Rewriting Stories: Identity, Shame, & Connection | Dr. Kevin Whisman

Welcome to the Optimizing Beyond podcast. I'm Josh Negron, and this show's all about sharing lessons, ideas, and strategies that sharpen your thinking, strengthen your habits, and push you to grow beyond comfort zones. Let's dive in. All right, welcome back, folks. Today I have a dear friend of mine, Kevin Wiseman. Welcome to the show, sir.

Thank you. Thanks for having me, Josh.

Absolutely. It is an honor. Sir, tell us a little bit about yourself, what you do and what you're about.

Absolutely. So first and foremost, I guess I'm a husband and a dad. I think that's probably the most important thing that's qualified me for life for the most part. As a profession, I am a psychologist. So I've been practicing as a licensed psychologist for 26 years. And I've had the pleasure of actually working for Hope City Church for the past 5 years as their director of counseling and emotional health.

Yes. Such good stuff. So in light of that, I want to ask you a specific question in your profession. This show's all about optimizing and taking people from where they are to the next level, which is obviously unique to everyone. So you're going to see people ranging from rock bottom to others who are looking to help with one specific challenge they can't get past or hangup maybe, to people just coming to you like an oil change, like, hey, Are marriages good? Just want to see what's up. Like, do you see anything? How do you discern what to ask, what to reflect, or maybe even what to suggest?

That's a great question. So I think what I tell everybody when they first come see me— so we'll just set this up kind of like this is the first time we've ever met, Josh. So you're sitting on my couch now, right? You've just entered into the office. And I'll say something like this, of like, I believe that life is a story. I believe that God is the author of the story. But in the context of story, there are all kinds of things that take place. There's all kinds of chaos, there's all kinds of confusion. And maybe even a little bit of craziness from time to time. So my job is to help people understand the story that they have found themselves in. So ultimately, where we begin is just what, what brings you in. And then from there, we're able to typically take things back to their past. There's something within their story that they're trying to resolve still. And that's where we begin to understand the chaos and the confusion and even the craziness. So loosely used term. Yes.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So we've— I've referenced before that clinical concept of how when someone experiences something traumatic, that in, in that segment of their life, when they experience things that are similar to that, it's almost like, you know, it's easy to look at that person when they seem to act out, to label that their behavior maybe as childish, you know, but there might be something there. Can you explain in much, a much better way, like what that is, why that happens, and, and just, just how the phenomenon works?

Yeah, I think first thing I would do is just go back to even define at least the way that I understand trauma, right? Trauma is anything that we encounter outside of God's original intent in the garden. So when we begin to take a look at that, of like, it's not always just these major defining moments that have taken place in life. It's not even that anything significantly bad has happened, but maybe it's something of where, where something really good could have happened and it didn't. So maybe— I was listening to another podcast recently, and the guy that was speaking on that, Michael Cusick, made the comment that in a lot of the counseling that he does, a third of the people will come in with these capital T traumas of like, they know that something has happened, and they know that that's the source of everything. Except that the other two-thirds will come in and they begin to recognize of like, they grew up in a home and everything was really good, but it became about the only way that they found acceptance or belonging or nurturance was through their performance. And 2/3 of those guys will come in and like, no, things are great. Look at me, look at how well life is going. But then they begin to recognize if maybe they grew up in a home that was less than nurturing. So it's not that anything bad happened, it's just nothing good necessarily did happen. And that then leads to trauma and the things that we begin to believe about ourselves and the stories that we tell ourselves of how we want to be seen. And that can get us into some of that confusion and chaos if we're not careful.

Hmm, what are the most common, like, lower, like lower T traumas that you encounter? Like, not the big stuff, but what, what are you— what do you find is the most common that, that people are blind to, that they didn't— they don't know, they're not aware of?

See, another guy I like to listen to is Dan Allender, and he says that we're all created for delight and honor. So again, when you take a look at that from just a story perspective, and the growing up years of where was delight in you missed, where was honoring you missed, and oftentimes the The trauma is really when one of those things didn't happen. So it's small things, right, of like that, that begin to create within us a question of our identity in who we are, who we believe we are. And that's what I go after then, I think, in the counseling world is, is really about identity and what voices are we listening to? What are we believing to be true? What is the origin story that first created this lie that maybe we're not good enough or that we are a failure and that those are— we weren't accepted, right? So those are the things that I would say are common themes that most people aren't necessarily aware of. They're often looking for that capital T trauma, you know, the physical abuse, the sexual abuse, the tornadoes, you know, fires, the natural disasters types of things.

Divorce. Yeah.

Big, big stuff.

Yeah, parents divorce.

Yep, for sure.

So then another facet to all this is the concept of shame, right? And so how do you view how shame works most often to really limit people or hold them back?

Yeah, shame is that very thing. Again, this is that identity thing. Shame says that you are bad, right? And we begin to believe that we are bad. And I really borrow from Brené Brown on this. One of the things that she taught me in one of her books was that one, we all have shame. Right? None of us have made it to this point where we haven't experienced some level of shame. And shame, I believe, was that very first human condition. In the garden, man and woman were both naked, and they felt no shame, right? But as soon as their eyes were opened because of the decisions they made, they recognized their nakedness, and they began to hide. And we all then want to hide, right? We go into the shadows in this shame. And that's what shame will make us do. So we all have it. None of us want to talk about our shame. And the less that we talk about it, the more power it ends up having. So when we begin to even approach shame in our stories, we're bringing it much closer into the light, and it begins to create a sense of freedom and a new discovery on who we really are.

Absolutely. So in today's age, statistics seem to suggest that people are more than— more willing to go to therapy than ever. However, conversely, there seems to be more depression and anxiety than ever as well. Do you— how do you— I mean, obviously, it's not that binary where it's that not a correlative relationship. So how do you see that trend? And, you know, as a clinician, like, how do you interpret that?

That's a great question. Because having done this for 26 years, I've been able to witness just the changing of our society and our world in a lot of ways, right? So where I'm going to take that is the advancement of the internet, then went to technology in and of itself, that went to the smartphones in 2008, which went to, you know, children Receiving smartphones by the time now they're 6 to 8 years old, I think is what's average. And then we're starting to see that uptick in anxiety and depression based upon their social media use. So to be the old curmudgeon of like, this is the thing where I'm starting to see of like what we're, what we're experiencing is we're the most connected we've ever been from a technological standpoint. However, we're the most disconnected that we've ever been because we— loneliness is that thing that the— what? It's become an epidemic here recently, even in that loneliness. I think the Surgeon General announced that a couple years ago, loneliness being this epidemic. So it's interesting to see that anxiety and depression are on that rise. And I do think it has everything to do with we want— it goes back to these ideas of attachment and of like, we want to be seen, we want to be accepted, we want to belong. And I just don't know that we're doing that face to face in the presence of another as much as we are posting on social media.

When you see social media, the content that's on there, obviously there's a lot of data that talks about how negative news or content seems to spread much faster than positive content. So when you're sitting across from somebody that you know this is a part of their limitation, what are the most common practical ways that you give people to kind of lessen the negative effects of those mediums?

Okay, so here's one of the most difficult things, right, is because of all the social media that we're receiving, all the posts that we are doing, like just the constant scrolling that people are engaging in is actually, I believe that to be like an addictive type of cycle. The brain is constantly searching for something new and something novel. And we find ourselves escaping from the daily hassles into a numbing type of activity on these things. And we receive in that these dopamine hits, which is the feel-good neurotransmitter, the chemical in the brain. And it becomes an addiction. And when I ask people of like, hey, have you considered just fasting from social media for a day? It becomes a huge challenge. 10 minutes, right? Just asking people to set their phones down for 10 minutes is an uncomfortable activity. Asking them to go to a restaurant and sit across from their spouse and not take their phones in just so they have eye contact and they're face to face and they're having real conversation is uncomfortable for people. So it's a challenge. But those are some of the practical things I will encourage people to do because it begins to help us recognize how much our brains are being shaped and molded by technology and media.

That's so true. And, you know, it's funny how you phrase that towards the end where you mentioned that tech is unfortunately what is taking people away from face-to-face interaction when earlier you mentioned that that's the very thing that is contributing, like that's what we all crave and yet that's not what we're getting. It's this artificial version and it, and just, just how destructive that can be to, to adding loneliness to the equation.

Yeah, no, it's what, uh, so Curt Thompson, another name I'll throw out there, a guy that I like, says that we were all born into a world looking for someone looking for us. So born into a world looking for someone looking for us. Now, anytime Curt speaks, he's one of those I got to kind of slow down. So that's why I repeated it twice so people can really hear that, right? Because then when we begin to take a look at even The creation story, the way that I see this, of like it says that God shaped man out of the dust of the earth and he breathed into him the breath of life and he became a living being. And then I just picture that scene and the very first thing that man saw, face of God. And the very thing that we witness when, when babies are born is they begin to turn their heads. They begin looking around for the voices that they have known. So they're looking for eye contact with mom. They're looking for eye contact with dad and their siblings of like, this is true. So from attachment theory, we begin to even say like, this is a cradle to grave type of thing. And, you know, we're constantly looking for that attachment and that connection with others from the beginning of life to the end of life. And even, you know, it is ironic, like you and I are sitting here now and, you know, we're looking at one another. But what one of the things I refuse to do is the telehealth therapy in most cases. Because if I'm not in the room with somebody, I don't sense them and their emotional state as well as when they are with me. And that just goes back to the idea of loneliness, you know, of like, we need to actually be sitting in the presence with people in their joy and in their pain. And we need to be able to connect with them in that.

That probably helps in the healing process too, because it's more genuine.

Yeah.

Well, in talking about artificial things and things that are not as real, I mean, you and I have actually talked about how if artificial intelligence is prompted well, you can get some really, really cool responses out of it from a therapy-like perspective. You can be like, hey, I need you to act like a CBT-certified therapist and kind of go into it. Um, what, what kind of thoughts do you have just initially about, you know, you know, people are using it like a therapist. Um, what, what thoughts do you have? This is really cool, but it's also really, there's some angst there. Like, so what are your thoughts on that?

No, it is. And I love how at least the flow of our conversation has led to this point then too, right? Of like, I've used AI. It's amazing. It really is. But exactly what we're saying though, of like, AI will be able to share with you from a perspective of CBT therapy or even attachment therapy or emotion-focused therapy, right? Of like, it It can really help you understand things. But again, what's lacking in that is the presence of another person. And I truly believe that a lot of the healing takes place just in the presence of another. Because let's go back to even our conversation of shame, right? Of like, if we are really dealing with shame being our identity, and it's saying that we're bad, and yet, you know, we have this AI that's helping us walk through a new identity and things. We're still not able to make those confessions or make those statements that we've been withholding aloud to another person. And even in my own walk and journey of like, the thing that helped me heal the most was being able to say out loud the very thing that I thought I could never say out loud and being received by the other person that I was speaking that to, right? So I think that would be my biggest challenge. I don't know what research says on any of this, but I think AI will create problems in the therapeutic modality. When it lacks presence.

Yeah, yeah, 'cause you don't have that connection. You're not able to free yourself from shame 'cause again, you haven't shared anything with anyone actually. Man, that's so true. I have a concern about, 'cause you hear these cases where the AI companies have gotten in trouble because their model has agreed or led someone down a path of like, yeah, maybe you should. do some things that aren't great, a word I can't say for YouTube. And so I think, I think the way I view it is there's a neuroscientist I heard speak about when she was doing her own therapy, that when she was in a broken state, that she saw a ton of value in— the language she used was she was, was able to take her brain and hand it to another person with a healthy brain. And they could kind of articulate some things for her and hand it back to her in a way that she could understand. And that helped her heal. Yeah. And so what that, what that kind of says to me is it's a process of reflection. You're sharing with somebody who's not in it with you, who can reflect back in a healthy way on maybe what some avenues and paths and in simple, simply just sometimes understanding on how to move past it. And so my concerns with AI and that, with that idea is why would artificial intelligence lead someone to some, some conclusions that a human would never do? And I wonder if, you know, because we've all used AI, prompted it poorly, and the result is just garbage. And you're like, okay, I know it's me because it can be great at times. So my prompt was just lazy, so I need to figure this out. So I wonder, you know, when someone's in high distress, what are their abilities to prompt AI well and give it proper context, give it healthy context? And so I see that They're not— they have that unhealthy brain she was describing. They're handing it to AI, and who knows what spiral could result from that. So what do you like? How do you see that? What do you think?

I know you're bringing up questions and thoughts that I haven't even pondered yet, right? Like, that's just fascinating of how you're even explaining that. So I think where I would really fall back is this idea of the lack of the presence of another person. Oh, if a person is in a dysregulated state and they're searching AI, then chances are the information they would receive— that's what you're saying, right?— may not be the best for them. So who is then speaking into them of like, have you considered these things? Like, who's— okay, let's go to this of like, one of the phrases I like to teach people is before we ever direct somebody, we have to connect with them first.

Mm-hmm.

So we have to emotionally connect, right? Right brain hemisphere to right hemisphere. Those are emotional And AI lacks the ability, I would assume, to be able to connect with an individual emotionally. But when we're able to connect with a person emotionally, we're able to help regulate them. So if they've been dysregulated, now we're able to regulate them. Now they're at a place where they feel seen, they know they're soothed, and now they're safe in that situation. And we can now speak to them with logic to redirect.

Hmm.

So that's the thing that comes to mind if I were to think that through a little bit more of like, yeah, we're not able to connect with AI in that way.

Yeah, yeah, that makes total sense. 'Cause AI seems to always go for the jugular, right? Like if I don't tell it to wait, like if I wanna write a high-quality blog post, I need to tell it a lot of things before we get to that stage. And then I probably am gonna prompt it multiple times. So my first half of the prompts are gonna always be like, hey, don't write it. I want to tell you some things beforehand.

Right?

And so I picture the therapy piece being pretty similar to where you want to share something before you even get halfway through what human would want to know.

Yeah.

It's going to take what you're willing to offer, probably the first morsel of it, and then be like, sweet. All right, let's do it. That's very, very true. Yeah. Yeah. I just don't think that's the best recipe. But it's just so easy, right?

It's so easy. But isn't that even what we escape into, right? Like, again, I go back to even the garden and original sin of like, there were 2 trees, the tree of knowledge, and then the tree of life. And it's like, we want knowledge. And that's all left hemisphere activity. But oftentimes, like our most difficult struggles are coming from, you know, the lower brain and the right side of We're dysregulated because of something we've experienced. And we're just, we're wanting life, but we're just going about it through knowledge as opposed to truth.

Yeah, for sure. In the, in the light of challenge, obviously we know that, that change can be something that propels people to better levels. The concept of like embracing discomfort, right? That progress is typically not going to be found in your own comfort. It's usually the inverse of that from a conceptual standpoint. And so in your practice, how do you view that concept? How do you employ it to help people? Like, we just transitioned from the ease of something like using AI for therapy and its shortcomings. Easy usually doesn't mean beneficial, right? It's the things that are hard to do.

Yeah. And I mean, the way that I've began to start conceptualizing this though too, of like, let's just go back to, you know, marriages of like when there's conflict, where there's tension within that of like, that's not a problem. Also not easy, right? Of like, there's something within that. And oftentimes we will have our own way of trying to escape that, whether that's numbing out through social media or whether that's just going to the other room or whether, like, whatever that is. What I'm beginning to understand and recognize and teach people is that what that conflict and tension is, is actually an awakening of desire. There's something in there that you want in a healthy way, but of maybe not learned how to be able to ask for that or have avoided asking for that because you think you're too much or you're too needy or you're being selfish. But really, the uncomfortable things lead to the pleasant or the comfortable things. It just requires our willingness to step into that comfort.

Hmm. That made me think of when Jordan Peterson talks about marriage. He— his content is so good. He talks about one of his phrases is like, have the damn fight, right? Because he talks about how destructive something even just very small can be if not addressed.

Yeah.

If stonewalled or avoided. Again, that's pursuing comfort over that discomfort. And then something, he calls it the spirit of something, just is allowed to grow into something, you know, monstrous, and to use his language, right? And he's like, but if you decide to just actually attack the issue and have the fight, then you can, he's like, it's hard work, Especially when something has gone unaddressed for so long that you can really— he's like, it takes a lot of digging, but you can really get to a much deeper intimacy and understanding of that other person if you're willing to go to that depth.

Absolutely. And it's always worth it, right? Because that's— I will tell people that conflict is that open door. It's actually the closed door of like, it's the thing that we often don't want to walk through. But when we walk through it, It frees us to so much more because there's so much more on the outside of that. When we consistently avoid conflict, one of the metaphors I like to use is the beach ball. And it's like, the conflict is the beach ball, and we try to keep that thing held underneath the water, right? And there's so much energy that we invest in keeping that thing under the water where if we would just let that thing come up, like there's a whole nother world to be able to see, right?

Hmm.

And then, yeah, we're able to actually be and do what we were intended to, to do. So, yeah.

Agreed. Agreed. So from a super practical standpoint, say someone's listening and, you know, there's such a broad spectrum of need, right? Again, from rock bottom all the way to, I could do things better. What would you recommend is a way that someone can self-evaluate those things to identify the lowest hanging fruit? Sometimes it's obvious, Of course. But, you know, other times, like you said earlier, it isn't. So what are some ways that people can, can identify what they need to do, what that, what that next challenge needs to be, and so they can go chase it?

Yeah, no, I think the first thing that I would say to answer that would be, what is it you want? What is that desire? What is that longing? What's that ache, you know, in the heart? Like, what is that thing that you really want? And begin to start identifying that. And then I would say, what are the obstacles to that? Of like, what is it that's holding you back. And oftentimes when we begin to understand that things are holding us back, like we're going to identify some, you know, negative self-belief if we're to go into cognitive behavioral types of therapy, but there's going to be a lie there of some kind of like, I can't do that. Nobody would appreciate me or understand me if I were to do that. Of like, it's just never worked. Here's a big one that I hear all the time, right? It's that resignation line of like, it is what it is. Like, no, it doesn't have to be. Like somewhere we've lost hope, right? Or we've lost the ability to be able to see the way things are supposed to be. So I'd say first identify the wants, the longings, the desires. And then we have a tendency to focus on a lot of negative things. Like we see all of the negativity and all of the distractions around us. So what's one thing, just name one thing in your life right now that you are thankful for, or that is lovely, that is beautiful, that is captivating of like, look at these things and just pay attention. Just allow that to open you up to wonder and get curious about that of like, Like, because that's going to help reveal some of that longing and desire that's within. And then start identifying what are some of those obstacles. And more than likely, it's going to be an I statement of some kind that's been holding you back for years. And it's going to be a theme in the story. And when you go back and start to unpack the theme of the story, you'll see where that first— where that thought first came from. And then some healing can take place in those areas.

Mm-hmm.

So that's a lot. I don't know. It's not easy. Oh my But that, that's where I would tell people to start.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, and because that could be a lot for some people, how do they know when, when they can't do it themselves? Like when, like, they need to go to a professional, right?

Well, you're asking the wrong guy, right? Because this is what I've been doing.

Conflict of interest.

I can say I've been that guy, right? And again, it goes back to even what we were talking about in regards to just attachment of like, we were never intended to do this alone.

Hmm.

There's none of this that can be done alone. Like, no, we need others and we need relationship with others and not, you know, just 2, 3 people in your life that can just really be present with you. So that's what I would say. Like, it doesn't have to be, you know, a therapist that you go see. It could be, but no, who are the 2 or 3 people in your life that you can really be fully seen and truly known, completely vulnerable, no shame, You know, no condemnation of just being present with them of like, if you don't have those people, then okay, what's holding you back? Like, because that's a longing. It's a desire. I think we're wired for it. I think we're created for it. And so what's holding you back in that and then breakthrough, go for it.

Yeah. And we've covered before on the channel about how important that circle of 3 to 5-ish people are. And then how if that circle is not healthy, then, you know, that's gonna be, that's gonna reflect upon you as the individual as well. You know, and it isn't just like a net worth or like an accomplishment thing, which, you know, there is that phrase of show me, show me your network and I'll show you your net worth, right?

Right, right.

And so there's a lot of business and success gurus that talk about that. And of course there's truth to that, but from a mental standpoint, why wouldn't the same thing apply in that regard? So if you, and I've talked to people who, when they start to want to improve, And start to do mental disciplines like gratitude and things like that, they start to realize actually pretty quickly, usually within a month, that they have some people in their circle that are like crabs in the bucket, right? And that you're just like, man, like I can't be joyful. I can't be happy because if I say, man, it's such a beautiful day, that person's like, yeah, but you never know. You know, this is what the government's doing. And then you're like, okay, can you— okay, I need, I need out of this.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you got to surround yourself with people who are willing to do the same, right? Of like, people can bring you down. That goes back to even for whatever reason, we have a tendency to pick up negativity rather than positivity, right? Rather than affirmations. It's just for whatever reason, it's like this thing that just sticks to us. So we got to find those people in our life that, that are able to see things more clearly and to awaken those desires within Desires are good. I don't know, somewhere we got off track and started thinking that our desires were selfish or evil, but desires are good.

There's a phrase that always sticks to me because people, people tend to be very self-critical with the items attached to their shame, right? Of course, that makes total sense. That's why people self-loathe themselves and those kinds of things. But I heard a quote that said that every dark or sinful desire is attached to a holy root. And I remember hearing that, and at first I was like, no way.

Yeah.

And then, but the more you think about it, it is those things that people desire that aren't good for them. It is always coming from something unaddressed, something that they lacked or got that they didn't ask for, all of those things. And it's just, it's so, it's a mechanism that really helps understand that where things come from. And that a desire can be healthy and it doesn't need to be attached to selfishness or any of those negative things.

You're spot on then, because shame does get into that then too. And it's like, no, we gotta have those people in our life that can walk us through that and help us recognize that, no, that's, that's a longing that we were intended to have. Yeah. That shame or evil has spoken into for way too long. Yeah. We gotta break that.

Yeah. And you said something that made me think of something I had never thought about before.

Okay.

That is. Yeah, you said that, uh, that negative things tend to be more sticky, right? Which we talked about before, but I had— I started asking myself why that could be. And I don't want to like over-spiritualize it or make it sound like, ooh, but obviously there is, you know, you and I believe that there is an entity that is interested in the destruction of us, right? And so he's active in behind everything that's negative and evil. 'Cause it's almost like you look at that and you're like, well, if someone says something wonderful, like a compliment, it might have an effect, may not. That's a whole nother conversation, right? Accepting compliments.

Yeah.

But, you know, like one negative criticism can wipe out 1,000 compliments.

Why is that?

You know? And so I had wondered, you know, there is a being who's interested in magnifying everything to get as much mileage as he can with those things. That's just an interesting— as you were saying that, I was like, man, maybe that's part of it.

Oh, for sure. Yeah. The enemy comes to steal, kill, and destroy. Right. And I was sitting with somebody just recently, and just unpacking their story. And one of the things I asked then is like, what is it that you, you wanted as this 12-year-old? And sure enough, the words acceptance and belonging came out. And those, those aren't my words that I've coached him to say, because I don't even know this individual well yet. Right. Acceptance and belonging. He's been living out the story of rejection and fear of rejection, which keeps him then bound, right? Why? Because of this event that took place when he was young, where he ended up believing that he was rejected, that he had no, no particular value to anyone. And that one spoken word, or that one sentence that took 10 seconds for that individual to speak to him, is still wreaking havoc 20 years later, 30 years later, right? And that's what Dan Allender will say is like, shame, why does it come when we're so early? Because the return on investment, the 10 seconds is still playing out, you know, 30, 40, 50 years later. And it's like, yeah, it's just that whisper too. And it's like, until we learn to stand up to that whisper and just say, no, no, I choose to believe something different. I choose to believe that I am. Worthy, that I do have value, that I am accepted, acceptable, lovable. You know, when we begin to do that, things will begin to change.

Beautiful, beautiful. Well, Kevin, one of my favorite questions to end on is. Oh yeah. It's to ask what is the one thing that you wish you could go back and tell 20-year-old Kevin?

Mm-hmm.

To help you back then?

Oh man, 20-year-old. That's not an age that I've looked at in a while. If you said 8-year-old, man, I would have had it, I think. Man, 20-year-old would probably just be, hang on, hang on. That was a difficult season in my life. And that's a season in life where there's a lot of regret. You know, and that's probably where shame began to enter into the story even heavier, to begin to heap on a little bit too. So if I were to look at 20-year-old Kevin, hang on. But then it goes back to those value statements as well. It's like, you really are lovable. You really do have value and worth, and people are going to need you. That's probably what I'd try to convince him.

Yeah, there's that, there's that purpose statement at that end. That's awesome.

Yeah. And, and your story matters, right? Because if I hadn't have had that story, I wouldn't have been able to sit in the presence of so many individuals too, because your story matters. Our scars are what are actually healing for others.

It's so, it's so hard for people to believe that, especially early on, you know. But I—

Especially in it, when you're in it, right?

No joke. Yeah. It's a, it's a step in the 10 steps process of helping another alcoholic for a reason that, that takes— I think it can happen before step 10, honestly. It's probably more helpful that way. But something magical happens when, when someone takes the focus off themselves and then transitions that into, you know, even if they are Just a couple steps ahead of like, hey, this is, this is my story, this is where I am, this is how it's helped me. And then when, when I see them make that switch, the— that helps take them away from that narcissistic view and, you know, that self-focused anxiety and really helps them see the growth that they may be missing in themselves start to flourish in someone else. Like, that's so— that is so powerful.

It is. And yeah, rewarding. And I mean, that's, that's part of it too, of like when we serve others, like we're flooded with these positive chemicals within our body that reinforce our desire to do more of that. Again, it's a divine creation.

It's like it's on purpose.

Yeah, for sure.

Well, Kevin, I appreciate you joining us today. That was a great conversation.

Absolutely. Thanks for having me. It was good.

All right, folks. Well, thanks for listening to the Optimizing Beyond podcast. Remember, growth happens when you take action. So subscribe, share this with a friend, and most importantly, put what you learned into practice because as we know, daily anything changes everything.