When your kid lies straight to your face (and how to stop it from happening)

In today's episode, I talk with a mom who's caught in a painful cycle of lying with her daughter. If you've ever found yourself playing detective, continually lecturing about why lying is not okay, asking questions you already know the answer to, just to be disappointed with a response from your kid that is a blatant lie, this conversation is for you. Welcome to the Parent Coaching Chair podcast. I'm your host, Julie Fragnito, and your partner in parenting. Here, we'll talk with real parents about their real moments. Come along as we grow from each other's experiences and receive practical, high-structure, high-nurture tools that you can use to lead confidently at home. Before we dive in, if you're struggling with something at home right now and wish you could just ask me what to do in the moment, you can. Ask Julie is my 24/7 instant parent coaching service. Send me your situation and get a personalized response Rooted in my high structure, high nurture approach. It's unlimited messages every month. And if you sign up for the year, you get 2 months free. Learn more at transformingparenthood.com.

I have a daughter who is 5 years old. She just completed preschool. We also did summer camp and she just finished last week for summer camp. She'll be starting kindergarten soon. And we've been having some trouble with lying. And a couple of times I've been called after class or when I go to pick her up, the teacher will come out and talk And so she'll say, you know, hey, we had an incident today in class and here's what happened. And so they're not allowed to tell me the kids' names, obviously, but they'll tell me what they found happened. So one was where they said she tackled a kid to the ground in the playground. I was like, what? And so I'm like, okay, that's one. And, you know, they tried to talk to her and she wasn't listening and she kind of was very sassy with the teachers, which is. That's not normally what she does. She's usually pretty good with the teachers, but she was very sassy and she didn't listen to them. So she ran off and she was angry. And so they had to separate her from the group where they don't call it timeout, but they separated her a little bit with some other kids just to give her a chance to calm down. And then I guess in the same day, something else had happened or same, same timeframe, because they all said this was on the playground. So they said she pulled a little girl's hair and So I'm trying to think like, wow, that's, she has never done that before, ever. And, um, they said that it was so bad that the little kid needed an ice pack and they had to call her parents and tell the parents what happened. And I'm like mortified, obviously. And I was like, oh my gosh. Like, okay. So when I picked her up and we went in the car and I had said to her, I was like, I tried not to get her right away about it. Normally I'll say like, hey, so, you know. Anything interesting happen today? You want to, want to give me something like that happened that was really fun or really exciting? And then she'll say, oh, you know, we played and blah, blah, blah. And we had ice cream today. And, and then I'll say, okay, well, she'll tell me about that. And I'll say, well, did something happen that maybe didn't make you so happy or something that was really, you know, bad? Or, and she'll say, no, everything was good, mommy. And I'm like, okay. So I'm like, all right, how do I do this now? So I'm like, okay, well, I know that's not true, but she doesn't know that I know. So. I'll say, well, you know, when I picked you up, the teacher told me that you, um, had to be separated from the group at some point today because you were being a little sassy. Did something happen? No, Mommy, nothing happened. And okay, so this goes on for a few minutes and finally I'm like, okay, well, you know, did you tackle somebody to the ground? Like, did you tackle another boy to the ground, Chris?

Oh yeah.

And I'm like, Well, why didn't you tell me what, what happened? Who, who was it? She'll tell me who it was. And I'm like, who was it? And I'm like, okay. She told me who it was. I'm like, we've had issues with this person before. And I'm like, well, what happened? She goes, well, he had something in his hand that he wasn't supposed to have, and I was telling him to put it down and he wouldn't do it. So I went to go get it and he fell.

Okay.

And I'm like, all right. I don't think she tackled him to the ground. Like they didn't see that that's what happened. They just kind of told me she pushed him to the ground. I'm like, okay, I think maybe it could have been where she was trying to get out of his hand and she kind of accidentally knocked him over. Okay. So that's one thing. And then I'm like, did you pull a little girl's hair? And she'll say no. So first she tells me no, no, I did not. And I'm like, well, I heard that the little girl's parents had to be called because she was crying and she was so upset. You really hurt her. Is that true? Did you do that? Well, yes. Yes, mommy, I did. And I'm like, why did you pull her hair? She's like, I didn't pull her hair. I'm like, well, what did you do? And she said, I was trying to get a spider out of her hair because she was laying down outside on the playground and she had a spider in her hair. So I was trying to get it out. And I'm like, okay. Did you, did you tell anybody that she had a spider in her hair? She's like, no. And I'm like, well, you should not be pulling anybody's hair. I understand you were trying to get the spider out of her hair. Maybe when you were doing that, you were pulling her hair like you didn't mean to, but accidentally you were pulling her hair and it was hurting her. I said, you should have gotten a teacher to help you. I understand you want to help, but sometimes you, you can't touch other kids. Like, it's not your responsibility to touch kids and, and, and, and, and maybe they don't want you to touch them and they don't want your help. So. You should have gotten a teacher and said, hey, so-and-so has a spider in their hair. She needs help. Can you please come help me?

But I didn't pull her hair.

And she's telling me, Dr. I didn't pull her. And she gave me the name of the girl. So now here I am thinking, okay, it's over. I tried to give her more of an explanation of a lesson about how we don't touch people, how we don't— someone's doing something wrong, it's okay for you to tell them to stop, but If they don't stop, that's when you just go and say, "Hey, Mrs. So-and-so, blah blah blah is doing this. I need your help." Or he's not. You know, he's not listening. Can you please? You know, you need to go and get a teacher. Or if somebody has something on them or they need help, you need to go get a teacher and help. So we went through the whole lesson. That was it. I thought it was over. And then I'm saying to myself, "I need to talk to the teacher the next day because I kind of want to like." Give them her side of the story, and so I went to talk to the teacher the other day, and I said, "Hey, this is what happened." Blah blah. And the teacher's like, "That very well could have happened because this is on the playground. We don't see exactly like from beginning to start of the incidents that happened, but you know, um, it still happened, and we have to tell you." And we had to call the kids' parents, the other, the little girl's parents. By the way, that's not the girl who. the incident was with. I'm like, what do you mean? And she's like, no, that's not the girl. It was a different girl. And I'm like, ugh, okay. Okay. So now I look like an idiot.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, I went back home and I was furious with her and I said, you lied to me. And, and by the way, let me back up. I have told her when stuff like this happens, I've tried to have conversations with her and I'll say, cuz this is not the first time this has happened, you know, during the school year things have come up or whatever. And I tell her, I say, listen, I don't care what you did. I want you to tell me everything that you, that happens. I will never, ever be mad at you for telling me what happens. I will, however, get mad if I find out that you lied to me about what happened. I do not want you to lie to me. Do you understand what lying is? Yes. We've gone over this. Yes. Okay. Lying is bad. Because lying can lead to so many things that you can get in trouble for. I said, you cannot lie to mommy and daddy. Do you understand? When you lie to mommy and daddy, how do we trust you? And how do we know the next time that you talk to us that you're actually telling us something that really happened or something that's true? I said, by the way, people will not believe you anymore if they keep catching you in lies. People won't believe you. You have to be truthful. You will never get in trouble for telling the truth, but you will get in trouble for lying. So we've had this conversation multiple times. So here we are, fast forward to this incident, and I've told her, I said, I've told you before that I do not want you to lie to me, that I will get very upset if you lie to me, and you lied to me. So obviously I lost it. I know I wasn't supposed to lose it, but I lost it because now I look like an idiot in front of the teacher.

Mm-hmm.

The second time, and she just doesn't understand. Like, I don't think she cares. I don't know if she cares or doesn't understand the consequences of lying. And I think I just had had it because there were so many different things that had happened before this. And I'm just like, I can't take it. So I kind of lost it and I punished her and I told her like, this is unacceptable and you need some, you need some time to think about what you've done. And I put her in her room. Obviously she had a tantrum and I just let her have it and You know, take toys away. And the teacher was like, oh, maybe you should let her do like, punishment never really works on our end. I find that sometimes when you make them do something that they don't want to do, that that's like more of a kind of like punishment in quotations, like punishment for them. And she's like, make them practice their handwriting, make them practice their letters, numbers, this, that. I'm like, okay, fine, whatever. I'll try it. And so I made her do that. No TV, obviously no screens, which we've been trying to get away from that anyway. So there hasn't been a lot of that this summer. So after all of that, after the, the punishment and the talking and the conversation, 2 days later, I'm in the bathroom. I had, think I'd just taken a shower or whatever, and I'm listening to what's happening in the kitchen and I can hear my husband and my daughter like negotiating and talking and she's crying and yelling and screaming. I'm like, oh my God. So she comes to me and tells, this is terrible. I'm, I'm actually even embarrassed to say it. She came to me, she's like, Mommy, Daddy punched me in the face for no reason. I'm like, what? I'm like, okay, baby, he, Daddy would not punch you in the face. Daddy does not punch you in the face. I'm like, please tell me what happened. What, what's happening? Nothing. We were just talking and I wanted blah, blah, blah. And whatever it was that she wanted, I can't remember. And he wouldn't give it to me and he punched me in the face. I'm like, Here we are again. I'm like, why are you lying? I don't— this is not good. I'm like, this is not good. I don't understand why you're lying to me, honey. You know, she's like, but I'm not lying. And we had the whole conversation again, the whole punishment again. I yelled, I lost it. I know that doesn't work. I know it. You're at your wit's end because you're like, I don't know how else to get through to her with this whole subject because it's not working. It's, it's just not working. And so I lost it and I'm saying to her, we just went through this 2 days ago. How could you do this again to me? You understand that I'm never going to trust what comes out of your mouth if you keep doing this to me. And, you know, she's like, I promise I'm not gonna. I'm like, okay, so fast forward the next day. I'm like, did you lie to me yesterday about what happened with Daddy in the kitchen? Yes, Mommy. Why did you lie? I don't know. I don't know. I'm like, that is not a good reason. You could get into so much trouble. You can get Daddy into so much trouble for lying for something like that. Do you understand how this is really, really serious? You know, I understand you want something and maybe you don't get your way, but that's not a reason for you to lie. You can't lie. Lying is never, ever good. Nothing good will ever come out of lying. We talked again, blah, blah, blah, promises that she's not going to lie anymore. And here I am today because I'm like, I am terrified of kindergarten. Terrified. I need help. Yep.

Thank you. First and foremost, I just want to say that I can understand from your point of view why these moments are so worrisome. You're starting to feel like, how can I trust what my daughter's telling me? This is super scary. And especially when she starts saying things with the gravity that she's saying them with.

Right?

Like she potentially hurt another kid at school whose parents had to be called and she told you it was a different kid. Or even heavier than that, daddy punched me in the face. If she goes and tells a teacher that, we could have a really big issue on our hands. And so I can understand the worry. I can understand how scared you can be to send her off, to be like, how am I just going to send her off if this is not Clicking and this couldn't be worse timing because school is starting and it's embarrassing on top of all of that when it's publicly known, or now you had to put yourself out there and you found out that she actually didn't tell you the truth. Right now, you guys are caught in a vicious cycle. And that's what's happening. Something needs to happen where we can break out of it. And the reason it keeps creeping back is because Nothing is being done to actually teach her internally about the importance of being truthful. A lot of it is coming from lectures and comments and statements, and I'm going to explain to you how those statements and comments and lectures can actually be sending her the wrong message. And before I get to that, I want to tell you that she's 5. We know this. She is not thinking about her integrity, her reputation, her long-term trust. That's not what 5-year-olds do. That's what adults do. That's what parents do. So a 5-year-old is thinking the complete opposite. How do I get out of this moment right now? I don't know what happened before at camp, at school. I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. I don't really care. How do I get out of this right now? And right now, another note is that lying is giving her a ton of your attention.

Why?

Because you're indulging in conversation. Even if you're telling your kid, I can't trust you, and you're yelling at your kid, they're getting your eyes, your ears, your mouth. And when our kids are stuck in vicious cycles of doing quote unquote bad things, If that's all they're gonna get of us, then they'll take it. Let me zoom in specifically to the car situation. She gets in the car. She did something at school. Mom asked a question she already knew the answer to. Is there something you wanna tell me about? Did somebody get hurt? Was somebody crying? When we do this to our kids, all right, and this is the first practical tool that I wanna offer you. I have like— 3 things floating around. This is one of the biggest ones, and we are trying to get a confession out of our kids. Meanwhile, what we're doing is we're just piling on fear and shame, and we're actually forcing them to tell a lie. Let me give you an example. Every human being is born into this earth with this fight or flight ability to protect themselves. We are all animals. Who are built on maybe a long time ago, more so surviving. We still have that instinct. And so what I wanna draw your attention to is, let's say your 3-year-old snuck down to the playroom and colored all over the wall with crayon, and you walked in and you said, what did you do? Or who did this?

Mm-hmm.

Well, any kid, I would pray that any kid, 98%, would say, I don't know. Not, not me.

Why?

Because when we ask a question, we're actually giving them an opportunity, a choice to protect themselves, and they are going to take it. They're gonna try at least. Uh, I don't know. Did something happen at school today? In her mind, she's going, I don't know. What if mom doesn't know about that? I'm not gonna tell her if she doesn't know about that. Nope. Nope. Nothing happened at school today.

Mm-hmm.

You gave her a choice and that turns kids into liars. And so what I want you to try instead is that if you know something, there is absolutely no reason that you should ever keep that from her. Because while you're trying to teach her that you can't trust her, Well, what you're doing is you're actually showing her that she can't trust you either because you knew something and you didn't tell her. So what I want you to do is instead she gets in the car and you say everything. Stop the car, pull over, wait until you get home, hold your breath.

Okay.

Let her have a snack, sit next to her and say, hey. I have something to talk about with you. Are you comfortable? Do you have your water? Do you have your snack? Yep, I have it. She's probably not even thinking about it at that moment. Your teacher called me and state the facts. You pushed somebody on the playground. They got hurt. You also pulled somebody's hair. It hurt so bad that parents had to be called. Can you tell me a little bit more about why? Why did you push? You might say, well, she might just go ahead and lie again. What you've done is you have lowered her guard. What you just did, what happened in her body is saying, phew, mom knows. And there is such power to that.

Mm-hmm.

Just saying something neutrally and curiously and genuinely wanting to help your kid. Tell me what you remember. I was getting a spider out of her hair, mom. Let's say she still lies. Mm-hmm. Hmm.

Interesting.

Maybe that's what you were trying to do. Either way, right? In my head, in my brain, I'd be like, she could be lying. We know she has a tendency to do that cuz she's stuck in a cycle. Probably not the truth, but okay, I'm just gonna ignore that and not harp on it cuz the more attention we give to lies, the worse they get. So what we wanna say is, okay, I don't know what the reason was. However, we never pull somebody's hair. So tell me more. Did she, did she hurt your feelings? Were you bothered? I don't know. Okay, let's say you really wanna pull somebody's hair next time. Then we say, go get the teacher. Same thing with the boy. What happened with the boy? He had something he wasn't supposed to have.

Okay.

Not sure I believe that either. Fine. She opened up about something. Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Neutrally and calmly.

Hmm.

Thank you for telling me. That's the teacher's job. Next time, just get the teacher. You didn't harp on it. You didn't spend so much time telling her that this is bad, we don't do this, letting our fear get in the way. We need to treat it as quickly as the moment that she wishes she could get out of. Because the more we dive in with her and show her that wasn't a big deal, thanks for telling me. Perfect. I'll get the information I need. This was great. And on a positive note, she will come back again. She will be more willing to tell you the truth again.

You know what? I don't know. I just, I guess I've been hearing so many different things about how to approach like this conversation, not this conversation in particular, but like how to talk to kids about You know, I, I was trying to let her open up and tell me, but obviously she's little and she won't tell me. But I guess, I mean, I never thought of it as what you just said, like we're putting our fears onto the kids. So, I mean, I guess that's a good point. I have to keep that in mind.

Yep. And, and you feel like you're allowing her to open up, but really that's not how the psychology works. It's like. Hey, I, I know what happened. Take, take calmness in knowing that I know. What you can give her a choice on is when you're ready to talk about it, let me know and go wash a dish. Stay nearby, but go do something. That's a choice you can give her. You can't withhold information from her that you know about her. Then it actually makes the wall between you even bigger.

Mm-hmm.

Because you're like, is there something you wanna open up to me about? You don't want to tell me anything? Of course not. It's much easier to tell somebody that's like, hey, I know what happened. I don't think you're a bad kid. I know it sounds like it must've been a hard day and I want to talk to you about it. Let me know when you're ready.

Hmm.

Right.

Or give her, or give her an end point. If we don't talk about, if you don't come to me to talk about it by the time dad gets home from work, then we'll sit and talk about it together. But you just let me know. I'll be in the kitchen. Very, very different. We're not pushing her to get a confession. She doesn't need to confess anything to you. You're her mom.

Yeah.

Right. So point number 2, there's this other point in the cycle that I'm noticing in both stories that when she tells you the truth, you get more upset. When she finally admits it, you jump down her throat with a lecture. So let me tell you what I mean by that. The one that's coming to my mind quickly and briefly is the dad punched me in the face one.

Yeah.

The next day you said, so tell me about yesterday. Did Daddy actually punch you in the face? She said, no, Mommy. Oh my gosh. Stop. Hold the phone. Thank you so much for telling me. Oh my gosh. Give me a hug. That is so hard to tell the truth. Thank you. End it. Move on.

Yeah.

What you did was she literally Finally confessed, which we pushing her to do.

And yeah.

And you said, what did you say? Well, we never lie about anything like that. So what we're telling her is, I will never be mad at you for telling the truth. I will be mad at you for lying, but we're not acting that. We're actually mad at her both times. It doesn't change. So she's confused. Of course she doesn't really understand what lying is. She's like, I don't know. You said you're not mad when I'm truthful. You said you're mad when I'm lying, but it just seems like you're mad all the time. So I don't know the difference. And even if you're being cordial and you're being kind and you're being deliberate with your word choice, kids don't know that. They feel our battle. If we go against everything she says with a, you are wrong, well, that's, that's a power struggle. Yes, mom. Yeah, I was lying. He didn't punch me in the face. Well, we don't do that. Well, I guess I'm not gonna tell the truth anymore. What we wanna say is thank you and end it. You can have a lecture later, but right now everything is getting so caught up in the same moment that we need to give it a little more space so that she could Feel the truth being positive. The second she feels the truth, I want her to feel your intensity come down. I want her to hear you get quiet. I want her to understand that telling the truth works for bringing me closer to mom. Thank you for telling me. I needed to hear that from you. All right, go play.

Yeah.

And I have some other thoughts, but I'll tell you them later. Give her a kiss. Just move on. You don't have to reward the behavior, right? The lying to reward her honesty. They are 2 different things. The honesty gets warmth and less talking every time. Yes, mom, I pushed a boy on the playground. It was a mistake. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for telling me. Sometimes I have bad days too. Let me think on this and I'll let you know when I have some more things to talk about.

Mm-hmm.

Thank you for telling me. Give me a big hug. Done. You need to rewire her brain to show her that telling the truth always wins.

See, that has to do with me. I have to learn how to control myself because I'm just so angry about the fact that it just keeps happening. And I guess I, I get so worked up inside and I have to control myself so that it— you're right. Like, I want her to be able to come to me because right now these are little things, right? I mean, not the punching of the face, but I mean, like later on it becomes bigger things and bigger issues and I want her to be able to come to me. And so you're right. Like I really need to learn how to control my emotions because she reads 'em obviously. And she hears 'em obviously. And so I have to work on rewiring my brain.

Yeah.

So yeah.

And you are not alone. And I admire the way that you're able to make that connection. What I call it is our audition. We are just auditioning for our kids and we're the auditionees. Do you get the part? Are you going to get the part? Are you going to be the person that they come to when they actually have a problem in high school and somebody offers them something that they're not supposed to have, or a friend really hurts them, or a boyfriend does something? Are you going to be the one? Right? This is your audition. Let me move into the third, the third thing. Make lying really boring. Right now, lying is so interesting. Lying gets more questions. It gets mom to be a detective. It gets your attention. It gets big emotions. It gets dad involved. It gets lectures. It gets consequences like taking away TV and making her do handwriting. None of this is connected to lying. It's just an enormous amount of energy. Around lying. And so, okay, what we need to understand is that this doesn't mean that she's intentionally lying to get attention, but we wanna be really careful about what we're reinforcing. So if she lies straight to your face, because you and me know that when we hang up this call, she is gonna do it again. This isn't gonna miraculously fix everything. She will lie to you again. And so when she does, hmm. That is not matching what I understood. You could try again to tell me when you're ready. Walk away. Walk away. Don't sit there and dive in. Daddy punched me in the face. Dad, did you do that? Did you punch her in the face? No, I didn't. Ooh, that's pretty serious. I wonder why she would say something like that.

Hmm. Mm-hmm.

When you guys are ready to talk, just let me know. Walk away. You are choosing not to argue about it. Instead, you're just saying, here's what I know. I know Daddy loves you very much. I know that's a really serious thing to say, and I wanna believe you if anyone ever did that to you. So we can't joke about that, but I'm curious to know why you said it. Let me know when you're ready. Bye. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Okay.

Now what you need to do when she says, ooh, Mom walked away. I want Mommy back. Where'd Mommy go? Oh, I'm gonna go follow her and see where she went. And she says, Mommy, Daddy didn't really punch me in the face. Oh my gosh, thank you so much for coming back to fix your story. High five for honesty. Make a sticker chart for being honest. Don't make more consequences for lying. Pour more attention into honesty. You thought, hey, I just want to draw to your attention, sweetie pie, you thought that I would be upset. upset when you told me that, right? But you told me anyway. Thank you so much. Done. That's it. Don't say another thing.

What if she doesn't come and tell you? Like, what if she just forgets about it and doesn't ever bring it up?

Let's say. Then we have a conversation with daddy. We sit at the table and we say, hey, I spoke with dad. You haven't shared any more of your side of the story, so I'm not really sure what you experienced, but That's not how this went. And that's a really serious thing to say that we don't ever, ever, ever say.

Mm-hmm.

Just take it by the moment. Take it by each instance and don't overdo it. What's silently building her ability to be honest underneath is every time when she is honest that you praise her for it and pour attention into it and, and don't lecture her when she is.

Okay.

Just say thank you. Go keep a notepad, right? Or write it in your notes on your, on your iPhone, what you wanna say to her, but just don't say it then. Let's say you wanna handle it this way too. You could do this. Daddy punched me. Oh my gosh. Tell me what happened. Sit down on the bed. Sit down wherever she is. Tell, tell me what happened. You wanna be the person she trusts. Well, show her you trust her, even if you know you're being played for a fool. Get curious first. Because why? If someone actually does punch her in the face, don't you want her to tell you? So show her how you're gonna respond. Tell me what happened.

Cool.

Daddy, do you wanna talk first or do you want her to talk first? I need to know the story. This is very serious. Maybe by seeing her see how serious you are, she's gonna be like, huh, just kidding, mom. Just kidding. That didn't really happen. Because why? Because that's a serious thing to say. And so, oh, okay. Daddy's hand accidentally brushed past your face, or, oh, you guys were playing, or, oh, that never happened. Okay. Okay. Let's make sure that we retell stories accurately, cuz that's a really serious thing. Done. Bye, mom. Don't say another word. Don't give her a lecture about if somebody punches you one day, that's really serious and we don't ever lie. Now I don't trust you and now daddy doesn't trust you. And now, don't. Just take it by the moment. Next time, I need to know what happened accurately so that I could help you. Okay?

Love you.

Bye.

Remember, she's 5. She needs to learn how to tell an accurate story rather than turning every exaggeration into an issue with her character. We don't want her to think that she is bad. There is nothing wrong with her character. It's not, uh, you behaved badly, now you need to learn, or I'm gonna make you do something you hate. Those are not ways of leading. What we wanna do is say the facts. Other people's bodies and belongings are not yours to control. Let's practice. Pretend I have something I'm not supposed to have. What do you do? Get the teacher. Good job. Yes. Now we're practicing outside the moment. When nobody's upset. Someone has something in their hair. Let's pretend. Ooh, I have a spider in my hair. Oh no.

Oh no.

What do you do? Go get the teacher. Good job. Someone makes you really, really mad and you just wanna push them. What are we supposed to do instead? Teach her what to do instead. Not don't hit. Instead, ooh, that bothers me. Or let's say the kid she pushed was bugging her. Teach her how to stand up for herself. I don't like that. And if she doesn't get the space she wants, go get a teacher. That's, that's where we should be spending our time teaching her in making her practice. But later.

This is, I mean, this is all very helpful because I was brought up in an old school Italian family. And so very much different approach to punishing and conversations or lack of conversation. So. This is all very, you know, different. And I feel like today there's so many different pressures that we have to deal with and different ways to deal with these things. So, I mean, you've given me a new perspective on how a 5-year-old thinks. So I think this is a much better tool. I will definitely try this and see what happens. And yeah, I mean, this is good. I've never really thought of it that way that you That you just said. So I will definitely use that going forward and learn how to control myself more. Yeah.

I, I really appreciate your honesty and how genuine you are. Aside from your daughter and her honesty, thank you for yours, right? It's not easy to come onto these calls and say, this is what's going on with my kid. I'm going to lose my mind. What am I supposed to do? This takes a lot of bravery and hard work to be like, oh my gosh, I feel like I'm failing. And so I think that's one of the beautiful parts is that she has a mom who is willing to have these conversations. And so you have a sense of humility. You have an open mind to be like, help me see this differently. And so that's only gonna benefit your relationship with her if you could bring that same energy to what she sees in you. And I think that'll go a long way.

Yeah. I mean, cuz you know, at the end of the night, there's a lot of guilt of how I handle things. You do feel like you're failing, you're failing in general, but then you feel like you're failing her as well. So it's, it's a lot of guilt of like, how could I have done this better? What do I do? How do I change this? Because I don't want this to continue and to keep going down this same path. And it seems like everything you try is not working, but you know, when you have like someone like yourself that gives you a different perspective, it kind of makes more sense. Thank you so much, Julie. Thank you.

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