Raising Kids Who Can Handle Real Life | Dr. Shefali

We're talking too much to our children. We think they're logical and A to B to C. They are not. They are not. They are not. Then you lose your temper.

Every time we fix it, we're taking practice away from them.

It just teaches them, when I'm uncomfortable, I can change my reality.

Life is going to throw you people who correct you, who say things that you don't want to hear. I'm not going to rescue you from this.

Our children need us parents more than ever before to be awake. There's so much anxiety. There's very little action. Parents don't know how.

Forget about kids. I do that.

The algorithm is talking to your boys and your girls very differently.

The 11-year-old gets corrected by her teacher, her parents call the school, they switch the teacher, they take the stressor away. Her fragility was cultivated.

You need to know how the algorithm is testing them, seducing them, intoxicating them, addicting them.

We have to do a meeting of the minds. Are you feeling ready, Dr. Shefali?

Let's go ahead.

Welcome to The Parent Coaching Chair. I'm your host, Julie Fragnito, and your partner in And I have a very special guest joining me today, clinical psychologist, New York Times bestselling author, founder of the Conscious Parenting Movement, and the one who turned the camera around and asked the question that changed how so many of us parent. What if the work starts with us? She has 2 new books coming out next week, and she is sitting with me here today. Please welcome Dr. Shefali.

Hi, thank you for having me.

I am so glad you're here. Before we get into any of it, Dr. Shefali, you didn't just write one book, but you wrote 2 at the same time. How has this season of life looked for you? This sounds like a lot.

Yeah, it is a lot, but I think I was so inspired by the urgency of the message that our children need us parents more than ever before. To be awake, to be in agency and action and feel inspired because I feel there's so much anxiety, but there's very little action because parents don't know how. So these books provide tools and strategies. They are deep, they are transformational, but they're also with a lot of how-to and giving parents the blueprint that will anchor them into taking their power back as parents.

I am so excited to ask questions about your books, but before we do, I thought if I'm having you on my show, we have to do a little bit of a meeting of the minds. And I came up with a game for us to play. The name of the game is What's Underneath and What Now? I had my audience send in questions, parenting stuff that's wearing them down, stuff that they just feel stuck in. Maybe they need a little bit more of an understanding with. And so I will read the scenario and I'll throw it to you and you'll take what's underneath. You'll tell us about, you know, what's happening inside, what's going on in the nervous system, all of that amazing stuff. And then from there, I will take what now, the practical piece. Once you give us the understanding and the education, I'm gonna give the parents something that they could use literally when they end listening to our call if they need to. So are you feeling ready, Dr. Shefali?

All right, let's go ahead.

I'll start with the first question that came in. When my 5-year-old hears the word no, she flips instantly, screaming, throwing things, telling me I'm stupid. And then about 15 minutes later, she's calm and wants to reconnect like nothing happened. In the moment, it feels impossible. How can I help her before it gets To this point.

So what's happening is that her brain is not developed and she doesn't have regulation yet. Her prefrontal cortex is not yet online. She feels overwhelmed and overstimulated. A no is actually threatening to her. She doesn't understand that there is no real threat. And so she attacks back. This is just very primitive, primal responses. The parent looks at this and goes, oh my God, I'm doing something wrong, or the child is a loser, or what's going on? And this is bad, bad, bad. We need to understand this is normal, normal, normal. Nothing to do about it. Don't worry about it. And the minute you don't worry about it, you can just see it as a little cyclone, a little, you know, rainstorm, and just wait for it to pass. No point talking about anything in that dysregulated moment. You never talk to anybody and you don't talk when you are or they are dysregulated. So this just means that the child is incapable Because of their development to handle whatever you're throwing at them. So don't get attached to the behavior. If she called you stupid, don't get attached there. You can just be calm, you know, tell yourself that you are fine. My child is having a bad time, not giving a bad time, but we don't have to look at this as a bad thing. This is a normal developmental progression.

I'll take the what now. Parents will immediately wanna jump in with those Outrageous comments, right? Stop being so dramatic. Forget it. No dessert. Or you are so disrespectful. I need to teach you how to be respectful. But the idea here, as you said, is their nervous system is so dysregulated at this point, none of that is gonna sink in. It's gonna go in one ear and out the other. It might not even go in. And so what we wanna do instead of taking the original no and adding in a power struggle or a lecture or a lesson or threats. We want to be quiet. As you said, don't even say anything. So if parents have trouble just being silent and standing there, you could even say, I'm here when you're ready to talk. You could even say, I have something to let you know when this moment's feeling more calm. And then purse your lips shut. Go fold a blanket, wash a dish, stay nearby, but the back and forth that we're feeding Is communicating something that we don't wanna communicate, that now is a productive time to solve a problem.

Right.

And we never wanna teach our kids that, right? Even with a spouse, with a partner, that is not a productive time to solve a problem. I'll wait. So for this mom who's asking, well, what am I supposed to do when I am silent and then it's over? Do I just let it go? Do I ignore it? No, right? Of course not. You can say something like, You can be really mad. You can never call me stupid. And then give her a replacement or him a replacement for what the feeling was that they were trying to communicate in the first place. Can I have 2 more minutes, please?

Right.

Or instead of screaming, you're stupid when I say you can't have a cookie, when can I have a cookie? Right?

Right.

And so we're actually equipping our kids with words to make it work for them. So that we can start building a more healthy dialogue between us.

Yes. Yes, for sure. And parents just don't realize that there's nothing to fix. It's only a muscle to build.

I love that. I have question number 2 here. I prep my kids that bedtime is coming. They ignore me. I repeat myself over and over, and eventually I yell and say things I regret. We also use counting, but it only works because they're scared by the time I get to 4 or 5. How do I stop becoming this parent? So you can go ahead and take the what's underneath.

Well, it's about parents not understanding the developmental science of a child's brain. A child cannot switch on and off within 20 minutes even. They're highly stimulated and they need to Work themselves down. So I always tell parents, use bedtime as this activity. So what that means is all of you, 20 minutes before, instead of saying 1, 2, 3, no. Children embody the change. They're not going to just get it conceptually. They have to embody it. So from, instead of counting down, you put 10 things to sleep in the house. Go around the house and put 10 things to sleep.

Hmm.

Everybody, let's get out the blanket for the teddy bears. Let's get out the blankets for the spoons. You can put a napkin. Let's get out the blanket for the toilet paper. Okay, everybody find 10 things to put to sleep. And then, shh, and let us put off the lights. And let's put, right? That is embodying the transition.

Mm-hmm.

You don't expect them to just go from high stimulation to complete calm and ready to shut down. You have to take them through the journey in their body. And this is the mistake we make as parents. We're talking too much to our children. They, we think they can understand. We think they're logical and A to B to C. They are not. They are not. They are not. Then you lose your temper. But actually the mismatch in expectations is from you to them, not the other way around.

I love that. Transitions are one of the hardest things that we need to do as parents, as caretakers. I was a teacher in the classroom for over 8 years and Transitions become a superpower when you're a teacher. Every 15 minutes you're transitioning into something new, but it's not a skill that just everybody understands. You're literally transitioning your brain from one thing to the next. Kids can't do that on the drop of a dime. And so the idea is for parents that wanna start counting, you might keep counting or doing this counting thing because counting works. And the reason it works is because it They're scared by the time you get to 10.

Right.

But that has, that has an, that has an expiration. That is not going to work in the long run. That's a method that kind of works based on fear. And I think here we want to simply let the kid know what's going on. It's time for bed. It's time for pajamas. Very simply. Don't overcomplicate it. And when they don't move, join in. I love your suggestion about putting things to bed. That is awesome. I think another one is simply like, oh, but they're watching TV. They're not paying attention to me. They're so cozy on the couch. They're not moving. Well, gently take the blanket off, start folding it and have a conversation with them. Turn the TV off, right? We need to guide them and be beside them with transitions. And if you lost it and you yelled, handle that repair later. I shouldn't have yelled at you. It was still time for bed. I need to work better at getting through that hard time of our day. We're going to figure this out together. And I think that that goes a long way. So Dr. Shefali, we have my 7 and 5-year-old can't play together because he insists everything gets built his way, down to which blocks the sister is allowed to touch. Eventually she gives up. I step in and make rules and things get a little better, but the second I walk away, It all falls apart again.

Again, they need help. They cannot, it's not us 2 undeveloped brains to handle each other in a complex way. So they need help, but also they are going to keep being messy. So it's okay. As long as there's no real physical abuse or harm, this is how they're gonna practice how to do it well, but they do need guidance and supervision. What's going on underneath is that The 7-year-old is feeling like he or she is more competent, more in control. So he's, he or she is trying to exercise that dominance over the younger one, but no one is being the evil person. It's really 2 dysregulated nervous systems trying to manage a task together.

In this case, what now? It sounds like the mom is doing stuff. She's trying to walk in, she's trying to make rules, and then she's noticing it unraveling and falling apart. I think the bottom line is this. You wanna keep walking back in and out to these interactions because it's working temporarily. You're like, well, I could get them to a point and then I walk away, it falls apart again. And they can follow rules. That's what that means, right? They're listening, they're following, but they just can't manage them independently yet. Like, like you said, this is a lot that we're putting on them and every time We fix it or we say, here, you do this, you do this. We're taking the practice away from them. And so what are we actually supposed to do? I think in these moments, there's 2 simple rules with sibling play that we need to lay down. I mean, specifically for a block situation, I would say something like, you each control what you build, right? Or something simple like, you can ask. Your sibling or your brother or your sister for a block, but you can't tell someone what they're allowed to do with theirs, right? Sometimes as parents, we start jumping in with lectures and expectations and our values, but we like kind of forgot to draw the line for our kids. What is okay and what is not? It is not okay to do that, but it's okay to do this. Oh, sometimes a kid is like, oh, I didn't even realize I was doing that. Forget about kids. I do that. Sometimes my husband's like, you just did this. I'm like, oh. Oh yeah, you're right. I did do that. Thank you for pointing that out. We need to draw the line. And then from there, the 7-year-old is the older one. So I would give him the words for what he's trying to accomplish. He wants control. So let's make it a positive thing. Can we build it this way? Or can I have that block when you're done? Or do you want to build this one with me? Or do you want to do something on your own? And when we do these things and we give them tools, we're actually empowering them. To maybe try out one of those lines the next time they start disagreeing instead of screaming, mom, right? We need you again. Or hitting each other or throwing each other or throwing a block at somebody's head. And I think this is how we really start to develop those skills to allow ourselves to back away.

Yes, definitely.

This is timely with back-to-school season underway. I tell my kids that we're leaving for school in 5 minutes. I tell them to get their shoes on. 30 seconds later, they are back playing like I never said a word. I spend my entire day repeating myself and getting more and more frustrated. Ah, listening. Why do these things keep happening?

Their brain is very young and they don't have enough practice and their natural work is play. In their mind, they are working hard. They are going to school. It's the school of life. Where they play. So we've created these artificial institutions where children actually don't enjoy, they don't feel stimulated, they feel burdened. And then we wonder why they don't run to get ready for school. Trust me, if it was to an activity that they wanted to go to, they would be out the door.

Yes.

So you have to understand that the setup is such that these children are feeling very stifled and overpressured, and now we're asking them to listen. So what I would just say is understand it's a daily battle. I agree with you. I remember mine. But give yourself enough space as a parent to give yourself that leeway, because when you feel stretched and tight, you are going to snap. They are doing what they're supposed to do. Make the atmosphere less rule-oriented. Now do this, now do that. So many of us get caught in this commander mode, you know, soldier and captain mode.

Mm-hmm.

But children don't respond to that. Children respond to play and challenge and fun. We get so serious because we're so burdened that we take out the fun of it, and children actually respond to fun more than anything.

I love that line. We get so serious because we're burdened. And like you said, with giving space, that's also taking the burden off of ourselves. We're setting our kids and ourselves up to succeed in these moments that are Pretty frustrating. We all know what it feels like. I'm just gonna build on that briefly. We wanna keep yelling for the 5th time across the room, get your shoes. Then we get louder and louder and louder. But that is not a transition strategy. What we need to do is we need to recognize, okay, it's time. Show me, where are your shoes? Right now we're positioning it in a team mentality kind of way. Where was the last place you had your shoes? It's such a different question than Go get your shoes. And I think we all need to soften in that way. I know what it's like to feel like a drill sergeant. It's very easy to fall into those traps when we're stressed. And I think in these moments, we then wanna bring our kids' attention to the steps, the steps, and that we're right there with them. We give them these giant directions like, get out the door for school, but really it's get your shoes, then your backpack, then The door. And even if sometimes we give our kids 3 words, shoes, backpack, door, it's like, whoa, all of a sudden it's like a game. Can you repeat those 3 words? Shoes, backpack, door. All right, awesome. And then 30 seconds later, we're actually making the transition together, which I think is the moment that we all hope for. All right, Dr. Shefali, the exciting announcement is here. Your 2 new books, Raising Conscious Sons and Raising Conscious Daughters. Are going to be available next week officially. I'm very grateful that I got a little sneak peek and that I have access to them, but I'm so excited for everybody in this community to get their hands on these books. I have a couple of questions for you. I'm bursting at the seams with excitement for you. The first question I wanna ask you is, you wrote 2 books at the same time, Raising Conscious Sons and Raising Conscious Daughters. It's very clear that you We're very deliberate that there were 2 separate books here, one for the boys and one for the girls. And so many parents that I work with have a son and a daughter. They're not necessarily suppressing the same things or hoping or dreaming for the same things. And so I'm curious to hear your perspective on that and why this is so important.

Yes, it's so important because I think we've forgotten that it's okay to celebrate our differences, especially when we have children. Uh, with all the rage of the menopause conversation, we older women are realizing that estrogen is a real thing.

Mm-hmm.

And when our estrogen gets depleted, it changes us. Well, in the same way, our girls and boys have estrogen for the girls and testosterone for the boys. And of course it's complex and there's an interplay of many hormones, but there are unique hormonal blueprints and developmental timelines. that occur, and we need to, as parents, pay homage to that. Don't be afraid of the differences and realize that the algorithm is talking to your boys and your girls very differently because the algorithm understands brain science more than the average parent. So if you truly want to connect to your children and you truly want to protect them from the algorithm, you need to know how the algorithm is testing them, seducing them, intoxicating them, addicting them, and then we can provide the antidote. It was a challenge to Convince my publishers that we need 2 books because they were worried that it wouldn't be so progressive. And I said, I'm as progressive as they come, but I'm also a unique lover, a very passionate lover of our differences.

So beautifully said. The second question I have for you is that a lot of the stories in your books are about teenagers. So many parents who are in the thick of it right now with the 4-year-old on the kitchen floor or a 7-year-old who just called them stupid. Can you try and make like a connection as a parent of older children publishing these types of books to parents raising the younger kids have to, or can start kind of building now in an effort to prepare themselves?

Yeah, I think the youngest kid I talk about is 8 or 10 years old, but really, I promise you it's for the 3-year-old to the 28-year-old. The principles are the same. They just may be extra. You know, in your face when they become a teenager. But if you— reason I skewed a little older is because if you see what's coming, then you can work yourself back. You know, it's hard to project into the future, but if you, if you realize that this is what could happen if you do XYZ, then you are like, oh, that's what it could look like. Let me change my track. So the themes are the same and some 3-year-olds have their issues when they're 6. And some 6-year-olds have it when they're 3. So don't get caught up in the chronological age. Get caught up in the developmental themes that I'm expressing here. And the developmental needs and the themes can show up in different ways at different times with your kid, not chronologically.

Okay. That's extremely helpful in the definition of what it means to be attuned. Many questions in my inbox are mostly about the loud kid, right? The one that's hitting or screaming or the slam door. I maybe had one or two clients who spoke to me about the kid who's kind of just fine. And you mentioned in, in your books that sometimes the fine one is the one that's in trouble. So what am I looking for in a kid that isn't the loud one?

It's about knowing who your kid is. Some kids are genuine introverts and dreamers and quiet and shy and And that's absolutely okay. But you need to really be tracking your kid and making sure that you are not overjudging bad behavior. Because if, quote unquote, bad behavior, because if they begin to equate loudness or extra playfulness or extra assertiveness as, oh my goodness, that behavior gets me into trouble, especially if they have older siblings, they will learn through osmosis to stifle themselves, to suppress themselves. So it's really not about anything the kid does. It's about you recognizing who your kid is in their essence and temperament, and then you paying attention to how much you value compliance, civility, obedience. The loud kid is probably feeling safe to be loud.

Mm-hmm.

The loud kid, probably that's just their energy. So we need to just know who our children are. I always say that. And I wrote a book, The Parenting Map, before these 2, and there I lay out the different kinds of temperament your kid may have, how to plug into that temperament, how to honor and celebrate that temperament. So it's really about us knowing our kids well.

I think it's so powerful to say some kids are just like that, and that's okay. And sometimes parents might see that and start to overcorrect, right? What's wrong with you? Why aren't you? Talking to more than one person.

Because if that's genuinely their essence and they're not doing it because they're feeling suppressed, you are going to, in a way, judge them and they're going to feel like something's wrong with me.

Then we start sending that message of you're not enough, right? Because I want you to be more loud or I want you to be like me, but it's picking up on those cues. When do they seem the most happy or the most safe? And I think that's really valuable. So I have another question here. When an 11-year-old gets corrected by her teacher and falls apart, the 11-year-old gets corrected by her teacher, her parents call the school, they switch the teacher, they take the stressor away, and you write that her fragility was cultivated. It wasn't born. She wasn't born like that. You know, what is this mom? Do instead when her kid is genuinely hurting and every instinct in her body is telling her, make this stop. I'm going to do whatever's in my power. What's your recommendation there?

The parent needs to have compassion for themselves. They're coming from a good place. They can't bear to see their child uncomfortable, but really the parent needs to challenge themselves to realize that they can't see themselves uncomfortable. And the child's anxiety is creating anxiety in the parent. I'm not a good parent. Something's wrong with my child. My child won't be a success. And then they step into the child's lane and swoop away all the obstacles, right? So that creates fragility because the child is having a genuine life experience, which should happen and should teach her that she can cope with genuine life experiences. Parent coming there and snowmobiling the obstacles out of the child's way actually creates an artificial reality. a distortion of reality, which makes the child feel they are entitled to a distorted reality, and it never teaches them the coping skills. It just teaches them that when I'm uncomfortable, I can change my reality, which is not true. So the parent is giving them a very false sense of entitlement, comfort, and assurance that, oh, anytime anything is uncomfortable, I can change it. Yes.

And I hear the idea of resilience. Coming through. It's like maybe the mom really wants to build a resilient child, but you're actually doing the complete opposite of that by eliminating problems. And I think that that goes a long way for parents who, like you said, they're uncomfortable seeing their kid uncomfortable. And so they just jump to fix and fix and fix and fix. Whereas diving into this and being like, hey, yeah, life is gonna throw you people. Who correct you, and life will throw people at you who say things that you don't want to hear. So what's one thing that's true, right? I'm always here with you through it, and I'm not going to rescue you from this because you can get through this, and we're going to get to the bottom of this. And I think that goes so much longer of a way in building confidence and resilience than being like, oh, never mind, that didn't happen. Let's just change your class and. We're just going to move on.

Correct. Correct. It really teaches the child that life is too much for them to handle. When you take obstacles away, you're actually giving the message that you are not strong enough. You're not capable. And life is very scary.

I love that because if I post something about connection and love or whatever it might be, it's like too much love and connection is not the thing that is going to prevent our children From becoming resilient.

We're not scared of it. We don't need to, you know, plow it away. We don't need to wish it away. So much effort goes in maneuvering the environment to contort it to meet the child. And we don't need to do all that because we are okay. We can survive this.

Yes. Yes. Life will give you hard things and you can get through it as opposed to you don't have to deal with hard things.

Our life, oh my goodness, life was so unfair. To give you a hard thing. No.

Yep. Yep. Yep. And, and again, going back to the first thing we spoke about, that starts very young. It's not just waiting for the 11-year-old to have a challenging teacher. It's, you were anxious to go on the playground. You were hesitant to do something. Did you rescue them from it or did you do it with them?

Did you get them— Exactly.

You know, proving to themselves that they can do this.

Right, right. And it's so much more important to help them think through it, cope with it, check in with them so you're building a connection, journal, write. There's so many skills you can help them build, but when you take it away, you're not, you're not helping them with any times for the future when this could happen when they're on their own. So you should at this point welcome friction in these children's lives because we've taken out so much friction. So thank goodness something happens where you can practice.

That was literally the thought that went through my mind. It was, I would so much rather you practice this with me while you still have me. Because when your boss says something or your partner says something in the future, and I'm not right there to guide you through it, you're just going to try to escape or you're going to resort to something terrible because you can't handle it.

No. Right.

We want to build our kids to handle things. And I think you do an incredible job at going through that. Dr. Shefali, if you can share just a little final sentiment about your books.

So these are the 2 books for those who are watching the video. It's, one's orange, Raising Conscious Sons, and one's purple, Raising Conscious Daughters. I just want to tell parents that these books give you the blueprint. They prepare you for what's coming. And whether you have a child who's 3 or 23, these books are going to give you perspective. They're going to give you relationship building skills, conflict resolution strategies. And these are my gift to parents to let them know that they don't have to be afraid. They can do this. They have power and they just need to empower their confidence, enter their leadership, and take back parenting into their own, take back childhood into their own hands.

Thank you. And what a gift they truly are. It's very comforting. to know that there are mothers and experts before us that are providing these types of tools and resources. So from the bottom of my very own heart, thank you. Dr. Shefali, a sincere thank you for being here. You are welcome back anytime. And everybody go preorder her books right now, Raising Conscious Daughters and Raising Conscious Sons. The link is available in the show notes. And thank you so much for joining us on The Parent Coaching Chair. Thank you.

Oh, thank you, Julie.

If today gave you a piece of the puzzle and you want the whole thing, my signature course, Mastering High Structure, High Nurture Parenting, is where I teach all of it. Tantrums, hitting, backtalk, sibling fights, homework standoffs, bedtime battles. From the 2-year-old melting down on the kitchen floor to the 12-year-old slamming their bedroom door, it's the same framework I use with my private clients, and it has already changed things in thousands of homes. The link is in the description below. Head there to get started, and I'll meet you back here next week.