In this KARAMO episode, host Karamo facilitates a live, mediated conversation between Brandon, a Black gay man from North Carolina, and his mother Shirley, who Brandon identifies as his childhood bully. Brandon recounts a history of emotional and physical abuse, abandonment, and neglect, including a violent incident at age 13 where his mother allegedly punched him and expressed wishes for an abortion. He describes being shuffled between relatives, entering foster care, and navigating a hostile environment while excelling in the arts (Nutcracker, cheerleading) and becoming the first in his family to graduate college. Shirley offers her perspective, acknowledging past mistakes, describing her own survival mode from age 16, and asserting she never intentionally lied or abandoned him, though she admits limited involvement. The dialogue oscillates between accusations, attempts at factual clarification (receipts of kinship paperwork), and emotional pleas. Karamo steers the conversation toward understanding generational trauma, encouraging empathy, and prompting both parties to articulate needs: Brandon seeks consistent presence, support, and acknowledgment of his hurt; Shirley offers love and a promise to be more present. The episode ends with Shirley expressing love and a commitment to be there, providing a tentative step toward reconciliation.
Chapters
When you hear someone else's story, you learn empathy. You educate yourself on their experience. My first guest's story is very shocking. Brandon reached out to the show for help with confronting his childhood bully, his mother Shirley. It's been 7 years since Brandon has last saw Shirley, and this will be the first time he addresses his past with her. Please everyone, welcome Brandon to the show. How you doing?
Good, you? I'm good.
You look great.
Thank you.
Thank you. So now y'all see why I had to come sharp today. Brandon said, I'm not playing with you. How's it going?
Good, you?
I'm really good. So this was shocking to me when I read this, that you said you're facing your bully and it being your mother.
Yes.
Tell me about your experience.
Wow. So my mother has always been, you know, who she is. You know, I was bullied a lot as a child for being different. And when I say different, I mean being gay. Yeah. I'm child number 4 outta 8 and I am the second boy. So you can only imagine like the pressure it is to be a Black male in the South, raised in North Carolina. I remember when I was 13, almost 14, I was in 8th grade. We got into a huge fight.
Yeah.
And you know, I remember she like just punched me dead in my chest. And you know, she said something to the effect of, "I wish I had an abortion or I wish I didn't have you." Right? And those words stick with me to this day. And so when I hold myself to such a high standard that whenever I don't feel like I'm meeting my own expectations, I'm so down on myself and that fight sticks to my head so vividly. And I remember—
'Cause she made you feel like you weren't enough.
Like I was scum. Like I was like nothing.
So did Shirley raise you?
Until I was 13, 14 years old. So we were with my grandmother on and off. So Shirley was in and out of the picture. And then when I was almost 14 years old, Shirley went to rehab and in North Carolina, how they do it is, your kids go to siblings or someone else should go. And I remember sitting in that room and no one in my family wanted to take me. Like I had nowhere to go. And I remember like it was end of 8th grade. I remember talking to my family and I was like, hey, I might be leaving. She was like, what do you mean? I was like, well, if I can't find somewhere to go, I might go to group home or foster care. And then her mom was like, I'll take him.
Wow, that's dope.
Right? And school came around and 14, 15-year-old me starting high school and Shirley was nowhere to be found. We couldn't find her. And in North Carolina, you have to have parent consent to do any sports or anything. And Shirley came and signed over her kinship to my neighbor and that was that.
Wow, okay.
I danced a lot of my troubles away. Like I found myself in the arts and she missed, I was in The Nutcracker for 4 years. Nice. Look, there's me, cheer.
You were a cheerleader as well?
Yes.
Yeah.
I cheered in high school. I was the first male cheerleader at my high school.
Nice, breaking records.
That's my college graduation. I'm the first one outta 8 to graduate from college.
Good job. Yeah.
And I did that by myself, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
She missed out on a lot, but I'm ready to close that chapter in my life and get closure. So I'm like seeking your help today to help me, you know, get closure, you know, close that chapter and maybe hopefully open a new chapter with Shirley. Maybe, maybe not. But I would love for your help just to address that.
Well, I'm here to help you. So everyone, welcome Shirley to the show. So I just wanna let you know, I'm not here to judge you. I wanna hear your side of the story as well, honestly, because I heard what your son had to say and I wanna hear from you what was going on during those time that you two weren't together.
And this me signing him away? I didn't never sign him away to nobody. Shirley. And this is not what I came out here to do. He's not gonna bash me.
I'm not bashing you.
This is when he said I punched him in the chest 'cause he thought he was man enough or big enough to fight me. Ain't nothing that came out of me gonna see him jump on me and think they man enough to whoop my ass. Uh-uh. I ain't it.
Okay, let's talk about facts. Let's talk about facts. How did I go all the way through school without parent signature? You were supposed to come back and get me.
I ain't it.
I got receipts, Shirley. You literally cannot sit here and say like you did not sign up for Kinship. I got paperwork.
You let— That day when you jumped on me and I tore your ass up.
This is literally—
And me bullying you? No, I told you like this. I knew what you was when you was 3 years old. I knew you were gay and I told you, be what you are and be the best that you are 'cause you always half of me, period.
Okay, but why did that translate to actions, right? Why were you never in my corner backing me up? Why were you never cheering for me? How come I went through my entire—
Just like when that boy tried to whoop your ass and I told you better tear his up, I was gonna whoop your one, period. I never sat here and I had your corner.
Describe from your own words, what was your relationship like with Brandon back then?
Brandon had his— Brandon had his own, own functional attitude.
She doesn't even know that when I left home, I tried to take my own life. She has no clue. Do you even know that?
Did you even know I even tried to take mine too?
It's always a one-up. Shirley has to one-up everything.
Do you know how many nights I stayed up crying over y'all?
Oh, okay.
That's what I said, okay.
What was I looking for?
Because again, it's always the one-up, right? You know what I mean? I was crying, so I'm crying too. Well, baby, we both crying. You know what I mean? We're both crying.
Shirley, did you get into fights with your other children?
I whooped my oldest daughter 'cause she thought she could whoop my ass too.
Was that what happened to you when you were a child?
My mama tore my ass up all the time.
Okay.
So what's the difference?
Why didn't you want your son in your house?
'Cause when you think you're grown than me, then you need to be out on your own.
Okay, well.
But he was 13.
But when you think you're grown into me, then you need to be on your own.
Do you feel like Brandon is unfairly blaming you for the past?
They can blame me all they want to.
But do you think he's unfairly blaming you?
Yeah.
Okay.
Why do you think he's unfairly blaming you?
I know I did my wrong. Ain't no parent perfect. Nobody. Nobody's perfect. I made amends, I tried to apologize and all of that. No.
Shirley, when did you reach out to me and try to apologize?
I did the things I needed to do. I needed to do to make my past, to get over my past, to make it—
When did you reach out to me to apologize?
But I'm not gonna keep—
When did you reach out to me to apologize? When did you reach out to me and apologize?
My past is what made me here and brought me here today.
When have you reached out and apologized?
I've done things for Brandon and done said things and told Brandon I love him and forgive me for what I did wrong. I done said that over the phone many a times.
So, Ms. Shirley, I'm gonna say Shirley.
I'm not gonna keep apologizing for what I already tried to done right. You just said— Or tried to make right.
But he's saying to you right now that he hasn't heard that apology.
So I will give her credit. She did reach out to me last year when I was in the hospital. She did buy me food and pay half my rent 'cause I was in the hospital, right? I will give her that. I will give her that credit. But when she says, "I love you and I apologize," sometimes it's hard to believe what's real and what's not real. You know what I mean?
'Cause of the years that you felt like you had to lie.
Because all the hurt. So it's hard to, take the real from the fake.
So what did you need from Shirley back then?
What I needed from Shirley back then was someone who's gonna protect me, someone who's gonna cheer for me, someone in my corner, someone to advocate for me. Because I went through a lot. Whether she wants to believe it and admit it or not, I went through a lot as a child.
Do you believe like you did those things for him when he was younger? Protect him, cheer for him?
I did give him praise and I still give him praise. Whether he believe it or not, that's on him.
Okay.
That's on him. I tell him now till today when I speak to him, I'm proud of you.
Yeah.
Whether he choose to believe it or not, that's on him.
But it's easy to be proud of someone when you didn't help create that amazing person. You know what I mean?
Look at her right now and tell her, what did you need from her back then?
I needed you to be there.
Even if I wasn't there, I can still tell you to the day, I'm proud of you, period. I can still tell you I'm proud of you. Somebody ain't got to be there. If you feel like they want, they can still be proud of you, of who you are as a person, as a man, or what, whatever. They can still, just like my mama won't there for me, but I'm still proud of me.
You've taught me so many things indirectly. You taught me what I wanted from a partner. She was in a very abusive relationship growing up, and watching that And I went through an abusive relationship. The guy who was my boyfriend was also my bully, believe it or not. And I thought that was normal because that's what she went through. But as I got older, I realized I don't want anyone hitting me. I don't want anyone talking down to me.
Yeah, yeah.
So she's taught me so many things indirectly, which is why I'm here. Like, I wanna be able to start fresh. But we can't start fresh without addressing the past. It shouldn't have taken me being in the hospital for you to reach out.
But we was reaching out before that too, little bit by little bit.
Shirley, when he was younger, were you in survival mode? Yeah. Yeah. What was that like for you? 'Cause now just getting this other information that you didn't even know.
I've been on my own since I was 16.
Yeah.
So, and I took care of mine. I did what I had to do to take care of mine.
Yeah.
So I worked, I hustled a little bit. So I did what I had to do to take it. They didn't go without. Yeah.
So I will say this woman is a true fighter. I've, again, I've seen Everything.
Yeah.
Everything.
Yeah.
I've seen everything. Again, she has taught me, and I think that's where I get my strength from. So I feel like I get my survival mode and my strength and my awareness from her.
Shirley, I wanna know.
I didn't lie to him.
Okay, that's a little bit of a stretch.
When I hustled, I never lied to y'all when I was hustling.
Okay.
I didn't lie to y'all.
All right.
Y'all knew where the money was and everything.
Yeah. Shirley, 'cause hold on.
I didn't know what the other stuff was, but Daddy just said anything happened to money was such place.
Shirley, your son wants a resolution. I know you just said you thought you were working on it, but it seems like in this moment in his life, the abandonment that he felt, and I can tell that from your perspective, it was like you did the best you could. Hearing now also you were 16, that you were on your own. It's not that I'm excusing behavior, I'm not doing that. But what I'm saying is I could understand where you were. I understand now more the aggression. But your son is saying to you right now that I want to build more of a relationship, but I don't feel like you're hearing me when I say I was hurt. Can you just acknowledge that he was hurt?
Okay, he was hurt.
Can you acknowledge that?
But do you see how she says it though?
But hold on, no, no, no, because this is what I'm gonna say to you because I'm on your side. So one of the things that you have to let go is that if you really want a relationship with her, whatever she says and how she says it, you've gotta try to give her the benefit of the doubt from this point on. She's saying to you, I can acknowledge, but in your mind you're like, it's not what I want. It's not what I want. We have to understand especially about generational wounds and trauma and that's what we're experiencing. Your mother didn't have the tools. And again, I'm not excusing behavior, but she didn't have tools and she did the best she could. I do believe you tried. I do believe. But I also know that her trying left you feeling very abandoned and alone because she didn't know what to do. What do you need for her to say, to forgive this and start to move on? What do you need?
I think what I need is just her to be there, be more active, be more visible. To genuinely call and say, "Hey, how are you doing? What do you need from me today?" When I invite you to things, I want you to be like, "Okay, I'm coming." Okay. I'm about to get married. I want you to be there.
Okay.
Do you wanna be there, Charlie?
Oh yeah.
Yeah, you do?
So I could dance in the middle for some, but thank the Lord he's married now.
I noticed something. Listen, you use humor to mask your feelings and it's a protection for you. I get it, I get it, I see it now. 'Cause even when you were saying, "I want you to be there," your body language moved closer to you. She moved into you. She does wanna be there and she gave you an apology on this show today. And I think that should be the first step for you to know that you can heal this. I do believe your mother hears you. I truly do, I truly do. Shirley, is there anything you wanna say to your son before we go?
You know I love you. I love you with all my heart. Do anything for you, I'll be there.
Thank you.
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