The Most Outrageous Mother & Daughter Face-Offs | KARAMO
In this Karamo‑hosted episode, a mother (referred to as Norma/Anita) and her multiple adult daughters—Sabrina, Jamie, Brittany, Kayla, Melody, and Crystal—confront a decades‑long web of family dysfunction on a public stage. The conversation begins with grief over the death of the family patriarch, James, where the mother accuses a daughter of being responsible for his passing. The dialogue quickly expands to reveal a history of substance abuse, foster‑care placement, alleged identity theft, and physical altercations. Several daughters disclose experiences of sexual abuse while in foster care, demanding accountability and healing. Throughout, Karamo attempts to mediate, alternating between empathetic validation and firm calls for responsibility. The mother repeatedly defends herself, claims she is not trying to humiliate her children, and accuses the show of bias. Tensions climax when the mother is told she “flipped the table,” leading to a heated exchange where Karamo emphasizes that her defensive actions have broken any chance of rebuilding the mother‑daughter relationship. The mother expresses a desire for resolution and balance, but Karamo asserts that without genuine listening and readiness, the confrontation only deepens the rift. The episode ends with the mother feeling blamed and the daughters left without the reconciliation they sought, illustrating the challenges of confronting entrenched trauma in a televised intervention setting.
Chapters
So yeah, I choked her a little bit. She's got it a little bit wrong. I don't have anything wrong. No, these kids are monsters.
Why you talking?
I cannot apologize for my past. Why can you never take accountability? Girl, you sitting up here lying. The devil gonna see all through that, baby. Get outta my face then. You a wicked old miserable bitch.
I know it's been 2 months since you lost your husband. I'm really sorry about that. How have you been? How are you holding up?
I ain't.
You're not?
I just stay in my room, in my bed, and look at the picture where I talked to him like that, and now it's just sad, lonely.
Tell me about your husband, James.
Beautiful man. I loved him. He was the world.
He was? Yes. Y'all had a great relationship?
A beautiful relationship.
So, I like that I got a smile out of you when you talk about—
I love talking about it.
But there was something that my producers told me, that you blame your daughter Brittany for your husband's—
Yeah, because she said that we was all in the living room, we was in there just talking and stuff, and he was there laying in the bed. And she said that she could have, you know, kind of like helped him, saved him or something, because she could have gave him the oxygen, put the oxygen machine on him, but she left. And she didn't do that. And that's the only thing that kind of like hurt me on that part. She should've done that.
So your husband was needing oxygen. He was on an oxygen tank?
No, he wasn't on it. They had brought one to the house in case he needed it.
Oh, got it. And so you're saying that you all were in the living room, he needed it in that moment, and you said—
She said when she went to the restroom in the room where he was that he needed, she said felt like he needed it. She said, "Dad, I'm finna get your oxygen." But she left out the door, she didn't give it to him. And when I went and used the restroom, it's like he kinda like gasped for air, but when I said, "James Hussman," he didn't respond to me. So I jumped and got in the bed with him, put my hand to his nose, felt his stomach, didn't nothing. But she was gone already, but then I had to call and let her know, "Your daddy gone." So I feel like you could've helped me, you could've saved him. If it wasn't your time to save him, you know, you could've been.
Okay, so how has James' passing affected your relationship with your kids?
Terrible. They love their daddy more than they love them me. They didn't love me. They don't love me the way they love him because it's whatever he say, it went with them. But now I can say something, it don't go. It's a whole different story.
So what are you here today for?
I'm here to get some help to save my family with them. I wanna save us.
You do wanna save your family?
Yeah.
You do wanna save it. So you don't like this dysfunction that you're in?
No, I do not.
Yeah, okay. Well, I wanna go ahead and meet one of your daughters. I wanna meet Sabrina. Everyone, please welcome Sabrina to the show.
How you doing, Sabrina? I'm fine, how are you? What should I say?
I know it's been hard for you 'cause you just lost your father 2 months ago. Sabrina, were you close with your father before he passed away?
Yes.
How close?
Very. We talked, we— I can ride by the house in the mornings, he's up on the porch. He's able to talk to without judging you. He'll give you good advice on what you need. My daddy been there. He's always been a father.
Yeah. But do you think that your mother is great as well? You know, I think you told my producers that she's such a giving person.
She does, she gives to Jamie and Bebe sometimes whenever they need it. Only when they borrow my money and they don't wanna pay back and I want my money back.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But your daughter's saying they're giving, you know what I mean? I know you're, I hear your point of view, but your daughter's saying you're giving. Your mother's a giving person?
Yeah.
Yeah. So even though you love your father, you also see the good in your mother?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I always help. Before my daddy passed, like he always said, Sabrina, no matter what Sabrina needed or what they needed, No matter if I had to go to work or whatever, I was always come through them. He told everybody that in the family. So sometimes I don't feel like she see it though.
Yeah, okay. Do you wanna heal your family? Is that why you're here?
Yeah, 'cause that's what my daddy said before he passed. He said he want everybody to be together 'cause at the end of the day, all you have is your family.
Well, I wanna bring Jamie to the show right now because I'm trying to figure out why there's this issue. Jamie, come on out.
She evil. She evil.
You said Jamie's evil?
She evil.
She's very evil. Jamie, welcome to the show.
How you doing?
I'm good. Your mother just said that she thinks you're evil. How does it make you feel to hear that?
I'm not evil, she evil. Like, it's, it don't feel, I don't wanna cry. Hold on. Tissue.
Here, tissue. I don't even hear you. How did it feel to hear that voicemail from your mother?
Okay, since I hear this all the time, I just laughed at it.
You hear this type of language all the time?
I hear it all the time, every day.
Why do you laugh when your daughters tell you this? Why do you think it's funny?
'Cause they funny.
Why? Jamie, do you think your mother's behavior got worse after your father left?
Yes, it got real bad.
In what ways?
She used to sit on the couch and mind her business, and if we get on her nerves, then she'll act up. Otherwise, Annette, soon as he walk through the door, get out. Get out. God, they evil. Mama, we not evil.
Is this a nervous smile?
No, it's about to make me go off smile.
All right, so your other daughter Crystal's in the audience. Crystal, how does it feel to see your sisters fighting like this with your mom?
Well, it makes me like, Sit down. She don't care about nothing. She don't. She put on this act. Look, you see how I'm acting? She put on this act as if she want a relationship with us. She don't want a relationship with us. You trying to make stuff better than it's not. Mama, don't do that.
Sit down.
Why? Why? Why? Why?
Hold on, hold on, hold on. Why you telling me to sit down? I asked her a question. That was me that asked her. Why are you mad at her for standing up?
'Cause she gonna talk about me. 'Cause she don't like to hear the truth. And when the truth come to her, she don't wanna hear it.
Your daughter's crying.
She always crying.
How are your daughters evil? I just want you to tell me, 'cause you keep saying they're evil. How are they evil?
They is.
Can you explain that to me?
'Cause they always got something against me. They say something bad against me. Mama, I'm honest. I can tell you. I said I don't wanna come up, bring her on the show to make her look bad. I really wanna work this, like make it work. I didn't wanna come here and bash. I didn't want the audience to be like, oh, she a bad person. No, you making yourself look bad. You said it. I am what I am. I'm gonna be what I am. No, you're not because you told somebody that you know that you pushing us away. Yeah, like you told somebody that. And I told you like, if you know that you pushing us away, why continue to do it? And you our only parent we got left. Like why would you do that?
Everyone, can we please welcome Brittany to the show? I think it's important to have all your daughters out.
Yes, sir. She got one. She got one.
Hi, Brittany, welcome to the show.
Hi.
So how does it feel to hear your mom say that you're the reason for your father's death?
It hurts. It hurts so bad. But That's who she is. She blame everybody but herself for all the stuff she did. I ain't got nothing to blame myself for. You left a bad message for Bibi too when you went and used, you bet you was the one for his death. Bibi was at her house crying. Like my mama, like you can't keep doing them like that. You can't blame that girl for my daddy death. You got that girl crying. And I called her and I was like, Mama, what you do to Bibi? She was like, don't be calling me taking up for nobody. This is my sister and you my mama, I'm asking y'all, What's going on? You let somebody else call your phone and tell you a lie. Like, did nobody say that you was dead? We don't want you dead. We want you alive. Every time I get paid, I take you out, don't I? Yeah. No. Every time I get paid, I take you out to eat, don't I? No. I always. What you do? You don't show nothing. You don't care. You don't care, Mommy, you don't. You wanna be lonely, do you? Do you wanna be lonely? You don't want us around, do you?
No. Brittany. You received a message from your mother that said she felt like you were the reason your father died.
No, I was in her face.
She was in her face.
We was in her house.
What was that like for you?
It broke me down. My sister had to come sit in front of me just because. And she was steady saying like, "It's your fault." And she was shaking her head like she doing now, laughing and shaking her head and said, "It's your fault." I'm crying. I'm telling her, "Mom, it's not." Like I already blamed myself because I walked in that room. I heard my daddy breathing like that. She said, "I heard him breathing like that all day. He been like that all day." I said, "Okay, well Mama." I went back in the room. I said, "Dad, I'll be right back. I love you and I'll be right back." He gave me his hand like this and I was like, "Okay, I'll be right back." I didn't come back straight back like I wanted to.
I stayed with my kids and she called me like about 10 minutes later and say, "He gone." So you weren't even able to talk about your feelings in the moment because your mother immediately started to accuse you?
No, she waited. It took a minute. I'm coming to her house all day, every day.
And then one day it started.
And then that day she just said it like, and I don't feel like that's right. I told her it's not right for you to blame me and I blame myself. That hurt me to the core. Like I can't stop thinking about that. That was on my mind all the time. It was like every day.
Yeah.
But we also gotta get something clear too. My daddy knew he was dying. Somebody gotta stop blaming the other person. People like the other person. Nobody killed him. Nobody killed him.
Anita, when you came on the show, you first said you wanna save your family, and then I saw an immediate switch as your daughters started walking out one by one. What was the switch?
Them. She act like the child. You wanna be a child. One more time, I'm gonna come over there and beat you.
What was the switch? Why did you all of a sudden, you said you was gonna—
I don't like him, girl bye. Well, get off the stage. You ain't left yet. I'm not leaving the stage. Well, don't holler about it.
You miss your husband.
That's the only thing I miss.
Okay, listen, I can see what's going on here. And the first thing is you are all grieving and you have not had any time to grieve. What has happened. You have lost your husband and your best friend. You have lost your father. I was taking notes as you were talking and I was realizing that, okay, she's pushing them away. She's doing things and you kept saying they love their father more. I wanted all of y'all, can one by one, can you tell your mother you love her?
Yeah, I love you, Mama. I love you, Mama. It's hard right now.
I know it's hard right now.
I do love her.
Do you love your mother?
Yeah, I love her to death.
Your children love you. When your husband died, the love didn't die with him. The love is still here.
Well, I feel like it is.
I know you do. I know you're grieving and you are hurting right now, but these hurtful words you're saying to your children is not gonna bring your husband back.
I know that.
Would your husband want to see y'all fighting on this stage right now?
No.
You're creating a narrative in your mind that's not true. It's not true. You are loved.
You said something right, Karamo.
Don't push your daughters away. You are loved and you deserve to be loved. You deserve to be loved and you deserve to grieve. You gotta receive it right now. Your family loves you. And it's still here. Your daughters love you. The love did not die with your husband.
Yes, it did.
It did not. It didn't. It did not. You don't have to use hurtful words and turn your back because you think the love is gone. The love is still here. Can you look at your daughters? You brought these women into this world. Look at them. They love you. Look at your daughters.
Hey girl.
Look at your daughters, they love you. For just one second, they're happy.
She look like she mad down there. She mumbling over here. You say something. And she crying up there.
It's because they're grieving. They're grieving. They're allowed to have feelings just the way you are, but that does not take away from their love for you.
I don't know about that.
When your mother starts saying hurtful things to you, I want your only response to be, be. Daddy loved you and I love you too.
But she used to treat him bad as well, right?
It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because what's gonna happen is you're going tit for tat. Y'all are going tit for tat right now when y'all are all grieving. The man that showed y'all all unconditional love is gone. And so now it's like, well, you did wrong, you did wrong. It's your fault. It's your fault. It's none of your fault that he passed away.
I don't blame myself.
None of your fault. I know you don't fully believe it. Your mother loves you.
I know she do.
Come sit with your sisters. You don't need to be in there.
Come sit with your sisters. You might better stay out there.
You're 22 and I know.
I'm only 23 years old. You gotta understand, from the time I was a kid, I've been getting cussed out. I've been getting called B words, all this. When I ask her for anything, she'll tell me no. If I ask my daddy, she cussing me out, telling him, Don't give that, don't give her nothing. It's always been like that. Nobody wants to grow up like that.
I know, you didn't deserve it either. You didn't deserve it.
We come around you like we bring you nothing but happiness and joy. Well, you say we don't. We don't. We do. And the minute she start yelling at us and we start crying, all she do is smile and laugh. Are you getting happy from our pain?
She's not. She's not.
Cry now.
You gotta stop with the hurtful words.
Hurtful.
Listen, your mother just said something hurtful. My knee done broke on something. This is gonna take deeper work than this moment. I'm gonna just be honest with y'all. This is more than, this is just more like y'all know this is my life's passion is helping people and I can't try to pretend I can fix this in 20 minutes.
Yeah.
I can't. This is deeper, especially you.
I won't be involved with none of you.
Yes, you will.
Not at the debate.
Yes, you will. No, I won't. Yes, you will.
No, we'll probably gonna—
Listen, listen everyone, listen everyone at home. You just can't fix it in a moment. And that's what we're seeing right now. We're seeing grief and we're seeing pain. And I promise you and I vow, I'm gonna try to work with you all to help you through this. But we cannot do this right now. Sometimes things just don't have a happy resolution.
It won't be fixed after today. Not in my house. Girl, I'll take your braid out your head. Mama, don't do it. I'll take your braid out your head.
Listen, I'm sorry y'all going through this. I'm sorry. Your mother refers to you both as monsters.
Yeah, she do.
How do you feel about that?
Honestly, let's just talk about it. I ain't touch nobody. But what can I do? My mother, she feels like we just a lost case. We grew up in foster care. So it's like, what are we supposed to do?
Kayla, how old are you now?
I'm 24.
24, okay. And Melody?
22.
22 years old, okay. So you both grew up in foster care?
Yeah.
Describe your relationship with your mom.
Me personally, I don't really have a real relationship with my mother. I don't really talk to her unless it's about my children. I just feel like I'm done with her. I grew up in the system, I aged out, I learned what it is to be in the streets. Yeah. And I learned what it is to feel like you don't have no mother or for somebody to tell you like, I tried but I lost you. There's nothing I could do. So as a child, I felt like I was always abandoned.
So it's gotten physical, obviously.
Yeah.
What happened?
Well, me personally, I put my hands on my mother one time, but this was like—
Is that with this woman?
No, that don't have nothing to do with me. She antagonized my little sister. Unfortunately, my sister couldn't be here today. But they got into a fist fight. I was on the phone listening. My mom fell and I heard she like hit the dresser or something. She went around town telling everybody that they beat the shit outta her. And ain't nobody beat your ass. You just sat up there and lied for everybody to feel sorry for you. Like you got these evil-ass kids. I understand you going through it. I understand we not that, you know, easy to deal with. But you never gave us a chance to sit down with us and tell us, are you okay? Is there something wrong with you?
As a mother to you.
As a mother. But you sat up there and bashed us, threw us to the street.
Melody, how do you feel about your mom?
As a grown woman, anybody who have a child, they should take, how you say, some accountability when they did wrong. Like, I'm 22, I work 14 hours. I don't know how I'm a monster. I take care after elderly people. I work in a hospital. I have a busy lifestyle. So I can't just sit here and take on my mom's life. You had 7 kids, we took 7 sins for each child. So I just felt like that's not fair. We all go through it.
That's very interesting words to say. You had 7 kids and we took 7 sins.
Yes, we did. 'Cause it's just like we all been through a hard thing. But one thing I can't understand about my mom's lifestyle is why can you never take accountability? Like why you could never see you're wrong as a grown woman?
My producers told me that she, you told them that she stole your identity.
Not like, she used my information for stuff like me and my sister stuff. The bills is $45,000. The bill is in my name. No matter how you wanna put it, you can have like welfare or whatever or however it goes, whoever name is on the bill, they're responsible. I'm 22, I'm not paying $45,000 debt that I didn't only do, you understand?
Life was tough growing up for you?
Yeah, it was. Like my mom knows, like I've been raped for 10 years, like, and she don't understand, like, you know?
You said you were raped?
Yeah, for 10 years in foster care. It's okay. I'm so sorry. It's just like in the sense—
It's not okay and I'm sorry.
No, it's not. But it's just like, it just showed me how the world can be and it just showed me that you have to defend yourself. Like you have to be there for yourself.
When you told your mom about your experience, about your experience in foster care and what happened. What was her response?
She was hurt. She was hurt. But it's just like, you can't do nothing. You put me in that situation. She tries to like make them believe like, okay, I love you. And then be like, get the fuck out and slam the door. Literally. Literally.
Yeah. You told my producer that you had to keep your transition from your mom.
Yeah. Due to the fact, 'cause my mom, she say things hurtful. You can't hurt me about my transition. I'm pretty. What you gonna say? I have what between my legs. Okay. It's pretty. It's very much pretty. You feel me? So I just feel like anybody who's a bigot in that area of society when people don't understand different, you're a bigot. No matter how you wanna put it, you're a bigot. Like you're close-minded. You don't care about it.
Understand, what do you two want from your mother today? 'Cause it sounds like accountability.
There's no accountability. She don't see where she goes wrong. Yeah, she do her, she tries her best, you still do wrong, you understand? Just because you're trying to cover up what you did, that doesn't mean you're still forgiven for what happened. You know what I'm saying?
I want y'all to think about that a little bit more as I invite your mother out right now. I've heard the girls' side of the story, and to be honest with you, I've been hearing Norma backstage this entire time. So now it's time to hear more directly what she has to say. So Norma, come on out. Hey Norma, nice to meet you.
Come, let's switch seats. We gonna switch seats.
Okay. Okay, so what do you have to say about what you heard?
That these kids are monsters.
Why do you call 'em monsters?
Because they're very disrespectful and they think that I'm a punching bag, I'm their target. So when they upset, they come for me.
Well, I wanna know what you were saying backstage 'cause I could hear you. Backstage, what were you saying?
That they feel like they can do whatever they want with me and it's okay. I've tried my best with them. I've told them multiple times how the situation was, but they think they grown and they believe that I abandoned them. I never abandoned them. If we gonna tell a story, tell it right. But don't sit up here. No, no, no, you tell it right. No, don't sit up here. No, no, no, I'm not gonna lie to you. No, no, let me tell you something. I'm not come here for all this extra help. Don't sit up and tell me. I'm not here for that, baby girl. I'm gonna punch you in your face. 'Cause it wasn't me. Who said it was you? So who was it? It was your sister. No, she didn't, Ma. Oh, she didn't put you in my face? Ma, stop lying.
I wanna know from you, how do you think you got to this point?
They feel like I'm the one of, I'm the bad guy of the picture. I've tried with them throughout all my life. You only look for me when you need me. Nobody needs you, Ma. Oh, you don't need me? But I raised your kids. You didn't. How the fuck you raised them? Look how beautiful that is. This is what this is about. This is the kids that you think that I'm gonna be a bad mom. Because you wanna talk to people like me who has kids. You act like one. I'm not a bad mom. I didn't come here to make sure I'm a bad mommy. And I said it, I'm not perfect, but I've never let these kids behind.
So you're saying your kids were in foster care and you were there?
Yes.
She was never there. How is that possible?
While they was in foster care, they was coming and going back and forth. We had visitation. Basically, all right, when we did get taken away, my mom, she did do, you know, she did do, Certain things she did do it. I will never take that from my mother. But once again, you have to grow up. People can't give you back kids or give you what you want when you're not going and putting no effort in. No effort, no effort. They would've gave you back your children if you was clean, you had a house, if you had a job, if you had everything as a stable woman.
I get it, you're right, you're very much right. Were you on drugs during that time?
Back then, yeah.
Okay then.
Yeah, but I did everything I could possibly do. I did it. But the problem is that this drags for a whole lot of fraud with the system.
Okay, so you told my producer that you feel like you were unfairly blamed.
They blame me for everything.
And you don't feel like that's fair?
I don't. And I don't owe them nothing because the minute you have all that energy to put your hands on me and hurt me like I'm a piece of crap, well, guess what? I don't feel nothing for you. I love them, but I can't be around them.
Norma, why did you call me? ACS on.
Tell her why did that happen. You— can you ask her why?
I did. She said she doesn't understand.
She didn't understand why? Will you tell this child the reason why I called ACS on this child? We're not going to talk about that. She left the kids alone in the house and was with a guy in the field while I was in Queens. I ran all the way from Queens to Red Hook because her daughter was outside by herself because they were alone. Exactly. We not doing that. We're not doing that straight like that. We're not doing that. Shut up. We're not doing that straight like that because you're a liar. That's why I got everything to back it up. And you still to this day can't tell the truth though.
Kayla, you brought a text exchange. You brought a text exchange between you and your mother. I want to see this text exchange.
This point you can't even spell. Listen, this is my point. Hold up, wait, let me show you. This is my point, you dirty ass little bitch. This is why I got recorded so people could see what type of time are you on, grateful. But blah blah, girl, blah blah, stop playing with me. This is what she does every time she don't get her way. The fuck outta here. This is not what it is.
I just wanna know, did you send it?
Yes, but you gotta see why. But you have to see why. If I scroll over on my phone, you will see the things, the things, and why we already have a lot of issues. She makes her life about you and the kids. You can't do that. You can't do that. You can't do that. So what? So what? You had 7 kids and you got all of them took in with you. Really? But really? Really? Do you know the reason why? Yeah. How many times Really? You don't?
I understand, I understand. I'm not arguing with you. I'm trying to see, I'm seeing your children's side. And one of the things about me is I'm always, always gonna be fair. I'm always gonna try to see other people's side. So I know you showed up here today. You had to have showed up for a reason. Why did you come?
Why do I come? Because I want justice and I want these people to believe and know that things that they say is not truth.
So you didn't come here to repair? No.
No, but I'm here. Yes, but apparently that's not what they want. That's not what they want. That's not what they want, how? How? Because look at your actions. What the fuck is you talking about right now? You telling me that you want me to freaking feel, I want you guys to really, really be, I'm sorry mom, or I be like, I'm sorry, but why? Sorry for what? For what? That's my point, for what? For me whipping your ass to be a grown ass woman?
Hold on. You feel like your daughters owe you an apology?
Huh?
You feel like your daughters owe you an apology?
Of course, because I'm the only one that's been there for them. What I owe her apology for?
What I owe her apology for?
Don't play with me.
I wanna know how you feel about the relationship.
Don't play with me, 'cause Sean can come out. I'll beat anybody up. Don't play with me. Don't play with me, Ma. Don't, don't play with me. Be who? You heard me.
All right, everyone, listen, there's a lot of family drama that's going on here. We're gonna take a quick break so we can unpack this. Do you wanna heal the relationship? A relationship with your daughters?
Yeah, but if it's gonna be like that, I don't know, probably.
The answer is just yes. The answer is yes.
Yes.
'Cause your daughters are in their 20s and they're in a lot of pain too.
Yeah, and so am I.
They need you to put your pain aside and just hear what they've been through. I wanna make sure y'all are taking baby steps. If I bring your daughters back out, can you just hear them without making any defenses?
Well, I'm not even gonna say nothing.
You will? So can I bring them back out? Mm-hmm. Okay. In the intention of healing. Yes. And so you'll be able to listen.
Yes.
I believe you. All right, can we bring, I wanna bring Kayla and Melody back out. Okay, so ladies, the floor is yours. You talk to her from your pain, from your hearts about what it is.
Just be a mom. I guess, like, you know, have a nurturing feeling. Be more attentive as a person, as a human, as a mom, I guess.
What do you need to say to your mother?
I try to understand her, but when she's wrong, I can't side with you.
What is she wrong about that you need her to hear?
That she don't love her kids.
Can you assure your children that you love them? Can you assure your daughters that you love them?
That I tell them every day of my life, I love them, I love them. When these kids don't call me and you gotta see, I call them and be like, what the fuck you calling me for? Who says that to you? You have said that to me. Your dead mother never said that. Don't play with me. Don't play with me. Don't play with me. You don't say, why you calling me for? Don't play with me.
It's the unfortunate part about this today is that there's too much pain here to unpack.
Yes.
And y'all are too close.
But it takes day by day. And this is just thought. I won't think about her. She's irrelevant. I don't care. —when it's her time to go to the king, don't call me. I don't care. I don't care.
I don't care.
You grow up. Grow up. But, Mom, it's what you said. It's what you said is what happens to you in your life. So it's OK for you to call us monsters? So what are you—
So can we start there? Can we start here?
So what are you— Hold on.
This is what we're going to do. This is what we're going to do here. Can you at least, as their mother, when you leave this show— because I'm about to end this now— can you at least from this point on realize that calling— Calling your daughters or your children monsters, the other children as well, they're not here, is not going to help you get the relationship you want with them. So can you commit to not calling them monsters anymore? Or demons. Can you tell them you will not call them out their names like that anymore?
I won't call them out your names no more.
Can you do it in a way that, no, we're not gonna clap for that.
No, we're not gonna clap for that. I was capping. I won't call them out their names no more. Ma, be genuine though. But I'm telling you. Do you mean it though? Just say you're not gonna call us names, that's it. No, I'm not gonna call you a monster. Yeah, no.
Well, there we go. There we go. There we go. I wish y'all the best of luck. Thank you so much.
I really do, sincerely.
And I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
I love you.
All right, everyone. Yeah. What was your experience like in foster care?
I was bullied. My hair was falling out. My grandma took pictures of bald spots.
There's a lot of pain and trauma. So I know you got out of foster care and you found You finally went back home. What made you leave home at 15?
I left because originally me and my mom had agreement. I sat her down, I said, "Stuff going on in the house, I can't deal anymore." Mm-hmm. And I wanna graduate high school. Every weekend I would go over to my grandmother's. Yes. And I would do homework. And this one particular night, my mom called my uncle and told my uncle not to come. Didn't let me know. So I was just sitting there waiting for hours. So I had made up a plan. She didn't care about whether I graduated high school, so I don't give a shit. I bundled up about 7 outfits and my laptop and put it in a trash bag and left that night. Yeah. And I never came back. And you moved in with your grandmother at that point?
At that time. And how was it living with your grandmother?
My mom had distanced me from my grandmother and I didn't know my grandfather had cancer.
All right, so it has been 15 years since you've had a conversation with your mom. I wanna know what is the one thing you want from her today?
I want to tell her everything that I didn't get a chance to tell her.
So you just needed her to hear you, that's it? Yeah. You don't need anything past that?
And I've struggled throughout my childhood for her to listen to me. 'Cause I used to sit down and tell her like, "Hey, I really want you to change. I don't want temporary fix." And right now, being a mother on my own, I just want to feel complete.
I know your mother was on drugs for many years. How many years of your life was she on drugs?
I would say for all of it.
All of it. How old are you, if you don't mind me asking?
I'm 24. So 24.
So at least 24 years plus she's been on drugs. Do you still think she's using today? Yeah. You do still think she's using today. Has she ever made an effort during that time of 25 years to reconnect with you?
I would say yes and no, just because during the time when I left, first left, I cut all contact from my mom.
Has your mom never been involved in your daughter's life at all?
My daughter is 1, and I would say she hasn't really seen her over 5 times. My mom was not there at my baby shower. She wasn't there at the first. I didn't really even want to tell her I was pregnant. Yeah. Because I figured like she wouldn't care.
Does she have a relationship with you? Does your daughter have a relationship with your grandmother? Yes. Does your mother have a relationship with her mother, your grandmother?
Not really. My grandmom is the one who really is the mediator between me and my mother.
I understand. What are the 3 things that you want your mom to hear you about today?
I wanna have a mother to mother conversation with her. And I also wanna have a daughter to mother conversation with her. Certain things that I witnessed as a child, I should not have witnessed.
So that's a good thing. So you want her to know things I witnessed, I shouldn't have.
Things that I've gone through and situations that she had put me in with the men that she was dealing with. She put our children at risk. I want her to know that that's mother to mother, that is not okay. And I'm not going to do that to my daughter.
What is the second thing you want her to know?
I want her to know as a daughter, the life that she lived affected me. In what way? A little clarity. In what way? Emotionally, I was depressed. I didn't have guidance like I should've. Like I didn't even have, being a mother now, it's so much things that I, Like my grandma had to apologize to me because she didn't know that I didn't know certain things as a woman.
Because you didn't have the guidance.
Exactly. Yeah. It's not my fault for not knowing. But now that I do know, I'm going to teach my daughter.
Yeah. Yes. Give it up for that.
So. Give it up. So. I don't want my daughter to ever feel like She's alone.
For me, what is the third thing you want her to know?
Just because you have a parent does not mean you be a parent.
So I wanna know what Haneefa's mother Sarita has to say about all this. Everyone please help me welcome Sarita to the show.
I've had a very traumatic life and my daughter has to understand that I didn't ask for my life to be like that. There were things that happened to me that I had no jurisdiction over would cause a lapse in having a relationship with her. I'm grateful that my mother, even though she had an addiction.
Your mother was addicted to drugs? Yes, sir. How long was she addicted?
Over 21 years or so. Yes.
So for the majority of your childhood, you grew up in a household where your mother was addicted to drugs? Yes, sir. Got it. When did you start using drugs?
Oh, I started at a young age, about 15. I truly apologize to her for some of the things that she had to go through. But I never wanted her not to be educated. That's something that I always fought for. I always— Yo, you is very funny right now. Always provided— Excuse me, you spoke. Give me respect. I am your mother now. Now. Now you wanna use that title. If you wanna rekindle a relationship, you brought me here to try to embarrass me, you're embarrassing yourself. No, I did not come here to embarrass you. I've established a lot with myself. But I want you to be real. Excuse me. Excuse me. You talking about yourself. My whole childhood you talking about yourself, bro. Right. And you don't give a shit. It's not my fault. I don't care. You're not gonna fault me for that. That's like the magic bullet. I'm not biting the magic bullet. You are the only parent in the house, bro. I'm spellbound. I'm not— You the only parent in the house. That's why I gotta do the shit I gotta do for my daughter. My brother was murdered and you're not gonna tell me that I was mobbed at that point. Why? Why you talking about yourself, bro? 'Cause you think you're being selfish right now. 'Cause you're screaming at me. You should respect me.
Let her take a moment. We can have a conversation 'cause it's the pain. It's pain. So what I wanna do first of all is because I'm, again, I think the thing we forget about when you have mother-daughter relationships is first I wanna go ahead and acknowledge everything you just said. You told me that you wanted her to hear you and wanted you to have a dialogue.
Grandmom apologized to you. I never went into— Oh, hold on. At my mother's face, screaming at my mother, cursing at her. Where's your apology? In front of a national audience. Where's your apology? Where's your accountability? There is respect. Where is that? Where is that? I have a condition. You're still in denial and delusion. I have a condition. I'm trying not to get angry. You know what, I'm gonna step up because I cannot. You should have been stepping up. I'm gonna step up and stand on the side because I'm not gonna allow my child to smack her hands in my face and curse at me. Here you go with that. Because I never took and cursed at her one time. Time and I think I deserve more respect than what she's given me. I'm gonna, I'm gonna. Basically, I'm doing a lot, way less than the behavior you displayed to me.
Hanifa, I know you're angry right now, but you said, I asked you what you want from your mom and you said you want her to hear you. Your daughter needs you just She needs you to hear 3 things. She needs you to hear that she feels like you put her at risk. She needs you to hear that she had a hard life, which is causing her to feel depressed. And she also wants you to know that she didn't deserve this. You said when you got with your grandmother, your grandmother had to apologize to you because there was things as a woman you didn't know how to do. I'm gonna just tell you this right here, and this is not an excuse. She did not know how to do it. So in your mind, you know how to do it now. So you're looking at her of like, How is it that you didn't know how to do this? How is it that you did not know how to do this for me? She didn't know. You deserve to have it done.
See, that's where I'm saying again, like I understand, like she didn't know, but it's just like the love for my child, I got so much more than to damage her. I know. I'd rather cry it out, even through postpartum, I'd rather cry that shit out. I know. To hurt my baby.
I know, I know, I get it, I get it. I understand.
And that's what I'm saying, like I understand her pain, but now it's time to talk about my pain, what the fuck I went through. You never experienced use of a drug? Have you ever experienced a use of any drug? I smoke weed for my anxiety. Okay. That's the only thing I do 'cause I dare not touch another thing looking at you. So what makes you think you better than me? You said you never use drugs. Because I'm doing the job for my daughter, that's why. My daughter can, I can stand and say that I watched my daughter walk. Can you stand and say that you watched me walk? Well, I couldn't walk. Okay then. I couldn't walk. Okay then, okay then, don't go there, don't go there.
The reason is that question is that because the drugs, the reason I'm bringing this up again is the reason about the drugs is because she was in a cloud and I get the love you have for your daughter and I get Listen, it's going to take years for you to understand that your mother was in a cloud and that's why she couldn't give you what you deserve.
No, I do under— Like, I do understand that.
Okay, so let me use different language. Let me use different language. It's going to have to take you years to feel in your heart. You are a smart woman. I know you understand, but there's something when the mind and the heart don't connect and that's what's going on. I'm telling you. And you're right for your pain.
It's like, You were in pain. Why inflict that on me knowing that you were in pain? You were damaging your child.
Stop right there, stop right there. I know you've done it before, I know you've done it before, but can right now you acknowledge to your child, I'm sorry that I inflicted this pain on you?
I wouldn't be here.
I know, but tell her.
And this is like hard to be in front of someone or these people here with someone Sincerity.
My sincerity is for my present.
My sincerity is my future. I cannot apologize for my past. You know why I can't apologize for my past? 'Cause pain upon affliction causes addiction. I never meant to inflict any pain on her. I truly apologize if you feel some type of way about what I was traumatized about and how it may have been a reflection on you. Because I— That's your apology? Only, I only could, I only could, what am I supposed to do, get on a knee? Just say I'm sorry, bro. Can you just say I'm sorry? Sorry's not good. Sorry's not good. I apologize 'cause I can never be sorry because God put me here to be in front of you right now for my future, not my past. Yes, yes. All right, whatever. I ain't even gonna accept no apology 'cause you ain't giving me one, obviously. I'm just gonna move past it. [Speaker:KARAMO] Yes.
Unfortunately, in this moment, I do agree with your daughter because I was hoping to give you an opportunity to just acknowledge. What she said to me is she just wants acknowledgement. That's it. And as parents, even in our darkest moments when we have clarity, and you have clarity today, that's when we have to step up and just give acknowledgement. And sometimes an acknowledgement and a pause psychology is really a great first step. And I understand that you have this wall built up and these things going on that you can't go there, but until you're able to go there, she's gonna have to, she's gonna continue to feel this pain.
And I'm going to remove you from my life. It's a lot of self— And my daughter's life. I was already removed. There's a lot of selfishness. There's a lot of selfishness and control. I cannot be controlled or feel like somebody is trying to remove me. With things that they're not challenged with. Okay, got it. Listen. She have not yet to feel how it feels to try to eat food and still be hungry and can't chew enough to suffice on it, okay?
So this is what I say. I really thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate you so much for telling me your side. Thank you. Thank you. Yes, have a good one now. I'm gonna talk to her. Thank you so much, seriously.
Yeah.
So listen, I asked your mom to leave because I saw what you're going through. You already set the boundary of we're not talking no more. You don't have her in your life. And I think that's a healthy boundary for you to have right now. That is a very healthy boundary for you.
But I don't want to go back to being angry because I don't have the mother and my daughter doesn't have the grandmother.
But let me tell you, Vanessa, no, no, no, no, no.
So it's like I bounce between the 15-year-old being angry and the grown woman me. Yeah.
So let me tell you how you help that. In your mind, you have to grieve the mother that you needed. Because the thing is, you're gonna keep toggling back and forth between being this grown woman who's trying her best and that 15-year-old girl until you grieve that relationship. That relationship has died. And until she's able to take steps to give you what you need, you have to grieve that relationship while also focusing on your boundaries. That's what's going to heal you. I tried to give you the healing from your mother, but unfortunately she's not in a space still to give you that. We witnessed it. When you lose something and you're like, "Oh man, I'm pissed, I'm sad," the first day and the second day you're like, "Well." It's just hard. I know it is and it's a process.
'Cause it's the only, my grandma, she's my rock. I know, but no, that's a lie.
She's not your rock. You are your own rock. Don't fool yourself. And this is the truth. Don't fool yourself into believing that somebody outside of you is your rock. You are your own rock. I heard it when you said at 15, I made the decision to leave. You have always been your own rock. And so don't ever put that external because it takes away from your own strength and from the fact that you've always tried to do the best for yourself.
I'm just tired of being disappointed by her.
Yeah, grieve it. Instead of saying I'm tired of being disappointed, say I'm no longer disappointed. Change the language. Grieve that relationship. It died already. Set clearer boundaries and also remind yourself that I am my own rock. I always have been. You hear me? Those are the steps that I can tell you that's gonna allow you. So just remind me again, what you gonna do when you leave the show?
Grieve the relationship so I can heal.
Then what you gonna do? And shut the door and leave it there. Boom. And then what you gonna do next? Set boundaries. Great. And then the third thing is—
And be my own rock.
Remind yourself that you always been. I have to hear from you what happened when you were in the hospital because just getting those facts from my producers, it was jarring to me.
I was in a coma for a whole month. I did not get out. Then when I got out, everything was gone. My car was repoed, all of my funds was in storage and I was homeless for those 7 months. Oh my gosh.
How did you find out that you had lost everything?
I wasn't aware of anything that was going on while I was in the coma.
And who was the one who told you? My daughter. And how did you learn that your other children were homeless?
When I got out the hospital. They were living from house to house.
Why would your daughter make you homeless and make your other kids homeless? That's her siblings, right? Yes. So why would she want her siblings to be homeless? Be homeless and why would she wanna do this to you?
'Cause she only thinks about herself. She's very selfish.
What has she done in the past?
A lot. Let me give you an example. My daughter had a BBL. I took care of her and nursed her back to health. Okay. When I came out this coma, I wanted the same love that I show my daughter.
Is this your oldest child?
Yes, she's my oldest.
Okay, so what did she say when you came outta coma and you you asked her about your other kids and why you were homeless?
When I came out the coma, I didn't know that I was homeless. Her plans were to go to Dallas to move all of my things out.
So then where did you stay after you got out the hospital?
After the hospital, I really wanted to stay with my daughter because I felt like that's where I wanted to be, with her. But I stayed with everybody else. Me and my kids.
Did your daughter not let you stay with her?
When I did come, it wasn't sincere.
So she eventually let you stay with her after you had to float around from place to place?
Alone, it took forever. But the whole time that I was in this coma, when I got out the hospital, my daughter had her own house, her own car, her own job, and everything. Everything going for herself. And I just wanted my daughter to take care of me the way I take care of her.
So how were things when you were living with your daughter?
So it became to the point she told me get out. So I packed me and my other kids and now by the grace of God, I have my own house.
So, I want you to tell me about your daughter Alexis.
I describe her as a person that she's out for herself. She not loving. She don't help me the whole time that I was in the hospital. I wanted my kids to be there. I wanted the ones that I loved and raised to be there.
And how old is your oldest daughter? How old is Alexis?
She just turned 23 this year.
I can only imagine what you're going through as a mother. And I think it's time to meet Alexis. So everyone, please welcome Alexis, your daughter, to the show. Well, don't boo her, we haven't heard her side of the story. Alexis, how are you doing today? I'm good, how are you? I'm good, thank you. So I need to know from you what happened when your mother was in a coma last year, 'cause we just heard a whole lot from her point of view.
For her to say that I was never there, I was. When we got there, I had to make legal decisions. They were saying that, you know, she passed away and they brought her back again, and that they had to do like procedures and surgeries and stuff, and it was up to me 'cause I'm the oldest. I'm sorry. And so, for me, for her to say that, that just really hurts my feelings because Like to be in that position and start trying to figure out what to do. This your mother in the hospital? Yeah. That was when I went to see her. Got it.
Oh, Mama. 'Cause you were 22 at the time of this?
Yeah, I was 22. I had just recovered from a bad car accident. Then my mom got sick a week later, so It's just a lot of stuff was going on during this time.
Why does your mom think that you're the one to blame for losing her other children?
Because she always blames me for a lot of stuff.
And for losing everything, 'cause she blames you for losing her apartment, for losing her car, for the kids being separated. Why do you think she blames you for losing everything?
I just don't think she considers it from a different perspective. Like for instance, her apartment, And I was told by a sibling that, "Oh, Mom has to be outta here by a certain time. Her lease is about to be up." So I used money that I had to get a U-Haul and get her stuff and put it in a storage. But that happened way after the fact, later on. So my brothers and sisters were still at the house. The lights were on, the water. I made sure they had groceries. I just didn't want them to see my mom like that every day. But I went to the hospital every day to see her. And they only let me see her for 30 minutes because she was in intensive care. But I was there and she doesn't understand that that still messes with me.
So when it comes to the apartment, you are in a space where you're like trying to be proactive.
Yes.
You're thinking they're about to kick her out, so let me try to make the decision to get her stuff into storage. Yes. Is that what you're saying to me?
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.
And then what happened with the car?
And then for the car, she was upset because I didn't pay her bills, but I didn't know where she bought her car, where her car insurance was with. I didn't have any of that information.
Hold on, I wanna get my audience's opinion on this. So what's your opinion on all this? I mean, I'm gonna ask you, do you think your daughter was supposed to take care of you and the kids? I would've did it for her. Your daughter's 23 years old, or 22 at the time. What capabilities does a 22-year-old have? I'm telling you, at 22 years old, for me, I don't know if I would've had the capacity if I would've saw my mother in the state that I saw you in, be able to make clear decisions. Do you see her side on that?
I feel you on that.
Come on down. You look great.
This girl was 22. She was being the mother to your kids. She was providing for them financially and also make life decisions for you. Like, don't you think you're expecting way too much of her? Maybe you feel that way. I don't feel that way. She was doing the best that she could. You didn't see that? I never said it. I appreciate everything she did.
All right. I mean, because there's a bit of a different thing here that I'm seeing. It's like one moment it's like my daughter didn't do enough, but then you said that you do appreciate what she did. I've never told her I didn't.
Okay. I didn't help her get her house that she have, but I did turn around and give her one of my old vehicles. Vehicles. And yeah, it may not be the best vehicle and it may be beat up. She did help me with one payment and then she sent some money towards it, and I ended up— when I saved up enough money— girl, you sitting up here lying. The devil gonna see all through that, baby, because you're lying about it. You sitting here holding the title while you talk about the money. But it's petty and materialistic like you say, but some things you do to me as your mother— what do I— is not right. What did I do to you? It don't matter, we ain't gonna even talk about it. I'm waiting, I wanna hear this. When I came home on the 21st, was you there? No. Did you go to any of my 5 appointments for 5 months? Were you there? No. Wasn't me and your sisters and brothers living house to house? How is that my fault when I told you that they can move up? But if you loved us, wouldn't you say, "Okay, Mom, I'm gonna take care of them"? If I loved y'all, you feel like I'm obligated to take care of y'all or not? Take care of me. —take care of me. No, no, I'm not talking about— that's not my job. When it comes to Mama, I'm gonna take care of Mama. That's not my job. You're not understanding. That's not my job. I wanted to live my own life and still have a baby. Running away? I already knew that when you went. Some of the things she doing is not how I raised her. Some of the things she doing, some of the things she say, towards me. I have always been there. I have always loved her. What do I say? I go to the moon and beg for her.
What is it that she says?
What do I say to you that hurts you? You don't say— It's a lot of stuff you say. Well, 'cause I can name some of the stuff you say to me that has stuck with me. Well, name 'em. Okay, for instance, I opened up to her and I had told her why I was so depressed as a kid. Things that happened in my life and she, I'm scared to say this, I had almost got the R word and then I told her when I was younger. You never told me that. Yes I did. No you didn't. I was 17 years old. I was a junior in high school.
I wouldn't even look at this 'cause your daughter is being vulnerable right now.
She didn't tell me that. But that's not all. If she had told me that, trust and believe a lot of things that I've taught my kids.
But she told you right now and I got as a third party party. I got to witness your behavior in this moment. I don't remember that. So Patsy, what I'm gonna say to you—
Why is you lying?
Patsy, what I'm gonna say to you is you gotta do some self-reflection. Do you want to have a better relationship with your daughter? She don't want none with me. My question wasn't what she wants. My question was what do you want? Sure. Patsy, what are you thinking about?
I'm done. I know that hurts.
Listen, you have to start grieving the fact that your mother's not gonna be able to give you what you deserve. And I know that sounds weird to say, like, I gotta grieve that my mother can't be a mother for me? The answer is yes. Because I can see you trying to make strides to get yourself a better life., but you're always gonna be held back and always gonna be sucked back in because your mother has this sort of hold on you because you're still believing that she can give you what you deserve. And unfortunately, she's not in the place yet. So you have to continue to do what you have to do to continue to have your life. You hear me? You did not deserve this relationship with your mother. You didn't deserve it. She's coming back? What does she wanna say? What's her thoughts? Now, Patsy, before you come out here, I'm gonna ask you one question. Are you willing to open up and accept what your daughter said? Yes. You are? Because if you're not willing to it, I'm not gonna be able to have you come back out. Yeah, I'mma open up. Okay. Come on back out then. So what can you open up with your daughter with right now?
That I cannot take away nothing. That whatever I've ever done to you, I want you to forgive me because I have loved you since birth. I am so proud of you. Whatever I did, I did to make you stronger so you won't have to depend on nobody. Depend on nobody but yourself in life. I love you. I don't never want you to think your mama don't love you. You all I have. I don't have my kids' daddy no more. Barely I do for my mama. You feel me? I go out the way for my mama. So if I ever hurt you, I'm asking you this one time, will you please forgive me? I can't change the past. I only can look forward to our future. Ma, I can forgive you, but what makes this time different? Like, you done said this before and you still haven't changed. All right, well, I don't know. I'm telling you that I'm asking for your forgiveness.
So you brought her here and you're talking about all the things that happened once she was there. Can you acknowledge that your daughter did not intentionally try to get rid of your car and get rid of your apartment?
I don't know. She's young, so she didn't know what to do. I thank her for what she did do. She didn't know what to do.
So can you acknowledge that your daughter did not Intentionally get rid of my car?
I acknowledged it.
And can you acknowledge that your daughter did not intentionally try to have your other children homeless? This is why I said before, Ms. Patsy, there needs to be some self-reflection.
I can't. Acknowledge that one because like I said, when I got out the hospital, my daughter went on about her way.
You're not gonna let this go. So what I'm gonna say to you again is that the only way this is gonna work for you is that you're gonna have to do some self-reflection because the apology that you came out here with, unfortunately for me, was performative. That's why I said to you, you're gonna have to grieve that right now she's not able to acknowledge and give you what you need. Your daughter is a child in the situation and as much as you expect have expectations for her of what she should have done. At the end of the day, the only thing that she was supposed to do was be by your side and say, "I love you, Mom," and wish that you were alive. She didn't have to, unless you left some directive around, that's why wills, that's why trusts, those things are enacted so that she could know exactly what to do. Unless you do that, a 22-year-old should never have that pressure on her. You gotta keep doing what you gotta do, all right? You have to grieve, you have to grieve. But as you're grieving, you have to know that you do deserve a life where people see you for what you've done and that you know that you are of value. You understand?
A few months ago, I was going through my preteen's phone and in her search history, I came across a video of her 20-year-old sister having sex with her boyfriend on a porn site. I was actually at a friend's house and we were I was going through my kid's phone and she was going through her kid's phone. And when I found that, I told her, I just got up and I just told her I couldn't even stay there anymore. I said, I gotta go. And I said, I'm sorry. She was like, no, you need to breathe. And I was like, I couldn't, I couldn't do it. It was just, it, it broke me. It broke my soul. It broke my heart. And it scared me. What she's losing is so much more than what she's temporarily gaining. So I've never really been a real big fan of her boyfriend. All I could think of is that it's his idea, that he did it, that he's sitting here pimping out my daughter. It's not going to help her get into her modeling career. It's just going to do nothing but lead her to a path of self-destruction, and this is not what we have planned for her. I'm a grown adult and I can do what I want to do, and it's not my fault that she saw that. Yes, I'm doing this and I'm the one, but I'm making money. I'm making $20 grand a month.
So when did you decide to start doing online sex work?
Um, it was about a year ago when I actually started getting into it. It's just grown and grown from something to nothing. I put a lot of work and effort into what I'm doing. Like, it's business. It's not just me looking for attention or trying get a different career or let it lead me into a different lifestyle. It's just me doing what works, and I'm young, I'm hot, like, so why shouldn't I?
But your mother also said in that video that you feel like it's going to lead you to a different path.
Yes, I would like it to lead me into something else, but I think it would stay around forever. It's, it's what's working, and you're in college right now. Yes, I'm a college student. If this is my time to be selfish and live my life and and have fun, so why can't I?
Okay, okay, that makes sense to me. How do you feel about what your mom had to say about your boyfriend?
Um, it's not her right to dictate who I see and what I do, and it's not even his fault that I'm going into this life. Like, I'm the one who proposed it. I started this.
I brought the idea to him. How's your relationship with Colin?
We've been on the rocks for basically since we started. I was— at the beginning of our relationship, I was a habitual cheater. And I slept with his best friend. I slept with so many different guys and I just feel bad, but I've changed from that person.
Why were you cheating on him?
I felt insecure in myself mostly. I was an ugly duckling in high school and I didn't know where my priorities were at. I didn't know, I was just a kid. I didn't know anything about life or relationships and I was just, I thought I was just having fun. Having fun and doing what I do, but.
Thanks for being honest about that and being vulnerable with that because you, since you've come out, you've had a lot of confidence, you've had a lot of power with you, which I respect. But to know that you could acknowledge that the reason you'd made certain choices was because there was a point in your life where you felt like your self-esteem wasn't there.
Yeah, I was in the wrong. I definitely was. Like what I did to him is wrong in all ways and I acknowledge that and I know that and I wanna grow from that, but it seems he just can't move on. Move on.
So you are on OnlyFans with him, correct? Just only with him? Only with him. Okay, got it. Well, first I wanna meet your mom. Erica's mother is joining us remotely. So everyone please welcome Chrissy to the show. Chrissy, you've been watching. How do you feel about what has been said?
A little hurt and a little like she's got it a little bit wrong. I don't have anything wrong. I'm my own person. I have my own life and I do what I do and I'm making money. You're not paying my bills, you're not paying my rent. You do, but you also I also have two little sisters that look up to you. Okay. And it makes it very hard for me to be proud and brag about what my kid's doing. Well, you don't have to tell them anything. Just tell them how much I'm making a month, and that should be enough for them. Not when it's at the cost it's at. It's hurting your relationship. It'll always hurt your relationship. It'll always fall. No, I understand. You don't have to do— I understand how you feel, but I know what I'm doing, and I'm a grown adult, and it's my body, my choice. That is the path of destruction. I think you should mind your business. It causes— This is my life. This is my life and I'm doing what I do. You want to say you're insecure about your boyfriend talking to other women? What do you think porn does to women? Some of them, I guess not all women, don't get me wrong, but it makes us feel insecure. They're told to look like me. Do you see me, Mom? Do you see me, Mom? Do you see what I look like? Yes, you are beautiful. This is the time of my life where I should be doing what I want and then making money. You're a little scared to tell me you don't think your kids will find it? It's just a business exchange, Mom. It's not anything big. It's not something that you should be worried about. It's just online. It's just online.
Why do you think your daughter decided to do sex work?
I don't know. She got sexually abused right before it, and I think that made her not value her body anymore. And so that's why she did it. That doesn't take away value from myself. Yes, it does. She took control back of her body 'cause that man took it. So now nobody's gonna take it. She's just gonna make money off of it.
Do you feel like that's what you're doing? That you're taking control back of your body because of a situation where you were molested?
No, I don't feel that way. Yes, it happened and it was an unfortunate situation, but that's not why I'm doing what I do. I'm doing what I'm doing for money and influence. It's like, it's a start to a big, something bigger.
Why do you blame her boyfriend?
Because I thought that he dragged her down that path. But in all actuality— No, it was all me. She has a choice. Whether it was his idea or not, she had a choice.
Mom, we're gonna get back to you in a second. I wanna meet Erica's boyfriend, Cullen. So Cullen, come on out. How do you feel about what she's been saying?
I don't agree with any of it for the most part.
Her saying that she's done all of this, that she's making $20K a month, that she works so hard.
I work so hard. I sit at home and I do all this all day long.
We do it together. So you feel like you're not getting support in your relationship? I'm not getting support, I'm not getting loyalty, I'm not getting anything.
You are getting loyalty. I've been loyal to you for the past 2 years. I told you when I changed that I would stop. I told you that when I would change that I would stop.
Well, let's get to the unlocking the phone. So, Erica, so we're gonna unlock your phone first. All right, so Cullen, you want to know if Erica has been meeting up or chatting with other guys. Erica says she is not. My Unlock the Phone investigators searched her apps and found Erica is telling the truth. There is no evidence that she has engaged in any flirtatious activity. Even her Tinder, her Hinge, her Bumble have all been deleted since 2020. Mm-hmm. Kellan, you want to know if Erica has met up with anyone in the past week or going anywhere near her college. Erica says she did not. My Unlock the Phone investigators searched her GPS and found Erika is telling the truth. There was no GPS evidence that she was meeting up with guys to cheat on Cullen this past week. Told you. Cullen, you also wanna know if Erika has been communicating with any of the guys she has cheated with. Erika says she is not. My Unlock the Phone investigators searched her DMs and found Erika is not telling the truth. I found at least one of her past hookups, but nothing sexually explicit. So they were talking, but nothing sexually explicit. What our unlock the phone investigator did find was a text chain between a male in Erica's phone and what seemed to be you pretending to be Erica and using her phone. Do you remember this? Wait, where?
Can you explain that again?
Sure. Can I get the evidence back? So basically what we found, what I thought was interesting was we found you talking to another guy in her phone pretending to be Erica. To be her and then you immediately then had to say, "This is me, her boyfriend talking to you." So you grabbed her phone to talk to other guys? Yes. Okay, great.
It's happened before too.
But then you also then were calling her like hoe and all these other names while doing that. So you do remember this? Yes. So do you think that's appropriate behavior?
No, no, it was inappropriate.
And I'd like to take the opportunity to apologize for names I've called you, but— There's no need to apologize right now. Y'all are in a toxic cycle. That's not gonna help this. Cullen, we also asked you to unlock your phone, but you refused. Are you fucking kidding me? But Erica, he had a confession for you that he wanted to tell you something. Take a look. I've been telling you for a year that I wanna be in an open relationship, and I'm serious. You cheated on me for 3 years, humiliated me for 3 years, slept with my friends, and I'm not taking it anymore.
I'm taking my manhood back. If I wanna sleep with other women, that's what I'm gonna do.
And I'm not gonna unlock my phone because you're not gonna like what's in there.
Are you for real? Like, are you actually kidding me? That's what it is at this point. 3 years of cheating. You just heard Karamo say that there is nothing in my phone, that I've changed and that I've been loyal, and now you're just gonna switch up and you're not even gonna show me.
I have access to all of that because I manage you, Erika.
I already see all those daily.
So? This relationship is obviously toxic and has become transactional. You both know that. He's saying that if he doesn't get an open relationship, he is going to stop doing OnlyFans with you. And you clearly don't want an open relationship. No. And I don't think you should be forced into one. So does this mean you're gonna stop doing this page and do work on your own? Or what does this mean?
Because— I guess I might have to do it up by myself now.
So you're making the decision right now to end end this or no?
I think we have to.
Are you going to continue the OnlyFans?
It's— yeah. So how will you continue?
How will you break up while also continuing the OnlyFans? How would that work?
I can continue doing her thing and she'll also own a percentage of the page and my work, and I'll still have to because she's going to use my content as well.
Are you happy with the fact that she wants to? We've already talked about all this. That's what I'm is I'm not controlling. She can do whatever she wants. It's always been up to her. Good luck to you. I'm gonna ask you to step off the stage really quickly. I just gotta wrap this up. Thank you so much. There's so many things going on here with your mom, with you and him, and also with your own self. He's not, you two are not gonna have the healthy relationship you want, okay? Mm-hmm. You know that. Your mother loves you. I think she's worried about you and she doesn't know what's going on and she's a little lost. And I think the more that you can open up to her and the more you can communicate, the better off. I hope you really do end this relationship regardless of the financial gain you're getting. This is gonna keep you both trapped. Please do yourself a favor. No matter what, how much $20,000 you're making, it's not worth the change of who you are. Okay? Okay. All right, I wish you the best of luck, seriously. All right? So during the show, we lost connection connection with Erica's mom, Christy. And we've got everyone back now and she desperately wants a chance to resolve the situation with her daughter. Let's continue the conversation. So please welcome Erica and Christy back to the show. So Christy, what do you think about what was said during the show?
I have a whirlwind of emotions from it. I don't think she has the comprehension that she needs to know what she's doing to her future and to her life.
What will fix the relationship with your daughter in your opinion?
For her to stop doing what she's doing to get her— I don't need to stop, mom. I'm doing what I'm doing and it's my life and I'm doing what I care about and what I'm passionate about and what makes me the most money. And this is what's working and this is what I'm gonna do for as long as I can run with it. That is for the privacy of your bedroom, not for the world to see.
I get it as a parent, when your child makes choices that you don't agree with or that you don't understand, What we forget is that, and I like to use specific language, we actually end up having to grieve that dream or that life that we had for them. And that's what you're in right now. You're outside of any embarrassment you may be feeling or questioning your own parenting, you're grieving this life that you thought your child was gonna have. And that's part of what you're dealing with.
You're aware of that? I am, yes.
If your little sister followed in your footsteps, would you be okay with it?
I mean, not my sister. It's weird to think about. And I understand like where she's coming from and how like it can affect like just people who are like close to me.
But still it's the grand scheme of things. So don't, I just wanna say there because Erica, as you know, when you were on here, I don't judge your choices at all, but I'm not your mother. And so it's a different thing. And so what I was trying to show there is I want to get to a place where you can maybe understand what your mother is feeling. So when I asked you if you'd want your sister to follow in your footsteps, you had the same hesitation your mother had. And so I asked you that because I want you to see, and I'm not telling you to feel bad about your choice, I'm not trying to make you feel bad about your choice, but I want you to understand that your mother is having that same feeling you just had where you hesitated. You weren't able to confidently say, "Yes, I want my sister to follow." there was a bit of hesitation there. And so that's the hesitation your mother has for you. And I think if we can both understand where both of you are coming from in that space, maybe you can have a better conversation to hearing each other so that she can learn to respect you as you decide the woman that you are and the woman that you're gonna grow to be, but also while respecting your mother as the woman that she's been her entire life. You get what I'm saying here? The reason I asked that question is because I wanted to make sure that the foundation of love is there. Because what we're seeing with you all in this emotion is this is the first time y'all having a conversation where you're both seeing each other's point of view and not judging each other. I understand what you're feeling, Chrissy, so I would never judge what you're thinking right now. But I also understand that your daughter is a young woman who gets to make the choices that she wants with her body. And it's hard for you to understand the choices she's making. It's hard for you.
'Cause I think it's hard for her to understand how it's gonna affect the future.
As a parent myself, when my son does things, I always think immediately, how's this gonna affect you in 5 years, 10 years, 15 years? But then I take myself back to 20 and I think about the things where my parents said stuff and I realized that I had to make my own path. I had to learn my own lessons. But what allowed me to be here sitting on this stage successful was knowing that as I made my decisions, that my mother and my father was always gonna be there to love me. Point right now.
Yeah, and I will always be there for her. I know. Always.
In this moment, I think being there for your daughter and saying, "All right, just talk to me. I'm not gonna judge you right now. Just tell me." I think that would allow her to have more conversation with you and open up to you. And maybe y'all could come to a path where y'all could be able to hear each other more. All right? Yes.
I wish y'all the best of luck, sincerely.
I really do. Thank you. So I know we're here for something serious. Tell me, when did you start having the problems with Kaylee?
It started last year. I currently was looking for a house. So we was in a shelter during this time. Uh huh. And she just blew off the rip. Um, one of the people that, you know. Cause we stayed there were other people. Yeah. So as we there they was. They must have touched her soda or ice cream or something. I forgot what it was. Uh huh. And out the gate. She went in the room. It's only a room. We share a room. So she went in the room. I don't. They always touching my stuff. I'm like, kayla, well just get dressed. We can go to another store. It's only 8 o'. Clock, "You know, don't blow up. We in the shelter." Yeah. "Fuck, they always touching my stuff." So I go out, I ask the worker, "Hey, is there something else that y'all got in there for my daughter to drink before I go to the store?" "Oh no, well, you know, you can leave to go get something." That's what blew her off. "I shouldn't have to get nothing," and this and that. So now I'm trying to calm her down. She bucking at me, bucking. I'm like, "Hold on." So at this point, I'm like, "What's going on?" And she tried to swing, like actually tried to swing on me. Oh my God. And the people at the shelter, they had to call the police because there's other family members there. And if they feel like I can't control you being your mom, you can't come.
Control him, that makes sense. Is Kayla your only child? Yes, only one. Wow, okay, so it's just you two? Yes. Got it. Is her father involved at all? No. Not at all?
He been left, when I was pregnant, he went to jail when I was 5 months pregnant. When he got out, she was 3. And he got married when she was 4, so. You haven't been there. I'm sorry. I try to give her the benefit of the doubt, and now that she see that I haven't whooped her, it's like she feel like she can whoop my ass. She feel like she the parent. I tell her something, I don't gotta do that shit. It's just that. I tell her to go to school. I'm not going to school. This was just last week. The welfare people called me, I gotta do a welfare check on Kaylee. She haven't been to school in a week.
And from your perspective, you thought she was going to school?
Hey mom, I'm going to school in the morning. Then she'll put her phone on D&D. Okay, at 4:15 she'll turn it back on as if she was in school.
She able to talk. Okay, that makes sense. My gosh, you going through a lot. I'm so sorry. I'm really sorry. Is it hard to discipline Kaylin? Yes. Yeah, it is. Very hard. Has it always been that way?
No, she was a great kid. I don't know where my daughter at.
That's not my daughter. Yeah. It's not. How long ago did it start?
It started, I'd say last year. Last year, so it's been about a year. 'Cause after the shelter, we moved to Mississippi and it got worser.
Got it, got it.
We was in a whole 'nother state, you know, it's down south, it's very different down there. So she got to the point where she really wasn't listening to me. She don't think she can do stuff and I'm not going to Milwaukee, I asked her to get, I say, well, okay, well since you wanna like boys and do all that, get on birth control, I'm not doing that. The doctor said I don't have to. You heard what they said. If your daughter don't want to get it, then she don't have to. Oh, you have to. I mean, I'm not gonna be no young grandmama. Yeah.
Oh, you can go. Is she disrespectful to other people?
Oh yeah, very. Very?
Very. You can go. Yeah. My producer told me that you called the detention centers this week to put her away there.
Tell me about that. She was so disrespectful. I just couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. She was too disrespectful. So I called them. They ain't had no room that day. They was gonna call me back. So the day that I talked to your producers, just so happened they called me. I had just told like, hey, they called me, it's a spot for her. I think that's where she gonna go. If we leave this show today and can't nothing change, that's where you gonna have to go. A free bed, you ain't gotta worry about nothing. I ain't gotta worry about nothing.
But at least she can stay somewhere.
I pick and choose when I wanna come see you. But you ain't gonna pick and choose when you wanna leave my house, when you wanna listen to me, when you wanna play mama role or be a teenager. You not finna pick which one. "Don't tell me what you finna do. You gonna do exactly what I say when I say it." Got it, I understand.
All right, so everyone, let's hear what Kaylee has to say about everything. Please welcome Kaylee to the show. How do you feel about what was just said?
Now I kind of understand, but it's like, it's just a lot from both sides and some of it wasn't told correctly. Okay. So what part wasn't told?
What was not told? Your mom was asking.
Talk louder. What part was a lie?
The shelter part. So in the shelter you did not disrespect her? So you did scream at me at the shelter?
I did, but it wasn't as she told it. It was like most so both sides. She didn't go ask the worker that they have something else to drink. She was sitting there talking about the situation and I was on the phone being silent. Over there mad, and she kept going and kept going. She kept pushing the situation. So I finally said something back, and we just started arguing, and I was like, shut up, shut up, put on my— and I went outside. Got it. And then that's when the police got called, because when I went back inside, sat in the living room, I had swung on her because she kept talking about the situation.
She walked up on Okay, so that's the story your mother described though. What part of it is different?
I just feel like it's different from my perspective.
Okay, and I'm ready to hear it. What part? 'Cause I'm trying to like make sure I hear your side as well.
The talking part. I feel like she say respect goes both ways. It's like— If you act like a bitch, that's what you gonna be called. I be calling her bitches sometimes. I be like, what the fuck? You keep saying, hey, Kaylee, just calm down. No, bitch, what the fuck? What's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? Your bitch ass think you grown. That's how the fuck I talk to her. That's the truth.
So you're saying the only reason that you swung is because she stepped to you first and you felt like you had to protect yourself?
Yeah, and I kept telling her to move. Kept telling her. I reversed it like 2, 3 times. Okay. And she never moved. I'm like, "Kaylee, I'm like Kaylee, come on, let's just go to the store. Let's just go to the store, put your stuff on." up and put your stuff on. Now move, move, move. At this point I'm telling her to come on. She's— now she— now you see what I'm saying? When I'm telling you to do something, you want to do the opposite. But when you was just ready to go drink your soda that was in the refrigerator, you was ready to go to the store. Now that I'm ready to— okay, if this is what you mad about, let's go buy some more. Now you don't want to go to the store because you want to sit here and keep yelling and get into it. And you waited until that white person walked in this— in the living room for when she tried to swing on me. She knew it wasn't nobody in there. I would have tore all ass.
Why do you think your mother is frustrated with you?
I don't know. I don't know if it's 'cause I remind her of herself when she was younger or like— Oh, oh, it's true. I don't know. I don't know. Even though I don't think I act like that. I don't even think I'm disrespectful at all. Oh, I tell her you very disrespectful. I wonder where I get it from. Yeah. That's all she say. That's her favorite word.
Oh, do you say that? Yeah.
That's her favorite word. I wonder why you don't get that from me. Mm-hmm.
Okay. So do you feel like you get your behavior from your mother?
I feel like I get my— She run around with hoes all day, younger than her. That's where she get it from, 'cause them hoes ain't got respect for they mama. I don't act like them at all. And she even know that. She know I'm not a bad child. All day I sit at home in my room. Watching movies, on the phone. Every time I come out, I get yelled at. If I stay in my room, I get yelled at. It's like, what do you want?
Yeah. Is that true?
I'm gonna tell you why I do that. You stand in your room, you stand in your room all day. You don't come out, cook, clean. You don't help me do nothing. You won't even prepare the food. I tell her to wipe the stove, she wipe half of the stove. This the side that I'm using, so this the side that I'mma wipe.
Who do that? Is that true?
Do you do that? No, I did that one time.
Why did you skip school this month?
Cuz my hair wasn't did. And if I was to go to school with the little boys there, they'll like pick— like they'll try to pull off your hood or pull off my scarf. And I'm not going to be the type of person to sit there, just let somebody do that. I already knew it was going to happen because why? Like, I just wasn't going to do that or go through that. Be nobody laughing How did your mom react when she found out? She was mad. And I was telling her, I was like, well, my hair wasn't dead. She missed 10 days up there in Mississippi. I automatically go to jail for 30. You already at 14 days. At any point in time this day, they can come pick me up 'cause you ain't been to school 'cause your hair ain't done. You go to jail after 50 days that a child has not been at school. Well, it's after 50 days. So you wanna count these days up? Is she counting the days up for me to go to jail or what? If I tell you it's 14 when it's only 55, so you got 20 more days to miss.
Have you ever run away from home before?
One or two times, but it wasn't home. It was actually from her, not from home. When we went to Milwaukee one time, I had run away from her. Out the car at the lights. Okay, you telling the truth. Out of the car because I think we was talking about going back home I was like, well, I don't wanna go back home. Oh, she wasn't ready to go home. I don't even got a half a tank of gas and you telling me when the fuck you wanna go? If this only gas I got to get us back there where we live at, who finna stay down here? 'Cause you wanna stay down here. What you wanna do down here? You don't got no job. I don't listen to you. Where are we gonna sleep at down here if our shelter all the way 45 minutes away? It's not up to you. You're not grown. Once again, what I say, you do. We had everywhere to sleep. She got friends, family. Who wanna keep sleeping there? I'm already sleeping in a shelter I don't even wanna be at. Who wanna keep sleeping by other people's houses? I don't even wanna be at the shelter. My name's so bad with evictions, I can't even find a house with $1,500 behind my neck. That's why we moved to Mississippi. Mississippi, I moved, I got right there, I got there, got a house, got her in school. She wanna play crazy, get a little boyfriend. Now this is where she really going crazy at. She know we 12 hours away. It's just me and her down there. We moved. It's just me and her, nobody else. And whoever else we done met down there, You got these people in my business. I got indictment court December 5th. December 5th for Mississippi. I had to pay $3,000 to get outta jail.
How long were you in there for?
For 6 days. So she was there by herself. The police locked me up. They didn't ask if I had somebody to watch her or nothing. So that's how CPS got in it. Yeah. But CPS knew she was old enough to stay at home by herself. So when I finally got out, paid the money, finally got out. So that month, September, we ain't had shit to pay rent. That's why we had to move to Mississippi too. I'm 2 months behind rent and the rent only $167. But I can't get a break if I gotta pay these motherfucking 2 different bills by myself. Still make sure we eat, you gotta go to school, you need shoes and clothes. We got light gas. Man, dog, like hell nah, bro, I don't got no help. Like what the fuck? What do you want me to do? And you still on my ass about a hair, a shoe, a phone. And we struggling, bro. And she not making it no better. Yeah. And then you wanna play crazy. Yeah, I'd rather give you up and sign my rights over if this how the fuck you finna treat me.
How does it make you feel when your mother says that?
Like she wants to call attention to something. At first I was like getting sad and emotional about it, but as she— You ain't my mama no way. You don't treat me like mama. Tell them the truth. Tell 'em, 'cause I'm gonna tell 'em. That wasn't what I said. What else you want me to do? If I know if I'm gonna come out my room, you gonna yell at me. So why would I? Got it. We don't have family time or nothing. We don't talk, we don't watch movies, TVs. We don't even, we'd probably text each other and we'd be in the next room.
What just made you start crying right there? Huh?
What just made you start crying right there? 'Cause like, now that I'm finally on this show, it's like I really get to realize how she acts. And it's like she not even giving me a scenario of why. I don't know.
What do you want your mother to understand?
I want her to understand that like, I will be there to help. I will help. Every time you ask, but it's like you can't just go off yelling.
Do you regret having a daughter?
You, I, if she was a boy, she'd probably be better because he'd be able to be freely, you know, he a boy, he can go outside and you can run away. I ain't got to really watch you and put, you know, you can do stuff that what she trying to do. I can't just let you off the leash. She know exactly where I go. These people eat you up and tear you out. She got my location and everything.
So let me tell y'all something because I'm gonna be very real. This entire time that I've been on the stage, I've been fighting back tears. And it's because as I'm watching you two, I understand both of your perspectives so clearly. I understand what you feel as a young girl. I've seen some wild, wild teenagers. No, you're not it. Do you have a mouth on you? Yes. And you know it. Do you make decisions of like not going to school that can put things in jeopardy? Yes. You know it. But I also understand you as a parent and I understand when you are drowning and the one person you like, don't you realize I'm doing this for you? Is you feel like it's making it harder. Yes, I feel like I gotta lash out. Yes, I'm gonna be upset. Yes, I'm mad that you don't jump up I'm doing everything I can. Can't you see that I'm moving here and there to make sure we're supported? I get you as well. And that's what's been making me so emotional because I understand both of your perspectives. And I also see the love here, even through the way y'all talk to each other. I'm sure you're probably thinking like, "My mama really don't love me though." I'm sure you feel that way sometimes. Like, "Does she really care about me?" Yeah. And I also know for you as a parent, you like, "All these things I'm doing is to show you that I love you." I love you, but you're also exhausted. Mm-hmm. I'm a little tired. Yeah. Your daughter just said she doesn't know if, she sometimes doesn't know if you really love her. Take everything else outta the equation. Do you love your daughter?
Yeah. You know I love you.
I've been loving you. This is what I wanna do. I wanna help you not to drown. So you said you need money for a deposit for a house. I got you. I'm gonna pay you. I'm gonna pay you. I'm gonna give you cash. I'm gonna give you money. I'm not joking. You said you need money to get your credit and stuff together. I'm gonna pay for it. I'm gonna pay for it. I'm gonna pay for it. I'm gonna pay for it. Do you accept it? Yes. Good. It's yours. I promise your daughter and you can have a good relationship. Do you want a good relationship with your mom?
Tell her. I want a good relationship with you. I want to be back how we was.
Yeah, me too. You do. Give your daughter a hug. Give your daughter a hug. Okay, so I need to know because what I just read was pretty serious.
What happened on 4th of July? We started fighting. So she came towards me, we were going back and forth. She was saying something like, "I'll choke you, I'll slap you," because she didn't like how I was talking to her. But she was coming at me aggressive, so I gave her the same energy. Then she, I remember she like grabbed me by my neck and like pushed me on the bed.
Oh my gosh, okay.
And then she grabbed me by my neck, pushed me on the bed, and then as I was like getting back up, I don't remember exactly how it led to it, but we started having like a tugging war. Like she pulled me by my hair and I pulled her by hers. So like at this point we're going like back and forth. I'm telling her, let me go. Yes, that situation, it made me like not wanna do it with her. Got it.
Did she throw things at you that day too?
Yeah, so she threw like one of the game boxes and it hit me in my face. Is this the first time you got physical with your mom? No. No. We just started arguing recently, probably like last year is when we got in like the biggest argument 'cause usually like I'll just shut down.
I won't talk anymore. Got it. Oh, so your personality anomalies, you shut down. So do you feel like she threatens you? Is that what's making you shut down?
She threatens me when she feels like I'm being combative. Did she threaten you that day? Yes.
You told my producers that you said that your mother said she's going to make you leak. Your mother said to you, you gonna make you leak. Now listen, I have friends in the hood, so I know what, when they say that, what that mean. Right. If someone said they gonna make you leak, what did you take it as when she said that?
That she's trying to like, she wanna fight me like I'm not her kid anymore. So when she was talking to me, it was like, what's up? Like, I don't wanna be like that with my mom, but I'm sorry. No, you fine.
Yeah. Yeah. What was it like growing up with your mom?
Crazy.
Yeah, in what ways?
She had like abusive relationships. I had to intervene a lot of times. Okay. Yeah, I would be in the middle of it. I would have to be like a mediator because it was more like the person that she dealt with at the time, it was like he would be more aggressive towards her than he was to me. So it'd be like, okay, well talk to him and see, make sure he doesn't come to the house and try to harm us or something. It was really like, I was put in situations I didn't wanna be in.
Did your mom get into physical altercations with other people when you were younger? Yes. She did. What happened when she was 8 months pregnant with your sibling?
So that day she was going to McDonald's. It wasn't that far. She asked me if I wanted to go with her and that day I just didn't feel like it. So, 'cause she didn't have her car, that's why she walked to McDonald's. She see, I guess she seen her car on the street, she seen her car on the street or she seen the person that had her car her car in the street. She seen him and then like she confronted him and like presumably like was tussling or whatever. The girl, she ran her over.
Ran your mother over. And she was 8 months pregnant. Mm-hmm.
Okay, and so how old were you at this time?
7. So you're 7 years old and your mother gets ran over while pregnant. Did your siblings survive? Did not survive. Okay, okay. So what does she say now when you bring it up? Get over it. Oh, okay. What did your mom say when she found out you were pregnant at 17?
She wanted me to abort it.
She wanted you to abort it, okay. And what did you say back?
At first I was like, okay, like maybe she's right, maybe. But then when it was like time to go forth with it, I was like, okay.
Don't wanna do it, yeah. And your mother is 38 and you're 21, so she had you at 17. So you had a child at 17, your mother had a child at 17. 17. Okay, I understand. So what do you want from me today? What are you hoping for?
I want my mom to understand what she put me through. I understand, like, you know, we can move past it, but I want you to like not admit but own up to what you put me through. Like, acknowledge it at least.
You got it, got it, got it. Okay, that makes a lot of sense to me. Well, listen, it's time to meet your mom. So everyone please welcome Portia to the show.
So, hello. So first of all, I just don't understand how me being ran over caused her so much trauma to where it's like she just can't get over it. One fact, you weren't there. That's a fact. You didn't see me getting run over. Right, I know. I didn't say that, but you didn't see me getting ran over. You didn't experience that. So I'm just saying, so to put yourself in that trauma and stay in it, it's something that I just can't do.
Porsha, I wanna know from you, can you tell me what happened on the 4th of July?
Yeah, pretty simple.
You can take a seat, please. Yeah, please take a seat. Thank you. Thank you for being here, by the way.
Right. Yeah. So the 4th of July, okay, first of all, I'm yelling at my youngest daughter. So if you see I'm yelling at her, I'm the mama. You know, this a bear. I'm roaring right now. I'm yelling and then I come in there and I say something to you and I got an attitude. Me, if I was there, I'm like, girl, bye. You talk at me, you don't talk to me. No, you're too sensitive. No, I'm not. Yes, you are. I don't like that. Like, I'm not gonna be on those. No, you don't know how to understand. You don't take what people say to you and you don't be like, okay, well, I did this, I'm sorry. You don't know how to apologize. You be like, okay, well, get over it. Like, oh well.
Why did it get physical that day? That day though? I'm still not understanding why they get physical.
Because when she stood up, she was talking to Buck, you know what I mean? Don't get up and start bucking at me. You hit me like, what are you— Juicy, I did not tell you that I would hit you. Yes, you did. You kept threatening me. Well, guess what? Well, get out of my face then, girl.
Who threw the first punch that day?
It wasn't no punches because she was doing too much. So yeah, I choked her a little bit.
Yeah, get down, sit down. How do you communicate when you're angry?
I don't know, it'd be both. I could be mixed, talking verbally or I'm, yeah.
So when you get angry, you get loud, you get aggressive, and sometimes you might have to get physical.
Oh yeah, yeah. But with her, it's not because you're my child, so I most definitely don't want to take it there. Of course. You get what I'm saying? So that's not the case. You get what I'm saying? With us fighting, her, you know, me telling her, "Oh, I'm gonna make you leak." Yeah, because I want her to understand, "Look, girl, you don't even fight, not like that. You're not a fighter. I'm a fighter." She knows that. So you pulling my hair right now and I'm just trying to let you pull my hair, but I'm trying to let you know, you keep holding on to it, I'm gonna make you leak. So then you gonna have to let me go. Yeah.
What do you mean by that every time you say, "I'm gonna make her leak"?
Like—
'Cause where I'm from, you say, "I'm gonna make somebody leak," it's 'cause you putting holes in them.
Yeah, so yeah.
Okay, and how do you think it makes her feel when you say things like, "I'm gonna make you leave"?
I'm gonna be real, I don't care because my whole point is that, you know what I mean? Like, don't come at me in that type of manner and I'm not gonna come at you in that type of manner. You know what I mean? Like, let's respect each other. And then furthermore, I'm your mom, so you get what I'm saying? Some things a mom can say to you And you just be like, okay, whatever. My mom yells at me, say a little, you know what I mean? Sometimes I wanna go crazy on her, but then I'll be like, oh, hang up. You get what I'm saying? So I'm telling her, hey, move like that, do stuff like that. She just— Yeah.
You tell my producers you think she's lazy. Yeah. In what way?
Cleaning up. That's another reason why I don't care that she's not at the house. She doesn't like to clean up. She doesn't wash dishes. She made a big old meal. So if you make a big meal, mind you, oil splashing all over the stove, you need to clean that stuff up because oil sticks on the stove. That's not a good thing. It's not a good look, none of that. So, you know, clean. I come in there, I'm like, hey, could you come clean this stuff up? You know what she tell me? She tell me, I'm just gonna wash these dishes. No, honey, you're gonna clean up this entire kitchen because you just messed it up. So that's what you're gonna do.
Were you disappointed when she got pregnant at 17? Most definitely. You were?
Yeah. Why? Because I was pregnant at 17. I had a baby at 17 and—
Is this normal how she does? She gets shut down? Mm-hmm. So she gets quiet. When she gets quiet like this, she shut down. What do you normally do?
Keep talking.
You keep talking? Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Do you ask her what's wrong with her? Yeah. And what did she say?
No, this time she said, "What's wrong with you? Like why you got an attitude? Why you don't like?" Nobody wanna talk to nobody like that. I don't wanna talk to you.
How would you like her to respond to you?
Sometimes she overtalks, like she talks too much sometimes. Do you feel like your mother loves you?
I don't know. I gotta tell y'all that I can see very quickly what the breakdown is, this relationship is. It's interesting because I see both of your sides and I see immediately like why you want the sort of certain things in your house and I also see I see why you shutting down. There's been a continuous pattern in your entire life of like, you experience something that's traumatic, you experience something that's abusive, and then all of a sudden you tell your mother and your mother's like, get over it because you've had to be strong. You've had to be the one has figured it out. You've had to be able to be like, I gotta keep going. You've never had time to sit there and be sensitive and figure it out. You had a child when you were 17, you had abusive partners. You've always had to say, let me get my ass back up and figure this out today. There's no time to be sensitive and quiet. I get it. But yet on the other side, she grew up in a house where she saw those things, where she saw trauma. And so she needed time to process because for her, she didn't have the mentality of thinking like, I gotta get up and doing it. And so even like some of the language y'all use back and forth of like you say she's too sensitive, that's all language of somebody who's trying to process their feelings. They're trying to figure out what am I going through? 'Cause the interesting part is I just think about the fact of like when you lost your child, and I'm very, very sorry. I know it's been years now, but that stays with a mother. I know that, and I'm very sorry that happened.
Thank you.
And the thing is that when she brought it up, I understood what you meant by like, that didn't happen to you. And so when she talks about the sibling that she didn't even know from your point of view, you're like, that didn't happen to you. But what did happen to her, and I wrote this down, is that she experienced something that is even more hurtful for a child. Not in equal ways by any ways. I'm not comparing your hurt because you lost a child, but she lost security at that point. And I don't think you've ever realized that because on that day she realized that she could lose her mom and that her life could be lost. And for a child to realize at a young age and not be able to process that, and then as they get older be told, that's not your trauma, that's not for you to deal with. Of course she's always gonna shut down because she never got clarity insecurity. You feel what I'm saying on that?
Yeah, I do. I do.
What's going on in your head right now?
I don't know how to react like sensitive.
Boom, that's it. That's it. So what y'all gotta do is learn how to react to each other. That's what needs to happen. And so every way you've been reacting to her from here on out is not gonna work. Do you miss your mom?
Honestly? Yes and no. Like, you're still, even the stuff that you was going through, you're still going through that right now. And I'm still in the middle of it. Is my mom gonna be okay? Is she, is like, what's going on? Like, I'm always on edge. I don't like, I've been like that for a long time. I don't like that.
You've been on edge forever. Yes, I don't like that. I get it. Edge, that's another word for what? Security. Right. That's all she's expressing to you. Mom, I need to be secure.
Say, "Mom, I wanna feel more secure." Mom, I wanna feel more secure. Stop crying. You wanna hug me?
Oh. What that is, is just step one. That's what I can do for y'all here today. Use that language, "I need security right now," and let that resonate with y'all to help y'all build y'all relationship back, okay? Okay. I wish y'all the best of luck. Thank you. All right, friends, make sure to come back next time so we can keep talking and we can keep growing. I love you all. Can I come give you a hug? Oh no. Come here. I know. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.
I feel like this happened for a reason.
I'm here for a reason, clearly. Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully you got a little something out of that. Good, good. I'm so sorry, love. Good, good. Good, good. I'm glad. Oh, but we ain't got the mic now. We fine. I saw you crying. I just want to be there for you for a bit. I'm glad you kind of got a little bit of something.
Yeah. You're welcome. My daughter is a narcissist and a pathological liar. She making up lies about me and everybody else. You smoking weed, you drinking, and then she even lie about that. She tells people I starve her, beat her. People think I'm an abusive mother. None of that's true. We have a strained relationship to the point I feel like I just hate her. I can't take this no more.
That's why nobody wants a relationship with you. Toriana, thank you for being here. Everyone, welcome Toriana to the show. So we were watching that together and I saw that you immediately had a reaction. What was going through your mind when you were listening to your own children?
That's one of my traumas that hurts me the most. Yeah. That's one of my traumas that hurts me the most. You wasn't even fucking there. I had a miscarriage and I dealt with that alone. You wasn't even there. You calling me a liar. I'm 21, I can drink, I can smoke weed. It's how I keep myself sane. How I hold myself. So I don't lash out, so I don't blank. And you sit here and you call the show to try to build a relationship. It's been 21 years. 21 years. You haven't had me since I was 7. Since I was 7 and you left me home. You left me home every day with 4 other kids so you can be young and do what you want to do. You starved us when you was mad at us. You beat us. Oh, you didn't burn me with the iron? Let's talk about that. Let's talk about that. You don't remember putting the iron on my arm because I couldn't grinced with my little sister's hair and my granddad came and wrapped my arm up that day? You don't remember that? You don't remember choking me, throwing me down the flight of stairs and I blacked out and had no memory of doing that? You don't remember hitting my brother in the nose with a bat? You don't remember hitting my sister and throwing her against a glass table, busting her head open and we sitting in a hospital room and she getting staples in her head?
So that's what got you when she, on top of everything, when she called you a liar in this? Yeah.
It seems as if— I gotta lie on you for a while? Why is DSS involved? Why is they involved? People just lying on you. People just making up shit on you. I got taken away the first time when I was 4. They give you the benefit of the doubt to give me back to you and then take me away again, take all of us when I was 7. Then we all split up. We have to find each other. You didn't come searching for me. You only cared about them.
Was she drinking and doing drugs during this time?
My mom, yeah, when she had my brother and me. She didn't even know at that time, she was drunk that time. She didn't even remember how my brother started bleeding. She said it outta her mouth. She literally said, "Who's bleeding?" Now we all said my brother. Like, you didn't remember hitting him in the nose? She don't wanna take accountability. She lives in this world where all her children lied on her. You just delusional. You don't wanna believe nothing. You don't wanna confess to it. That's my big thing. It ain't about the relationship, it's about standing in your truth Because at the end of the day, rather you're here or rather you're gone, you gotta sit in front of God and he's gonna ask you about those times and you gotta stand in that truth.
Do you want a relationship with your mom?
Yeah, because I'm willing to break that generational curse.
Got it, okay. So what do you need from your mom today to move forward? Stop telling my business.
Stop telling your business. Lying. Stop trying to make it seem like somebody just trying to portray you as a horrible mother because I'm not.
You need her to admit. Yes.
Got it. At the end of the day, I don't care about nobody out here, Toriana. Do you understand me? Do you understand? No. First of all, first of all, you had your fame, right? That's what you wanted. So let me say what I gotta say. Let me— okay, but the way I knew you was gonna lie, Toriana, but I ain't know you was gonna lie like this. Prove. I ain't know you was going to lie like this, Toriana. I ain't know you was going to lie like this. And I left a lot of stuff out on the strip because I care about you. But first of all, you telling people I burnt you with an iron. Would I do that? You did. First of all, girl, I was greasing my sister's head. You said, can you get that grease out the bin for me? And I said, where's the grease? You told me the bin. I looked in the bin, couldn't find the bin. You said, come here, took the iron that was on the ironing board and put it right on my arm. Let me tell— did you? Did you put that on Everything. You didn't do that. Let me tell you something. First of all, you better get her before I get her, because I don't care about none of these cameras. The way she lying, the way Tori is lying, crazy. It's crazy. First of all, y'all let her talk, so it's my turn now.
I would love to hear your point of view. I would love to hear your point of view.
But the way— I ain't mean to— I'm not trying Trying to get rowdy and make a scene, but at the end of the day, I called the show. I understand. I called the show. I hit her up because I care about my daughter. Why would I get on camera and make a fool of myself? Now I'm gonna say what I got to say. I wanna hear it. But what I'm telling you, I don't care nothing about these cameras on here.
Take a seat for me. Let me hear what you gotta say though. It's crazy. If you wanna tell me, tell me what you have to say.
I hit the show up, okay? Because I was really sitting there thinking, at first I had got to a point like, You know what, fuck, she older, I don't care if she disrespectful, whatever, I don't apologize.
When was the last time you saw her?
Saw who? Her. Almost 5 years ago because it was COVID and we video chat a couple times.
So the last time y'all seen each other in person is 5 years ago?
Yep, almost 5 years ago.
This is the first time today? Yep, yep. Okay, and you are 21? Mm-hmm. So you were a teenager last time you saw each other? I was in high school. High school. Okay, I spent over a decade working in social services. So you said that none of your kids are with you, that they were removed from the house. So what was the conditions and why they removed them from the house?
Okay, May 2009, I went outta town to go see my grandmother. I had never left my kids, never been nowhere. I had people in my house that had been around my kids since they was little. Fast forward, went out of town. Like a day later, I get a call from the ACS worker telling me, oh, your son, and my son was like 6 at the time, I think. My son had walked to school by himself and a stranger picked him up. Down south, you have to be supervised to get on the bus down there. But because of that, I had got a CPS case right around this time when they was doing the investigation. My mother asked could she take the kids. And even though I was in foster care and I had history with my mother, I trusted her enough. One of the stipulations was she wasn't supposed to have them around my cousin. They called me and said, listen, we specifically told your mother not to have them around your cousin. Do you want your kids in a foster home or do you want them with they father? They had already told her The cook like already gathered them up. My mother already told them that I left my kids for some man on the internet knowing that I went to go see her mother. I came back down south, we went to court. They was just saying, they told me prior to this like, you're not gonna get your kids back today. So I'm like, well, how I'm gonna get my kids? They said, you have to hire a lawyer and go into court. All they lawyers.
So the problem that I'm having with the story, from working in this field is that normally if you've gotten to the place of a court case, that means there has had to been some signs of neglect and abuse for them to take it that far. And I understand the neglect part when your son was caught on the street. And I understand that maybe there could have also been signs of abuse from with this person being around. But at that point they would've given the kids back to you unless there was more.
I'm telling you the truth. That I could show y'all all the GoFundMe emails, everything, me trying to contact lawyers to get my kids. I got it. This is the truth. I'm not lying.
So what happened during that time? Karamo. Did they discover more neglect?
Karamo, let me tell you something. I'm not gonna sit here and act like I ain't had no ACS, CPS cases or nothing. Toriana got taken away from me when she was 2 years old.
And what happened during that time?
Toriana, she went to go live grew up with her father, some things happened, she ended up in a group home. And so, when she got a certain age, she was able to make her own choice where she wanted to live. Around this time, my children's father had got killed. And I ended up going back down south, but to try to get my other kids back. But at the time, Toriana was living with somebody, and she felt like, you know, she didn't have time. No, the problem was you didn't want us to have a mother and daughter relationship. You was afraid that me and her was building that mother and daughter relationship that you stepped in between that and broke it up. Because that's the truth. No, you haven't. I've been around, let's go. No, you haven't. No, you haven't. Since you wanna say I'm a liar, we gonna talk about everything, Jamerrill. Let me ask you this. My child don't have nothing to do with this at all. If you called the show asking—
What the fuck? You called the show asking to repair. You're sick.
No, you're sick. You're using your child. You're sick. Do it. Do it. How you— y'all go to jail today. No, show them how you got somebody else wrong. Show them how you got somebody else wrong. That's why don't nobody want to fuck with you. Nobody want to fuck with you. Show them how you don't got none of your kids and none of your kids want to be with you. I'm not worried about none of that.
I'm not worried about none of that. I'm not worried about none of that.
You're never going to change. That's your You're never gonna change. You're never gonna change.
You're never gonna change. I'm gonna take 5 minutes. If you can just step back. Yes, she gotta step back.
I'm telling you. What, that's a threat? Go ahead. That's a threat? You doing this for the camera. No, you're doing it for the camera. You're the one getting all up and rowdy with me. I'm telling y'all. I'm not worried about you. Y'all better get going. I'm not worried about the shit you're doing. Show them how you get.
Show them how you get.
Show them how you get. Wicked ass, you a wicked old miserable bitch. That's why God will never do good for you, bitch. That's why God will never bless you. That's why God will never bless your ass. Go ahead, you lying old bitch. I don't give a fuck. Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. I don't care. I don't give a fuck about TV. That's real life. Yes, you do. That's my trauma. That's my trauma. That's the shit I've been through. I speak up for me and my 5 other siblings. I'm done.
I'm done. You don't need to be back.
I'm done. I'm not doing this. I'm ready to leave. Y'all really tried to play the fuck out of me. Y'all knew exactly what the fuck y'all was doing.
Let me tell you something. If I would have known, because I try to see the best in people. And one of the things that I do on this stage is like, either we're gonna come here to heal or either you're not coming here at all. We're not gonna do this. And I am so sorry, so, so sorry that she got brought on this stage to do this to you. What you went through is real. She had no right to call you a liar.
I wanna have some type of resolution to it. That's the thing. I don't just walk around with just hate. I actually wanted it to be some type of balance.
I could tell, I know. That's why you showed up. I know, that's why you showed up. But she's not in a space to do that. Her motives for coming here was to make herself feel better. Look like the victim. Yeah, that's what was her motives. And I caught that immediately. You are an amazing young woman and I'm so sorry for everything that happened to you. I'm sorry that I couldn't help you to bridge some relationship with your mother, but she's not ready. And if she's not ready, you don't deserve to be in the crossfires or whatever she's going through. What you're going through. You hear me? Give me a hug. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry, you sweet thing.
I'm so sorry. I love my daughter. I don't care what nobody say. Like, I ain't coming on here to try to humiliate her or try to make her look bad. You're not gonna keep running with this narrative like, oh, I abuse my kids, I just left my kids. Toriana, no. Y'all really, y'all really, y'all got me though.
I'm confused and I'm being sincere. Sincere. Right. I'm confused. How do you think we got you? Because I've been trying to stay calm with you out there. You invited us to this party. You invited us to come and set the table. Right. And then you the one who flipped the table.
I flipped the table? Yes, ma'am. Karamo.
The fact that y'all started going off. Right. And the fact that you said you came here for a relationship, I gotta tell you, and it's just honest. Okay. You gotta be able to one day look at your own, we all gotta take responsibility responsibility for your actions.
Of course.
Of course. In this moment, the responsibility of how this went was on you.
Wow. But I really did not do that.
I didn't tell you I wanted you to admit.
No, you said she wanted me to admit.
Yeah, and I didn't say that you had to. What I'm saying is that you have to at least be able to hear her. She's a child. I heard her. You didn't hear nothing. All you did was came out and started screaming at her.
I heard her. You came out here and started defending. Backstage, I heard her.
You heard her, but you didn't really hear her. You started defending immediately. You started defending. You started defending. What I wish for you is because you had a daughter who was here and really wanted to try to figure out something. You wanted something and you took the relationship even back. I'm gonna tell you that right now. Your actions took it back. No matter what happened in the past, here on this stage today, you broke it. You took it back. So no matter what happens in the past where you say that was her truth or not truth, The truth of the matter is today on this stage, you broke it. You broke your daughter's relationship. You broke the relationship you could have built. You did it and I watched it. Okay. And I just hope that after you leave here, you reflect on how you reacted because that reaction is what caused a chain of reactions that didn't need to happen. I really do wish you the best of luck, but this, she shouldn't have come here today. If you weren't really ready to listen to her and talk to her, you shouldn't have invited your daughter here today. Because what you just did is you triggered a little girl.
Wow, so it's my fault, okay.
Yes, today is your fault. I wish you the best of luck. Good luck. That was a waste of all of our time because that little girl came here and she wanted to do this with her mom. She wanted, and her mother is still so belligerent, and that's the word, that she could not even see that her daughter was trying. She wanted to fight and it's like, why you gonna waste my time? Why you gonna retrigger your daughter? Why you gonna waste all of us' time? You just wasted America's time for no reason. Until she stops fighting with and starts trying to fight for each other, they're never gonna have a relationship. And that's just the truth of it. So listen everybody at home, thank you for being with us. Make sure to come back next time, friends, so we can keep talking and growing. I love you all.
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