say something because they care and other people back away and they suffer away from you because they don't want you to see their suffering. Because I think it's like a comparison game.

Mm-hmm.

Like it would be embarrassing for him to see me cry about this because of what he's going through.

It's that comparative suffering piece that is real unhealthy. Comparison obviously has a lot of bad qualities, thief of joy, and, you know, cause envy, jealousy, those kinds of things. But comparative suffering is usually what I see people do in where they— it's most— the most common way I see it is when people discount their own experience because someone else's is Comparatively worse.

Yeah.

So they, especially with somebody who wrestles with negative self-talk and those kinds of things, they'll be like, well, look at that guy. He just lost his spouse and, you know, so, and he seems okay. So why don't I have my crap together?

Yeah.

That's what I mean by comparative suffering. And that comparison is used as a weapon against them for either not being worse or better or where they think they should be. And, uh, I just see so many people, uh, discount their own experience. The same thing is true with like, you know, testimonies and things like that. They're like, well, you know, I, I wasn't homeless eating, you know, chicken legs out of a dumpster. So, uh, I, I don't, I couldn't possibly—

I was in college and I ate chicken legs out of a dumpster. Well, no, you're right. But so the, the comparison then it, it's almost like you're trying to circumvent the process of what you're talking about, naming it. Right? Because if I can compare or whatever, then I can ignore it. I've got an excuse for it because it's harder to go through what you're saying, where you name it and it loses its power, but it doesn't lose its presence. Like, it's still there.

Very much. Yeah, that is true.

Um, and I think it's interesting, we, we've talked about these, these waves, and like, at first the grief is like a tsunami that just kind of floods you. And then the Grief Share program, they were like, the waves get a little bit smaller and they get a little You know, a little more farther apart, right? And the way that I took that whenever it was that particular video, I just said to myself, you know, the same huge waves that can sink a ship eventually become the waves that children play in on the beach. And so there's something that happens as these waves get smaller that it's— people get relaxing on a beach with waves.

Yeah.

That wave used to be somewhere in the middle of the ocean, very dangerous. And so I'm not saying you need to try to ride gigantic grief waves. Sometimes you just hunker down, but they do get smaller. They do get further in between, and everybody's got a different pace for them. And the best friendships— we haven't even talked about this yet— the thought of how an introvert versus an extrovert grieves in friendships.

Hmm.

Because I, as an extrovert, have multiple friendship groups just because I'm more— I'm not saying that my friendships are an inch deep and a mile wide. I think I'm somewhere toward a very deep and wide friendship with a lot of people. And so then you and, you and I are all grieving as a friend group differently than people that you have never met that I'm friends with.

Mm-hmm.

And we're grieving that differently. It's not— there's no same formula for every friend group. It's almost— you have to be adaptable to the way all of your different beautiful friendships paint this picture of walking you on a different path.

Hmm.

You know, and some people, they're introverted. I have to give them space for like, I'd rather really rather not talk about it because the way I grieve is just being reflective or quiet or meditative, right? And I'm not, I'm not like Well, I party, so if you're not partying, then, you know, it's not like, uh, every friendship group— there's no cookie-cutter way to grieve with a friend. Because you guys know that even in your marriage, you're, you're, you're different people, but you're somehow this unit, right? And so, and then in a friendship, we're all different personalities, different people, but we're a unit. And then all of these different friendships are different units. And that's what I mean by like a faith community. It's just all of these units come together for one purpose, and that's just to walk, walk this life well for the real reason why we're all here. Yep.

Well, and I remember like you talking about introvert versus extrovert, like having the conversation, you know, shortly after she passed of like, okay, it's, it's okay for you to like stay home one night and not have to fill your evenings with people. Like you probably need to actually like take some time.

Yeah.

To yourself. And to stay at home and to— Kate is an introvert and Kate needs to come down out of people for a while. And so that acknowledgement even for yourself of like, I'm going to actually have to do the opposite of what most people do in that I'm going to have to choose to stay home.

Yeah.

She's a selective extrovert.

Yes. Yes, she is.

Very much so. And I am all-inclusive extrovert. Everybody is in. And so the space for her then is she wants— she likes for me to be there and I like to be there. I want to be there. This is my home. I'm not trying to run from my home.

Yeah.

So even if she wants me there and I need to be there because there's no— we don't have any activities going on that night, I don't detach from that. Even if it's— she's in her room reading and I'm like, okay, she can be in her room reading and I can be Doing some dishes or whatever. LOL, dishes. Who does those? Am I right? No, but I can be still in the area so that you never know. There have been times— it's not just like with my daughter, it's with anybody. I find that the best thing you can do is just have your silence with them, and then you say, I don't know why I'm here, but I feel like I'm supposed to be here in this moment with this person. And they're just doing something. It's almost like they're not paying attention to you. And suddenly they just turn and go, hey, let's talk about this. And you go, oh, that's why I was here. So I don't have to be like, you know, on the top of her bunk with her down there. We're all reading our stories together. I can be, you know, I can be in my recliner while she's in her room, but we're still getting through it her way and also my way. And at the same time, it's—

Yep.

And like that one night you got, you stayed up late in Florida. Yeah. And just, just hung out in silence. Yeah. And then she opened the door.

Yeah.

We, we walked like 20,000 steps, rode all these roller coasters carrying the pack with all the stuff.

Yep.

And we're pretty tired. And, and, and she was, of course, she's got like 12-year-old energy. I'm telling you, if you could just attach youth to the grid, the power grid, we, we would have renewable energy. And she was just like, hey, I want to go swimming. And I'm like, Awesome. She's like, do you want to swim? I was like, you know, I do. I mean, I said, how about this? I won't really swim because I'm pretty tired, but I do think it would feel good for me to put my feet in the water.

Hmm.

And so I'm like, I want to be with you. I don't want to get in the pool and then have to try to get out and do all this other stuff. Like, I just— but I do want to be here, and I do want to put my feet in the water. How about that? And she's like, yeah. And then we had a very good, healthy, serious conversation. It took a little while. She was swimming around, and I was splashing, and we talked about the day, and we talked about the stars. We talked We talked about, you know, there's a whole lot more planes in bigger cities than in Mountain Home, Arkansas, you know, all the different things.

Yep.

And then that was just the— there's, man, I wish that there were an easy way to get to the hard conversation, but it just switched.

Yep.

And can we talk about this? Absolutely. And I wasn't there. And if she didn't say anything at all, difficult or have that, I still, it still would've been absolutely the right move for me to be there. I'm not there just in case she says something, but that was a space where it was safe for stuff to come out.

And for her to know, like, we don't always have to talk about that. Like, we can talk about other things. Dad is safe to have other conversations with because you've been intentional and you've had other conversations. I mean, The girl's been through a lot of things. So, you've had a lot of time to have conversations that for a 12-year-old, she shouldn't have to have been having in her life yet. But, this is just that next phase. But, because you've already been having those conversations and you have conversations about other things, she knows that's a safe space and I can trust Dad to bring up this hard thing.

This is not going to be the only time we're allowed to talk about this. Correct.

Yeah.

It's like this door, it's not locked. Even if we close it now, we can open it up later.

Yeah.

And you said like things that she shouldn't have to go through, and that's very true. None of us should have to go through any of this really. We believe that the world was perfect and we brought in this grief and stuff. And so I feel a weird thing about grief. Grief and I have a different relationship now than before because before I was like, I'm really not wanting to grieve. Like, I don't want to go through this. And then when you have to go through it, the grief is— it's in an odd way, I guess I say I belong here. I belong in this grief because of the love that I had, the reality that they're gone. I belong here. It's not the space I wanted to be in, right? But I think it would be a worse space to lose somebody that you— and then not suddenly not care, be able to turn that off. So this is a space where I'm supposed to be. And since she—

This is the price you're willing to pay.

So if I belong here, and nobody gets out of this life without experiencing grief.

Yep.

And so this is a stage where we're supposed to be for as long as we're supposed to be here.

Yeah.

And so it's just weird when you think, it's like, you know, you guys go to the gym pretty frequently, and it's like, I belong here. It's gonna be tough. I'm gonna push myself, but I'm gonna grow from this. I belong here. I belong in this difficult situation. You know, we do that in so many different ways. Like, I belong in the difficult process of saving financially. This is difficult, but I belong here because the future is going to be this.

Yep.

So I belong in this grief because of the relationship that led me here. This is a natural response, and so it's not like, like, own it. Like, it's not about trying to win it, it's about trying to walk it.

Hmm.

As you were saying that, the image that came to my mind was the illustration between the buffalo and the cow.

Oh yeah.

When storms come, right? So those of you who don't know, the, when a, when a storm approaches, cows are known to run away from the storm and bison by contrast. Uh, and there are some brands built around this on purpose, uh, because the imagery is really powerful that when a storm comes. Bison turned to face the storm. Into, you know, into the storm is the phrase. Shout out Rich Froning. And they faced that storm head on. And so that's exactly what you described. It's coming. It was, and I think that's what some, some people, I thought was like, maybe some people will hear that wrong. Like, no, it sounds like he chose it. I didn't choose it. It's like, no, no, no. The storm in that illustration, the storm's coming either way. It's just, are you going to be a cow? Are you going to be a bison?

And these bison are very rarely by themselves, right? They're in a herd, and so if the rest of the herd starts to turn to face it, and you realize, I'm facing the wrong way, so everybody else faithfully turns toward the storm to get through it, and you realize, oh, there's always one that's the last one to turn. There just has to be. And there's usually one that's the first to turn. It senses the storm, right? And so if you see— if it doesn't matter, just as long as, as a community everybody's turning.

Yep.

And you— I see you turn toward the storm and go through it and lean into your faith and lean into your Savior, and then it's like, well, I need to, to kind of turn this way too because it works.

Yep.

Any additional veins Or thoughts?

I've got one.

Helpful things?

Thank you for being there for all of it, from literally being the person who introduces me to my wife, to being somebody that has always been intentionally connected. You know, it's a beautiful thing. And I know, I just know it's going to continue. No matter, no matter what happens. Like, right now there's 4 of us because my daughter's at the house, but eventually she's hopefully gonna go and graduate, and who knows what this friendship and the family dynamics looks like for all of us. But I just have this complete certainty that it's, it's going to be done together, and I just, I can't thank you enough.

Thank you. Love you, darling.

Love you.

Yeah, same. I remember thinking, you know, especially earlier this year when the waves were tall and frequent, um, and I, I just, you know, I was like, this is not fun. But, um, I I'd make this, I'd make the same choices involving this scenario.

Absolutely.

Every time.

Absolutely.

Yep.

So, and there's such comfort in that.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

You know, that I'm not like, why did you introduce, why did you introduce me to this amazing person? I'm like, absolutely. I would've done the exact same thing over and over again.

I would pick it again.

Yeah.

Over and over.

Yeah.

And I think in, in processing You know, it's— because I've thought about this a lot, like, what was different in losing, like, losing his mom versus losing Sarah? Like, losing Sarah has been far harder than losing his mom. And there's a myriad of reasons for that. You know, I think it's—

Mother-in-law, you know?

It's the years of the time we didn't get.

Yeah.

Right? But also, like, I, I mean, we talked about this a couple of weeks ago in, in the story of the, the Harry heart from Harry Potter, right? Like, I'm not gonna choose to not love because it will hurt.

Yeah.

Like, every time I would still adopt that freshman kiddo on my floor. 20 years ago.

Yeah.

Without even a question. And, and the honor and the privilege to have loved enough that it does hurt.

Yeah.

That there is this, this hole, but also like not without hope and not without, um, you know, asking that the Lord would use conversations down the line when people watch the grief and say, how are you okay? Right?

Yeah.

Like, how are you wading through this situation? I only have one answer to that.

Sure.

Right? There is only one reason for that.

Right.

And that this would ultimately point to the truth.

Mm-hmm.

Because That is what Sarah— that is the ultimate thing that Sarah would have wanted.

Sure.

And to honor her well would be to point to the one who carried her every step of the way.

Yeah. And when you said, how are you okay? I thought it's a— I also want to ask what that person means by okay. Like, what do you mean by okay? Because if you mean unscathed, I'm not.

Right.

Don't get the idea that I'm not still healing, right? But if by okay you mean, you know, not in the bottom of a bottle or not, you know, doing the self-destructive behaviors, right, then obviously the answer is the same, like you said. It's that testimony of faith in Christ. But I want to make— everybody has a different definition of okay.

Yep.

You know, because some people may think that I'm not doing okay. They may think, well, you know, like, he's still wearing his wedding ring in August whenever she passed in January. Maybe he's not okay. Like, everybody has so many different definitions. And so the most important thing is that you are comfortable with the— that if everybody else is allowed to grieve differently, it's amazing how we could say these things to other people. Like, you're allowed to grieve differently. You're allowed to grieve differently, but not me. Why do we do that to ourselves? I'm allowed to grieve differently. If we're all as unique as a fingerprint, then the way we respond to every situation should also be. There's no, we're supposed to be different. We're gonna be different. So let's just allow yourself to say that. So it's like, well, what's your definition of okay?

Mm-hmm.

Because I wanna be clear, because if you think that I'm doing the Ted Lasso's mom thing, Oh no, I'm doing you a disservice.

Right.

Because if you think like, all done, then no.

Right.

So clarity really, really does matter. But then you can say, yeah, now that we're— now that we're clear on the definition of okay, this is why.

Yeah.

Yeah. Peace is a huge, huge component with that. I hope that conversation was a blessing to you as we discussed together. These kinds of things. It's real, it's raw. And, and that's exactly what we wanted you to see and what we wanted you to eavesdrop to. So as always, thanks for listening to the Optimizing Beyond podcast. Remember, growth happens when you take action. So subscribe, share this with a friend.

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