Optimize When Life Isn’t Optimal: Margin, Boundaries, and Calm Under Pressure | Ft Eric Dwyer

Welcome to the Optimizing Beyond podcast. I'm Josh Negron, and this show is all about sharing lessons, ideas, and strategies that sharpen your thinking, strengthen your habits, and push you to grow beyond comfort zones. Let's dive in. Welcome back to the show. Today, I have a guest named Eric Dwyer. He's a dear friend of mine, and he's a senior pastor at a church in Mountain Home, Arkansas. Welcome to the show, Eric.

Thanks for having me, Josh.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And as you know, we talk about all things optimization from tech mindset to really practical things. And I wanted to get you on the show today because we were talking offline about, you know, it's easy to talk about optimization when you're constantly looking at that additional 1% to make yourself better in so many areas. But let's admit it, I think we all know and are familiar with areas in our lives that Let's just face it, are not optimal. So, you know, how do we optimize when you're not in the black, when you're in the red emotionally, physically, both, or more, right? So, that was some of the things that we were discussing. Now, can you share with our audience why you would have some, maybe some experience in this area?

Yeah. Listen, this is the type of leader nobody really wants to be, right? The wartime general. Everybody wants everything to be at peace and going. But when When the reality is that's just not life. And so when situations like that hit your people and they see how you have dealt with things like this, they're following your example oftentimes more than they're following your instructions. My life has had times, seasons that have been marked by sort of could be chaos that has taken some leaders under. We have had health scares in our family. We have had adoption struggles. In our family, the organization that I lead went through what a lot of organizations went through with a lot of questions, more questions, and unprecedented times, trying to seek answers that were best and that were optimal for your organization and your people to retain them and still serve them. So, it's just had a lot of these moments that are marked with trials, and how you handle those things internally is really what comes out of you externally and then flows down to the rest of your organization.

Now, how do you handle that pressure too? Because like, obviously, you know, that, you know, that people are— you're leading or watching. And you don't want to just be that, you know, that statistic hypocrite, right? That, that doesn't practice what you preach. And does that make it— would you, would you say that sometimes makes it harder because everybody's watching?

I think it's harder if you're in the wrong setting, or if you have your head In the wrong frame of mind of what your people need from you, what they expect of you. Perfection is an unattainable goal, but you can be authentic. So one thing that I try to do is earphones have low power mode when it's needed. And oftentimes we only go into low power mode whenever the battery's like, you're at 20%, the battery's red, you need to go into low power mode now. You can go into low power mode anytime. If you're like, dude, I'm at 50%, I better, I better throw this into low power mode right now. It's just so that in mind. 50% goes longer. We get to like 5% and hope that we can get through the next 5 hours of the day on low power mode. You don't have to run that hard the whole time. So part of it is just being aware, constantly checking yourself, saying, I'm at 80, you know, I'm at 40. And if you don't have the people around you that what you're conveying then is if I have to be 100% all the time, And perfect, then everybody around you is trying to keep up with that. And you may be that really optimal leader that has everything clicking and humming, but oftentimes the people that are right under you, they can't, or even beneath them, they can't either. And so, they're trying to run at your pace because you've got this awesome level of leadership. But what you're doing, you're not burning out, but you're burning everybody else out because they're trying to keep pace with you. And sometimes, you know, if you're the type of leader that says, well, I want people that are like me and my equals, so cut them. Well, maybe, maybe that's you and you have to cut them. But I find it's better to be more real and say, hey, I'm struggling with this. And it's— that means it's okay for your other people to struggle with it. So then they look at how you're handling your struggle, and then they, they implement that. And then they get better by a wide margin. Everybody, everybody gets better whenever you are authentic in how you're handling situations.

Hmm. How do you handle— how do you handle boundaries with that? Because obviously, authenticity opens the door for, for your followers and And the people that you lead to share in that suffering with you and how you're getting through it. So, obviously, there's a lot of benefit there in trust and them learning the ways through what we could— let's categorize as the valleys. But then also, as a leader, you also have to keep certain boundaries. And so, there's just these levels of like, hey, how are you today, Eric? And you're like, well, I'm actually really bad. So, how do you handle that balance?

Well, I wish it were a clean chart where you could say, all right, these are my peer leaders and I can be this gut-level honest with them. And then, these are the people that are on the next level of leadership. And, everybody, especially in my frame of what I do for a living, they have the right to expect a degree of leadership. We're spiritual leaders for a reason. It's not like, hey, guys, I'm just one of you. That's not a leader. You can lead from within, but still you have to stand up and lead. So, if you've got people that are maybe on your board or whatever, and they're the same authority as you, but they're not as connected, you may have people that have the same level of authority as you on your board that you still aren't as open with. You know, you've got your few that you're like, I'm actually more, I'll tell these people, I'm not hiding anything from these people. And they're still just as valuable on the board. And like, we're all, like I said, all on the same team, all on the same level. But it's not like everybody here gets the exact same information at all times. And then you may have somebody that is like a subordinate or something like that, that I say subordinate, not as in like servitude, but just in levels here, somebody that reports to you, a direct report. And you may feel like you have a better connection with them and you can be more authentic with them and more honest about the situation that you're going through than you can even at times with the people that are sort of in your boardroom or on that same level with you. So, I wish it were a clean chart, but oftentimes you just have to assess the relationship that you have with that person and be real about it because there are some people you're connected to on a more friendship level, gut level, like brother level, but they're not in the decision-making room. And so, you have to be wise. You have to be wise to consider the people that are around you at any given time. So what I do, there are people that I know that I probably shouldn't share all information with. It's not because I'm trying to shield myself. If anything, it's because I'm trying to shield them and to protect them because they don't know, they would not know how to handle the information and sit with the information if I gave it to them. But I make sure, I make sure that I do have people that I can give all of the information to so that I'm not holding on to all of that.

Hmm.

Make sure to find people outside of your organization. I had a friend tell it to me this way. He's like, man, I act like a dog that needs to take a dump in somebody else's yard so I don't have to step in it. So, it's like you just find some of the space where you can tell everybody exactly what's going on without any fear of it coming back to be like, hey, we should probably, you know, pull you out, you know, that sort of thing. Because if it's not to that level, You should absolutely trust your team, but I have internal people that I trust with everything, external people that I trust with everything. And it really is a— you have to know the relationship, whatever level it's at.

Mm-hmm.

And some people just get a cookie-cutter answer, and it's not wrong. It's still real, but it's something that is— whenever we go through things, I say, hey, well, I'm pressed, but I'm not crushed. And that's a very real thing. I believe that. But that, that's not the in-depth, here, let me show you my schedule of all the appointments that we went to or the court dates that we had. They don't need to know all that info. And they care. Sometimes you can overshare more than they actually care, right? They can say, how are you? And you're like, here's my heart. And they're like, oh no. So you just— It's not that they don't care at all. It's just you have to match the information you give with the care that they actually have in the relationship. You don't want to overburden the relationship. You also don't want to underfeed it, because then people can tell, they're really holding back. That means they don't trust me. And that actually cuts a wedge in the relationship too. So it's, it's way more by feel. And some people just have that EQ, that, that sort of emotional quotient that they can tell, this is what this person needs. Because even while you're going through chaos, Other people are going through chaos too. And so if you're like, oh, let me tell you about my chaos, sometimes that does not help them. And they'll be like, oh no, there's more chaos out there. And they'll panic. Some people can, they actually get comfort from that. You know, they say, oh good, other people are going through hard times too. It's very much by feel. Uh, it's like walking a landmine sometimes.

It, that made me thought like what you described is things like wisdom, Yeah. Right, in knowing like when is the right thing to say and what. And I also want to draw out the distinction that you had with the degrees of vulnerability not being deception, right? Because I think that sometimes people like to strong-arm when they feel like someone's not sharing deeper with them, that they feel somehow like betrayed or that they're being lied to. And it's like, no, those Those levels are levels of, you know, levels of vulnerability, right? And that, that, that doesn't necessarily translate into, into deception or lying or, or even hiding something, right? Because like you said, if someone doesn't, even if someone, let's just take the simplest form, if someone doesn't fully care, then you going, you going too deep would be like, whoa. Right?

Yeah. I would say like, for example, we have when we were going through our adoption struggle with our daughter, a lot of that, she's 3, 4 years old at the time. She wasn't aware. We could not possibly tell her everything, all the information about what judges and lawyers and caseworkers were saying. She didn't have the maturity, the capacity for that at that time. There may come a time, actually, as she's getting older, she's 12 now. I've told her, I said, hey, any, any questions you have about how all of that went down, any information that you have that you haven't told me, we're in a different stage of your life and our relationship now. I can tell you more. than I couldn't tell you when you were 4 years old. So even if you do withhold information, it's not necessarily a permanent withholding. It's a need to know on a time basis. And as people then in the organization sort of level up, you can go, okay, here's your security clearance now because, you know, you're not just an intern here. You've leveled up. So this withholding of information is not Like you said, it's not deception, it's protection in some instances.

It's true. Another thing that it kind of makes me think about is the degree of self-control too. Like when we're having a hard time, I think then one of the natural defaults is to, I mean, tell anybody that'll listen. We all know that person, right? You know, you're like, how are you? And then there you sometimes like, if you don't have time, you avoid them. 'Cause you know, if you're like, if you open that door, it's gonna be, you know, 57 minutes minimum, right?

It's the Eeyore door.

Oh my goodness, right. And so, I think sometimes the natural default is to just blur, you know, and get that all out there. And it's tough because it takes that discernment, right, to know who to share things to. But I think that's that additional layer of discernment of like, hey, I need to have the self-control to identify a small group of people. Like you said, you know, I have key people here, and I have key people here. And the definition of that is not everybody, right? And so I think it's important to, to also identify that, that like, you're gonna sometimes want to overshare, and you need to, you need to really be careful of, yeah, of just not doing that, right? Any, any additional thoughts on that front?

Just that the oversharing can be overbearing to certain people. And there are like safe spaces, they're like home bases anywhere you go. And so the inverse of that is true. There are also people that are not quite as trustworthy in all of those spaces as well. You know, whatever branch you're visiting that particular day, there are safe people, but there are also people that probably don't need all of the information. So there are safe spots and there's also hotspots in every level.

Absolutely. So when you've been in these points in your life, what would you say have been the disciplines or habits that really Have kept you grounded. For example, therapists will talk about when someone's once been any valley, sometimes like the goals and the tasks that they give them are are very simple. Like for someone deep deep in depression, it's like hey, you know this week I need you to to get fully ready for the day and fully dressed and go outside for five minutes, right? So to anyone not in a valley, they're like. What a dumb goal. Like, right? Yeah. So obviously, that, that's, that's going to be dependent on where someone's at. So what, what for you has been, you know, those core things that you hold on to, to get you through?

What's funny is I used to give advice to people in their, their struggles and their losses or whatever they've been going through. And I just say, hey, I need to need you to treat yourself like a plant. All right, give yourself food, give yourself water, and go out and get yourself some sunlight. Just kind of keep it to those, those basic things and watch that sort of progress from there. But one thing that I have done, especially in recent years, is leveraged technology because technology has been just extremely more and more, more and more helpful. Because if we think of our brain like a computer, right? If your computer is just maxed out on its memory and storage and everything it's trying to do, all of the programs, when it starts to run, your computer sounds like an airplane's taken off and you're like, what is hap— what's happening right now? Everything's sluggish. Everything's slow. Everything's choppy. So that this, the, what you would do for a computer is you say, I need to get some of this stuff that's on here. 17 tabs open and one of them is playing music and you don't know where it is. You know, all of those things happening, all going on at once. Just plug in an external hard drive, get some of the important things off of that so that there's space for the other things that you need to process. And so technology for me is one of those instances. It's like a little external hard drive where all I have to do is say, Just speak words. Remind me in three hours that I need to start, you know, dinner. You know, whatever the case may be, because you can get so ingrained in making sure that the chaos is controlled that you forget that there's care that needs to happen in other areas as well. So if your watch buzzes and you're like, "I need to, I need to get ready," there's so many things that can be going on. It can be as simple as I need to pick up my daughter early from school. That was just yesterday because we had. Christmas break now, and she, I mean, she needed to be picked up at 1, not 3, the usual time. But if I'm so into this world of immersive managing these important situations, I can default to my, uh, to my routine and then other people suffer instead of just taking 5 seconds to say, set a reminder to get 1 o'clock to get my daughter and then set it 15 minutes earlier. I'm the type of person and personality type with my ENFP that I've been leveraging technology for a long time to help me be organized. And so just having those little moments like that, just, it's again, just taking that processing power and putting it in something that doesn't feel the emotions that you're experiencing. It's not feeling the pressure that you're feeling. It's, it's a, it's a talking electronic rock. Like it will just do all of the things for you. And so anything that is heavy or that space, you free that up so that you can process other things and you don't get so sluggish, like a rundown computer, an overburdened computer.

Like, yeah, offloading the things that, that, yeah, aren't gonna, aren't gonna need your, your bandwidth, right? You know, 'cause we all have limited, limited bandwidth.

It increases, it increases your margin. And it's amazing how you still feel the more margin you have, you still, you're not panicking as much. There's, there's peace, you know, you're like, oh, there's a cliff over there, but I'm still way far away from it. You know, you start making better decisions, wiser decisions, and your people sense that you're not in panic mode. So, they also make decisions where they're not fearing for their jobs or fearing for the future. And so, they're making great decisions that actually ingrain them in the organization, that instill trust in the organization. And so, I also leverage my team along with technology. I leverage my team because I've got people that I can trust completely that I work with. And so, if I say, Hey, they trust me too. So if I say I'm gonna have to miss this meeting or this event or something along those lines, they, they don't question it at all because they know my heart is to be there, my heart is to support them. And they know the drill and they support me because they know that I support them. And they're also leveraging technology as well to give themselves margins in case something needs to be off of my plate and thrown on their plate. Suddenly their plate isn't spilling over too. So It really needs to be copied and pasted all throughout because sometimes something needs to be handed down. But if you hand it to somebody whose hands are full, this stuff's going to fall. But if you do not, I would say, if you do not connect with your team, trust your team, and leverage your team, you're not a leader that is looking to put down roots in that organization or in that place. Because whenever you do that, leverage your technology and your team, you are ingraining yourself in that culture. In that organization, and your people are as well. And it gets, it gets very cohesive.

Hmm.

You can, you can add more easily to that because that team is, is healthy and people feel like they can be a part of it. And it gets harder and harder to leave a team of people that give you margin, give you the space you need, trust each other and care for each other whenever it hits the fan. Then you retain good people, you contain the problems, and you actually gain momentum.

No, that's solid. So, you kind of peeled back something that I want to touch on in that, you know, there's this feeling that leaders often have, maybe tied to like guilt of, you know, in times of struggle or challenge where, you know, maybe you have to hand things off and you feel like, man, am I doing enough? Because in this valley, I'm I'm not able to execute at the level that I know I could, should, or am expected to, insert the blank. I mean, so then you have to, like you said, you have to hand down, you have to delegate, you have to cancel things. And there's this, so there's like maybe some guilt that might plug into you there. And delegation's like a leadership 101 struggle anyway for any leader, right?

Right.

You know, whether you want to do it all yourself or be the man or, you know, they don't do it as good as you, so you don't want to hand it off. But there's also this function, like you said, you hand things off to, you trust your team and hand things off to your team. There's a general desire for people to want to be useful, to be needed, even in healthy ways, right? And so when you trust them with something, you allow the team to support you and the system and the culture. And we all know that that's beneficial. But so there's this tension I want to talk about on leaders feeling guilty for not doing everything they're supposed to. In whatever way that looks like. And then, you know, there are people actually wanting to be trusted and wanting to be needed by the leader and how that can draw the team closer. Have you ever had that, that, that those, those tensions in your, in your position through your rallies?

Well, I think I have maybe early on, especially whenever we were going through 2020, sort of the chaos that was all that, you know, everybody was like, we don't have any idea. And when, when you're, you know, you've got the desk, we see your name on it, they kind of like, what are we doing? I'm like, shoot, I'm supposed to have all the answers. And when you feel— the more you feel like you have to have all of the answers, I think that actually hurts the trust within your team. We like to say that the answer is somewhere in the room, right? So, you have a thought that I may not have. Your brain works differently than mine does. And so, I trust my team. So, the answer— we have the answer as the leadership. Right. And so, the answer is somewhere here in this room. It may not be in my brain, but what you give, your spark, may be like that little kindling that then catches the next log, that catches the next log, that gets us there. If you feel like you have to have all the answers, that's really, really lonely, lonely leadership. And you'll start to not trust anybody. You'll cut people off. You'll turn people away. And people will even wonder why they're a part of your team at all. I think when it comes to leadership, it's a lot like sort of finances. You've heard the phrase, live within your means, right? You know, don't just because you can, the bank says I can afford this house, that does not mean you need to buy that much house. So, you've got to live within your means, give margin for inflation and all kinds of that. I would also say that we need to lead within our means as well. Just because you can take on all of those things, just because you're, you know, your degree is the bank that says you're allowed to do all of these things. If you give that sort of 80%, 90%, and I'm not saying don't give your best, I'm saying give your best 90, give your best 80, and give yourself that space for the unexpected. That's not bad. That's not bad leadership. That's actually good leadership. That's an emergency leadership savings fund that you have stockpiled. So, when stuff hits, you're ready to pull from that and you're not, oh, no, there's no more. I've got no more change left in my pocket as a leader. You've got that stockpile. Now, you can overstock that, you know, and say, I'm not going to do anything. So, when things go bad, I'm, you know, I'm ready. You have to balance your— don't put all your eggs in one basket, so to speak, in that. So, I would just say to lead within your means and set that example for your people because an organization that functions really steadily at 80% with this growth is a lot better than the ones that spike and then drop and then spike and then drop. That eventually people stop. They're not going to hang out for those. For those drops. They're gonna, they're gonna go with the proven winners over, over a long haul.

Man, great quotes there. Answer is somewhere in the room. So you're, you're, you take a role of a facilitator, ask great questions, get those thoughts out there.

Yeah, yeah. So my, my organization has elders and, and then staff, and I am a minister. I'm a preacher here, but some preachers at some churches They would say, I am a non-voting elder. So they're like, we want you to have the title, but whenever it comes to make the decision, we as the eldership are going to vote. And I was recently with a group of ministers that all had that. I'm an elder who doesn't vote. I'm an elder who doesn't vote. I'm an elder who doesn't vote. And they said, what about you? And I was like, well, I think I'm a voting non-elder. And they were like, what do you mean? I said, well, I mean, I'm listened to. I'm like an equal in this. I don't have the title. of an elder, that's because that's not what they need from me at this moment. I'm a preacher, but they still consider me as an equal in the room. It's one of those things that if you have to have a title to throw around, your team's got a lot more stuff you need to work through.

Hmm.

But whenever I said to these ministers that I'm a sort of a voting non-elder because we all listen to each other equally, they each said, I would take that over being somebody that has the title without the ability to speak into the situation. Wow.

Yeah. And it draws to light the power of, power of multiplication with people. I always say that with the right humans, that 1 1 doesn't equal 2, like 1 1 equals 9, right? And so when you have a room full of people that you've— a team that you've built and that you've grown together, like you've grown, they've grown, and you've gone through difficulties and challenges together, then, I mean, I would argue, like you said, that That all of those people added up together is an exponential, like, talk about rocket fuel concept, right? It is an accelerator to overcoming, to optimizing, to getting through, right? You mentioned earlier you're leading different layers of leadership from the elders to the staff, and then obviously the flock that you preach to. You know, we've talked about, you know, we could talk about more in general leadership, how you would handle those, but in the, with the additional layer of when things aren't optimal, right? When things aren't going, they're not ideal, you're pressed, right? What does your weekly leadership look like for those different layers? Because like you said, you may be in power-saving mode. I feel like most of the leadership stuff out there touches on how to just be a great leader kind of assumes that everything's going awesome.

Right?

Right. So, and you're in a unique space where you're responsible for multiple layers, whereas maybe a CEO is going to just be responsible for, you know, the board and his direct reports underneath him, he's not going to be handling several layers deep. I think a minister is in a unique spot where you've got those multiple layers, but you're still dealing with the flock, you know, which, you know, might, might be classified as the employee base. Sure.

Yeah. I think one thing that I would do is make sure that there are levels to that leadership dynamic, but that doesn't mean they have to be so isolated from each other that they don't have any idea what's going on in each of those layers. So, for example, if something happens within the flock and I then need to be absent from one space, like maybe my staff space so that I could be over in the flock space. If the staff is unaware of what I'm doing, there's no communication, then they will make assumptions about why I'm not there. And so for the flock, if they know, they trust a high degree of trust in the leadership because there's transparency.

Mm-hmm.

If something's happening within the flock and I send somebody else, like a staff member, or that means— that should not mean that it's any lesser. It means it's still somebody, a part of the organization that's there to help. But they then know that it's because I am unavailable because I'm in another very important space. I've had people say, you know, we understand completely that you need to be where you are doing something else. And so we can handle this. And you watch them sort of rise up and say, okay, there are leaders here.

Hmm.

But I think I need to, instead of pulling him out of a hospital room, I think I need to just sort of man up and do this and then go, all right, in the past where I would have asked for help, I figured out that I could do it. And I'm not going to sound like I'm really not trying to insult people at all, but it really is like children, raising children, where they're like, Daddy, could you tie my shoes for me? And they're like, I think you've seen Daddy tie your shoes enough. Why don't you try that for yourself? And then they don't. And I'm like, you did fantastic. So some things they tell me about on the backside. And they say, you know, I was thinking about calling you, but then I realized I probably can do this. And then they did it. And I got to celebrate with them.

Mm-hmm.

And they, they sort of realized that. Now on the, on the other side of that, there are times when people feel like they can't talk to me because of what we've gone through in those chaotic moments that were definitely not optimal moments.

Hmm.

And I tried to reassure them. I say, you know, what do you think I do with my problems? Because in my realm, if I try to hold on to the flock's problems, the staff's problems, the leadership's problems, and my problems, that's a problem. That's just a big problem. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go under. And so for my context, I say I believe powerfully in prayer and laying things down at a higher authority. And so whenever people say, you know, I didn't want to bother you with this because I know you're going through this, I say, what do you think I do with my problems? I don't hold them. I take them somewhere every day. And so I tell you what, it's like I'm running an errand. It's like, I'm going to go drop this off at the post office. It does me no harm for you to give me what you want me to drop off right there while I pray. And that's how I handle it.

Mm-hmm.

And so you do let people handle some things on their own when they need to. Again, it kind of goes back to having that discernment, a word aptly spoken. You say, I think you can do that. I believe in you. It's not because I don't want to be there or even that I can't be there. Even if I could be there and even if I wanted to be there, you can do that on your own. I believe in you. And you sort of give them that confidence and then watch them go, oh, and you watch them defeat that thing. And then like a mini leader is born and that makes them hungry for more. But then on the other side of that, I don't, I said, I still am remaining open saying, you can tell me your things. It's, I'm not that fragile. It's not going to break me to know. That you're there. As a matter of fact, whenever my wife's in treatment, it's up by the hospital. And so while she's getting treatment and she's sitting there, you know, watching a show, and we've got, you know, an hour and a half on the drip, okay, well, hospital's right over there. And I know that there are 3 people from our congregation there. And so then, and she's like, go for it. Because that's another person that understands that if I need to not be in this space, because everything is where it is, there's a team of nurses there, you know, watching her. And everything's fine, then I'm able to shift over into another space. And when you show up and they say, what are you doing here? I say, well, my wife's just next door. And so I've got some time and they see that you carve out time for them. And so it's really trying to, while you're already there, while you're already in that space, see if there's any other thing you can do while you're waiting, because a lot of times you're in a waiting chair and you just try to leverage anything. It's like, it's like whenever you're cleaning your house, you're like, all right, I'm already in this room. What else needs to be done while I'm already here.

Hmm.

So, you don't try to isolate your problems from people, but when you show up in those, in your chaotic moments with a peace that you have, and they're, they're almost like, how could you possibly be here when this is going on over here? I say, well, my family has peace because of what we really believe. And so I'm bringing that peace with you. I'm not adding to your chaos. If I, if I, if I am in a, and you have to have self-awareness. If I am in a chaotic headspace, I cannot go into those other people's rooms because I'll just make the storm worse. But if I walk in and, and they're saying something, something is in order, doesn't mean that it's, it doesn't mean that it's fully resolved, but there is a, an order and a sense of, of peace in that scenario. Peace multiplies.

Hmm. Yes, peace multiplies. Now, Eric, how long, how many years have you been in ministry?

Well, this ministry in Mountain Home since 2008. So it'll be 18 years this March.

18 years. Okay. So in that almost 2 decades of doing this, you know, from a green pea, and I like the word minister, because it's, it's a verb, right? It's something that you're— yeah, like you said, you go to the hospital and you minister to those people. Now, I know you have the experience difference of being a green pea that hasn't walked through the journeys that a lot of your flock had walked through in that first, especially first 5 years, I'd say probably.

Yeah.

How has ministering changed for you as your experience has grown? Like, you minister from a different place now. You have, you're gonna have You know, uh, you're gonna have the members in your flock going through things very similar to what you're going through. Uh, have you noticed— so, so 2 parts. Have you noticed how it changes how you minister? And then have you noticed how it has changed how they receive it because they know, they know it's not just lip service or you, because it comes from a place of experience?

Yes. Yeah. What I used to do, I was very idealistic and I wasn't one of those leaders that thought I had the answers and everybody needed to do it my way, but I thought that there was some sort of equation, right? There's some sort of process that you can do and it's 3 easy steps. And all of these leadership books that you read are, hey, this is the way. I've got the graph that if you take this quiz, all of these things, we'll solve it for you. Just give us a monthly subscription of $99, right? And it's like, oh, okay. But really, there's no plan for your people. Like your plan for your people, not other people's plan for their people, right? Not all content works in all contexts. And so I was taking all of these other people's thoughts and saying, well, this is what worked in all these other places. I'll try to adapt it for these people, but they're completely different people, as unique as a fingerprint, and there's situations they experience it completely differently. And so I realized quickly you cannot substitute just the years of experience in one place. I was taught to commit to at least 4 years. I started here as the youth minister of this church to commit to 4 years from like freshman year to senior year of high school for discipling students, because you have no idea if you leave every year or 2 what type of a disciple or other help you do for that time period. So I said, oh, I'll it to 4 or 5 years, and that's turned to 18. And I think that there's no substitute for experience in general, but whenever you have experience in one specific place, there's a level of trust that can't be bought. And so we have people at our church that have only been here a year or two, but they already trust me at a level of somebody that has been with me longer. Because we do have people that have been here for the full 18 years, and the more they're like, we're telling you, this is leadership team and the way we do things and the history, even my predecessor, the spiritual care that has been in this place. Imagine a church that has had 2 senior ministers. The guy before me was here 25 years, and I took over in my first full year was 2020. So tip of the hat to the guy who was like, you know what, I think it's my time to to be done, and he just sort of handed me the hot potato that went off. But 25 years, and then my first full year being 2020, so 6 years. And even then, I had been the youth minister here for many years and connected with these parents that had kids who are now adults, and some of my former youth sponsors are now on my eldership team. That is— consistency among leadership in an organization is huge, and people, when they come in and they know that history, They already buy in more than, okay, everybody, there's so much changeover in this organization. I'm going to enter with a degree of skepticism instead of this organization has had a history of stability. It's amazing how many abandoned buildings you can see in this country that have a sign on them that says under new management.

Hmm.

Because that doesn't mean anything. You know, it was under new management, but that business still went under and they didn't have any Any time to take that off of the sign. The business is like constantly trying to say, we have a new leader, everything's going to be better now. We have a new leader. It's like constantly, you just said I can't trust this place. But to say, but why don't businesses say we've been under the same management for 25 years? That sign to me is way more important.

Wow. No, that's solid. We've been under the same. Yeah. No, I love that. I never thought of it that way. Because you always think like in with, out with the old, in with the new. And so many people look at that sign, they're like, oh, That place is going to be so much better now. Not necessarily.

No, I usually look at those signs and I go, oh, they had a whole lot of problems last year. And somebody, they're like, we're going to be better from now on. But it's hard to change that.

No, absolutely. No, that's a solid observation. I love that.

Oh, I mean, it just happened. I was driving on my way here. And I saw this, this old gas station in our town that has been completely— people buy it, they try to fix it up, but then they just They, they give up on it and the weeds in the parking lot just keep getting taller and taller and taller. But this, but there's this vinyl banner that says under new management, but the windows are boarded up.

What an image.

Yeah, it, it, it says a lot, man. And then the organization that I've been in, ultimately, I believe it's been under the same management for all of time. So I'm just trying to just be, do right by the, by the, by the real person in charge.

So how, in a time where I think general statistics will typically comment that people stay at jobs much less than they used to, right? When you compare the boomer generations all the way down to the ones that are entering the workforce, it seems like that's pretty, from an average statistic, pretty accurate, right? That younger people tend to job hop more and those kinds of things. So Being a millennial like you, how has it, how has it been? You know, because so many people that we grew up with have had so many different jobs. I mean, I've had a lot of different jobs up until the last 14 years. But before that, it was, it was very, very changed a lot.

Yeah.

But especially adding the layer of the challenges you've experienced personally, remaining at the same place been a type of anchor for you?

It has. And we, we are in a small town, about 12,000, 13,000 people. And so the longer you're in that space, the more opportunity you have to reach out to the community. Like you mentioned that layer, there's, you know, your board, there's your staff, there's the people that you serve, but then there's these other people out there that have heard of your culture, they've heard of your organization, but they're not really a part of it. They're kind of on this Like maybe the front step or hearing about the reputation of your place. So being here 18 years, you know, I'm not saying like unknown in the town. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that when other places go through that sort of changeover so consistently, so frequently, eventually people go, you know, we've been on our 4th leader and this place over here seems to be having this, the same leadership. I don't fault people for leaving. their organizations if they need to. Because sometimes, for example, taking care of parents, we've got to go. And organizations completely understand. You need to go back home. We understand. And we don't want it. So, not everybody who leaves is doing anything wrong. But the transition that people feel emotionally, whether it is for a good reason or a not so good reason that the leader leaves, they still feel that weight of transition the same. Even if they're like, their tears are happy because their friend is going somewhere else, or their tears are sad because they're heartbroken about what happened, they're still tears. There's still like this heartache of transition. So being in one place for a long time has allowed for us to develop relationships deeply and quickly. And the more our roots are dug down deep here, the more we're able to go through a lot of storms together.

Because you've built that foundation.

Yeah, absolutely. It would take something very massive to be uprooted at this point. And I'm not, I'm not asking for that or anything. But I could see absolutely me staying in this same organization in the same town for a long time. And it's, it's in Mountain Home, Arkansas. And it's amazing. People are like, are you still in Arkansas? And I'm like, I need you to understand. This is not a prison, right? I'm not trapped here. This is a beautiful place with great people. We've built a life here. And that's what I mean by whenever leadership is investing in the people around them, you really are connecting yourself to those people, but you're actually getting back down into the deep parts of the foundation for your organization as a whole. Because just because you're going through something chaotic, your organization may go through something chaotic. Like whenever my first full year was 2020, Mm-hmm. Went through something chaotic. And I was glad that I was the leader at that time because I had already been here since 2008. And so, whenever we made decisions, it was a familiar voice saying, we're going to go about it this way. I don't know anybody who's doing it perfectly, but we can do it connectedly because I've been here long enough that I wasn't— I mean, somebody coming in in their first year with no trust really within the organization, Having this 2020-level chaos, that could have chewed that person up and spit them out. But saying, you guys know us, we're the same leaders, we're just in it, we're just same leaders, different capacity, but they know that voice. And so they'll follow a familiar voice through something chaotic more so than a voice that is unfamiliar. Because they're like, you know what, in times of chaos, what I'm really looking for is what's familiar. And so if you've been a consistent, good leader in those sort of peace times, then whenever the chaotic times come, they'll go with that familiar voice in an instant.

That's so true.

Just to get fuel to the fire, this lady, she, her great-grandchild has just been born in Little Rock a few weeks ago and he is not doing well. And so she calls me fairly frequently. You know, her whole family, we're praying for them. She messaged me on my way here and I said, I'll be praying on my way. I'll update the rest of the prayer team, all of that. And as she's called me, I'm sure that since I didn't answer, that she's not like, you know, she's not panicking because she knows that many other times I do answer and we talk for 20 minutes. It's because I value her. But just the fact that I missed that one call is not going to end our relationship with each other.

Mm-hmm. Because of the investment.

She knows there's, there's a real reason why he didn't answer.

No, that's true. So in, in, in the language of investment, I think a lot of times people, like you said earlier, people are after those, these are the top 3 things, you know, or the real culture where it's like 10 things you need to know about leadership, right? And so I find that a lot of things discussed on this show are long plays, right?

Yeah.

So like, that episode about gratitude was, you know, you need to do this for a daily habit at least 90 days before you really start seeing any change in your brain rewiring, those kinds of things. In our episode about marriage with, with Ashley, it was these are, these are these micro investments that you make that pay off in the long run over time. Leadership, obviously, 18 years is a super long time. It sounds like community is one of the deepest things that keeps coming through in this conversation. And I know it's frustrating to listeners who, you know, let's say they're in their 30s, 40s, maybe even 50s, and they're like, I don't have— I've not curated a community. that I think that sounds like that. Let's put it that way.

Yeah.

So what, what are some practical things? I mean, you've built community over time in multiple ways, in multiple contexts. What are some practical things you can give our audience of if they don't have anything like that? How can they start building that foundation?

Yeah, it's hard whenever you are starving for community, but community cooks at the pace of a crock pot. You know, and you're really hungry right now. And so you start to settle for some of those other things. I would just advise patience. I know that your, your soul is hungering for that connection in that community. But if you try to force it, you're just going to ruin the meal because it wasn't time yet. And so I would say trust. You can, you can even have a community. Within yourself. Okay. So this is going to sound like new age, but, and I really don't mean it that way. I just, my thoughts are with me. Like I talk to myself and what I say about myself, I start to believe about myself. Right. And so, so whenever I start saying things like, I'll be okay, this is, this is going to be fine. This is not going to take me down. I'm going to get through this personally. When I start to say those things, I'm talking to myself and it's like a little appetizer, right? Little chips and salsa before the meal that's taking forever. to cook comes out, you just say, all right, I'm just gonna just say what I know to be true about myself in this moment. Because if you just listen to your cravings, then your cravings will absolutely control you. And you're not leading, you're not leading yourself.

Hmm.

But it's really hard for a starving person to have table manners whenever the food, the community finally starts to show up and they start grabbing it all for themselves. It's like, oh, who invited this guy? You know, to the cookout. He's, he's like, you, whenever that community starts to happen, you need to appropriately take the portions. Maybe it's because it's getting close to lunch that I've moved to a food analogy from a computer analogy earlier, but it really is like, you know, okay, the community is starting to really get to that good temperature where we can start sharing it. Take a little, pass it on to the next person, let everybody start to get the community, and there's going to be enough. It'll come back around. But the moment somebody takes What's— it's, we've got a fresh batch of community. I'm gonna make it all about me. You just made it so that the next time we try this, it's gonna take even longer to make because people aren't gonna trust the process.

Hmm. Patience.

It's patience. And honestly, this is a word that I don't like and I don't wish it upon anybody, but suffering well. It is amazing how much community is established When people are going through the thick of it. That's why you have warriors that weep decades later at the funeral of people that they see every once in a while. But it's because they went through something together that was so cementing, so solidifying. They're wearing the same badges that they earned from that battle, and that sticks with them forever. So, I wish that community was really just accelerated in times of success.

Hmm.

Those are times of enjoyment, and you can sit back and absolutely enjoy what your hard work has brought you to. But really, if you want community that gets to those good times, you're going to have to go through hard times. Hard times are really what, what really bring people together. And then whenever the good times come, As a leader, you have to— just because people didn't go through that particular struggle, there are people at our church now that weren't with us in 2020, right? But you can't have them competing like, well, we're the 2020 people. We were in the foxhole and you guys are just— you're here in peacetime. Don't do that because you're going to actually create another hard time. Just, they're there. They're a part of your organization. You can say, hey, we're glad you're here. We went through this so you don't have to. So that you can enjoy this. What parent says to their kids, well, I grew up poor, so, and, or, or I grew up with all these struggles and I have to make sure to hand them off to you so you can have that. That's trauma dumping, right? So you say, I want to invite you into a space where we have done this work so that you can enjoy these and just be thankful for it. Don't create competing cultures just because you're trying to relive your war history days. You just say this, we went, we're all going to go through this. Guess what? We're preparing you in this community and training you in this community so that when the next one hits, we can trust that we're all going to be back to back, ready to go with each other.

No, I agree. And I think the way you phrased that made me think of— there are some— there's a— I mean, one particular way stands out that you can kind of manufacture this, this catalyst of suffering and how it How it can create depth and community. And like, so I do CrossFit, right? And that means I have to tell everybody, which is why it shows up in every episode.

Oh, yeah.

But I thought about that, like you said that there, I've noticed over the last 8 years of doing it. I mean, there's a reason why group activities like this that aren't physically enjoyable per se, that, that are a type of suffering, albeit willingly. That, uh, that people subject themselves to alongside other people that bonds them. And there have been times where like, man, I'm an introvert by heart. And sometimes meeting new people is tough. And then getting to, getting to an area of depth can be challenging. And, uh, and I also don't like small talk. So I don't like the process of getting, you know, getting to the, to the deep with all the, the stuff that I don't care about. And so I've noticed like over the years, I'm like, man, these people that I work out with on the regular become like, I've like, there's this, there's this bond that's formed very quickly. Like, so if you're, if you're, if you're hungry for, uh, for community and you want, you want a microwave to try this with, I think that's something, you know, go to a, go to a, you know, it doesn't have to be CrossFit. It can be a yoga class. It can be some sort of fitness class where there's multiple people going through the same thing. And you can leverage this suffering well together concept because you'll— I would say for me, even 4 weeks with the same people on, you know, even just 2 to 3 days a week can create something really, really complex and rewarding that can then lead— that can then start to build certain levels of foundation of community for you.

Yeah. And it doesn't have to be— when people think CrossFit, you know, they think of people that are really good and in shape like you. It can be something like a walking buddy. And I would even invite you to these people just to think outside of the box. Like, don't try to think of somebody that's your own age group. There's a church in our town that has like a walking track in their family life center, and everybody just goes and they walk around. Imagine just being for your own health. Walking is good for you. But suddenly you've got like 4 grandmas, like this walking group, and they're just like, we love you. It's so great. Next thing you know, you're just You know, they're knitting you socks and all this kind of stuff. And you're like, they're like, what can we do for you? If you, if you only have people in your life that are in the same station of life as you, you're not going to get any other outside information. We've talked about going through all of this to get this wisdom. There are people who have gone through these things that are older. They've raised kids. They've sent them out into the world. And so if you just surround yourself with peers that also have teenagers and you're just talking about, isn't teenage life difficult? But you don't have anybody that's on that next level who says, buckle up, it'll be worth it. It'll be great. You may have a hard time in the middle. Your relationship's going to go through some hard times, but they come back. And to hear that assurance is good. There was something else I wanted to say about like thriving in chaos and these things that are not optimal. There is a huge difference between being able to survive in your own chaos that you create And being able to survive in the chaos, external chaos, right? So some people just, they, they are, it's like the, the arsonist who puts out fires, right? They're like, I create the chaos and then I fix it and it works for me, right? I can survive in the chaos that I create. You're not, you're not really surviving, thriving like you think you are. And all you're doing is passing that chaos onto other people. And you can tell if you've got high turnover in your organization, people, or distance in relationships, people that thought they could trust you and suddenly like, oh, we don't really get together that much anymore, that sort of thing. It's probably because you, you need to self-examine. I'm thriving in chaos, but it's the chaos that I'm making so that I can step in and solve it. That's a completely different type of chaos. And that one, that's one that distances and disintegrates. It's not one that builds any sort of trust and cohesiveness within your organization. So, not all chaos is created equal. We can still feel it. It's like a controlled experiment. I'm going to create this problem. It may not be intentionally. If you lack self-awareness, you may be inadvertently causing problems that you're going to step in and fix so that you get the dopamine hit. That doesn't connect to anybody else's brain.

Hmm.

Suddenly, they're just worn out and like, wow, we went through this. And you're like, but I fixed it. Doesn't anybody like me now? No, they know deep down you started that problem. Yeah, you know, that's why this song started. We didn't start the fire. That's a that's the very deep leadership song. If you hear it, it's like I didn't start it, but I'm gonna fix it. Then people go, "You're great," versus I started this problem because I was not aware of my faults, but I'm gonna fix it. They don't really pat you on the back. They're like, "Well, good. You should fix your own problems. Why would I pat you on the back for?" fixing your own chaos. So that, that not all chaos is created equal.

That's true. And outside of leadership, we all know, you know, those people that are just high drama factor, right? Like, high drama or high anxiety. And sometimes when you look at that, you're like, in that case, this is, this is self-created, this is self-generated. And not everyone, not everyone even knows how to fix their own problems, right? So some are just drowning, but you look at it and you're like, man, like, this is a, this is a circumstance of your own creation. And like you said, that doesn't build community, that actually builds distance because people are like, this, this, I gotta, this person's too much.

Yep. What they end up doing is building a sandbox around that leader and then let that leader build his own little sandcastles. And then they, you know, come in like, good job. He's like, I'm doing great. That is not a long-lasting leadership. They really, they're like, just put him in that space or her in that space. Let them just do what they do. We'll do the real work around them and the board won't know. We'll all keep our jobs or whatever the case may be. That's— that may still accomplish some goals, but it's way better for there to be a level of trust and integration within all of the levels from the top down. It's really bad when the people that are the direct reports are protecting the leader from their own personality because they're just— they're not aware, but they're in authority.

And I've seen that also get get bitter to get sour, right? Where you can see, you know, sometimes you'll see it in middle management or even with the employees that they, they have some, some type of self-awareness where they're like, it's, it doesn't matter if the boss is here or not. We're the ones that run it. You know, like they almost have this, like, you know, their dialogue is like, it's like, hey, where's the boss? And they're like, it doesn't, I don't know. And it doesn't matter because—

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

And leader, there is a group chat about you that you're not in.

Yeah.

It exists. And you've got to be okay with it existing because that's fine. You don't need to be in all of that. But hopefully they're saying things that are true and good. And hey, I know they kind of had a rough day, but we know we can handle this. That's okay. But if they're starting to say, well, we all know so-and-so can't do it. So what are we going to do? That's, that's a problem. So don't let that group chat be all about your inefficiencies.

Another question I had for you is when the storm gets the strongest, are there things that you have to stop doing to kind of simplify and reduce things down? Like, is there any, any process that you go through of like, in this time, in this season, I need to scale back? Do you, uh, do you have any process like that to get through?

I would say you have to have that process built up over years as you add things.

Mm-hmm.

And so whenever we, whenever we are in these times where everything seems to be calm and fine and we're adding things, maybe I'm on the board of this organization or I volunteer over here, all of these things, they need to be placed in an importance category from the onset. You don't just throw them all in the same closet.

Right.

You have to go through the process of sorting them out as you're in the middle of that chaotic moment. But if you know this is tertiary, this is secondary, this is primary, as you acquire these things, whenever the storm comes, you know exactly what you need to cut so that it doesn't sink your organization first and foremost. You have those things all ready to go. So, you're not trying to make that decision while you're in that mode. You make those decisions of what goes as soon as that's a part of your organization.

That reminds me of one of my favorite systems that the Navy SEALs use of prioritize and execute, right? So oftentimes, people, even in your daily to-do list, you know, you're like, man, I go into the day, I have 10 left over from yesterday, all the interruptions that are gonna stack into my day that I don't even know about. I end the day with 30. And I actually got 20 done, but you don't see that, right? And so, they always use the prioritize and execute. And that doesn't insinuate that you get everything done, but it makes it to where, you know, you're sorting in that priority order. What's primary? Okay, these things need to be done first. And then also, like you said, when you're looking to cut, you know, what is at the bottom and what, you know, to save your— that word you used earlier, margin, such a critical word. You know, when your margin thing thins out, you know, what are the things that are going to free up that margin for you that you've sorted that way?

And it's important that as you add them, like, you know, in your mind, if something happens, this is going to be the first to go. But you can treat it that way while you're, while you're in it, right? Like, you don't show up and be like, well, this isn't even that important.

It's not a big deal.

I'm gonna cut bait at the first chance. You know, you don't do that. But then, but then whenever everybody, the chaos happens, and it's, it's, it can be very public or even private, it doesn't have to be public. It can be something that you just have a close circle that knows about. Whenever you leave those outside things that were the first to go, they're not glad you're gone. They're like, oh yeah, I never really cared anyway. So, you still have to show up in those spaces as you can. It's just really self-preservation. Your body does this. If you're out in the freezing cold, your body goes, well, you know what? Captain of 10 is not that important. We're going to lose our fingers because the blood needs to go to a more important place. This is a natural order of things. And nobody wants to consider— so that then is true whenever you get dropped by somebody, right? You get cut out by somebody's— they're going through something and they just don't have time for you. And you're that first finger that gets chopped off so there's more blood to that person's more important aspects. You can't take that personally because you're just proving why you got cut off in the first place. Because it's like, yeah, exactly. That's why you're gone. Because I have to manage what I'm going through and maintain my margin. And you're over there proving why I let you go.

Hmm. That's right. That's right. I love what you said about the multi— the multi-generational aspects of community.

Yeah. Yeah.

It made me think about how— now this isn't— suffering doesn't always— suffering and challenges don't always work this way. In that, like, as you age, they get more severe. But there's this concept where your past challenges that you make it through, you're, you know, whether we want to call it climbing a mountain or, or getting through the valley, they prepare you for what's next, right? And these, these combinations. But, you know, the things that, you know, a lot of kids worry about in high school that are paramount end up being, you know, someone older can come alongside and, and, and not minimize or make fun of those things, acknowledge that in that context, they would be, and what they've experienced in life so far, probably the biggest deal they've ever experienced. But give some context to that of like, hey, in the grand perspective, kind of give that reframe.

Yeah.

But I think that's the way, like you said, the people that have been through, they're empty nesters now, they have been through the challenges, with their children and in careers and those kinds of things. And, you know, as people age, they, they have more, they have more physical issues, whether it's personal or with the people that they love. And so those challenges build over time. And if there's someone, like you said, who has suffered well, you can actually learn a lot from someone else that, that has gone through things before you, right? And so really, That requires you to engage that person and to listen and to allow them to bless you with, with their wisdom and their experience, because that can be something that really helps put certain things in perspective for you to allow you to suffer well, right?

Yeah. So I was at a coffee shop recently, and there was a conversation with a couple of 20-year-old guys. They were just off to the side. I didn't know them. But somebody from my church came in and they saw me at the coffee shop and they said, hey, you know, talk to me about church stuff. And then after they left, These two twenty-year-olds just came over and they said, "Hey, we are looking for somebody that can give us some mentorship, some wisdom advice kind of thing." So you you're older than us, and they were talking about spiritual things, and like what would you give us some advice? Now, not not every twenty or you know twenty-two-year-old is coming up like, "Please sir, give us wisdom." Like that doesn't always happen. But you you need to be open to being able to share what you learned in your suffering. Do not waste the wisdom that you so fought so hard for. Don't let that just— imagine suffering and gaining experience and then just pouring it out on the ground because you're doing what? You're protesting that you had to go through it? You isolate yourself and you keep that? That does not then become an elixir for somebody else. It becomes poison for you because you're just staying in that same mode. So, I would say you've got to find opportunities to share. You used the word, you know, you're not minimizing their situation. Mentoring is not minimizing, right? It's really just saying, this is exactly what you're going through. I've been through something like it, not it exactly, because every situation is different, really, especially trying to mentor teenagers. I mentor once a month at our high school, and every— I've been doing it for probably 16 years now. And every generation of these kids, there were pre-COVID mentoring kids, and then there was Post-COVID mentoring kids, every group of high schoolers that we've had, we see them sophomore year, junior year, and senior year. So we're with them for 3 years, and then we start over with a fresh group. They face a completely different set of problems. And so if I go in with my experience as a child in the pre-internet, pre-iPhone era, that's not going to instill trust. But if I can get down to the core level of, you know, that feels like you're worried about your future, you're feeling a little insecure in who you are right now. You're panicking because you're expected to know what you're going to do for the rest of your life for 60 years until you retire and you're 16 years old. But the moment you show up again with this peace and say, it's okay for you not to know what you want to do right now, because my mentor friend and I, we also did not know what we were going to be doing. The things that we are doing right now were not what we thought we were going to be doing when we were— When you're 8, you want to be a policeman or a firefighter, and then it comes to, you know, I want to be an influencer. I said, students like, that's what I want to be. I want to be a YouTuber. And for me, I'm like, there was nobody, nobody in high school or whenever I was in high school that wanted to be a YouTuber. It wasn't even around yet. So you, you can't prepare them for something that may not exist yet.

Hmm.

Right. But you can prepare them in the things that are true in every generation is to know who you are, be self-aware, have a great core of people that you can trust. And then that's— that is what really helps you get through those other things that change with the years because there are some things that never change.

That's so true. It made me think about, you know, with bullying, you know, back in our day, bullying could have been severe. But when you went home, you left it at the school.

Yeah, it was local.

Yeah, exactly. And now that, you know, when you talk to young kids that are wrestling through that and experiencing that, It's a little bit different now with the digital age. You know, if they have a device in their hand, then that follows them through into the doors of their home. You know, there's, there can be a lot of, uh, a lot of issues that come with that. And, and it takes someone who hasn't— us, like, who hasn't experienced that to hear that. And it makes me, I'm like, man, wow, that, that is tough. That's another, another dimension, um, that we didn't have, uh, the context or framework for. And so it, it, it, I think it draws out when you're willing to listen and have that patience to someone experiencing something similar but different, you know, to have the humility to, like you said, like, I've been through something similar. I don't know how, you know, and I have the humility of like, I don't know how necessarily helpful this is, but in the dialogue you're able to share, um, and, and, and maybe offer additional thoughts, dynamics that can resonate.

And you have to also ask for permission. You know, just because you've been through it and you see the pattern doesn't mean that they're ready to listen. You know, it's like asking somebody who, if they're focused on their situation and their chaos, and that's all they can hear is the voice inside their own head, you coming up, you see it in like TVs or movies, whenever the person that's there to help shows up to the person who's shell-shocked, their voice is muffled. It's like, I'm here to help you. And it's like, but they can't hear it. They don't know what's going on because they're in shock. So you have to sometimes just be a presence that's there, that's calming. Like, hey, I'm here. I'm here. You're noticing the patterns and you're looking for the right opportunity where they're open. They're saying, you know, I don't even know what to do. You say, well, okay, I'm here. I'm present. And I've been noticing some patterns. If I have your permission, I'd like to share something that I think would be helpful. And if they go, yeah, I'm open. If you try to force that, It's just not going to work. They will probably do something the exact opposite of the advice you give because they're just so frustrated with the fact that you felt like you could interject and make it about you. Their chaos, even if it's a chaos that you experienced, their chaos is not about you. And so you can tell somebody that has not fully gone through and learned the final sort of chapter of that wisdom of chaos is whenever you can sort of turn that page. And so, because when you show up and you're like, I've been through it too. And it's like this, and you force yourself, you're actually still going through it. And you haven't, you haven't shut that door yet. You haven't fully healed from that because you're actually still trying to create more chaos with that. But whenever you, whenever you can have that patience to wait for the person to be ready for you to give that wisdom and ask for permission, and then when they're open, then you can say, all right, uh, this has been here for a while. It's healed and it's fine now.

Mm-hmm.

So when I open it, it's not gonna spill out You know, like a can of snakes that just pops out. I'm gonna open it and you can observe it. And I keep it with me, not because it's— I want to remember or I want to relive all this, but because I think it's useful for people and it's useful for me at times. And then you close it and you set it back down. But if you open it and it just erupts everywhere, you're not helping them.

Yeah.

It's, it's shared chaos, right? But it's just, they've got an erupting volcano and you opened up your volcano and you just added more lava. You didn't do anything to help the situation.

So true. So true. I have a mentor who one of her principles is to never share something until you've— this needs to be applied with a caveat, right? Because then otherwise, you'd never share anything with anyone.

But we're talking about the mentor capacity.

Exactly. She's like, never share something with them.

About what I'm going through with my leaders. This is the people that you're trying to help.

That's right. That's right. She's like, you never share something with, with those people that you haven't fully Fully handled because like you said, it's, it's, it's gonna, it's gonna, it's not gonna have the ability to support and heal that person because there's still potential for damage.

Yep.

Because that'll come from you and then spread to them. So yeah, that's, that's, that's—

You've given them half a roadmap and, but what they don't see is that on the other half of the bridge is out. And you just told them how to get on the highway that'll take them over a cliff because you haven't given them the full route. So, but like I said, you can even say that. It does a great hedging of that if you say, just so you know, I'm kind of going through something similar, but I'm at this stage right now. I'm not telling you how to get to the completed chapter because I'm not there myself.

Mm-hmm.

If you have enough self-awareness to say, hey, I'm in it with you right now. You're a little bit behind me. But this is how I got to where I am. And it's up to you to decide if where I am is where you want to be.

Hmm.

And if they go, I don't want to be where you are, then you have to go, maybe I'm not where I should be right now. But if you're like, yeah, our situation isn't over, you know, we're still going through this storm, but this is how we at least got to the eye of the hurricane, and then have them go, okay, well, I'm going to get at least to that eye of the hurricane. And then we can then go to, to the next step together. You're always going to be just acknowledging, I'm not through it, but I'm further, can help that person take what you're saying with that understanding instead of like, you've got the whole thing figured out. Oh no, I don't. But this is, you're going through something that I did figure out and I can help you with at least that part. And you just give them that little bit.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and going through that, I mean, we've talked about You've touched on it multiple times in our conversation. I want to ask, is there anything with a different illustration? So, you know, the illustration of the cup being full or empty, and then the phrase of you, you can't fill from an empty cup, right? And so is there anything additional that you want to say about when, like, how you replenish When you have to fill, you can't fill from an empty cup. Any additional thoughts that you haven't already touched on that, that'll help in that scenario?

Yeah. What I believe is deeply rooted in scripture and what Jesus says, that the spring of life will well up from within the person. I think that is important that there, I believe that there is a source that you have to go to like a deep well, and it never, ever, ever runs dry, which means you will never, ever go thirsty. The problem is, is whenever we're searching somebody else's cup, right? I'm at 50%. This person's at 90%. So I want them to go down to 80 so I can get to 60. You are still thirsty and you just made them a little more thirstier, right? So I would say the source matters. It has to be a source that goes so deep that it will never run out. Because if you're draining from other people, right? If you're pulling from their cups while you still have a hole in yours, right? You need to start up a They're like, what's going on? What do I need to fix? I keep losing water. Then I say that that cup needs to be sort of structurally repaired as best as you can. But then you make sure you're pulling from a source that is not going to then drain somebody else because there'll be well-intentioned people who say, my cup's full, let me pour into you. And they may inadvertently take from their margin to give to you.

Hmm.

But if they're not connected to a source that fills them, so I'm just saying, consider your source. And I believe spiritually there's a source that is Perpetual. It begs you to come and fill up there. And I think the reason why so many cups are at 50 instead of 100 or 90 is because we're just all trying to share the same, the same source and not actually— we're just like, I'm— I've got some, I'll give it to you, but it better come back around to me in at least 3 years. You know, we're all just pouring the same amount of water.

Mm-hmm.

Other people's cups instead of Going and letting everybody's cups fill up from a, from an eternal source.

Yeah, from, I mean, that's the scarcity mindset versus, you know, the abundance, right? There is, there is enough to go around if your source is the right, the right source.

And I think what we're settling for is I trust my team around me, and they'll give me what they have. And we'll share what little we all have. But if you don't have a team that you can trust, Defensiveness comes into play, you know? So as long as you trust everybody to share what little we have, it'll be fine. It'll be on my plate for a little bit and then I'll give it up when the time is right. But if you don't have a team that is really cohesive and trusting, then they're just going to hold onto it. Like, no, I don't care about your chaos anymore. I just don't want to go back to where I was. So I'm going to hold onto this. In fact, I'm going to take it and I'm going to go. And then suddenly you've lost pieces from the table that everybody was getting from instead of— so, so yeah, you can trust the people around you and share. But it's even better whenever you're added to from another source, and there's plenty to go around.

Very solid. Any final thoughts that you have about optimizing when things aren't optimal?

Yeah, I would say keep an eye for the people that are dependent upon you, you know, whether it's your dependents, like in a tax sense from your household, or if it's dependents, people that they depend upon your leadership in the workforce. Or even in spiritual leadership, don't get so focused on your chaos that you forget to fight for the people that are dependent upon you. It's amazing how you can find that whenever you just help these others with situations that they're going through, that that actually helps you in your situation as well. You know, helping your kids with their situation. You know, I didn't make the play, or I didn't do what I needed to do. I've got this situation. And you step in as that person that's a helpful presence, a peaceful, helpful presence, and you resolve that. It's amazing how you take that, oh, we— I helped my employee with their situation. I helped. That, that quiets some of your chaos.

Yes.

Because, you know, you stepped in and did something. And what you really, really— when it feels like your boat is just swamped, when you start to focus on other people as you can, then, and help them. It's amazing how you realize, you know, I think they got through that. I'm going to get through this too. So, just make sure that the people that are dependent upon you, that you're looking out for them and you're their champion instead of the person that is just sort of draining power from everybody.

That makes me think of, you know, the last step of the 10 steps for, you know, like AA or things like that is that you're required to help somebody else. You know, when I talk to college kids, I work with college kids every semester and that are dealing with tough things. They always feel they always feel this assumption that to I have to have I have to have these areas in check and have to be I don't want to say perfect, but like they have to like with the AA example, like I can't be an alcoholic anymore before I try to help somebody else. Right. And, and part of healing is actually being able to take the focus from yourself. Like you said, that there's, there's a type of healing that can take place when you're not internally fixated.

Yeah.

And when you start focusing on other people and how to help them, it, it takes another layer of knowledge to, in order to teach someone else and to help someone else.

And so it's actually a type of, it deepens that, that healing and that experience and that knowledge to be able to, to focus on helping Yeah, I like to say that whenever you're trying to give of yourself to help people, whatever it is, whether it's monetary or time, emotional support, strength, I say you cannot give what you do not have, but what you can have is an inability to give. So you, you have to give something. It doesn't have to be everything, right?

Mm-hmm.

If you don't have it, don't give it, but you cannot be somebody That cannot give, or else you are, you, you're not actually looking for solutions. You're, you're not looking to survive the chaos. You're actually enjoying it. Right. And so when you're enjoying the chaos, you just kind of keep this, keep the fires burning so you can continue to play the victim. And that's, that's not helpful for the people that are bleeding resources to try to help you, but you're, you're just never going to get there.

That's very solid, man. This has been a, this has been a great discussion.

Yeah. It's actually been helpful for me. It's been helpful for me in my— as I'm talking about that, helping other people in their chaos, I'm like, that's me. Hopefully, this is helpful because I've enjoyed this time. Thank you so much for asking me to be a part of it.

Absolutely. All right, folks. Well, thanks for listening to the Optimizing Beyond podcast. Remember, growth happens when you take action. So, subscribe, share this with a friend, and most importantly, put what you learned into practice. And until next time, remember, keep moving forward because daily anything changes everything.