Overcoming Depression: Staying the Course Through Failure and Faith | Ft Michael Cirillo

Welcome to the Optimizing Beyond podcast. I'm Josh Negron, and this show is all about sharing lessons, ideas, and strategies that sharpen your thinking, strengthen your habits, and push you to grow beyond comfort zones. Let's dive in. All right, today we are joined by Michael Cirillo, the host of the Dealer Playbook podcast and CEO of FlexDealer. Michael, welcome to the show today.

Hey, buddy. It's always good to share time with you.

Very much so. Very much so. I appreciate you being on the show. We talk about everything optimizing from tech, health, mental health, and all those things. First of all, your story is from phone books to digital automotive marketing. Can you walk us through that journey?

Oh, man. I mean, 1982, my dad starts a phone book company out of complete desperation. Actually, if you rewind a little bit before that, my dad started in Vancouver, Canada, the first credit card style VIP buying group discount card and had no experience to do something like this. It was just an idea. And he ended up building that company Basically, I mean, these are all over the place now. You get points on your credit card, it's all built in. But back then, it was a really novel idea to have almost like a credit card style discount card that you could go into any participating retailer any time of the year and qualify for exclusive savings. He grew that company and it went public.

Wow.

And then lost everything. And I'll spare you, like Steve Martin says, I'll spare you the details there. But he lost everything and went into desperation mode, had 3 daughters, a young wife. I'm on the way, I think, at this point. And he's depressed and hopeless and doesn't know what to do. And the Day, really, and this is going to sound grim for a minute, but the day he was convinced he needed to go blow his brains out, he was leaving the house after being bedridden for 6 months, having lost everything, owing investors back then half a million dollars in money that he had lost of theirs and all that kind of stuff. He recalls my mom holding my older sister and the 2 other sisters standing at the top of the stairs and just saying, No matter what, we love you. And that caused him to, instead of going out and doing what he thought he needed to do, it caused him a lot of reflection, soul-searching, if you will. And he came back. And at some point in that journey, he came back and he said, there's no competition to the Yellow Pages. Why would that even be a thought? He had no experience publishing. No experience in phone books, like no experience competing against one of the largest companies in the country, the Yellow Pages. But he said there's no competition in the Yellow Pages, so he empties his bank account at a pawn shop, buys a typewriter, and at night, all night, is copying phone numbers by hand, manually, from the Yellow Pages into a manuscript of what will become his phone book. Goes out and sells the advertising all alone. has this idea in that process, and I think this might feed into a little bit of the conversation today because it's definitely something that I've taken. In the process of that movement, each little iteration gives him clarity of what to do next. Wait, the Yellow Pages is for all of Vancouver. That's a phone book the size of a massive textbook. What if we did suburb, community-based phone books so they're smaller and they're more achievable?

Hmm.

And then that leads to him selling this phone book. It comes out, it gets published. He figures all that stuff out. And he recalls getting a phone call from the Chamber of Commerce for the community that he launched this phone book, upset. And he's like, oh my gosh, what did I do wrong? And they're basically saying, do you know how many companies in our area are so mad that you did not approach them to advertise in your phone book?

Wow.

And that started what became a very lucrative career and family business publishing phone books. We were the first phone book company to introduce full addresses and, in Canada, postal codes or zip codes. We were the first ones to introduce all-color advertising. So the Yellow Pages weren't just yellow anymore. Full color. We were the first ones to introduce restaurant menus and things that just outside of the box things that were really challenging the norm. And it started from there. And the reason I share all of that, I think it's important to have that context because what came from an absolutely grim, dire circumstance laid a very powerful concrete foundation. 4 lessons that I've learned, that I've taken and built from in my career and in my life in general, observing my parents. And I'll include both of them because my mom worked in the business. We all worked in the business, but as business partners, watching her be mom and technically stay-at-home mom managing the household, but also laboring next to him in the business. And then us, I mean, 10 years old for Michael Cirillo was, yeah, hang out with your friends. And also here's all the chores. And also we need you to proofread these phone numbers and names and addresses in a phone book because that has to be done first.

Hmm.

Because this is how we live and you're a part of it. And so, that was the norm. It was everybody kind of pulls their weight. Now, in context and being a dad myself now and operating businesses, I know that everyone pulls their weight really means dad's pulling most of the weight, but doing an incredible job at masking that and making the kids think they're really heaving and hoeing. But I'm grateful for that because that lays the foundation for what comes next. In 1993, my dad calls us into his office and he says, watch this. And he connects to the internet. Home internet's new in Canada in '93. You connect to the satellites. Somebody can't be on the phone at the same time or else it'll ruin the connection. And he says, watch this. And he loads the Encyclopedia Britannica website. It was one of, I don't know, 5, 10 websites at the time that you could access. And we were all gathered around his desk in his office, and he turns around like Dr. Claw from Inspector Gadget, turns his chair around and looks at us. And I'll never forget it. He said, this is going to kill the encyclopedia salesperson. And what he was really saying is, here is something that is going to not interrupt, but disrupt. And there's a big difference between those 2 concepts. There is, yeah. This is going to disrupt the way that things currently happen. And he was so right. He saw it as, oh gosh, the ability to access information here means that I no longer have to have a vacuum salesperson come to my door, an ointment salesperson, encyclopedia salesperson, or whatever else. I mean, really to that degree, do we even need door-to-door roofers and door-to-door— who knows? You could argue it either way. But what he saw was, I currently am a phone book publisher. And right around the corner, not today, but right around the corner will be a time where no one will ever need to look in a phone book ever again. It will all be in that computer. And so it wasn't but 5 years before he sold the phone book company, which ended up being franchised almost right across Canada. We had franchises in communities in majority of the Canadian provinces. And And that led to now teenage Michael in the family business where my dad's like, well, what are we going to do next? He knew publishing, he followed demand, and he was like, there's no competition to AutoTrader.

Hmm.

This is a thing with my dad. He's like, wait, there's no competitor to that? How is that even possible? And so he started a little automotive magazine, just like what you'd pick up at a gas station or something like that.

Yeah.

And I remember this very clearly. He's like, okay, Michael, suit up, white shirt, tie, put on your Sunday suit. You're going to drive 2 hours in that direction. I'm going to drive 2 hours in that direction. We're going to visit every dealership on the way back to home. P.S., if you don't sell something, we starve. And I'm like, Let's see, I'm 16, 17.

Yeah. Okay. Right?

Popping into a little Kia Rio and 5-speed Kia Rio stick shift and cruising and feeling absolutely terrified because I've never sold anything before. And at this point, we didn't have a mockup of the magazine. There was no prototype. There were no graphic designs that I could even show somebody.

And I did.

I had a zip-up pleather binder with order sheets in it. Did I sell anything that day? No. Did we starve? Also no. Were things tight? Very much so. And I hated him for that in that moment. And today, 43-year-old Michael looks back and I'm like, That is one of the best things he could have done for me to help me understand what it actually looks like and what it takes. Patrick Bet-David posted a picture a little while ago and it was him and his sons. They were sitting, it might've been at the Charlie Kirk Memorial. They're sitting there, they're in their suits looking sharp. And the caption really was, bring your children into your world. Show them your world. And I realize now that's exactly what my dad was doing for me. He's like, you're going to see my world. You're going to see what this takes, what it takes to do something. The most powerful thing that came from that is he taught me how to sell and tell stories and paint pictures with my words, which is so powerful even today when we have an abundance of I can show you a mockup and I can show you what it'll look like, and here's the whole prototype. And we kind of get stuck in this perfection mindset.

Hmm.

Even to this day in our companies, you have to think about this. I've never had a slide deck. I've never had a fancy presentation. I've never shown behind the scenes, oh, hey, let me show you the results. People are buying into the vision that I'm setting for them with my words because it has nothing to do with me. It has everything to do with them and the transformation that they can experience. And some people might wonder, well, what's the proof then? Where are your receipts? The receipts are that I work in a very lucrative and a very Shark Tank-esque industry where people will rip you apart if you do not get results, and they will do it publicly.

Yeah.

And they will talk to their peer groups and they will talk to whatever. That becomes the proof point to the thesis because I don't have enough money, Josh, to pay people off to not say bad things about me. And so either they are all fools or they are all lazy or it works. And there's kind of no middle ground there.

Right.

When it doesn't work, they cancel. When it does work, they stay forever. And for a company that we have where Everything's month to month and we don't handcuff our partners into long-term contracts. They're the ones that are choosing to stay. And we believe that our actions and our behavior and our partnership and how we meet them should be a factor into them wanting to stay a partner of ours. I learned all of that from what I thought as a 16 or 17-year-old was the worst experience of my life. And everybody has to pass through that refiner's fire, so to speak, if they want the results and the benefits that can come down the road.

So without those reps, you wouldn't have seen what you enjoy today.

Without the reps, the tears, the hopelessness feeling sometimes, the— a lot of people, I think, get it backwards. They're like, well, I'm going to go my entire life trying to avoid all of those feelings, those emotions, those heartaches. Those are the things that give you ground to then think about solutions, to then think about creativity and innovation. There's no innovation without failure and problem and hardship.

That's right.

It's those things that actually push us to innovate and be creative and come up with solutions. What are you looking for solutions for if there's no problem?

Hmm. So true. So how do you deal with, you know, you've, you've practiced these things, how do you deal with clients that, you know, you're not, you mentioned you're not handcuffing your clients, but there are going to be clients that don't have the same maturity that you do in the relationship. So the common play is to, if you're not happy with a vendor or a marketer, to grow in your displeasure until you finally Just cancel without saying anything. So how do you handle that lack of opportunity for you to change, optimize, and adapt to what your consumer, what your customer needs?

The first step is that you have to get canceled, which stinks. I have a love-hate relationship with failure. I hate how it feels in the moment that it's happening, but I I would be remiss if I didn't admit that the life I enjoy today is on the back of so much failure. So the first step there is you have to get canceled and you have to experience what that feels like. And you have— what I love, and this kind of feeds into the larger narrative, I think, of the question you're asking, which is you have to also respect that everyone has their agency to choose. And so inherent in that also means that I have my agency to choose how I will respond to that circumstance? Will I be the one who says, oh my gosh, what is going on? Everything's falling apart. What have I done? What could I have done better? Or same question, change in tone. What could I have done better?

Hmm.

So that I can do it for the next one and change it. And so the partnerships we have today, are they all perfect? No, they're not. That's part of the messiness of life and dealing with sending sentient beings' agency to choose, but we can control the controllables. We can meet regularly as a team. We can talk about vision and mission and culture and core values. We can train on those things. We can debrief after calls. We can, as leaders, ask for regular updates and status reports. Hey, how is ABC partner doing?

Yeah.

Where would you rate them? Yellow? Are they red? Are they green? If they're green, why are they green? See, most people don't ask the why question in the good times. They only wait for the bad times. If they're yellow, why are they yellow? If they're red, why are they red? And now, because we're talking facts, not emotions, we're separating the two, then let's meet those facts with actions. We've had experiences of failure even with partners. And what we've found is that when we meet the failure And if you're with action and accountability and ownership, then what you're doing is you're giving another person's agency to choose grace over anger. It actually deepens the relationship even further because what do we all want? We all want someone who's willing to take ownership, who's willing to clean up their mess, make it right. We all actually, I think, desire more people like that in our circles of—

Yes.

What we don't want, what we want less of is people that pretend they're perfect, who are so shallow on the inside they can't ever take ownership or accountability for anything. And so you have to know, I mean, for those that are maybe just getting started, maybe somebody that's listening just got their first cancellation and they're heartbroken over it because now it means money's a little more tight or Or whatever it is, you have to think, well, if you're just getting started, your number one objective is to cover your basic physiological needs. That's why it hurts so much because now you're feeling the wolf on your doorstep. However, you also have the ability to choose to never get comfortable.

Hmm.

And if you are never comfortable, then you are constantly striving. And if you're constantly striving, then your pipeline should be more full than it is. One of the biggest mistakes we had in our early days of building Flex is that we would get a cancellation, but we had nobody in the hopper to replace that revenue with. And that's where the pain comes from. So Josh, I made it my mission. I was so unsatisfied with that feeling. And I was unsatisfied with my— I had to be accountable for myself for choosing mediocrity, that I made it my mission to have so many opportunities that somebody canceling would be a relief.

So you find the people you really, really want to work with.

Yeah. I mean, you know this. I really don't have a desire to be one of these companies in the automotive industry that has 4,000 customers. That sounds like a, whoa, a nightmare. Not because of the customers, not because there aren't great people, but it's the logistics, the hiring that you have to— does anybody— we wear this as a badge of honor, I think, too much in business. We have 2,700 employees in 13 countries. Cool. What I just heard is you have no life.

Mm-hmm.

And if that's your decision, mazel tov. But that's what's cool about life is when you stop comparing against somebody else's definition of success and just take more time to figure out what your definition of success is, then life is enjoyable. You're living it on your terms. There is no better feeling than knowing you are living the path that you've chosen. And so you have to get the cancellation. You have to take inventory on your attitude. Am I a victim or am I a victor? You have to then implement some of those actions. You have to be willing to ask people what you could have done better. You have to be willing to have meaningful, sometimes tough conversations with yourself and with your team because you are, like I said, stripping the emotion out and marrying facts to action. This happened. What's the appropriate response? The last thing I'll say to that point that's on my mind is the word response is very strategic and very intentional. Most people react.

That's right.

And the tough thing about a reaction for me is it's instinctual. If we were in the same room and I kicked you in the shin, your reaction would be instinctual. You'd go, ah. A response is so much more intentional. It's, wait, let me internalize the way that felt. Let me think through my next action and then act. So anybody that's thinking about this, and maybe they're in a situation like this or they're experiencing hardship, my plea is stop reacting.

Hmm.

Start practicing a response plan. And by the way, what's so cool about a response plan, and maybe we'll get into this, is you can plan that in advance. Like you can say, if I experience situation A, I will respond in this way before it even happens. You can anticipate for it. Circumstance B happens, I will respond in this way, and so on and so forth. Just think of the impact, not just in business.

Yeah.

In life. If my teenager crashes the car, I will respond in this way. If they talk back to their mother, I will respond in this way. We see it all the time on social media, the kids that probably need a little more structure at home who film the reaction of a parent to one of the things that they do. And we love watching those videos because we're like, some of us are like, right on, Dad, you whooped his butt, or whatever it is. Imagine what that same video would look like if Dad had a measured response, premeditated to the scenarios that we face in life, because life is messy and business is messy and we're messy. And so reaction versus response, that's how I deal with the unexpected, I guess.

Well, I mean, that plays right into the mental health conversation that we talk a lot about here. And so, I mean, obviously, you've been very open with your mental health journey over the years publicly. And so how, how have you seen that things like that shift over time, as far as, you know, we've discussed the willingness to be uncomfortable and hold yourself against that edge? And then also, you know, the ability to respond versus react? How's that shifted for you in your early days versus now?

Well, that's a great question. And I would say when I was burdened with depression, when it was my thing, and suicidal thoughts and hopelessness and derealization, that feeling of, I know I'm here, but I'm not here, and I hate it. It's just the worst feeling ever. I'll admit there was not even A reaction. There was a paralysis. And yeah, I guess scientifically you could argue that that is in and of itself a reaction, right? Paralysis. But it was like, no hope. Life sucks. People suck. I suck. I remember not knowing what was wrong with me. That became the downward spiral. What is happening to me? Why am I so angry? Why am I so tired? Why don't I want to do anything? I have zero desire or ambition to do anything. What is happening? And then you go, what did I do wrong? And then you go, I was raised in a great home with a good family. Now I'm feeling guilty for feeling guilty.

So it must be me.

What's— yeah. What is going on? And also marry that with, I'm broke and life sucks. And is it really? I remember I would call my parents and I'd be like, when you were 25, did you ever experience this kind of feeling? And they'd be like, no. And I'm like, well, I'm a screw-up. Because I was trying to find my footing and it was like there was no footing to be had. And I felt like I was being deceived, like I was walking onto a body of water that looked so still it was a solid, but every time I'd step in, I would just sink to the bottom. It deceived me. Everything was so deceiving. And I was in that state for probably 7 years before Before, I was like, either life is really this crappy and I'm out of here, or something's not right and I'm not seeing it right. I remember going to the doctor. They have this assessment that they ask you a bunch of questions and him being like, you're suicidal. We need to get you help. We need to get you help. I went through all of the feelings that I think a lot of people may experience, which is ashamed. Me? Talk to a psychiatrist? Ew. Really? No. Right? Stigma, stigma, negative stigma, right?

Yes.

Looming over, oh, you need to go talk to a shrink. I dealt with that. My now wife, then fiancée, Kara, was a great support in this because she never argued with me about, what's wrong with you? She never— I'm really blessed that that she's in my life because she was just like— this is an awful analogy, but sometimes we win with our analogies and sometimes we lose. This is probably going to lose, but the best thing I can think of is support dogs when they know their owner's about to have a seizure. So they kind of stand up and they—

Okay.

It's a signal and they're like, sit down. And then the dog Just lays on them and comforts them. Guys, no, I'm not calling my wife a dog. Okay? But in that similar concept, she was the constant that never held it over me, but was like, he's about to have an episode and I'm just going to not say anything and I'm just going to be with him and I'm just going to rest on him, so to speak. And that's all I'm going to do. And that was a tremendous support to me. So when I'm lamenting about going to this psychiatrist, who's, by the way, his office was a disaster, books all over the place, papers hanging off of bookshelves, barely any place to sit, just smelt weird. I remember my first session and I was like, I'm going to burn this place. I'm gonna burn this office down. That was so pointless, Kara. All he did was listen to me complain. That is— I don't feel like that's helpful at all, right? And she'd be like, I really think you should keep going back though. Like, just do what the— just do what the doctor asked.

Hmm.

Fine, but I'm not gonna be happy about it. And she's like, well, you're not— you're not happy about anything, so what difference does it— so what does it make? And you go back and you go back and you go back and you realize actually there's a method to the madness here because he's actually teaching you how to respond and not react. His office is a mess because he wants to see what you're going to do about it if you're going to take him seriously. He's like, it's uncomfortable because what difference does it make? You're here because you're uncomfortable. So how are you going to respond to that? Maybe it's helping me identify in some small way. I don't know the psychology of it, but— Maybe in some small way, he's actually helping me identify that I do have standards and I do have a threshold with which I actually won't go below and that I will hold myself accountable to, so on and so forth. And I don't really know when the shift happened, man, but you start realizing, I'm starting to feel a little bit better. Waited for his openings to just introduce small concepts, so easy to achieve, like Hey, when's the last time you went for a walk?

Never.

Go for a walk, but just 5 minutes. Just go for a 5-minute walk, but don't look at your feet while you walk. Look as far into the distance as you can while you're walking.

Hmm. Okay.

And you do it and you're like, that was kind of nice. And it's the little things. What I've learned now, what I've taken from all of that is, and this is doctrinal too, I mean, we see it all over the Bible, small, simple, forward-moving.

Mm-hmm.

Calm, right? Peace. Collect your mind, gather your faculties, take small steps. What is unnatural is what our carnal nature wants, which is completion right now, achievement right now. That is so against the truths of the universe that hold the ever-expanding universe in their order. And if we exist in that universe, then we must also be governed by the laws of that universe, which rewards Calculated, small progress continually over time, never completion or achievement instantly.

Hmm.

And I learned that through this process of finding my health and changing my mind. The other reason why any of this works— worked and why it stuck is because my distaste for living in this state for as long as I had, had exceeded a threshold for me in which I was willing now to do whatever it took. I was so disgusted feeling this way that I was willing to take the action to discover whether or not life really was this bad or if it could change.

Hmm.

And I think for a lot of people, they have to understand that change happens, the path to transformation happens when you become so unhappy With your current state, you have to want it more than you want to breathe. You have to want the transformation more than something else, which is really the law of sacrifice. You have to be willing to make room for the new that you want to experience. Inherently, to make room, you have to let go of or release something else. I was so ready. I was so tired. I was so tired of being sick and tired that it made way for the desire to experiment and see if life could be better.

Now, were you still— I'm curious, were you still building, producing, contributing to the things that you were growing in this time, in these 7 years?

Yeah. I was thinking about this recently, what I'm about to share with you, and actually how I'm so grateful for it. Depressed, building every second— let me see, every first and third week were production weeks for the magazine that we were producing, the competition to AutoTrader. I was going to school full-time. Every second and fourth week, I was designing websites and software infrastructure for another software product we have today. And also in that 2nd and 4th week while I'm designing websites and building marketing plans and doing all these sorts of things as we're transitioning into the digital sphere more with our client partners, I'd also have to deliver the magazines that got published in weeks 1 and 3 to all over Vancouver, out into the suburbs. I was driving a Saturn SC2 coupe.

Yeah.

Fire engine red, but not fire engine metal, very much Mattel fire engine plastic. And I would load that thing up with 50,000 magazines. And my evenings after all of that, after full-time school, after designing sites, after designing the magazine and selling advertising and doing all those things, was delivering those books all over the greater Vancouver area. And it was a dumpster fire. season, dude. It was shovel as much crap into your mouth as you possibly can and try and convince yourself that it's chocolate. It was rough. I'm not even going to sugarcoat it. It was rough. However, this kind of goes back to the beginning. I look back now, I wouldn't change any of it for the world.

Mm-hmm.

I wouldn't change any of it for anything. It taught me that even in what I would agree in myself was my darkest period, that I was actually stronger than I was giving myself credit for, that I was actually more resilient than I thought, that I was actually more willing than I thought. And I look back now and I'm like, I wouldn't have anything I have accomplished today if I didn't learn that of myself.

Yeah.

And I didn't learn it right away. I learned it over time, looking back, and I wouldn't change any of it. So for people that are eating crap right now, embrace it. It is refining you. It is strengthening you. It is teaching you so much about who you really are. You are not your name. You are not your circumstances. You are a divinely created entity endowed with power, endowed with faculties, endowed with thoughts and impressions and feelings. You are an incredible identity.

Mm-hmm.

And divinely created. I really believe it. And that is why when I look back, I see that version of me through a much more empathetic lens. That powers so much of how I choose to live my life now. That period of time, I didn't see it in the moment, Josh, but today has become one of my greatest strengths.

Hmm.

And it factors itself into pretty much everything. You and I are buddies. You and I know full well that I can be the goofiest dude and also I can lock in and that being a goof and locking in are not mutually exclusive.

Right.

What do most people do though? They're like, I'm a goof, and they assume that as their identity and then they assume the behavior full-time that goes with being goofy and then their cohort labels them as goofy and never takes them seriously. And then they train themselves to say, well, then I'm just not good enough to have what they have or to do what that guy does or look at my— Hey, you didn't have to do any of that. You can be goofy and not be a goof. You can be locked in and not be uptight.

Hmm.

But the reason I'm that way has come from over time being like, you know what? So many people are hard on themselves. So many people are struggling with something. I feel like heaven blessed me with comedic timing and an interest in it. And so it's a tool that I use often to provide relief if I can.

Hmm.

It's why I choose to crack jokes sometimes in what the world would say is the wrong time. But for me, it's a pattern interrupt. Pattern interrupt. Yeah. It's like when we edit videos and we do a jump cut to re-get your interest. And I do it because— and it's funny what happens. Most people won't admit it, and I'm not tooting a horn here or boasting, just simply to demonstrate this point. Most of the time afterwards, the endearing comments that I'll get, hey man, I love the way you presented that. And I I related to it. And that was such a funny story and it brought me joy. And my son heard it and they loved that. And now you got— that created an opportunity for me and my child to connect and have an interesting conversation with each other. And I can't remember the last time we did that.

Hmm.

I'm like, none of it, I really believe none of it would happen today if I didn't go through that period of time in my life, if I didn't go through that experience. I firmly believe, dude, that weaknesses can become strengths.

Hmm. Strength through vulnerability.

Hmm. Yeah, 100%.

You mentioned your wife's support through this journey across some years, right? And so the first thought I had is, has she ever shared with you how she was able to keep your suffering separate from, separate from her. In other words, some— sometimes partners can internalize the suffering of their partner, especially when their partner's like, my life is horrible, and depression really clouds those things. And so it's difficult for them to not take those things personally, like they— that I hate our life together.

Yeah, it's funny, just yesterday at time of recording, my wife and I were sharing some time together, we were chatting, and we were talking about Kind of an adjacent topic to this. It had to do with mental health and somebody we know that's struggling and it is having an impact on their marriage. And Kara commented, well, it's almost like, were you really even thinking of me while you were going through that? Here's the fascinating part of it. If she asked me that question while I was going through it, my I would've had a reaction and it probably would've been like, oh, so now you're going to make this all about you? 20 years together, 17 years married later, me who doesn't feel that way, my response was, you might've been the only thought that kept me alive. So it's an interesting, fascinating question you're posing here because it depends on where you are at in your health journey. And it goes a little bit deeper than that. It kind of ties into— actually, it doesn't kind of tie into it, it really ties into faith, which is realizing that our Father in Heaven is never holding me to my lowest. He only sees us in our fullest potential.

Hmm.

That's why he provided us a Savior. If he hated us, he would have abandoned us a long time ago. He would have cracked the joke that sometimes parents crack, like, we'll try again and, you know, write this one off. No, he said, He said, because of your divine potential, because you are my creation, and because I understand the effects of the world in its fallen state, I will provide a Savior for you who will atone for you and redeem you, who is infinitely perfect. Think about that for a minute. We know the command, be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect. We also know that perfection is not achievable in this mortal state. But what's interesting about it, and I'm going to tie it back to Kara, is, but we have the opportunity, Josh, to enter into a covenantal relationship with someone who is infinitely perfect. Yeah. How do I tie that back to Kara? Kara's always been great with her money. Always. When we got married, I mean, savings, all the things that college-age students usually don't have. I was the complete contrast to that. I was like, eat food or buy a guitar.

Yeah.

Right?

You and I are very similar in that.

Yeah. Bought a guitar, nice little Les Paul, didn't eat, bad with my money. I remember once, I needed a laptop for school and I went to Best Buy, got a Best Buy card, felt so excited about this credit. You mean I don't have to pay right away?

Cool, man.

And I bought a bunch of DVDs, like maybe $100, $120 worth of DVDs, movies that I enjoyed. And they're like, you want the 12 months no interest plan? I'm like, heck yeah. 12 months, no payments, no interest. Amazing. A couple months later, I bought a laptop for school. And the laptop, I mean, back then, gosh, it was like a Compaq, whatever that brand was, Compaq, whatever. It weighed 450 pounds. And I bought that on my Best Buy card. I should have read the fine print. I should have realized that I did not buy the Best Buy card on a 12-month, no interest, no payments plan. I bought it on a 6-month, no interest, no payments plan.

Mm-hmm.

And if any of the plans on your card are voided for not following the terms and conditions, then your entire card balance is now due this instant with a 29.79% interest rate. And a year, maybe almost 18 months goes by and I get a call from a collector.

Hmm.

What would've only been like maybe $1,000 or $1,500, because laptops back then were really, really expensive, was a $6,000 collection bill.

Whoa.

And I— bro, you don't believe in the resurrection? I do, because my ghost left my body and then reentered it sometime the next day. Where am I going with this? I dealt with that all leading up to getting married. I went through the, I can only make a minimum payment of $14, and watching the hole get deeper and deeper and deeper.

Mm-hmm.

And then Kara and I get married. Okay, so listen with the physical and the spiritual ears. I enter into a relationship with someone who was infinitely perfect. Good credit, good habits, good finances. And guess what? All of a sudden, in a faster period of time than I could have ever imagined, the debt was paid.

Hmm.

And almost instantly after we got married, banks were offering me credit cards again and offering me financial options again, where they had all written me off. How often do we write ourselves off? I'm not good enough. I can't. It will never. Not realizing we have the opportunity to enter into a relationship with somebody who is infinitely perfect, who not only not will help us pay the debt, has already paid the debt. Imagine what would happen to any of us who start reframing our thoughts, small steps upon small steps, to say, wait, He's got me. He paid the price for what I'm experiencing right now. I don't have to hold myself to this low when he is holding himself to my high.

Hmm.

You know, that sort of a thing. And, and so there was so much grace on Kara's part. And it's probably because in those moments she was, she was realizing that, that, you know, our faith could help us through. Would it feel like it every day? No.

Mm-hmm.

But if you look at the trend line, it sustained us. It sustained her. It's what allowed her to continue and to not take it personally and to say, his personal challenge and his personal trial of faith is not also my— does not define my faith.

Yes.

He might be having a trial of faith, but I have faith and I'm having the faith. So it's a balance. And so we're also very grateful because another outcome that came from that whole time period is we're so grateful that we didn't rush into getting married and that we actually made the decision to work through this together and to help me get healthy and support before we exchanged vows. And that has created such a powerful strength to our marriage. Because it's taught us to not sweat the small stuff, to let things go, and to not bicker and the tit-for-tat, like, oh, well, you got to go with your buddies last night, so tonight I'm going to— That's never been part of our marriage culture. And I really relate it, both of us do, to the fact that we had to overcome an incredible challenge before even exchanging the vows that established a concrete foundation for us afterwards.

That's great.

I—

that ties into— you already weaved faith into it. That ties into the second question that was, when people are in depression, in my experience as well, you said it, we always talk about it, especially after the fact that it's a journey. When you have the knowledge that your God can heal in an instant, physically, mentally, whatever, nothing's beyond his ability.

Mm-hmm.

Was it— how did you, how did you manage the frustration that God's provision and healing doesn't often— doesn't happen in an instant? How did you— did you have tests of faith where you, you know, maybe some imprecatory psalm kind of thing where you were frustrated and angry at God for not simply not just taking you out of where you were?

Yes. And I'm grateful for parents who tried their best and did their best to teach us the gospel, because I think maybe a leg up that I might've had going through all of this was knowing, or believing, I'll say, maybe not knowing fully, but believing that faith is a principle of action.

Yeah.

And the greatest gift that God has given us is the ability to act and the ability to use our faculties. Today, I call it a vitals check. Like when I experience an unforeseen circumstance or a less than great circumstance, I'm like, in my brain still to this day, I go, vitals check. Do my hands work? Do my feet work? Is my heart pumping blood? Does my brain work? Can I think? He's already given me Yeah. Every blessing he needs to give me in order to put my faith into action and get out of this. So the paradigm shift there, just for those that might wonder, you're wondering about instant healing and instant blessings. How much more instant can it be than you already have the blessing? You already have the gift. It's not being taken from you. It exists in real time. So I think that gave me a leg up because I'm like, well, it's not about what he's going to do. He already did his part. He atoned. What am I going to do with what he's given me? Some days that made me feel really guilty because I'm like, I'm not doing anything.

Sure.

But even that thought gave way to what I now realize is my greatest fear in the world. My greatest fear in the world is not The things that I can't control. My greatest fear in the world is mediocrity because it is truly the thing that I have entirely all control over. And my fear isn't just mediocrity, it's that I know that I have the control to not experience it. And so then if I make choices to experience it, that freaks me out.

Certainly.

He's already blessed us. You know, imagine this, right? It's like you do something nice for your neighbor and you keep doing something nice for your neighbor and they never see it. Does that change the fact that you already have done the nice thing?

No.

They just don't— they're not living in a state of mind where they're willing to see it or acknowledge it. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. The same thing applies here. Have you been vitals checked? Your hands and your toes and your fingers and your— Is it all working? And you are experiencing God's blessing in real time. So what are you going to do?

Hmm.

The second thing is this. Let's tie it even now into the eternal. We know that God is omnipresent, omniscient, right? Everything is real time for him. So if we are eternal creatures and he is an eternal being, And everything is in the present for him, then also your eternal reward is also the blessing that you're getting in real time. So you— how much one must ask themselves, what, what more do you want from the guy? But I want him to heal me like he healed people in the Bible. Yes. And how are you suggesting that he's not already doing that? Yes, and let's remember the Bible is a collection of scripture that was translated and translated and translated and translated. How do we know? Do we have the record that says that after the father brought his son to the Lord and healed him, that the, the father didn't go away at some point in the future saying, but I really wish he was better at soccer now? We don't have that record.

Right, right.

We assume that that father who brought, help thou my unbelief, those are great punchlines that are really faith-promoting. Are we really suggesting then that that father became a perfect convert?

Hmm.

Or did he go away in his carnal nature and at some point experienced hardship in the future, having watched the Savior heal his Son and didn't also continue to have a mortal experience where it's like, the bills came in again and my cash flow's off, my shekel flow is off, and my wife is getting on my nerves, or my husband's getting on my nerves, or my— you see what I mean?

Yeah, yeah.

The Bible is the word of God, period. But It's the word of God about the experiences that people had with God. I want to read their diaries that aren't in the Bible so that I can get a clearer reference point for that. So that's my argument against, or in addition to this concept of, but I wish he would just lay his hands on me and heal me the way I want to be healed.

Mm-hmm.

Well, who are you really? Who am I? I'm a child of God. Okay. So then can we agree that as your perfect, loving, and all-knowing, and all-wise parent, he is imparting to you the blessing and the experience and the understanding that he knows is best for you to get you to what he really wants? For you to return to him. He's blessing us constantly in real time. It's difficult for me to accept, and maybe I'm crazy, but it's difficult for me to accept the idea that on one half of my mouth I can say things like, God knows what's best for me. And then on the other side, when I experience a challenge, be like, how come he's not giving me what I want?

Yeah. What?

You know what I mean?

Sounds like the Israelites in the Old Testament there a little bit.

Isn't it though? And— Yeah.

We don't have any meat to eat.

And so, I say it somewhat facetiously, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, really to just demonstrate hopefully the flaw in that way of thinking. Hmm. What would your life look like if you were holding yourself accountable to think, I'm being blessed this instant?

Hmm.

I'm being blessed continually. His blessings flow forth. Like it says in the book of Malachi, the windows of heaven, you know, it's talking about tithes and offerings, but still, the windows of heaven will open and pour out blessings upon you with such abundance you won't even know what to do with them all. Because the thing is, just like the neighbor who doesn't see you mowing, doesn't care to even notice that you're mowing your lawn, doesn't change the fact that the lawn was getting mowed. In the same way, you're the one that has to make the choice to recognize the miracle, the abundance of miracles that are, I promise you, happening right in this very moment. Hmm. And just because you're not willing to see them or making the choice to be willing to see them does not change the fact that they are happening.

And if you— even if you don't see them in the moment, later on, you— in the change of perspective, you can reflect back on that. Absolutely. So as we wrap up, what would you say to someone who doesn't even know where to start? You know, because we've talked about many, many aspects of the journey in different places. And often the analysis paralysis is what I find catches most people. Physical health is the easiest one to tie in because it's one of the most obvious. People know the 2 basic things. People ask me for nutrition and fitness advice all the time. And it seems like they're always disappointed with the, with the response because there's, there's really nothing that beats the, the, you know, move more, eat better.

Yeah.

And so they're like, oh, well, I was just hoping you had an easier route.

I was hoping God could just bless me to lose weight right now. That's exactly right.

That's exactly right. So what What would you say to someone who doesn't even know where to start?

It's going to sound easier than some people might want to accept. Number one, take out a piece of paper. Okay. By the way, I'm telling you exactly what to do. You're saying you don't know where to start. I am telling you exactly what to do. My hope is that you are already pulling out a piece of paper. You take out a piece of paper, you draw a line down the middle. On the left, you write willingness to learn. On the right, you write willingness to take action. What I'm going to have you do is rate out of 10, 10 being the highest level of willingness, 1 being the lowest level of willingness. On the left, I want you to rate out of 10 your willingness to learn new things. On the right, I want you to rate out of 10, 10 being the highest level of willingness, 1 being the lowest, your willingness to take action on the things that you learn. Now, most people, when they do this exercise, Josh, they're like, 10, I'm willing to do, I'm willing to learn, I'm willing to do. Okay. Now, let me suggest an idea. Below that on the piece of paper, Below your ratings, I want you to think about something in your life, not someone. Okay? I want to be very clear. Not someone, something you absolutely cannot live without. For some, it's their phone. For some, it's coffee. For some, it's video games, guitar, music, whatever it might be.

Mm-hmm.

What is something you are absolutely not willing to live without? Write that down. Coffee's usually the biggest one. Now I want you to rate your willingness to learn and willingness to take action if I tell you that the only way you will achieve the next thing you want is to give up the thing that you think you can't live without.

Hmm.

That 10 goes to a 5 really quick. That 5 goes to a 3 really quick. Friends, what you have to Do, like cleaning out a garage that's full of garbage, in order— you have to make room for the thing that you believe is better. Hmm. Your willingness to learn and your willingness to take action must be 10 out of 10. And If you're not a 10 today, then what you do now is write down, what do I think it will take for me to get to a 10 willingness to learn and 10 willingness to take action?

That's right.

Maybe it's not giving up your phone indefinitely. Of course, I live in the same world as us, but maybe it's a social media fast because what you've identified as you pause and reflect, Brian Tracy says to sit in silence for 30 to 60 minutes and it's crazy what your brain will start to do to help you understand what your next actions should be. Maybe you've realized that social media has become such a distraction, the polarizing views, the feelings of anger and division. Maybe all of that was occupying in your mind and in your heart the space you really needed to know with clarity the next action that you need to take, the next first thing you need to do. The last thing to it is this. I believe that goal setting is very, very important. More so that achievable goals setting is incredibly important.

Yeah.

Work through the mechanics of it. If you're feeling bogged down or overwhelmed by the idea of lose 50 pounds, Hmm. Break it down. What's the closest thing to your achievement? Some might say, well, I've heard the nutritionists say lose a pound a week. Okay. Break that down.

Hmm.

Got to get rid of the junk food in my cupboards. Okay. There you go. Go do it. Take out the trash bin, throw out the garbage food, go to Kroger today, go to Meijer today, go whatever, Safeway, wherever you're listening, and replace it with Chicken. You know what I mean? Buy the eggs, buy the protein, buy the— break it down. It's like this. My studio door is 15 feet away. Is my goal to go and walk through the door or is it first to stand up out of my chair? Yep. Then is the next goal to walk to the door? Then is the next goal to reach out to the doorknob and twist it and then swing the door open and then walk through the door? Now, you might say, well, that sounds like too much, but let me break down the mechanics of why it works. When you set— you see, because I didn't disregard the end goal where I want to arrive. I'm not disregarding it. But when I break it down into bite-sized chunks, the mechanics of it are this. When I accomplish that first goal and I stand up out of my chair, I feel the sense of accomplishment, which improves my feelings of confidence and motivation.

Hmm.

To proceed on to the next part of the mechanics. And when I accomplish that milestone, my confidence, my shoulders go back. I feel more confident again, more motivated to go and proceed on to step 3 and step 4 and step 5 and so on and so forth. And before you know it, in rapid succession, you've achieved the thing.

Hmm.

I want to lose 50 pounds, of course. But do I want to lose 50 pounds or do I also want to gain muscle along the way? So like, Figure out your— this goes all the way back to the beginning. What's your definition of success? What do you actually want to do? Today, it may be that you just need to get out of bed.

That's right.

Today, it may be that instead of wearing joggers and not doing your hair, forgetting to brush your teeth, that you do that one thing to take care of yourself. And you do it. And guess what? It's your life. You get to decide, I'm going to do that for a week. I'm going to do that for 21 days. I'm going to do that for 30 days. I'm going to do it for 60 days. Do that. I'm an advocate for don't even introduce anything else to overwhelm you.

That's right.

Get it done. Along the way, my gosh, I've been doing it for 15 days. I feel great. I'm going to do it again tomorrow because I feel great. I got out of bed and I chose to get out of bed. I brushed my teeth and I showered and I put on— Nicer clothes because I feel— oh, I'm feeling good. Along that path, you'll be inspired to what the next step after that is going to be. I want anyone who hears this, my hope, my prayer is anyone who hears this stops comparing themselves today to someone else's tomorrow.

That's right.

I had a friend of mine one day as I was approaching 40, I was like 38 at the time, and I'm talking to him and I'm like, dude, it's weird. The closer I get to 40, I have this feeling of I'm running out of time. There's this weird urgency that I'm feeling like, oh my gosh, there's so many things. My ambition is so big. There's so many things that I want to accomplish. And he was a great reminder. Michael, I turned 54 2 weeks ago and I just accomplished the biggest, most hairy, audacious goal on my goal list that I set for myself. What I know of you is the goals you're setting, the ambitions you have, the path you are already on. What will that look like with— I mean, he's 54, I was 38. What will that look like with 17, 16, more years of time. You're doing everything. The only component you have is you just got to put more time. Good thing for you, you got more time. Herein lies the human condition. We have— we feel like there's less time than we want, but there is actually more than we're willing to admit.

Yeah.

And so if the time is going to happen anyways and I am going to exist in that time, then I may as well continue on the course Because he's right. Let's say I'm 40 at the time and he's 54. What would another 14 years for me look like if I continue down this path? Incredible.

Yeah.

For those that are just getting started, rate your willingness to learn, your willingness to take action. What are you willing to not get rid of in a bad way, but what are you willing to release in order to make More room, just like clearing out a garage, just like you know clearing out the cupboards to reorganize. Just it's just like that. That is sacrifice. Sacrifice is not this negative thing. You got to be willing to sacrifice it all. Break it apart. Here's where I'll end. Sacrifice actually comes from the Latin roots "sacer" and "facere." Literally means the act of Becoming holy. It's like a consecrated process. In modern times, we relate sacrifice to, I got to give up something I really want.

Absolutely.

And that's going to be painful. Ah, but what if you changed your paradigm and realized this is the act of you becoming something? That is bigger and bolder and greater and more capable than where you currently are. It's just the act of making room, making room in your heart and in your mind. That is the sacrifice. You're not giving up your phone. You are releasing the things that this distracts you from, or can distract you.

Hmm.

To make room To focus, to do the things that you want to accomplish that you're feeling probably weary about because you have the ambition but don't have the action plan. It's right there. It's available to you.

Hmm.

That, my friends, is an instant blessing. You're being instantly blessed, instantly healed, not by me, but by the creator of the universe and all things in it, that you right now, despite whatever you've convinced yourself of, are actually in a position to create your next step and your next step and your next step. That is one of the greatest blessings aside from the Lord Jesus Christ that God can give us, the ability to act, the ability to choose. What will you choose today? Everything that you're wanting to experience in this life is right on the other side of that choice.

Didn't know we were going to church today.

Hey, oh, hey.

All right. Final question we ask every guest is, what is the one thing, Michael, that you would tell your 20-year-old self? You're gonna be bald. That's probably it.

Yeah, just wait. 20-year-old Michael was already going bald. He just didn't want to admit it. I would tell him, stay the course. Stay the course. It's going to be okay. You are already future you in an incubator. Stay the course.

Yeah, that's strong.

Yeah. And I'm telling 43-year-old Michael today, stay the course. By the way, guys, the challenges aren't going to go away.

Right.

Stay the course.

They sometimes get bigger, which is why we say things like we wouldn't change the past because they set us up for now. Well, the same is going to be true of the future. Yeah.

I mean, it's like even parenthood is the perfect microcosm for this thesis. Michael, stay the course. Why? Because what you're learning today as a father is the wisdom you will be able to impart your children when they are mothers and fathers. And the things you're learning today are the incubator for you getting to be an awesome grandpa. Stay the course. Stay the course. Now, let's see, where are we? November 15th, 2025, at time of recording.

Mm-hmm.

For those listening in the future, this past July, I went to Canada. It was my parents' 50th wedding anniversary. Dude, the joy in their eyes to see 5 children, spouses, 19 grandchildren, young enough to experience here shortly, great-grandchildren in their 70s. What? Yeah. My mom's young. She's 71.

70.

50 years of marriage, 70 years old, potential to see great-grandkids. The joy. Do you think my parents went through it like everyone else did? Yeah. Did they deal with the teenagers? Yeah. Did they deal with the financial problems and the— Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And then all of a sudden, 50 years later, looking at a room full of— a ballroom full of people that are related That they created. And the joy and the emotion of ringing that bell. Stay the course. God has you in his hands. When I was depressed, I felt like I turned my back on God. The greatest blessing all these years later is realizing he never once, never once turned his back on mine, me, and actually carried me through that entire experience in his—

Mm-hmm.

Merciful hands. Stay the course. Stay the course. You deserve to stay the course, by the way. You deserve to stay the course. Stay the course.

Stay the course. All right, Michael. Well, it's always a joy to talk to you. Thank you for joining us today and sharing some amazing wisdom from your experience.

I didn't even go full goof mode on you.

There's always next time. Thanks for listening to the Optimizing Beyond podcast. Remember, growth happens when you take action. So subscribe, share this with a friend, and most importantly, put what you learned into practice. Until next time, keep moving forward because daily anything changes everything.