6 Most LGBTQ+ Proud Moments | KARAMO

My son was a Black man, and not just a Black man, but now a Black gay man. I knew what society would do to him. I'm having trouble loving myself. I love you, and I'm sorry. A lot happened when I was 13. When I was 13, I actually was outed by a family member of mine.

Yeah.

We were sitting at a dinner table and this person found explicit content on my computer. I was 13 and exploring, you know, the world, let's call it. And then this person took my computer, turned it around to my whole family, and that's how I was forced out.

And how did your mom react to that moment?

She seemed shocked. Everybody seemed shocked. But what happened was she then kind of brought me outside and I felt started berating me. Like, and when I say that, I mean asking a lot of questions that at 13 you're not prepared to answer. And I feel that if I was straight and this same thing happened, you know, people say things all the time, oh, give kids magazines and all this sort of stuff. And I feel like it was because I was gay, not because of the content that this became such a big deal and such an eruption. It kind of was the first time I felt unprotected by my mom in this whole thing. And I feel like as adults, you have the ability to take these situations and reframe the shame is maybe how I would describe it. And it really, you know, that was the beginning of a series of events that left me feeling that same way.

Was your relationship with your mom good before that?

Yeah, me and my mom were like best of friends. My father died when I was 3. So it was really me and my mom that were left with each other. I feel like it completely reframed our relationship because a lot of what happened afterwards, Sometimes like the name calling and some of the other things that would happen really just left me feeling like parentless sometimes.

Mm, got it. And what was it like living in the house afterwards after this moment?

Yeah, it was difficult because I feel like my mom harbored a lot of resentment towards me. And so the way it enacted itself was me feeling very isolated and alone. And then I think it just, again, it kind of went on. I was, I actually, when I went to college for my, the first week I was in college, I was actually sexually assaulted while I was there. So, you know, then my mom— I'm so sorry. You know, I would say it gets better, but you know, it's always something that sticks with you. But when that happened and I was thinking of who to call, I actually called my aunt and I didn't call my mom because I felt like she would again blame this, you know, these tropes of gay men as promiscuous and like that kind of mentality.

Do you feel like she resents you?

I think my mom mourns a version of our life that she wishes she would have.

So how did you cope with this isolation in that time?

I, you know, some people turn to all kinds of things. For me, it was really turning to school. I went to Brown, I went to Harvard, I worked on Wall Street. I did all these things. So it— Thank you. Thank you. But for me, you know— You single?

'Cause I got a couple homeboys I can hook you up with.

Okay? That's all the stuff that happened. But for me, that comes with a lot of hurt because that was my reaction to feeling like I was so alone. It was trying to overcompensate in these other ways because when it was scholastic achievement, everything was great. My mom would be happy. You know, when I graduated, I was going to Brown. Big celebration party, but it's always about those things. And it always loops back to this idea of like my mom being this great mom and all these accomplishments, and then it just minimizes my experience, which was really a flawed childhood. Yeah. In a lot of ways.

Listen, you preaching to the choir. Why you think I got a talk show?

Sorry.

I tell people all the time, people are like, what propels you? I'm like trauma. Yeah, trauma. Let me tell you, you have a daddy who only applauds you when you successful, you gonna find out how to be successful because you're searching for that love. You know, we can joke about it now because we made it, but we've all done that. We respond to like the love we didn't get in a certain way. And I'm like, for me it was the same thing. I was like, oh, so you don't wanna acknowledge me being gay. You don't wanna acknowledge these things I'm going through. But you do acknowledge when I get a good grade or when I achieve or when something goes well. So let me keep achieving to make me feel like I'm getting the love that I should have just gotten unconditionally. So I understand that. I get that.

Thank you for validating that.

Yeah, I get it. I understand it.

You're welcome.

So what do you need from your mom today?

I need my mom to stop focusing on making herself feel better about the mother she was and focus on validating and affirming my feelings and where I stand so I can heal. Because I feel like what happens is every time we engage in these conversations, it flips to, well, I was crying too, I was sad too, I was this too. And sometimes I talk to my mom about this concept of like emotional immaturity, which is a very new term that I've kind of started. But it's like my mom's inability to just accept and stand in who she was limits her from validating who I am and where I am and what happened to me, you know?

Got it. Well, thank you for being clear about that. Let's hear what your mother has to say about this. So everyone, please welcome TJ to the show. Hi, TJ. You looks absolutely beautiful.

How are you doing? It's a pleasure to meet you.

Nice to meet you as well.

I'm doing okay. Yeah, I'm doing okay. Awesome.

So how do you feel about what was said?

Whew, where do I start?

Yes.

Okay, so when I had just came home from work and his brother and his family were at the house, we were in the process of getting ready to celebrate Dakota's 13th birthday. As soon as I walked in the house, The computer was turned around and it was gay porn. I was shocked. I wasn't prepared for that. And then too, in all honesty, I'm a baby boomer. That's not what we did. You know, if it was, then it was talked about behind closed doors. You know, that wasn't something that we just openly, you know, my parents didn't accept it. It was just shocking. And so, I didn't really know what to do. I couldn't stop crying because what I knew was that my son was a Black man and not just a Black man, but now a Black gay man. I knew what society would do to him. Just eat him up and spit him out. I don't have a problem with sexuality. It's just that I don't want it for him. You are entitled to feel that way. I feel how you feel and your feelings are valid for you and I accept that. My difficulty is that we're having a conversation about, we're here to talk about these elements, right? And it always shifts back to me, me, me, me, me with my mom. I felt this way. What did I experience? I didn't know this, I didn't know that. And she said the world was gonna chew you up and spit you out. And look at me today. It didn't. So can you just accept that maybe you had the wrong view and validate that that— I accept it, I own it, and I hear what you're saying and I apologize. And I've been apologizing for years.

Do you think he's forgiven you?

No. You flipped our parent-child relationship on its head when you said the things you said to me when I was that age.

What did your mother say to you?

Well, let's just say I raised you to be a man and not gay. I'll just say, you know, let's just, I'll put it like that.

Was she saying the F word?

It wasn't the F word, but variations, you know, these, You know, this is, you know, these sort of things, they sting you. I apologize. I accept that, but you've said you apologize for that before too, but then still sit here and say, well, I can't imagine ever talking to my mom like this. Well, it's not a normal parent-child dynamic. Not to mention that because you were a single mom, I had to take on a lot more as a child. And so our whole relationship is more of a partnership than a parentship is what I would say.

Do you feel like it's more of a partnership?

Well, when his dad passed at 3, I told him, I said, "We're partners." I said, "And let me tell you why we're partners." I said, "Because what I need you to do is I need you to empower your brain." I didn't want him going down the same path his dad went down. So my whole thing was to throw everything I had behind him so that he could be intelligent, smart, exposing him to everything I could in the world.

Do you feel like you treated him differently?

I did. I own that, I did. Dakota, in my opinion, he robbed me of a daughter-in-law that I could torture, that I could literally torture. That is— I know, I know, but that's just how I am, Dakota. I'm just being honest with you. And I told you that he robbed me of a daughter-in-law, of the typical, the typical family, you know, grandkids. And I know he said he's gonna have grandkids and God knows I can't wait. You already make my family that's from the future for me feel like it's less than. No, Dakota. It does. Dakota, it's not less than. Dakota, it's not less than. That is hurtful. No, it's not. Because you're saying, Robyn, I know that it's minimizing and I am whole.

I will have a family that is whole.

Nothing about me or the family that I have is anything less than some idea that you have in your mind about what it should be. Dakota, I apologize. I can't apologize. You keep apologizing and you keep saying the same stuff, so what is the point of apologizing? What is the point of apologizing? Because I just want us to move forward. That's all I want. I just want us to move forward. It's really hard to move forward with the things that you say. It's really hard to move forward.

Do you understand how the words that you're saying, why they're triggering him and hurting him?

I do.

Okay, so from your perspective, why do you think you're saying that? 'Cause I wanna know.

That's what I've always said. It's not that I'm trying to trigger him or hurt him, 'cause I'm not. I'm not trying to do that. But it's just the way I was raised and what I know. Yeah. It's not, you know, when you don't know what you don't know. You know, I never even heard of emotional immaturity. I never even heard of some of these terms until Reese. I'm like, what the heck is that? Hell, you know? I think it's important that we come here and the reason why we're here is because I think, I don't feel like you're alone. I think there are other kids and families out there with the same exact issues. I think it's just not talked about a lot. It's a lot to come talk about this here.

No, I appreciate both of your braveries because the truth of the matter is, is that it is. There's two different generations that we're looking at here who are speaking and saying that we love each other and we wanna support each other. But there's a generation that didn't have the knowledge that many of us have. Absolutely.

Absolutely.

TJ, I want you to get this. I'm gonna use the language you've said back to you so you can understand it. That when you say things to him, it robs him of his emotions, it robs him of his dreams. Do you see that? Because like you saying like—

I do now.

You do now. Because like I understand and I get that.

Not just today, I'm talking about maybe a couple of weeks ago.

Got it, you starting to get it.

I started getting it.

Yeah, I got it. Because the thing is, is that, and I appreciate you expressing that point, for me and I understand how it triggered you and I understand what you're saying you need to your mom. You need her to, I want you to tell her just clearly one more time what you need.

I need you to stop trying to reframe your motherhood in my adolescence and puberty times, accept that it was flawed and stop trying to make excuses for it and for yourself. In this active journey towards us moving forward. Moments like what just happened put us back. They take us back.

So can you do that? Can you?

I can.

You can. So from now on, the past, no more like, I'm gonna justify, I'm gonna explain. I'm just gonna acknowledge it was not right.

I can definitely do that.

Okay.

I can definitely, because I'm here to move forward, not to go back.

Yeah.

Same.

I gotta tell you something though.

Same.

Yeah. I gotta, hold on, I gotta tell you something though. Amidst the hurt, which is very valid, I have to acknowledge you actually have a mother who's actually trying to grow.

Agreed.

And one of the things that I think when it comes to this generation, different generations, is that we want them to grow at our pace. We don't realize that she has to grow at her pace.

Absolutely.

And I think one of the things that as she's making this commitment, I would ask you to make a commitment to give her a little more grace in her growth.

I receive that. I'll do that. Thanks. I receive that.

Listen, I hope you feel heard. I do. Do you feel as if this was a first step in y'all getting somewhere?

I absolutely do. And I thank you for it.

Yeah, you're welcome. Do you feel good?

Absolutely.

Thank you, sir. I wish y'all the best of luck. There's a lot of love here. You're welcome. I know I made mistakes in the past, but I love my kids. When they were young, we was happy. But when I got incarcerated, everything had changed.

I blame myself because I should have been there. But I also blame Bri. My kids don't call me, check on me.

I didn't even know Makayla was even pregnant. I just feel hurt and I just want everything to come back together. I'm 51 years old and I want my family back. Well, before I talk to Leighton, I'm going to talk to his daughter, Ariana. Please everyone, welcome Ariana to the show. Oh, stunning. Oh, she's stunning.

How are you?

Hi, Karamo. Nice to meet you. Hold on.

Hello.

I didn't know we had a supermodel coming out today. You look gorgeous.

Thank you. You really do.

Okay, so I just saw that video for the first time of your father. How do you feel about what you just saw?

If we gonna come on here, let's be like, let's come correct. We're all grown. So to blame other people for like stuff that you did as a man, as a father is just like.

So what did he do that's causing him to feel like he's lost his family? Or in your opinion, what did he do to lose his family?

Well, for one, I mean, he's never really been in my life. The only, Memories that I have of my father is traumatic experiences.

Got it.

And so I'm transgender and I don't really know how he feels about it, but it's wishy-washy. It's like, I want my family back, but at the same time, you need to acknowledge me as your daughter. I'm not your son.

Yes. So does he still interact with you as if you were his son? He doesn't respect your transition?

Well, to my mom, he still refers to me as his son.

How does that make you feel knowing that your father is still not in a space to respect you?

It hurts my feelings because it's like I fought so hard to be here and I've been through a lot. I feel hurt that I can't have my mother and my father.

When was the last time you saw Leighton?

I saw him at my sister's graduation.

Okay, and what was that like?

Not my graduation, my sister's graduation. Guess he want his son back, but he's dead and gone, so.

Yes, yes. So what was it like when you saw Leighton at your sister's graduation?

At your graduation? It was, I felt like he was just another person off the street. So why would I?

So did you ever have that bond like at all?

No.

So why do you think in his mind does it feel he thinks that you all had that relationship? Because I'm watching the video the same way you did and it sounds like, hey, I'm a dad, I wanna be there and like all these things. But I'm hearing something different from you.

I mean, maybe when I was younger and he had his son, like, but I can't recall a time where it was like, "Yeah, my dad." I just remember the bad memories. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. What were those bad memories?

Well, I could recall him coming home being drunk and taking it out on me physically and emotionally and stuff.

I'm sorry.

Thank you.

Very sorry. I'm sorry. And so at the graduation when you saw your father, Did you two speak? What happened?

Well, he came up to me and his first words were, "You can't speak to nobody." And it's like, that's how you approach people? Like if you're so, "I want my family back and my child, my child." Hi, how are you? How you been? What's up with you? What's going on in life?

Does your sister Makayla have the same relationship with your father?

I think he wants to be in her life. Like I think that's like his little girl. So I think for her it's just like, dude, we don't—

Does she wanna be in his life?

I can't speak for her. I don't know.

Got it. Okay. Everyone, please welcome Leighton to my show. How you doing, Leighton?

Good.

All right, please take a seat for me.

What's going on?

All right, Leighton, so you want your family back. What do you mean by that? What I mean by that is, I mean, talk to them and everything. I don't talk to them. So what's your response to what you heard Ariana say? I mean, it hurts. Why does it hurt?

'Cause they my kid. That's my blood.

I mean, I watched them grow up. I mean, I wasn't there all the time. No, I wasn't. I blame myself for that. So tell me, how did you feel when you saw Aryana at Mikaela's graduation? I mean, it hurt because it's like, looked at me like I wasn't daddy. Like didn't talk to me nothing like that.

Mm-hmm. But what did you expect me to say? Like the way your approach is everything. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. We haven't seen each other in how long? We don't talk to each other, we don't call each other. So what were you expecting?

But I mean, but that's not my, I'm not blamed for all that though. Us not talking to each other. I tried to call.

The phone go both ways.

I tried to call. Every time I try to call, I don't get no answer or nothing like that. So that made me to just stop calling. Lane, I got a question for you. Ariana said that when you saw her prom picture, you deleted it off of Facebook. Can you tell me about that and why? Deleted it? Yeah. I ain't delete no pictures. You didn't delete the photo. So I wanna ask you point blank, do you accept Aryana as your daughter? Yeah, I do.

She could be a dinosaur, whatever.

I still, that's my child. That's mine. The fact that you said, "Aryana, I do accept you as my daughter," and she says she doesn't know if she can believe you, which that's her experience. But she also just said that your ex-wife, has also shared with her that you still refer to her as a boy. How do you respond to that? That's not true. I mean, if that's the case, I would call him Isaiah. I call her Ariana. That's what I call her.

Ariana. Ariana.

You taking everything as a joke right now.

That's what's making me mad. That's my name. That's my legal name.

That's what's making me mad right now. You got everybody laughing. Why are you pissing me off, bro?

Because I'm funny? The hell, man.

Layton, what do you wanna say to her? Right now, I don't even know what I wanna say.

But what are you frustrated about? I'm confused. I didn't sit here and call you a liar. I didn't say nothing derogatory to you. I'm respecting you. Like, I'm confused.

What is frustrating you? Because I'm giving you, I don't know if you noticed, I wanna make sure you're having an opportunity to share your point. It's just, I mean, Like I said, I just don't feel like I'm getting respected as a father.

I just remember you coming home drunk and I don't know what will be going on with you, but you would take it out on me.

Ariana's little sister, Mikayla, is also here and she sees things very different than her father. Mikayla, please come on out.

Hi.

Give me a hug. Nice to meet you.

You too. Yes.

All right, so I see you just walked past your father. So I'm assuming that you don't have a good relationship.

There's not really much of a relationship there. I mean, I don't really feel like I have a father. Yeah.

Why?

He was never around.

So did you want a relationship with your father?

I would be open to it, But there's boundaries and things that I want from you. I want you to respect my sister as Ariana. I want you to respect my mother. And you don't do that.

How come I don't do that though?

So you don't be calling her Isaiah still? He claims that he never did that and he never deleted the prom picture. He never called me Isaiah. He doesn't recall that, so.

I mean, at the beginning I probably, I mean, I called you Isaiah because I wasn't used to calling you Ariana.

Ariana?

I can't do this, man.

On my life, I can't do this.

I'm done.

Okay, well, you haven't been doing it for how many long, so continue.

Oh, well.

Keep it up. Now it's oh, well.

Oh, well, go on. You doing it like that.

Look at me, I'm doing fine.

Because the way you talking to me. I'm good.

I've been good on TV my whole life. I've been good. Do you see me?

I'm gonna ask you, Makayla, you were just pregnant. You had a child, right?

Yes.

Did you tell your father about your child?

No.

Why?

What would I be telling you for? I just don't feel like that was something that you needed to know. I mean, if you were present, if you were around, yeah, you would've known about it, but who needed to know knew.

How do you feel that you have never met your grandchild? I mean, it hurts. I mean, it just hurts. Layton, when did you find out that Makayla had a child? My brother told me. Is this your first grandchild? Yep.

But can I ask why you felt like you needed to know?

'Cause you my daughter.

But if I'm your daughter, then why aren't you around?

I'm in a different state and I try to be around, I try to call.

I'll give you that. You call and we don't answer. I don't answer. I mean, because the times I have picked up the phone, you, Blame everyone else but yourself.

How do I blame anybody else?

You blame my mom, you blame me, you blame Mariana.

All right, joining us now is Bree. She met Leighton when she was a teenager and they got married. She's telling her side of the story with hopes that Leighton will finally listen to her and their daughters. Welcome everyone, Bree, to the show. How you doing today?

Hi, Nate, how are you? Thanks for coming to the show.

Yeah, please take a seat. So I'm hearing a lot of confusion on Leighton's part. What was your experience?

Leighton just was not there. Whether he was physically in our home, he was not mentally, emotionally available for me, for them. But he puts a lot of the blame on me and I'm not the one to blame. Like I was there, I stepped up to the plate to fill your shoes and my shoes.

How was y'all's marriage when y'all were together?

Non-existent. It's a piece of paper.

So why are y'all still legally married?

Why?

Why?

Leighton has made it perfectly clear on several occasions that I'll always be his wife. He's, "Oh, I'll never divorce you." And I've tried. Just not for lack of effort. I have tried, like.

Right.

I just don't remember.

All right, so Layton.

Yeah.

So I wanna hear your perspective because I'm hearing a constant from 3 people and I'm not trying to say that you're lying, but there's an inconsistency with what you're experiencing and what 3 different people are experiencing. They're all saying they experienced the same thing. You were not there. You were emotionally unavailable. You were physically unavailable. You just were not there. So they don't know you. They don't have a relationship with you. Listen here, I got it perfectly clear now. I know for sure now, trust me. So what do you wanna do to rectify that? Because you said you want your family back. Can you look at your family and say, "I'm sorry"? I'm sorry and I apologize.

If we gonna do anything today on this stage, please be for real.

He just said, "I'm sorry and I apologize." What do you want? Tell him.

Me personally, I want you to understand how you made me feel. If you are going to be in our lives and try to make a relationship, you need to prove your acceptance of Ariana and not be calling her Isaiah and referring to her as your son. And just stop blaming everybody else.

And Bree, what do you need?

To piggyback off of Makayla, I just need you to accept that, or just respect the fact that you have two beautiful daughters. You know, for me as a mother, like I adore her. I have the utmost respect for her and I just wish everybody would. And I get that it's not for everybody, but that's your child. That's your daughter. And I know that.

And I accept it. And I accept it.

She's living her truth and I respect it.

I respect your answer.

But you don't show me you respect it.

Leighton, I do believe honestly Honestly, from today, and I will say this, I didn't know anything about you beforehand. I didn't know who you were. I didn't know how you were gonna react out here. I truly do believe in my heart of hearts and in my professional opinion that you wanna do better and wanna be here for your children. I do. I truly do believe that. But I believe that it's also very hard for you to hear all of these things and the pain you caused. Yes, yes it is, it is. It can feel like this is a never-ending cycle where you're always the bad guy. But the truth of the matter is, is that you won't always be the bad guy if you do one thing, and that's just own anything they say. The thing of the matter is you've already started doing that right now. You've already said, "I accept you as my daughter. I'm sorry that I wasn't here for you. I'm sorry that I did this." But what they're telling you is that it's not enough. So what you have to do right now is you have to tell your family that I'm willing to go on the journey of taking however long you all need to heal. I could be here, I could wait for y'all to gimme time. I mean, just forgive me. I apologize. It hurts me and everything and I know it hurts y'all and I'm sorry. I think that's a big step. He clearly is letting y'all know he's not perfect. So if he's saying I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you gotta give him a chance to believe him. If he says, I accept you, you gotta give him a chance to believe you. And if he does something different, call him out. And that's the way y'all gonna heal. I actually wanna see y'all be well.

I truly do.

Because I'm gonna tell you right now, you got a beautiful family. So I believe y'all can heal. I believe y'all can be a family together. You've taken a very big step today and I honor you for that. Now's the time for y'all to do the work as a family. Why do you wanna unlock Ari's phone?

It's not why, it's 'cause it's always on do not disturb, you know what I'm saying? I've known her for like 5 years. So within the 5 years, you know what I'm saying, the phone haven't been on do not disturb. And if y'all know why the phone go on do not disturb, it's because you're hiding something, you know what I'm saying? It's not like you at work. If you at work, your phone could go on do not disturb. But when you with me, why is your phone on do not disturb?

Makes sense. Maybe to play devil's advocate, Is there a way that maybe she just wants to show you that she wants to be with you, that she wants to share time with you?

No, absolutely not. It's not about that. Absolutely not.

I'm just playing devil's advocate, trying to get both sides. You know, so you feel like there's something suspicious.

It's something suspicious or either you're hiding something.

Got it. Has she cheated on you before in the past?

Absolutely. Multiple times.

Okay. So when did you first start noticing her cheating on you?

It's not when I first, it's actually I caught it and actually she told me. But let me put y'all on, she's not gay. She's not with the LGB community. She's a straight woman and she grew up in a Christian home.

Does she identify as a straight woman?

Yes, she does.

So she says, even though she's been in a 5-year relationship with you, she still says, I am straight.

Yes, 'cause I'm the only female she been with.

Okay, but why not identify as bi? Why not identify as?

I say that, but then I also say, 'cause you know the LGBT community, you can't say that you're bi She don't go, when she cheats, she don't go to a female, she goes to a man. So I say, don't call yourself bi, you're straight. You know what I'm saying? 'Cause when you cheat, you don't go to a female. If I would cheat, I'm going to a female. I like females, I don't like men. I will go to a female. She goes straight to men, not a female.

So you're telling her to call herself straight? That's what you just said. You just said, I'm telling her to call herself straight.

Yes. Okay. Yes.

So when did you start noticing red flags in a relationship?

We've been together for 5 years. She asked me out 2 days after I met her. 2 days after that, she comes to my face and tells me, "I'm about to go with my ex," and walk straight out the house.

What do you think happened between her and a TikTok follower?

What I think? I know what happened.

Okay, what happened?

Tell me. I'm gonna tell you this story. So how I found out was we had a hotel party with a group of friends. We get drunk. And you know, we get drunk, everybody fall out. I don't really care, it's my time to lurk. You know what I'm saying? It's my time to lurk. She been acting funny and junk. She was acting too sweet that night. And the thing is, we played a game, truth or dare game. One of the questions was, Ari, unlock your phone and let's see your text messages. She ain't unlock it. She took 3 shots to the face and she ain't wanna unlock it. So yeah, she went to sleep. I unlocked that phone, but first before I unlocked it, I'm on my phone, her phone was like, it was on do not disturb. So I went to my phone and I went through Facebook, TikTok, Snapchat, and I just went through all her followers and stuff. So then I go to her phone, I take do not disturb off. And y'all know once y'all take do not disturb off, all the messages pop up. I see somebody named Poppy Chulo.

Not Poppy Chulo.

My name not Poppy Chulo.

Okay, not Poppy Chulo.

My name is not Poppy Chulo.

Okay, yeah.

What's your name now? My name is Nas. My name not Papi Chulo, so I was confused, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

So, hey Siri, the phone locked, but you can ask Siri to FaceTime. The same person that popped up from her TikTok followers is the same man that is on this phone right now as we speak. And he's just telling it all. Like, he's telling it all. I'm like, yo, if this your girl, you gotta come get her, you gotta come get her, bro. Like, you really gotta come get her. So then—

You reacted that calmly when you was on the phone with Papi Chulo?

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. So then I wake, so then she wakes up an hour later and I already took a picture of him, you know what I'm saying? So I asked her and I show him like, yo, you know him?

No.

You did anything with him? No. Why you going through my phone? How you know he in your phone though if you don't know him?

You know what I'm saying?

We had a big argument about that and that was like, broke us off. That broke us off until a couple months later I just asked her out.

So why do you say that Ari doesn't claim you?

She doesn't claim me because, lemme show you. I'm about to show you.

Not single. S-I-N-G-L-E. Is this on her social media right now?

Yes, yes it is. Yes it is, sir.

So currently she says—

And mind you, I'm blocked off of there.

She's blocked you from social media?

Yes, sir. I'm blocked. Yes, sir.

When did you all get back together?

17 days ago.

17 days ago?

Yeah.

And it still says single?

Yes, sir.

Okay. Well, listen everyone, I wanna hear what Ari thinks about all of this situation. So everyone, welcome Ari to the show. Have you cheated on us?

Yes.

Okay.

It was one time we first started dating and I wasn't gay. And by the way, I'm bi. You can't tell me what I am or not. So you dated multiple females? It don't matter if I date men or a female or not. I am bi. That's not— You can't be bisexual, bro. You don't like females. How you gonna tell me what I should be? But you don't like females, bro. That's the problem right there. I'm telling you what you should be. You're not gonna stop it, you're gonna lie. You don't like him. But you don't like females. How you gonna tell me what I don't like? I lie, girl?

I got a question for you. So why are we only unlocking her phone?

Nobody asked for my phone.

Oh. Why don't you wanna see what's in her phone?

I do. She never lets me touch her phone. Mm.

Okay, is there anything that you'd wanna see on her phone?

I mean, it's Nas, so I know what to look forward to. She's portraying how she is to you guys, but I know how she is in real life, so.

So you already know she's cheating on you?

Yeah, I've been in that.

So you don't need to see because you know she's cheating?

Oh yeah, I already know.

Okay.

Yeah, she doesn't— So if I'm cheating on you, why are we together right now then?

Well, listen, Nas wanted me to unlock your phone today, Ari, but specifically only wanted me to look for March 6th when you two got back together.

Okay.

So it's ironic that you didn't ask for like a whole lot of time. You really just wanted March 6th.

Right.

From then there on. Are you ready to see what we found? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Are you sure?

Yes, sir.

What do you think we found?

I don't know. You scaring me now.

Am I scaring you? Is there anything that you think that we found in your phone?

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. That from when I first asked you out, that's what you're saying? Yeah. But you just said you was never texting nobody, correct? I never said that. When did I sit up here and say that? You said you've been telling me that for the past couple days you haven't been texting nobody. Let's talk, bro. Please pull it up.

I'm just trying to show my phone.

Now you really playing.

You have 12 TextNow accounts totaling 2,559 messages. And you paid someone in jail on March 16th.

I'm not about to play with this.

Who's it?

March 16th? On me, I'm not.

Who is this?

On me, it's her ex that I've been talking about. Go ahead, keep going, keep going, go ahead, keep going. JPay, so you did make another JPay. Yeah, you got that. You did make another JPay, right? So you've been texting him? It's the same one, boo. You've been texting him? No, I haven't texted anybody this month. It's the same one. You've been texting him this month? You've been texting him this month? I haven't talked to him. But it's right there, it's on JPay, bro. Yeah, I see it.

So this is a problem for you, why? Because—

This is the same person when we first went out, is the same person she came to my face and said, "Yeah, I'm leaving you." She's in love with him. That's why I tell her, "You're not gay and you don't love me if you keep loving your ex, bro." It should be no reason. I don't text none of my exes or tell him I love him, bro. It should be no reason why you keep texting this man and he don't give a fuck about you.

So you paid him on, you gave him some money on March 16th. This is your ex. Can you explain?

No, I just paid to write a message back.

Okay. And why did you write a message back?

To say she love him and she miss him and he can't get out.

What did you write?

I just basically was like, how you doing? Keep your head up. I miss you. I hope you doing good.

So just for anyone who doesn't understand what JPay is, JPay is an app that for those of us on the outside, we can use to communicate with them, send them monies, put monies on the books. So this is someone that you've been communicating with in jail so that way you can have some type of interaction with them.

So when they get out, they can be together, run into each other's arms and stuff, that type of shit.

Do you wanna be with this person that you were communicating with?

No. I literally just did it to like see if he was good. Like, you good, you straight? He not checking on you. And when he was out, he was never checking on you, bro.

First of all.

What are you talking about? First of all. He was never checking on you when he was out. He was outta jail. He wasn't checking on you when he in jail. Let's keep it a stack.

[Speaker:KARAMO] Okay, well let's get back to the unlocking your phone. So when it came to text messages, we went through the phone to see if there was any suspicious text messages between you and anyone else, specifically any men, any women. And when it came to text messages, we found 63 text messages between you and another man starting on March 8th, Until yesterday.

I'm done, I'm done, I'm done, I'm done, I'm done, I'm done, I'm done. I can walk out that way.

You gotta hear the highlights. Here's the highlights.

Oh no, I don't wanna hear it.

You wanna hear the highlights?

I'm good, go ahead. You tell the audience, you have a wonderful day.

I wanna bring this back. See you later. I need you to see this. Here you go because you need to see this if you really wanna have all the information.

Okay. That's yesterday, right?

Yes.

Okay, I'm gonna sit back down real quick. I'm gonna sit back down real quick.

So this is what, if you can read it.

Yeah, I can read that. Yo, I'm telling you, I'm not gonna do this, I really can't. This junk say, I wanna see you this weekend, I'll be back Friday for a couple days, okay, so see me. I'm gonna be rich though. What show you gonna let me find out, babe? Well, since you watching the show, bro, God, I'm right here, I'm right here. This who she been with for the past couple of months. I wanna know who is this?

You said on my page?

Who is that? She been on my page the past couple of months. You been in my bed. That's why she's right here right now. You been in my bed the last couple of months. Don't lie, don't lie, keep it a stack. I do not live with you, don't lie, keep it a stack.

All jokes aside, this is a text message saying that as of, you're telling them that you're coming here with your partner and then you're gonna go back.

But we in a relationship and you gonna when you get back. First of all. Damn. First of all. Damn, you was about to kiss me too. Damn, can I talk? Can you go back there and talk?

We have one last thing. We have a graphic. Because you rented a hotel. Mm-hmm. And this is for the 23rd.

Oh, that's for my sister.

So hold on, this is for your sister?

Yeah, her birthday.

Because my unlock the phone investigator is telling me that you sent the screenshot of this hotel to the man we were just texting about.

Yeah, but that hotel room is for my sister. So, but you got him and you a hotel though, right? Actually, no, I did not, honey. Oh Lord. Can I ask you a question? Oh Lord.

Can I ask you a question in all sincerity?

Mm-hmm.

And do you wanna take a seat here? Because we already know this is done. "We know this is done. We don't have to pretend. I'm not gonna ask y'all if y'all wanna be together.

Y'all both know this is toxic." Yes, and I thank y'all for helping us out. And now I don't gotta move to Houston with this shit.

We can applaud, but I'm actually not convinced that you won't continue in this relationship.

Oh no, I'm actually pretty good. I'm actually done. This is what I already said. She kept telling me that she wasn't doing anything. Literally out her mouth, kept saying she wasn't doing anything. And I guarantee you this is Papi Chulo. I'm good.

But you have known "But you have known that she has cheated." "Yeah." "Just like she has known you have cheated." "Yeah." "So why would I be convinced that this is the time that's going to break the relationship?" "Because I actually really did have faith in her that she wasn't, that whatever she was doing, that she wasn't doing.

But then again, I also had curiosities 'cause the phone was still going on DMs." "You just got back together a couple weeks ago.

I understand that and I understand you're thinking a restart. You're crying, what's going on?" "Yeah, I'm out.

I can't do this." It's kind of hard when you don't have nobody to talk to, especially your mom, 'cause that's the person you grew up with, you know what I'm saying? That's the person that know everything about you. I don't have nobody. I don't have no family and I don't have my mom. I only have her.

I appreciate you being vulnerable for me right now.

Mm-hmm.

Because for me it connects dots of why you believe this relationship is something that you continue to be in. You are a woman that didn't get the validation or love from your mother. You got rejected. You were talked to negatively. You're mimicking the relationship you have with your mother in this, and you found comfort in someone you could be vulnerable with, but then you then allow the relationship to grow into this toxic behavior.

Yeah.

Do you see that? Mm-hmm. You healing and thinking about, first of all, is your mom's words true? Because you've been grappling with that for your entire life. Am I hitting it on the nail? Talk to me then.

It's not the things she says, like the things that when she gets angry she say. So when she say—

That's the things she says?

Like says a lot.

Hold on, you hear what I just said? I said you've been grappling with the things your mom says is true and then you said no. And then you said it's only when she gets angry.

Yeah.

You're a child that's been defending your parent your entire life. When I asked you what's going on with your mom, you started defending her immediately.

'Cause I love her, you know, and I don't wanna like treat her wrong.

I get it, I get it. But see that same things of like, I love my mom even though the relationship is toxic is the same way you just said I love this woman even though things are toxic. Do you see the pattern?

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

So what I'm trying to help you to understand is that you have to reconcile with yourself if her words are true. And let me tell you, the things that your mother has said to you when she's angry, those words are not true. Those things she said about you are not true because those things that you're believing are true is what's making you believe that you deserve to be in a relationship like this.

Mm-hmm.

Can you just say to me right now, the things my mother said to me aren't true?

The things my mother said to me are not true.

The things my mama said about me are not true.

I'm sorry. It's okay.

It's okay. It's all right. We're here for you.

I'm so sorry. It's all right. It's all right. It's all right. Exactly. The things my mother said are not true.

They're not true. This is a first step for you. Mm-hmm. The more that you can practice saying that is the more that you can get to a place where you'll make a better decision in this relationship.

Right.

I'm taking this moment for you because I do love you.

I love you too.

Seriously. And I don't wanna see either of y'all hurting.

Right.

If y'all need my support, I'll be here for y'all. Can you do that?

Yes. All right. Thank you.

How are you doing?

Good, good to meet you.

Good to meet you, beautiful. Take a seat. You smell great.

Oh, thank you.

Okay, so Victoria, tell me, what is going on while you need my help?

So I'm having trouble loving myself. So I found love after so many people told me that I never would or that I would always be seen as my assigned gender at birth. And I'm at a place now where I have found that love and I wanna learn to love myself.

Okay, what do you think it is that's making you not feel like you are the beautiful woman that we're all seeing in front of us?

Well, I grew up in a small town and I was severely bullied.

Well, I noticed something first of all, when I said you're a beautiful woman that we all see, you switched by it. You don't take compliments in?

I try to when I can, but it's hard for me to see that myself.

Got it, so you were saying you got bullied?

I got bullied, I transitioned at age 14, so as you can imagine, that's not easy for people to digest, especially back in the day. So I really carried a lot of that with me. And when I see myself in the mirror, although I have done several changes along the way, I still see the same face.

The person you're now in love with, his name is Christopher.

Correct.

And you met him in high school?

Correct.

When you were, had you transitioned yet or no?

I had, I transitioned like freshman and sophomore year.

Okay then. Tell me about how it was when you met him and what that was like.

Well, so we, although we had similar friend groups in high school, we never really crossed paths in that way. So he was sort of an athlete, he was a jock. I was myself and heavily bullied.

Was Christopher a part of that bullying?

Well, Christopher was not a part of the bullying. The other athletes of the school certainly were a part of the bullying. So when I first saw him years later, I was a little hesitant.

Of course, 'cause the, The people he was around made you feel uncomfortable and insecure about the beautiful person you are.

Absolutely.

So how did you and Christopher reconnect?

So Christopher and I reconnected years later on a dating app. So I had just gotten my sex reassignment surgery, my bottom surgery, and I thought I wanna experiment and see what's going on in the dating pool. So, you know, I was recovering for months and months. I had my hair up in curlers just swiping, you know? And so you know how it is. And so that's when I saw Christopher's photo.

Yeah.

And at first I didn't recognize him, but we matched and here we are.

Is this the text that you sent?

Yep, these are actually our first ever messages on the dating app.

You've become quite a beautiful woman, Victoria. I'm proud of you for the pushing through this terrible hate and living your truth. Oh, he was so supportive and loving.

He was, yeah. Whoa. Yeah.

Good job. I love that. Okay, so my question is, how are people's response to you and Christopher being together?

So generally it's all very accepting and supportive. When he will sometimes see an old classmate in public, he'll let them know that he's with me and be like, do you remember Victoria, the trans girl, the girl that transitioned? And that's when they immediately go, oh yeah, I do. And they kind of have an issue with it, but they're not in our lives.

Yeah, but still. But the fact that he has to mention your past, it has to affect you.

It does, and frankly, it puts a target on my back.

Why do you think Christopher introduces you as his trans girlfriend and not just his girlfriend?

I think Christopher does that because he's proud of me and he's proud of all the progress that I've made. And while I appreciate that, 2021 was the deadliest year on record for people of transgender experience. And you really never know when you can have a target on your back.

Completely. When you talk to Christopher about that, what does he say?

He understands and he's, you know, worked along with it, but he also doesn't get why I'm not more proud and vocal, especially because I am on my social medias.

Yeah. So how does that make you feel when you hear him saying those things?

Sometimes makes me feel like he doesn't understand or that I'm being perceived as a trans person and not a woman first.

Mm-hmm. So you have a dysphoria where you don't like things about your face.

Right.

What is it that you wanna change on your face?

Well, I always say it's, I'm not talking like fillers, Sherman Williams, we're breaking down walls. Okay, okay. Like I want top to bottom. And a lot of times you see this with trans women on social media, from the forehead to the brow bone, to the nose, to the lips, to the chin, to the jaw. And that is something that I've always wanted and something that Christopher and I don't exactly see eye to eye on.

What does he say? What's his feedback?

He listens as anyone can, but trying to describe dysphoria to somebody is like trying to describe color to a colorblind person. It's something that you can, you know, sort of empathize with, but you'll never truly understand.

Got it, got it. Christopher, come on out please.

Hey.

How are you? Nice to meet you. You look great. Give me a hug. Nice to meet you. You look sharp in this blue. Okay.

You heard it, everyone.

Mm-hmm. So I wanna get right into it.

Yeah.

You introduced your fiancée as your trans girlfriend, your trans fiancée. Why do you do that? So in my eyes, I'm like Victoria said, I'm so proud of her. You know, and we talked about 2021 being the most deadly year on record for transgender women. And as somebody who's in a relationship, I wanna show that it's totally normal and okay to be in a relationship with someone that's transgender. And when I meet family that have questions, it's an opportunity to break some of the stigma and to have conversations about it. So, yeah. So when you hear that she also has these feelings of like that she wants to change her face, How do you feel about that? You know, I, I love Victoria so much. It's heartbreaking to know that she feels like she needs an upgrade, that she needs to change something to be my wife and to make me feel like she's the wife that I deserve. She's so beautiful, and everybody that knows her knows. Yeah, everyone can see it. Victoria, do you trust him when he says that?

I trust him. I don't necessarily agree with it, but that's all you can really do.

Yeah. Victoria, I want to go because when I said something, you hesitated, and I read body language. Do you trust him in general?

I do trust Christopher for the most part. Um, the only issue is my dysphoria gets in the way. Okay. So for me, say for example, a cis woman, someone assigned female at on earth walks by, someone that's pretty, and if his eyeline is even remotely near her, my day could just be ruined. And for me, it feels not necessarily that I'm not pretty enough, but that he deserves somebody who fills that role in the way that I've always been told that I won't.

Have you ever heard the statement, comparison is the thief of joy?

I have not.

I need you to use that mantra for yourself every single day. Because what's going on is that you're comparing yourself to women you see in this world. And it's natural, whether you're a cisgender woman or a trans woman, I think we all look at somebody else and compare ourselves and say, "Oh, look what they got, look how they look." But every time you compare yourself to someone else, you steal your own joy. What's going on right now? What are you thinking?

I'm thinking that I must be crazy because I can't see past what I've always seen.

It's funny that you say you can't get past what you've always seen. It's really you can't get past what you've always heard.

Exactly.

And because we forget that sometimes looking in the mirror, you think you're looking at a reflection back at yourself. You're looking back, a reflection back at all the words that people have said to you your entire life. It's the messages that we get that inform how we feel about ourselves. It's not what we're seeing in that mirror. And you've been receiving messages for years that have told you, you're not good enough. You're not worth it from both in school and then also society. So that's why you want this reconstructive surgery because you feel like it will make, it will validate you in some way.

Absolutely.

You have this opportunity to start to rewrite the narrative. I asked you why you don't see yourself feeling like you're beautiful enough and you said because you don't think you're gonna have the future that you want. What does that future look like for you? When you were younger, what was the future you wanted?

I really wanted to be a mother and a wife. Frankly, and while that's still something that I can achieve, it's always in the back of my mind that maybe he could be with someone that he deserves more or that could carry his children or doesn't have these personal issues.

Is this causing issues for you with her when she says things like this? It's not an issue, it's this desire, this massive desire of mine for her to be able to surrender into the relationship the way that I get to. But there's this barrier between that life for her and where she is now. And as she walks down the aisle, I want her to be able to know that the life we're walking into is something she's gonna be able to enjoy fully. My producers told me you have one big thing that you regret. What is it? Back in school.

So I would hear kids on my baseball team screaming her dead name at her while she tried to just run around the track and just live her life.

And I would tell them to shut up, leave her alone. But you know, I didn't understand the full gravity of what was happening in the school. And knowing now what was going on right next to me, I wish I knew more. It's so, especially when we think about the impact that the environment has on how she sees herself, I wish I could go back and make a difference. It's a huge regret of mine that it was happening right down the hall from me. Well, I'll tell you one of the things of having that regret of wanting to go back and help is understanding that now as an adult, you do have a chance to help. You do have a chance to be a better ally. And part of it is listening to what your woman is saying to you. And she has clearly stated that by identifying her as her trans, your trans girlfriend, your trans fiancée, it's causing her pain. Pain and it's causing her, and there's a double layer here. And that layer is, is that you're a direct, you're a direct relation to the trauma that she experienced in high school. And I don't know if you realize that. She gets to see her trauma every single day every time she looks at you. Do you realize that? Never thought about it like that. Because the fact of the matter is the people that made fun of me in high school, I don't wake up to them every day. And even though you didn't directly bully her in high school, you were part of what she felt was attacking her and making her not feel beautiful. Am I near it?

You are. Yeah. Yeah. I never put that together either, but you're right.

You're waking up next to that. And so for you, when she says to you, don't refer to me in that way, it's not because of your pride. It's not because of this. It's because she's saying, I still have to think about that time Every time you do that, it just brings me right back. Yeah. Brings me right back. So the man you are and how much you love her, you gotta look at your wife right now and truly listen. That's what an ally's gonna do. That's what a husband does. And I would just say to you as well, as much as I want you to see the beautiful woman that we all see, honey, because you are gorgeous, I also want you to know that I acknowledge the feeling you have about wanting to feminize your face. I've had many trans friends and I understand that is what's gonna make you feel more comfortable. So I can't judge your journey on that. And I think for you, the more you tell her that she's wrong for wanting to do it, the more she's gonna feel as if like, I need to do it. She's telling you right now that she's comparing herself to other women because she's scared you're gonna leave. So just say to her like, whatever you need to make yourself feel comfortable, I'm here. And through that, that's unconditional love. That unconditional love, because like you said, you can't understand what she's going through. I can't understand what you're fully going through. But what we can do is say whatever you wanna go through and wherever you are on your journey, I love you unconditionally on that journey. That will start to support her. And I think for me, anytime I don't feel cute and someone says, well, okay, I love you however it is, I'm like, oh, okay, well maybe. Maybe I am a little cuter today. But one day, one day, I pray that you lose those words of all those negative bullies in your life. And the words that you hear are mine, that you're beautiful and you're special and you're gorgeous. His words, that you're beautiful, you're special, and you're gorgeous. Audience, please tell her she is beautiful. Everyone with me? Everyone with me? Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Everyone with me right now, please tell her how beautiful, say you are beautiful.

You are beautiful.

You are gorgeous.

You are gorgeous.

And you didn't deserve that bullying.

And you didn't deserve that bullying.

Here, seriously, hear our words. Let that replace the words that you're hearing in your head as you're on this journey because we do love you.

Thank you.

We do love you. Jenna, please tell me about your relationship with Keith.

Well, it's pretty complicated. We were together for, about a year and a half before she decided to open our relationship to a third person.

Specific words, you said she decided.

Yes, she did.

So it wasn't your decision?

It wasn't. My love for her made me willing to try anything. I had noticed secret conversations between them.

Yeah.

And it made me wanna go through her phone and I found out that she You pulled one of my stunts. Yeah.

Okay.

I couldn't help myself. Okay. So they were actually discussing having a baby.

Oh wow.

Yeah.

So it got deep quick.

Yeah.

Okay, let me back it up. How were things in the beginning?

We were great. I actually left an abusive relationship before her, so she helped me find a lot of self-love and growth.

When did you two move in together?

Did you guys move in together? Immediately. We were living together like within 3 weeks to a month.

I'm not gonna say nothing about stereotypes of my sisters in my community, but I've heard this story before.

Yeah.

Moving very quickly. I've heard this before. So you're also raising your kids together, right?

Yes.

Okay, how many do you have and how old are they?

Isabella is my oldest and then my son Caleb.

That's a beautiful family.

And Kehlani is 4.

And Key said you'd always be number one. What did that mean?

That's the thing is I always wanted reassurance, but I never felt secure that I, I just wanted security that I would be her wife one day. And that was an argument that we had many times since bringing Kayla in.

Got it. How do you feel about Kayla? Kayla being the other girlfriend?

I like her and I enjoy her presence. It was something really hard for me to get used to, but they put way too much focus on building their connection instead of trying to get me comfortable with everything and building mine and Kayla's connection, actually.

What are the things that they do behind your back?

She used to leave me with the kids and they would get to go on date nights nights and—

Why didn't they include you and invite you?

I guess because of the kids, but there was never an option to just find a babysitter. It was kind of just, oh, I'm leaving, I'm doing this.

Okay, I gotta be real with you because I've never been in a polyamorous relationship, but I do know what it's like for the person you love to start to have an emotional connection with someone else. Did that break your heart?

It absolutely did.

Tell me about that moment because I just, 'cause you know, it's easy to look at like, oh, this is a throuple, so like this is crazy. But like at the end of the day, your emotions are caught up. You have a family together.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. I wanna say it was around my birthday last year, February, that I found out they were telling each other they loved each other. And me and Kayla never got to that level. So I was really hurt that they were progressing doing something without me.

Did you break up with her for a little bit?

I didn't break up with her until after the baby thing.

So when you found out that they were secretly talking about having a baby.

Yeah, that was the last straw for me.

Did you ever confront them?

I confronted Key. She just said like one day, like after us or, that was when I really realized how serious and how they were falling in love with each other.

He also, which my producer just told me, proposed to Kayla in December.

She did.

While you were broken up.

Mm-hmm.

How did you find out and how did you feel?

So I went and looked online and saw Kayla saying that she was officially a fiancée and nobody really knows, but that really did break me. I was depressed for a couple days. At least.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Are you and Key and Kayla back together right now?

Not officially. I'm trying to work through emotions and I feel like us all coming up front with our feelings is necessary completely to move forward.

What do you need from them to have this relationship work?

We all need an agreement of what we all want together.

Okay, let's hear their side of the story. So everyone, please welcome Key and Kayla to the show. Hey, how are y'all doing? Please take a seat for me. Um, so Key, I'm gonna start with you.

Yes.

Why did you want another girlfriend?

She was lacking in some areas, but not enough to where like I wanted to leave her.

What are the areas that you felt like she was lacking?

Probably like sexually. Like I was her first girlfriend, you know? So like I felt like, you know, she didn't really, you know, wanna give me, you know, any pleasure in that way. So like it was kind of hard. It was like one-sided.

Have you ever heard this? Did you know this?

I did.

Key, was another girlfriend just an excuse to cheat?

I'm not a cheater. I don't like to cheat, you know? So I like to be honest.

I like how Kayla, when I asked that question, started smiling at me.

Right. I like to be honest. So, you know, I was like, you know, maybe we should open the relationship 'cause maybe we could find a girl that is like not like you, you know? So, you know, I have the—

Well, did you ask her how she felt felt about an open relationship before you started it?

Um, I feel like I did ask her and she wasn't really okay with it. It was like a girl that she was— did they ask? Um, no, she brought it up like on a public forum that she wanted two girlfriends. That's how I found out. There's a lot of women in the world, you know, and she, you know, she likes women too, so I was Why not, you know, try?

Kayla, so you're the third in this.

Yeah.

Well, not anymore. You're kind of, I saw how y'all walked out. You're kind of the first in this now. So what was it like for you when they asked you to be in this relationship?

Well, they both approached me and it seemed like it was supposed to be a relationship. Like I got claimed right away and I didn't know that Jenna thought it was just gonna be a fling. A fling that was temporary.

So Key had told you that this was a relationship, but you were under the impression that we were just having a fling.

Yeah, Key both told me that it was a relationship. They found me together.

Okay.

Yeah. Yeah, we were doing things with her like we would in a relationship and Jenna was like trying to, you know, like put up walls like let's not fall in love. But like I'm a lover, so like I'm like how do we like do everything in a relationship in a relationship with this girl and then not fall in love with her? I feel like you pressured me to like love her so fast because you guys were in love.

So Kayla, how do you feel about your relationship now?

Well, I definitely have been hurt about it 'cause I did go in loving, wanting to love both of them and then everything like got strewn out through the summer and then like, then it was just me and Key, but then Key was like seeing Jen behind my back and lying and both of them lying, not talking to me about it. But now I'm still open to making it work because that's how I came into it.

I wanna hear what my audience has to say about this. Anybody have a comment on this? Okay.

Okay, what are your thoughts on the subject? Hi, so I'm polyamorous myself actually. I think there's a lot of love between all of you, but there's also a lot of confusion. And I think that you all started out opening up your relationship and maybe went a little bit too fast. You know, I think that you could have been communicated with better, right?

Jenna?

Yeah, Jenna. Yeah. And you as well coming into this relationship thought that, you know, it would be open, that the both of you would be ready.

So it sounds like you're saying Jenna should have been communicated with more She should have known that they were ready. It sounds like you're saying he's at fault here.

I don't wanna place blame on everyone because polyamorous relationships are very complicated, but I think communication between the three of you, like knowing that in a polyamorous throuple, there's a relationship between person A and person B, person B and person C, person C and person A, and then there's a relationship between the three of you. Yes. And all of those need to be treated with respect and with communication and trust. That's beautiful perspective. Thank you so much.

I'm gonna be honest with you, polyamorous relationships are new for me. Key, I'll ask you, do you think that each of those have been handled properly?

Yes, I felt like that was the main thing I was trying to do.

But it sounds like from Jenna's point of view, the relationship you didn't focus on was you two.

Yes, that right there.

That's what it is.

Nail on the head. I don't agree. I just felt like me and you took a pause while we focused on Kayla.

Okay, what's your point of view?

I got a question for Key. So you said earlier that maybe we need to bring someone else in that's not Jenna, correct? So if you are a person that loves to love, how do you think that's making Jenna feel? Number one, that was there first. I mean, I felt like me being honest was better than stepping out.

But do you feel like that's a part, a little bit of betrayal? Taking Kayla out for a second, if my partner communicates they want something, then great, yes. But then it's like without proper time to really figure it out, to communicate, to understand, I would feel like, dang, like, wow. I don't know, that's just me.

No, I agree. And I feel like I could definitely feel the love from Jenna to Key because Clearly you're doing something in order to make Key happy. You done entered a whole can of worms that you really wasn't beat for. Am I correct or nah? Correct. I was not prepared, yeah. Yeah, you was unprepared, rightfully so. So.

Thank you. All right, let's talk about this. So Jenna, I wanna know, do you feel like you can stay in this relationship?

I love them both. More than I've ever loved anyone else in my life. If we could come to an agreement altogether, that's different, but I don't like being told one thing and then just imagining that she's being told something else.

Yeah.

I don't feel like I tell them anything different. I want them to both feel like they're wanted in life. Like the baby thing, she wants a child, so like I don't feel like she should settle and not want to— not be able to have a kid because— but that conversation should have been all three of us.

Do you agree with that?

I do. I do believe that should have been, you know, but she was just so stuck up to like, no, she— I don't want her to have that with you. I don't want her to, you know, have all that. You know, she never gave me the security that I was your number one. You were telling me that, but you were showing— your actions were showing different. But you pulling yourself away from me. I was watching you guys fall in love. Exactly. And it was making me want to pull myself away. Exactly. And you weren't putting yourself in a situation. Why do I have to fight for your love? You didn't have to fight for it. You the one that took yourself from the situation. I don't like the way you react to me and yell at me and call me names. That's not a normal basic thing. Well, you don't listen to me. You are like a— But I've seen you do the same thing. You do the same thing to her. Yeah, she does. Exactly. So does she not listen to you? She does, right? Yeah, she does exactly that.

I'm not gonna chase after them because they're the one who set this in motion and then are deciding to leave. So what I'm gonna do to you ladies is just say this. That's very sweet. That's very sweet.

Very sweet.

I actually, it really is sweet. Because at the end of the day, I do believe that there was love. I think you were uncomfortable and it just wasn't patient enough. You didn't get the proper communication you needed. Communication just was off there. You gotta start to figure out how to move on, which you already are. They're engaged, they're in love. And so you have to start making your decisions based on the facts, not based on what could be. Because I think a lot of times in relationship we make make these decisions on like, well, I think they could be, I think this could be. But the fact of the matter is they don't live with you anymore. They are engaged and they are happy. And part of them still wants to control something that they can't control anymore. And you just said you saw it as well. And also I would say to you, you're young, you're beautiful, and I'm not telling you to leave your fiancé by any means, but I am also gonna say I would say watch behavior. Pattern behavior doesn't switch until someone decides that they want to actually take the steps to do the work to grow and to heal themselves. And a response like walking off isn't someone who's taking the steps to grow.

No accountability.

No accountability there, yeah. So you as a young person, younger than two of them, watch yourself. Just watch it. Make sure you don't find yourself situation we're now, because now you're talking about marriage, now you're talking about kids, you're talking about a lot of stuff and this is your first relationship, okay? Again, I'm not telling you to leave, but I'm telling you to watch it and understand that if things get to a place where you see it mimicking what you saw here, and I just heard you say, "Yeah, that's what they do with me too. That's what they do with me." So you're already picking it up.

Start to say to yourself, "Maybe I need to go." I did tell Jenna when we first started dating, We just started talking again. I do feel bad that I wasn't there for her during things, 'cause she did tell me a lot of stuff that she was going through with Key. And then I went through it and I didn't have, I wished I had her next to me. So I do understand why she wanted me there.

Got it. So you're both experiencing the same things. Yeah. Well, I'm glad that there was Alyssa's support system that you all have for each other. And again, I'm not going to bash Key's character. That's never my intention here. I just hope that Key can grow and be a better partner for you, can be a better person to help you to have the relationship end in a positive way so that the kids can feel healthy. And I hope that they start to do the work on themselves. So I wish you all the best of luck.

Thank you. I haven't had a bond with my son my son since he was a little boy. He makes me feel like I'm a bad mom. He thinks I judge him because he's gay, but I do not. There's been heated arguments, and in those heated arguments, I have told him that it was a sin. That's how I was taught, that's how I was raised, that it was a sin to be that way. I don't really want to just get— keep continuing to stay on that topic, that gay topic. I don't like touching that. I'm not trying to hurt him anymore. So, but that one thing he cannot hold against me. I have never judged him. I was raised that that was wrong. I want her to look at me more than just my sexuality. I'm not gay. I'm Jimmy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Have you ever been close with your mom?

When I was younger, my mom and I were very close.

How do you communicate with her? How long have you been writing letters?

I've been writing letters since the moment that I could spell a word.

So you are one of 12 children. Did you feel like you were treated differently?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

In what ways?

More ways than I could even begin to explain. Just the way that my siblings are looked at. My siblings get eye contact, my siblings get a hug, my siblings, get compassion, but me, I have never.

Do you think the relationship with your mom is salvageable?

That's really something she has to ask herself, but I believe she loves me, but I don't think she loves every part of me.

What do you want to happen today?

I just want some respect. You don't have to respect that I'm gay. I don't care. You have made me feel like I've done something wrong. I was sexually assaulted when I was 5. That affects a child major. And so whether I want to be this way or not, that is how I am. I feel like that affected me. But even if that didn't happen, I was born this way. This is not a choice that I made. I don't want to be ridiculed. Got it.

So I know that you, were in college, right? And that you had to stop because your grandmother passed, correct? And so you moved outta your mom's house. I'm sorry. What made you emotional right there? Here you go.

I'm so sorry.

It's okay.

I'm so sorry.

Here, what's going on, babe? Talk to me.

Here you go.

Here you go.

Here you go.

I'm sorry. What happened, Karamo?

I'm so sorry.

Give me a hug. Give me a hug. Give me a hug. Give me a hug. What happened? What just happened?

My grandma is the only person that's ever made me feel like I'm normal. Got it. See, Dad, I don't have anybody. Nobody can look at me.

Here, come back out with me. I'm sorry. No, you do not need to apologize. Let me tell you what I'm gonna teach you right now. First lesson is you don't apologize for your feelings because you are just like every other human being. You're entitled to your feelings and you're entitled to express them and be who you are.

Yes.

So you don't ever have to apologize for that. Okay, so you moved outta your mom's house, right?

I did for a little while.

Okay, got it. Are you back in your mom's house?

Yes.

And so how's it been being back in your mom's house?

I thought that our relationship was okay after I graduated, but really I just feel like me going to college, I was outta the way. She didn't have to deal with me anymore. That embarrassment of your, co-captain cheerleader son that got prom king and did all these great things in high school, you don't wanna look at him anymore because it's not the son that you imagined.

Got it. Is your father in your life?

I have two daddies. My stepdad is great. That man will lay his entire everything. The belt that's on my waist is his. He has held me up. My biological dad, My biological father, he's been pretty back and forth, in and outta my life.

Got it. Well everyone, I wanna meet Jimmy's mother Amanda, so let's welcome her to the stage to get her side of the story.

A lot of stuff is not true. It's absolutely not the truth. Yeah, denial is a river in Egypt. It is not true. It is not true. I supported you in cheer and all. Mama, it's not cheer. It is not cheer. It is me. I don't care about the activities I do. I love him, but I don't have to like what he does. You don't, but you have to respect it. You have to respect it. I'm not asking you— I don't disrespect it either. I take up for him. That is not true. You're my mom. Do you want a pat on the back for that? No, do you want clout for sitting here making me out to be this villain that I'm not? I'm not trying to make you look like a villain. You have done great things. But the bad things outweigh them. What bad? The way you make me feel. The way you don't look me in my eyes. Because you tell me don't touch you. You don't like to be asked. Why do you think I don't want— Mom, I was sexually assaulted. How was I supposed to know that? If nobody tells me. Ask questions, pay attention to your kids. I'm not saying anything bad. I just want you to get better so my siblings don't have to ever go through anything like I did.

Did you know that he was sexually assaulted?

No, I did not.

When was the first time?

At 5 years old, no I did not.

When did you first hear this?

Kindergarten. I told you when I was 16.

Did you remember him telling you?

I thought that was another incident, but yes, I remember.

Okay, okay, you remember. And when that happened, do you feel like your mother was there for you in that moment?

No, I feel like she did what she knew and just swept it under the rug. I didn't even know how to, how, I didn't know how to be there. I understand that, but neither did I. I had never been through that, I didn't know, I had never— I get that, I get that. But when are you gonna stop saying I, me, I, me and start caring about me and my feelings? Why do you feel that I don't? I don't understand what— I've never judged you, I've never said anything about you being, your sexuality, I've never said— You constantly telling me G-A-Y. That is not a thing, G-A-Y. Gay! It's gay! I don't want the little one saying it, walking around saying it. You are making gay seem like it is a bad thing. This is not something I chose to be, but just accept me. Just accept me. What do you mean? I have always accepted her. No, you have not. You are in denial. What makes you think that I haven't? Mama, you can't even look me in my eyes. You have not hugged me in years.

Jimmy, would you—

I have not.

I want to give you a second to I want you to take a break in the green room and I wanna talk to your mom alone, okay? I'm gonna have you go back this way. Come to here for me. What do you think the issues are between you two?

Honestly, I do not know. Our relationship started going down when he was like in, after kind of like junior high or whatever. That's when things started changing. He started changing. We've always wrote letters to each other to express how we feel because that's how my mom and I did. He makes me feel bad now. He's like, how do you think it made me feel that I couldn't come and talk to you, that I had to write letters? And I was like, I thought that was health— like something that was healthy, good for both of us, even though—

Do you feel like you treat him differently?

No, honestly, basically I feel like I've lost him because he feels that I don't accept him and that's not true.

Do you have any shame in your heart that you have a gay child?

No, I'm not ashamed of him. I'm not ashamed of him at all. I never have been. I was raised in a home to where it was wrong and that's it. And I don't speak on it because I don't know, I don't understand it. So I don't speak on it. Like I don't have to sit and why do we have to have a topic about it?

Yeah.

Like, it's something that I don't understand, so I don't speak on it.

So one of the things that you said is that, "I don't understand it." Would you be open to talking to him more to understand who he is and understand more about his sexuality?

First, I have to understand him because I don't understand him.

Are you willing to learn about his experience as a gay man?

What do I gain from that? You gain more understanding of your child I don't understand what you mean about learn.

So part of who your son is is he's a gay man, which means like as he gets older, he's gonna have a relationship. He's gonna have, just like your other children probably have dates that they come over to the house, they'll want to meet you. So there's a part of that that I'm asking you, would you be willing to learn more about that?

I guess, I mean.

Yeah, I'm just asking.

It really doesn't, I don't understand what you're saying.

See, the same way that you said—

What are you meaning when you saying, am I willing to what? You saying accept him? I didn't say— Because I accept him.

I didn't say anything about acceptance.

So what do you mean in learn?

Would you be open to learning about your son as a gay man and what that entails?

Yes.

I think part of the reason I'm gonna speak somewhat for him just from similar experiences. I grew up in a Christian household and I also grew up in a household where my father that literally did not talk to me at all, even though we're in the household, because he was not willing to accept me as a gay man. I experienced that, and it hurt me every single day because I felt like, well, then maybe these people don't like me. He would say things like, I respect you, I want to get to know you, but then also at the same rate, he was showing me that he didn't want to learn about me. And we did not talk for 18 to 20 years. And in that time, in that time, I became a very successful man, a very a happy man. And in the back of my mind, in the back of my mind, hold on a second. In the back of my mind, I always wanted my father there because I was like, I want him to be enjoying this. I want him to be experiencing this with me. But what I realized is that my father, as much as I learned about him and understood his life and the things he was, and I had the empathy to say, okay, I get how you were raised. You were raised in a house where you were told one thing. You went to church every day. This is how you were taught. I understand where you're coming from. He never took a chance to understand me. And then one day, 4 years ago, he said, I finally want to learn. And he decided at that point to start making the choice to learn more about this community that he had been taught for so long. He started to learn. And this is a man that is still very devoted to his religion. And now we have the best relationship because because he took the opportunity to learn. So when I'm asking you, do you wanna take a time to learn? I'm not asking you to change your beliefs. I'm asking you to take, do you wanna learn more about yourself?

You do? I don't wanna feel distant from him.

Yeah.

'Cause I do love him.

I know there's love in your heart, but I also understand and have empathy for the fact that you were raised a certain way and that you were taught a certain thing. I actually, because I've been through it and I've grown past it, and also because I'm also a proud Christian man, I also can very— I can say to you, I see it. I understand what you've been through. But I can tell you, if you really want to be able to get that relationship with him, you being able to say that I'm willing to learn will be a big step.

I am. And I think that's a big issue that I don't speak about it. I don't talk about it.

Yeah.

And I think that's why he feel like I don't accept him because I won't talk about it or whatever. Yeah. I accept him. I just, that's just not something that I wanna sit and talk about.

Yeah. And with, through education, you'll learn more and then maybe you might become more comfortable, but that's gonna be the first step for you.

For you.

If I bring Jimmy back out, would you be able to say to him that you're willing to learn?

Yes.

All right, I'm gonna bring Jimmy back out. Your mother and I talked and I heard your mom. She heard me, which I was very thankful for. And she has something that she would like to share with you.

I'm willing to learn who you are and I do accept you. I love you and I'm sorry for making you feel I love you too.

There's a lot of pain that has been here. Well, Jimmy, I can tell you this. I know your mother does love you at the core, and I also understand I understand, as I shared with your mom, what it feels like from your perspective being a young Black gay man who just wants to be seen and know that their parents love them wholeheartedly. And what I tried to show your mother and what she accepted, which is why I give her her praise, which is why I'm giving you your flowers right here, is that through me talking to her calmly, she understood that she has to learn more and she was willing to learn more. And that's a big step. And maybe for some other people it seems like a small step, but for somebody who's grown in a household where you've been told this is wrong, this is wrong, to say I wanna at least learn, education is the first step. And so I thank you for that.

Thank you.

And she wants to get closer. Do you wanna get closer to your mom?

I do.

Tell her.

I wanna be able to have a relationship. I just wanna open up, but I can't. I don't know how to, but I'll work on it. I will too.

Y'all took a very big step. You took a very big step. Listen, I know if y'all need anything, I wanna be a resource for both of y'all. So if y'all ever need anything, I want y'all to know you can talk to me. I'm gonna hear you, okay?

Okay.

And I wish y'all the best of luck, all right?