Optimizing Marriage: Daily Decisions That Keep You Connected | Ft Ashley Negron

It's so easy to just like walk through life like side by side together without actually like being turned towards each other, if that makes sense. You know, you could think about it like, um, you could be like on 2 individual little rafts in the, in the river and you're, you're holding hands and you're just side by side together, just kind of letting life happen for you. Without that intentionality, it's so easy to just kind of let life take you. where it will as you're riding side by side. And so I think it's really important to intentionally see each other every single day.

Welcome to the Optimizing Beyond podcast. I'm Josh Negron, and this show's all about sharing lessons, ideas, and strategies that sharpen your thinking, strengthen your habits, and push you to grow beyond comfort zones. Let's dive in. All right, today's episode I'm really excited about because I am joined by my better half, Miss Ashley. Welcome to the show today.

Hello, I'm excited.

I'm excited too, because we've been married for how long now?

Since 2009.

Yeah, it's probably better that you answer that. a really long time. And we've known each other about a year before that. We thought it'd be great to talk about marriage. It's something that we're, we're asked advice about a lot, aren't we?

Yep.

And so thought that maybe this would be a great episode to talk about how to optimize in your marriage, especially since we, we've been married long enough now to see other relationships hit their peaks. And unfortunately, do some other things like end in some really bad ways. And so this is definitely something that's close to you and I's hearts to help people with their relationships. And yeah, so share a little bit about why this is a passionate topic for you, if you would.

Yeah. Well, kind of like what you said, we've had so many— been long enough now that a lot of our friends are hitting a point in their marriage where they are deciding they're unhappy or it's time to move on to something different. And so how do you How do you keep from that happening? How do you keep from waking up one day and going, I'm unhappy. I don't know you. I don't know how we even got here. Like, what does it mean to not have that happen? And how do you, you know, ward against that? And so just wanna, yeah, wanna share some of the lessons that we've learned over the last, um, 15+ years. And yeah, help, help others optimize their marriage as well. And, you know, I'm grateful that I genuinely can say like, you are my best friend and you are the person that I love spending time with. And so how do we help other people land in that boat as well? So, yeah.

Well, I have to say ditto on that for sure. Um, yeah, so we're, like I said earlier, we're both super passionate about this. So today we plan on covering ways to be intentional. Uh, we think that intentionality is the theme of today's conversation, especially. So we will focus on ways to be intentional specifically. And then what kind of communication is helpful in that intentionality? And then at the end, we'll cover some things about how that plays into our faith and even gender roles, which is a more risky topic these days.

Yes.

But I think that's more relevant than ever, I would say. And probably we'll have you talk 100% of that time, just so I'm not crushing your soul or whatever. So let's start out by talking about intentionality as a whole to introduce this. And so taking those daily steps towards each other, what is— talk to me a little bit about what, what that means from your point of view, Ashley. Yeah.

So I think with that, you have to actively see the other person. You have to— it's so easy to just like walk through life, like side by side together without actually like being turned towards each other, if that makes sense. You know, you can think about it like, um, you could be like on 2 individual little rafts in the, in the river, and you're, you're holding hands and you're just side by side together, just kind of letting life happen for you.

Hmm.

And so without that intentionality, it's so easy to just kind of let life take you where it will as you're riding side by side. And so I think it's really important to intentionally see each other every single day. Now that's going to look different. You know, what has— what works for us is going to be completely different than what works for other people. There's a reason that they're— huh?

Right.

Yes.

Yeah, potentially. You're right, right.

Yes. Yeah. So, um, you know, there's a reason that you see so many little like random memes on Instagram that talk about like, my love language is sending my spouse a million Instagram Reels or memes a day, right? And that's one little way that you can tell the other person that you're thinking about them or, oh, hey, I thought this was really funny and I thought of you, or, oh my gosh, I can't wait to watch this together with you later. Right? Like, I think that you're going to find this hilarious and we're going to laugh, laugh together later. And so what are just those little things that you can intentionally do to tell your spouse that you see them? And that you're thinking about them. It just, yeah, it just takes stopping and little things every single day.

I agree. I like the analogy you said earlier about a river current. And I think that is just a really great way to articulate even how people who, whose marriages aren't doing that well, they kind of start using that language, particularly when things go bad. They, they, they say things like, you know, I just feel like we've drifted apart. I don't know if I know that person anymore. They're not the person I married. That's a, that's a super common one. And I think that just, that indicates even more so clearly that it's this kind of drift that can happen if you're not being intentional. And the way I view it even more so is that I do think it is like a river current in that If you're not actively swimming against the current, it's taking you. And it's taking you not only maybe drifting apart, but also it may be taking you— it takes effort to grow together. I think when no effort is given, then you actually drift apart no matter what. Right. And so I think, I think that if that intentionality isn't given, that the natural result will be over time, right? We talk about on this show all the time that daily decisions, right? Anything changes everything. And so even in your marriage, if you think that everything's good and everyone's good to go, and there's not that intentionality, then then then it'll drift away. And I love when we talked before the episode. You you've done a lot of work in the nonprofit world, and you talk about how this can happen to a not-for-profit where they call it mission drift, right? Like three years down the line. They can recognize, hang on a minute, like this is not necessarily what we set out to do. This doesn't match our mission statement. And obviously sometimes that goes in a good direction, like unexpected, and you end up doing something different. And then other times it just can be a real crisis for, for, for, for a nonprofit trying to do good work, realizing that they're off mission, off track. So I agree. And you, you already mentioned some ways to be intentional, right, in the scheduling time together.

So.

So yeah, sending, sending texts and memes and all those things. You and I also, we travel a lot, but to some people that have families, they'll be like, well, yeah, you guys don't have any kids. So obviously you have the freedom to go anywhere, everywhere, uh, at any point. But what would you say to, to those, to those families that do have children in, uh, you know, especially most of our friends do, it doesn't have to be big, right? How can you go small?

Right. You know, you can just do a little like overnight Saturday, Sunday kind of thing, or even like sending your kids somewhere else and staying home, right? Like it can be as simple as just having that time together, or taking a drive on an evening that nobody gets carsick, you know, those kinds of things as well. But it's, you know, some of our favorite times together and our best conversations together have been in the car Because it's harder to be on your phone. It's harder, you know, you— and sometimes even it's better to have really hard conversations in the car because you don't have to be like face to face staring in each other's eyes deeply, right? Like—

That's right.

Yeah. That's a way to be able to like think and process together. Um, some of our best times of like dreaming of what we want the future to be or what some of our future goals look like, you know, where we're headed as a family, have happened In those car rides or those, those times away. And so those things can be, they don't have to be big and crazy. You know, we have a set of friends that they take one week is a family vacation that they take together with everybody. And then another week is just the two of them and celebrating that time together and that time away. And so if that's something to obviously like finances play a role into that, who watches your kids? There's so many things that go into that. But if that's something that you can do, I highly recommend that. You know, we, We cherish those times away. We even take like games to play together so that we don't have to be on our phone. Also, like we tend to go and leave the country so that we don't have our phones and we, you know, or take a cruise and don't buy the Wi-Fi and those different kinds of things because it's, it's in, again, it's that time away and disconnecting from the world around you and being able to go do fun things together, experiencing things together. We've, we've taken some trips. That have had some real logistical challenges to them.

Hmm.

But actually, like, it was an incredible opportunity to see how far we had come as a couple together and to reflect back on like, oh, hey, like, think about like 3 years ago us and how we would've handled all of these challenges that happened on that specific trip.

Hmm.

And how we might've been at each other's throats and we might've been miserable together. And, and how would we, how we've grown. Through those times. And because we had been working on ourselves, which is a lot of the things that you talk about on here, because we had individually been working on ourselves, when we came up against these logistical, what felt like challenge after challenge after challenge after challenge, right? We could navigate those well together. Um, and so I think that those, it's hard to experience those in your every day-to-day life, if that makes sense. And so yeah, taking trips is one of our favorite things to do together. So.

I totally agree. And we had talked earlier about how finding fun activities together to do together is another one of the things that we do to connect. Sometimes I hear couples say, well, I mean, he's into, he's into cars, and he's into guns. And like, those are both super boring. And, you know, and like, whatever, you know, The lady might be into might not be very interesting for the husband. So what are, what are some suggestions that you have? Or how have you gotten in? How have we, from your perspective, found some of those things together?

Yeah, you know, I think it's even things as simple as like, sometimes it's not the actual activity together, but it's being in the same space while those activities are happening. So, you know, one of the things that you love to do is you have a sim racing setup in, in one of our spare rooms. And, you know, that's something that you love to do. That's really like a one-person kind of a thing, right? And so I got a really fun reading chair and I sat next to you and I kind of out of the corner of my eye am watching, but I'm reading or I'm working on whatever it is, that research that I'm doing, or I'm playing a game on my phone or whatever. In that instance, it's just the physical being together. Um, that, um, is, is a bonding experience in that way. You know, we've also like found like things that together we can be interested in doing. And so, you know, it's things like playing pickleball or, you know, finding a sport that both of us enjoy watching together. You know, I also— you're lucky, I happen to also be a car girl. And so, you know, that means that we love watching Formula 1 together and different kinds of things like that. And so just, you know, or hiking or You know, going on walks, go to the gym together, whatever that looks like, finding that common ground together. And if you can't find things that both of you are like, yes, we want to do this together, find things that you can do in the same space at the same time. That's— it's more about the actual being together and the connection that happens through those activities than the actual activities themselves.

That's a really good point. I remember when we were researching that in like, in psychology, you and I discovered that there's actually an interesting amount of bonding that can still take place when 2 people are doing even 2 separate things in the same space. And so we kind of leveraged that early on. Um, like you mentioned, in, in like, if you know, you have somebody who's interested in something and maybe it's a one-person activity, or maybe you're not just super interested. I have a lot of friends who are car guys, obviously, and going to car shows is a thing that they do. And sometimes their wives are super into it. Sometimes they're not, but they come to hang out. They connect with the people. So that can be one avenue. I know another lady who, she loves reading. So she goes with her husband. She gets to read while he's driving. And then she, you know, she hangs out when everyone's parked and talking, but So it's just finding that way to be together. I think, I think that's absolutely spot on.

And usually, as long as you feed us and get us coffee, we're pretty happy to tag along, you know?

That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. What a blessing, right? So we had also talked about regular check-ins. Now, this is, this is something that, again, I, when I was studying to become a therapist, that was, that was something that, that even just relationally was something that was super important in relationship check-ins, right? To see like, You know, hey, before things get bad, be like, hey, just checking. Is everything okay? Are you okay? Are we okay? Different versions of that question. I don't recommend saying all of them at once. Like, from my perspective, I always feel like it's a win-win for me to check. I call it checking the oil, right? I, you know, so for me, if there's nothing wrong, I put a deposit in your emotional bank account that I'm, I'm wanting to check. I am wanting to be aware. If there's something that needs to be brought to my attention, I would like to know. Sometimes it's out of the blue, it just pops in my mind and I want to check. Other times, you know, maybe we get some bad news from a friend about their relationship or their marriage. And I'm like, ooh, this is a good reminder to check. Hey, are we good? Like, look at that. That sucks. Are we good? And again, it's a win-win for me. If there's nothing that you need to say, we're good. And then, you know, and then, but if there's something that's been on your mind, that's again, that's, it's good for you because it gives you an opportunity to say something. If you've been like, ah, I've kind of been kind of waiting for the right time, you're like, sweet. And then also for me, obviously, if there is something that you bring up, then boom, game on. There's a, there's a wonderful chance to, uh, to improve or, or do something there. So how do you view those moments when we traverse in there? Yeah.

You know, those are, those are important. And I think the thing that is big with those is like, if you're the person asking, you have to be willing to receive whatever your spouse says back to you if they're, if they do choose to bring something up. I also think there is an element of discernment in there as well of what you choose to bring up. You know, I know that there are times Especially as I've gotten a little bit older, that I, my, as a female, my, my hormones and my emotions kind of go in waves and different things happen. And there are times that I am really, really frustrated, but I have to stop and realize like, and, and process and think through like, okay, is this about this situation? Am I really that frustrated or annoyed or whatever? Or is this a me like, you know, waiting and Discerning if this is something worth bringing up, um, rather than just kind of this emotionally explosive kind of a conversation. Discerning what, what that means. And if I choose to bring it up, doing it in a kind manner. You know, when, even when we were doing like premarital counseling, our counselor told us like, you guys seem to have like these rules of engagement when you are having conversations. Mm-hmm. And to avoid words like never and always, right? Like those are fighting words and they're never true. They're not. It's never always and never. And so how do you do that? Not in a way to be mean, but in a way of like, hey, I am realizing I need X, Y, and Z from you. Or this habit or this thing is not helping me to feel like you see me and you love and you care about me.

Hmm.

Um, and then as the other person, you have to be willing to take that in, not get defensive, not just start firing back, not becoming mean or unkind, and going, okay, well, how? And, and then asking questions too, you know, asking further questions of, well, how, you know, if I did change this, what does that look like? Or how, how will it be perceived if I'm doing this? How will, you know, There's a million ways that you could, a million questions that you could ask. But I think, you know, one of the rules that a mentor actually taught us was always assuming positive intent. Very rarely is your spouse out to hurt your feelings or to belittle you or to be mean to you or any of those things. Odds are most of the time, unless you're in, you know, you're already in treacherous waters, your spouse is not out to hurt you.

Mm-hmm.

And so how do you filter that through who you know that they are and who the character that you know that they have, and then going forward, what does that look like? And so, you know, I think it's, it's always assuming positive intent and then going from there.

That's a super— that's, I'm glad you touched on it. It's one of my, one of my cardinal rules with all relationships, especially the ones that I, well, it helps me in the ones that I'm very close to. And then also the ones that I don't know super well. And that's always filtering something through who you know them to be. If it's someone you don't know very well, that's going to be their reputation and who, you know, you know them to be. And if it's somebody that is, is very close to you, if they're acting out of character, right? I mean, there's, there's sometimes where, you know, there might be something going on, some external stressor, maybe internal pain, physical or emotional, something might be going on. Like you mentioned hormones earlier, right? That fluctuates for men and women as we get older.

Yes.

And you might have a— yeah, and you may have a moment that is, that is uncharacteristic of that, you know, of that person. And so when you receive them treating you poorly, you have some choices to make, right? And assuming that positive intent is key number one. Again, I think this can be applied across all relationships. So I hope, I hope this is useful to someone, but you receive that and you say, okay, I know they're not meaning to hurt me. So the alternative must be that this is— and this is obviously not matching their character, right? Who I know them to be. So are you going to change how you— their character in your mind and who you know them to be, or just have this be an outlier, especially if it's the first time?

Right.

Well, obviously the rational answer is, is the second, right? So, so that's always really helped me when someone says something that's weird, uncharacteristic, and then Earlier, you also mentioned asking questions, right? Those are so critical when you're like, hey, yep. And we've mentioned this before on the show, when you said this, you made me feel this way. Is that what you meant me to feel? And that's a perfect moment there, because that person can be like, oh my gosh, no, of course not, you know, and that can really defuse some spicy situations.

You know, I think it's funny, I just finished rewatching Ted Lasso, right? And there's that scene in Ted Lasso where he's in the bar, and he's playing darts with Rupert, right? And he He's telling this whole story and the Walt Whitman quote of, you know, curious, not judgmental.

Hmm.

You know, he, if he had been, if Rupert had been curious, he would've asked Ted questions, right? And realized like, oh, Ted's really good at darts. Same kind of thing applies into a marriage of asking questions and being curious and not instantly like going to that, that judgmental or, yeah, not going to that, that spot immediately and instantaneously. Um, just assuming positive intent.

Yeah. And that goes right into our, our next section of communication that you and I talked about is like the second pillar of intentionality. And I talked about earlier discernment that, that is really critical to deciding whether or not something is worth bringing up. How do you kind of decide that? I know I have my own way of filtering it. And what do you think?

Yeah, I think for me, it's more like, you know, the first time that something happens or the first time that something frustrates me, I don't I don't bring it up. I give it to find out if it's going to become a pattern, or, you know, also like context clues, right? For me, usually my like irritation— irritations and frustrations with you tend to be— I'm noticing more and more with those hormonal swings. And so coming to realize like, this is it, this is a me problem. But also I think that whole— the whole concept of like second thought, almost even like second emotion too. You could use that phrase of like, okay, this was my initial gut reaction. Now what is the actual truth? And so it is, um, I also think it's back to that whole assuming positive intent, second thought. Those, those kinds of things are the ways in which that I can discern what's, what's a me thing versus a you thing.

Hmm.

And then I, I think that discernment then leads to, am I gonna bring it up? Am I not? And if I choose not to bring it up, I genuinely have to just let it go. This has become one of our rules of like, if you choose not to bring it up and you have to actually let it go, you're not sweeping it under the rug and you don't get to bring it back up in a discussion later. Right? You, you genuinely have to let it go. Go.

Um, yeah, no, I, I think that's, that's no surprise. Obviously that matches my thoughts exactly. You have to be the one. It's that difference between you. Is that a you issue or is that a me issue? And if it's me, then it's, I mean, quite frankly, I think, I think it makes it easier to let go. Right? Because you're like, well, hang on. This is, this is a perspective issue. This is the way that I'm viewing this. You also mentioned the The approach of looking for patterns, right? This is like one of my leadership rules as well for leaders in business is when your employee does something for the first time, that's not a pattern, right? And so the response of that, um, the response of that needs to be a little bit more measured than, uh, than when someone's doing something for the 5th or 6th time, right? So, right. Same thing applies here. And then, yeah, if, if it's something that you're gonna choose to let go, then you have to actually do so, right? Burying it or putting it under the rug is only gonna make it compound over time to the point where if this continues, then it's gonna be a blowup in the future, right? So at that point, it's just worth mentioning at the first, even the first time, just to get it out there. Something Jordan Peterson talks about is, is he says, have the damn fight. And he says, so often there's something that couples have to talk about that they've been avoiding. And it goes on for months, then it goes on for years. And then by that, there's so many things stacked on top of that, of it, that they're fighting with such fierce energy about multiple things that aren't the real thing. But with the intensity of all of those things, And it's just incredibly destructive because they have to now, because of so much time has passed, they have to spend a lot of effort to get down to the bottom. I mean, he talks about how that's really, really tough, especially the longer you go. So if you can sense, guys, if you can sense that this is something that is nagging at you and you haven't mentioned it, you need to find a way. You need to find a way to bring it up. And if it's the first time that you're bringing it up again, measured approach is very, very important, which is going to be more difficult the more you've been burying it. And that's why in the daily practices that you and I do, we do the, the 4G journal, right? We do the gratitude, goals, growth, and grace, right? And that last one being grace is super critical because that is somebody that you're forgiving or something that you're letting go, right? And so Yeah, again, super, super critical. That's, that's honestly one of our biggest rules of engagement. And that communication is really, really critical. In this very thread, we have another rule that I want you to give us your scoop on about being very careful who you talk about your spouse to. Can you tell us why that's important?

Yeah. So one of the other things, kind of the rules that came up in premarital counseling, was being very careful who you have conversations about your spouse with, who you gripe to, right?

Mm-hmm.

Um, who you let into the intimacy of your marriage is so very important. You know, there is literally like, I don't know, less than 2 people, maybe even only 1, who I will have conversations with regarding things that are maybe frustrating me, or if we're having a weird time, or whatever that looks like. Um, and you always want to pick people who are going to be what we like to call Team Negron, right? Or like Team Marriage. People who are always going to push you towards the marriage, not towards, oh, I want what's best just for me, or you do what makes you happy, or all the other stuff that comes up, right? No, no, no. This is about the marriage.

Mm-hmm.

We made a covenant vow before the Lord Together, right? So every decision that is made, every way in which we interact and respond to each other is through the filter of together. Now, I'm not saying that there aren't circumstances and there are times when things have gone so awry or that they're— I mean, you know, the whole abuse conversation is a completely different conversation.

Absolutely.

But if you're just having, you know, irritations and frustrations with each other, be so careful. Also, the other rule is it's never someone of the opposite sex.

Hmm.

You do not give any emotional door to open for something outside of your marriage to creep its way in. Like, it has to be someone of the same gender. Because unfortunately, what can then happen is this, you start to have emotions and things start to feel differently. And that person is attentive and caring and all of those things can happen. And so just don't even, don't even give it an opportunity to be a thing. Yeah. people who are team marriage, team Negron, team whatever, and seek advice. And seek advice from people who you know, um, yeah, are in your corner and who are going to give you that godly biblical wisdom.

And that know you both. I think that's— that's— yeah, the, the 1 to 2 people that I have, yep, know you extremely well, know your intentions. And so I think that's critical too, because when you have some clouded judgment in a difficult time, maybe some, some some, some wrong perspectives even is probably a good way to put that. Those people can, can help filter your perspective through the spouse's character and be like, no, that doesn't sound like Ashley. And then that, that reframe can happen super easily. Um, and they can hold up that mirror very, very easily, very, very well. And yeah, I totally agree. There's been, uh, there's been people from the opposite gender that have asked questions before. And it's just those things where it's like, Mm-hmm. Yeah, nope, it's great. Everything's great. Even if, even if it's a, it's a moment where I may be frustrated, it's like, no, it's awesome. Everything's awesome. And so I think that's super, super critical. And anyone that's ever trusted me inside of their marriage situations, that's been my same approach with them, right? It's like until, until that, that paperwork is filed, I'm going to be supportive of the union itself as an institution that you promised to each other. I mean, obviously this is, this is always with the caveat of like, right, you said those, those cases of abuse and those kinds of things, those are going to be a case-by-case scenario. But in general, right, those are the, those are the things that, that we, we do. The next thing we had talked about is the difference between listening and giving advice. I'll head this one up because this is one that I think my guys listen up.

Yeah.

There are going to be times where your lady wants to have you just listen. And as a general, again, super generalized system, men tend to be fixers and doers. And that's how, that's part of how we process, right? And so ladies, sometimes the processing that you do is you're verbal processors. I think we all are verbal processors to a certain degree, but there's, there's times where you do not, you are not in the space to be interested in my Solutions, in my ideas, and in my reframes. So I have to, especially the closer to the emotion or the situation, I have to use some discernment to try to understand, okay, is this the first time she's telling me about this? Is this very close to this scenario of whatever the occurrence is? And if those 2 answers are yes, I don't really have to ask you, hey, do you need me to listen or do you want me to help you fix it? I know what the answer is, right? I need to give you some space. To talk through the thing. But then other times the question isn't inappropriate where it's like, hey, what do you, what do you need from me right now? Can you tell us from, from your angle why this is so critical for, for guys to grasp?

Sometimes we just need a good vent. But I think the thing that is important in that is, you know, we've also kind of created this rule a little bit of like, you get to gripe about it one time. That's it. Otherwise, like, then you have to be the one to actually fix it. You don't get to gripe a second time if you're unwilling to do what is necessary to move things forward or to fix or to change whatever that, that looks like. And so that's, that's super important. Um, you know, and, and sometimes it's, it's honestly just asking the question, and you've asked me this before, do you want me to fix it or you just want me to listen? Because that also changes the way in which you're engaging in that entire conversation.

Mm-hmm.

And so don't wait till the end, you know, of that of that conversation to ask that question, you know. Usually at some point we're going to take a breath and you can go, hang on a second, this is, you know, what, how can I best help you in this?

Right, right, right.

And so that— but you have to actually like listen, not just hear me and hear the, you know, the fact that I'm talking to you. Don't just like let it Charlie Brown, you know, like the teacher, but actually listening to the things that are happening and the things that I'm frustrated about. Or, you know, sometimes I just need a good vent and I don't actually need you to fix anything, or I already took care of it, but it doesn't mean I'm still not frustrated about it, or whatever, you know. But yeah, let— yeah, definitely verbal processing. But asking that question can, can be huge.

Yeah, for sure.

And by the way, the thing of, oh, I don't know what I need, that's a perfectly valid, acceptable, acceptable answer, because sometimes I just Yeah.

And in that case, shut up and listen, because when you listen, you're going to gain that, that, that insight anyway. And if you need to be like, hey, I'm just going to bust out my phone notes real quick. I am listening to what you're saying. Or maybe paper is better in that scenario to make sure that they feel like you're listening. And then you can write some notes, maybe some, some feedback that you have later on when it's time to fix it. You're like, hey, I had these thoughts while you were talking, but I didn't want to interrupt you. And I wanted to give you the space to talk. And in that same regard, there's another funny rule that we talk about in communication that I think it's just more important to be aware of relationally, that, that as a, again, we're talking in broad generalities a lot here, but in a lot of conversations relationally, there is this kind of like push-pull rule that exists in that both people assume to a certain degree opposite sides of any spectrum. So my, my favorite, uh, Uh, example in this is you can test this in the middle of a— I don't want to say a fight. I'd say maybe like a financial discussion where a couple's talking about, you know, uh, saving versus spending. Now, generally people will say in a relationship there's a saver and there's a spender. Sure, I get that. But you can even get this to flip mid-conversation, right? And, and, and the reason why you could do this is just to illustrate this is a real thing. So when you're having a conversation and one, one person's like, hey, I've been thinking about, uh, you know, buying this thing, whatever it is, it's substantial enough to have a discussion around, right? The other one might be like, well, the other one might assume the conservative role in that conversation, just kind of devil's advocate posture, right? They're like, well, are we sure we need that? Um, the last, the last thing you bought like this, we haven't really used, right? Those kinds of things.

Right.

And so you can test this by, especially if you're in the conservative position, You can be like, well, I don't know. Yeah, sure. Let's, let's do it. Right. And sometimes you can see the other person will be like, well, I don't know. I'm actually not sure. And so it's just a fun thing to be aware of that sometimes that person is assuming that role just to help you work through something. Right. So if, if typically, if you marry someone that you admire and respect, that person is going to be someone that Uh, that's not just a yes person, not a yes woman or a yes man. Right. And so nobody, nobody is attracted naturally to a pushover, um, unless you got some serious therapy issues you need to work through. Right. And so in that comes the discussion where just awareness that there's this push-pull that just exists because that person is, is helping you test and refine your ideas. This is, uh, again, something that Jordan Peterson talks a lot about. And I think that's super important and actually leads into our final area and probably again, the most controversial part of what we're going to talk about today in gender roles and what does a helpmate actually look like, which I'll start out with. I think that's really critical because I think people who maybe aren't religious or kind of maybe left that world, they kind of view this as antiquated, maybe look at it as, you know, suppression of women and those kinds of things. But what I love about the definition of helpmate in the Bible, which again is seen with a lot of negativity and disdain because it doesn't sound super awesome, is that— and again, Jordan Peterson talks about this— that it's actually sparring partner. And so that person that's helping you refine your ideas is not a pushover and is a true sparring partner with your ideas, with your thoughts, challenging you, pushing you to be better. I, I think you're the last thing to a pushover in my mind. So talk to me a little bit about how that looks like for you in your mind.

Yeah, you know, the, the word like submission and all of those things kind of has this like dirty connotation because we've taken and we've, we've twisted what was actually intended to be this, this bond together moving forward. Like you said, that whole like sparring partner. No one wants to be with someone who just is a yes man, who just rolls over to every conversation, or who only does what the other person wants to do. That's not emotionally engaging. That's not challenging. We like a challenge. Like, we were created and intended for a challenge. And so in that, like, you can spar with one another, and that doesn't have to be like— you don't have to think of that as a bad thing. We, we don't fight a lot, but we have conversations and we push each other to be better, to be healthier, to keep growing, to keep pursuing what is best for us individually so that we are the best together, right? And so I think you can think about it of like, God made us equal, but we have different roles. And then also like different seasons, there's gonna be different roles and different things. Um, one of, one of the favorite ways I've heard it put is, um, Brené Brown talks about that marriage is always 100%, but how it's divided up looks different in different seasons and in different spaces, right?

Mm-hmm.

So sometimes depending on the season, it's like 50/50. We're both giving it, you know, we're, we're working well together. We're both doing all of our things. Sometimes we're in seasons of life where like, it may be that you're having to give the 80% and all I've got to bring to the table is this, is this is 20%. Sometimes it's 99/1.

Mm-hmm.

Whatever that, that looks like, there are gonna be different seasons and reasons for that to shift. But it's always that 100% is being put into the marriage between the two of you.

Yeah.

And having those conversations and acknowledging that, you know, everybody's got different roles and different strengths. And so, you know, for us, there's, there's certain times that we laugh about, there's certain things that like, I come to you and ask questions or want your input because I don't want to freight train you. But at the end of the day, like, hey, would it just be better if I— it didn't matter? I'm like, yeah, actually it would be. You're like, okay, great. Like, take it and run, right? And so you have to lean into those, into those strengths and into those different things. You know, God made us all different, unique individuals. And so lean into those things. It doesn't have to be a dirty word or something that you see as like being a prison or a chain or whatever that it is you want to call it. There's actually great freedom and even like a sense of intimacy that comes from actual true biblical submission.

And that's equal submission, right? Let's be super clear about that.

Yes.

Like, yeah, absolutely. The passage in Ephesians that calls women to submit, right after that, it calls the husbands to give up themselves like Christ gave himself up for the church. That doesn't sound too domineering if you ask me on that. So you said equal value. I want to highlight that again, really critically, equal value, not different, right? In that marriage. And then also potentially sometimes different roles and different roles for different marriages, right? Like, for example, ours is not stereotypical in a lot of ways, right? Like I, on the color code, I'm a blue, purist blue. You're a purist red, right? You're a Type A. I'm, I have, I'm much more emotional, much more emotive, high empathy, right? I always joke that I married someone who has low emotions because I have way too much. I have more than enough for two people, and by that, that that those some of those qualities are associated more with the stereotypical feminine characteristics, whereas the Type A again they go more masculine, right? Take charge those kinds of things. And so I think it's super important to know what your personalities are. And like you said earlier, you said strengths and weaknesses, right? Like how, you know, they say opposites attract. That's, that's again a general rule that applies because you're attracted to someone that can help you in your weakness, right? Some, some, something that you're not good at, then, then your helpmate on both sides, man and women, can help you through those things. And I think that's, that's super, super critical. We really can't— I mean, we could talk for an hour just on that. Um, and that leads into the next section. If you're somebody of faith, you know, we went to a Christian college, right? And when we got married, so many of your girlfriends would be like, he is not helping around the house. Like, he's not— he— all he's doing is playing video games. And they were expressing frustration, right? And early on in their marriage, when the young boy was not taking charge, was not leading the family. And I'll say me personally, when I was a more unhealthy version of myself, uh, when we got married, I was like, man, I'm married to a Type A. She's gonna basically be the executive of my life. She's gonna take charge, make all the decisions, and I can just be like, what's up, dude? Yeah, I'll do whatever. Just, uh, I'm, I'm a people pleaser by, by nature. And so I'd be like, yeah, sure, whatever you wanna do, hon. Yeah, that pushover, right?

Yeah.

The not engaging for you, not stimulating at all. And I, I learned early on, thankfully, That just because the personality type that you had was a take-charge kind of person, that you still wanted me to lead the family spiritually. And that is a lesson I remember very distinctly learning, that it was my responsibility to do that. And it was one that I had early on abdicated. And then that was not something that I could be proud of and that I needed to pick that mantle up and do that. What can you tell women out there? What advice did you give those newlyweds? What advice can you give someone? Maybe they have been married just a few short time, but also some that have been married a long time, and they're married to man boys that don't take responsibility and don't lead in the ways that they should.

I think that one of the biggest things for us was we found, found other couples who were further along in the journey of marriage than what we were, and we let them invest We let them help guide us and push us. You know, you had older men who'd been married for longer periods of time come alongside you and help push you to that role. And so finding people that you can learn from who have been and walked the road that you're currently in. As a person of faith, one of the things that I can say too is like, spend time praying for your husband. Paul talks about the fact that, um, you know, oh, the, the prayers of a wife can change her husband.

Hmm.

Give, give that to the Lord. God gave us that desire deep within our heart. And so, um, you know, give, give that to the Lord, ask him for that. And then also like, um, you know, some of it is you may have to lead by example for a, for a season of time as well. Like let him see. you in the word. Let him see you being intentional and diving into that. Um, some, you know, sometimes there's a season and a reason to lead by example. And so, you know, those are the, those are kind of the 3 things that come to mind for pieces of advice around that. Yeah.

Well, and I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna back you up on that because I, I think I've always told you early on that what spurred me to actually grow spiritually wasn't you nagging me to do so. You know, there's some proverbs and this is a sensitive thing for you in, in that you're always very intentional not to be a nag, right? Because Proverbs talks specifically, like 3 times about how men would rather be in the top corner of the roof outside while it's raining than be in the house with his nagging wife in the attic that's leaky and cold. You know, multiple illustrations that are kind of funny, but kind of true, right? So I've always appreciated that about you, you leading by example, right? And so you were, you were leading spiritually for For a time, right? And I just remember at some point seeing that, and it convicted me, right? Because you were setting that example. And I'm sure your prayers and all those things had an effect too. I just don't have a— I don't have a way to be aware of that. And so I remember just, just being— this is probably the way I could distill it most— of the way this woman is living out Ephesians in your marriage is superior to how you are. Mm-hmm. And so you need to take responsibility and match. You know, at that point, like you were saying earlier, you were doing— it was like 80/20. You were doing 80 and I was doing 20. And I had to realize, oh wow, she's getting the short end of the stick here. And I think that's why Jordan Peterson's movement has been so powerful for young men, right? Because he's telling them, clean your room, be responsible, be upstanding gentlemen of society, right? Not to mistreat women, But to cherish them and lead them well. And that started with you actually leading me well and setting that example. I really do. I do really do. And that's something that you got from your mom that I've always told you I greatly respect. And so by you being better than me, you made me want to be better and wake up and be that way. And that, I mean, honestly, that leads up to, again, we could talk about this for hours and hours, For a long time. But that leads into where, what we said was, was where it needs to wrap up. And what this show is all about, about being the best version of yourself is what's best for your marriage and family. Because you're gonna be the best husband, the best wife, the best mother, the best father, and the best person to be in a relationship with, the best boss. If you're the best version of you, that's where it's critical. And so those daily steps, Of what is the, what is the one thing that if you did today would make you a better person, then start doing that, start doing that daily, because that's going to start changing you and is going to start changing your marriage.

I mean, you know, it's, it's what you talked about, like daily anything changes everything. So what is one little thing that you can do today to show your spouse that you see them, that you've thought about them, that you're intentionally Hmm. And sometimes, you know, honestly, depending on like where you're at, the season that your marriage is in, sometimes it may feel a little bit like just going through the motions, but eventually it becomes the new norm. And you talk about how long it takes to develop a habit and a pattern. The same thing applies to these little things within your marriage, developing a habit or a pattern. You know, if you're a forgetful person, set an alarm like at the same time every day that I'm gonna text you something that I love about you, or I'm gonna find a silly meme, or it's just, it's those little daily things that will push you together. Um, and then, yeah, like you said, just always becoming the best version of yourself. Um, it's really hard to love someone else well when you're a, when you're a mess yourself. And so work on those things.

Mm-hmm.

Pursue becoming healthy and holy as well. So that you can love other people, specifically your spouse, well.

Hmm. I totally agree. Well, I think that's, I think that's probably a wrap. I don't, I can't think of anything else. Again, we could talk about this forever, but I think that's, that's some awesome bite-sized things that, that brings it all together in that idea of intentionality and, and pursuing yourself being better in whatever way, whether that's physical, Physical, mental, emotional improvements in health. And as you pursue that, your relationships will improve. And arguably the most significant ones will yield the best result and benefit the most, right? Because those are the relationships that you have the closest proximity to. So that's going to be your spouse, then your children. And I mean, probably the people at work. So your employees, your colleagues, you know, your boss, anyone that you interact with, with a significant amount of time is just going to reap the benefits of that growth, right? All right. Well, thanks for listening to the Optimizing Beyond podcast. Remember, growth happens when you take action. So subscribe and share this with a friend. And most importantly, put what you learned into practice, because as we know, daily anything changes everything.