Toxic Families | KARAMO

At the end of the day, I don't care about nobody out here, Toriana. Do you understand me? Do you understand? First of all, you had your fame, right? That's what you wanted. So let me say what I gotta say. Let me— okay, but the way I knew you was gonna lie, Toriana, but I ain't know you was gonna lie like this. I ain't know you was gonna lie like this, Toriana. I ain't know you was gonna lie like this. And I left a lot of stuff out on the strip because I care about you. But first of all, you telling people I burnt you with an iron. When I do that? You did. First of all, girl, he was greasing my sister head. You said, can you get that grease out the bin for me? And I said, where's the grease? You told me the bin. I looked in the bin, couldn't find the bin. You said, come here. Took the iron that was on the ironing board and put it right on my arm. Let me tell— Then you did— You put that on everything. Put that on my granddad. You didn't do that. Let me tell you something. First of all, first of all, Karamo, Karamo, you better get her before I get her. Because I don't care about none of these cameras. The way she lying, the way Torian is lying is crazy. It's crazy. First of all, y'all let her talk, so it's my turn now.

It's my turn now. I would love to hear your point of view.

But the way, I ain't mean to, I'm not trying to get rowdy and make a scene, but at the end of the day, I called the show.

I understand.

I called the show. I hit her up because I care about my daughter. Why would you say you don't care about her? Now I'm gonna say what I got to say.

I wanna hear it though.

Because I'm telling you, I don't care nothing about these cameras on here.

Take a seat for me. Let me hear what you gotta say though.

It's crazy.

If you wanna tell me, tell me what you have to say.

I had to show up, okay? Because I was really sitting there thinking, at first I had got to a point like, you know what, fuck it, she older, I don't care if she disrespectful, whatever, I don't apologize.

When was the last time you saw her?

Saw who?

Her.

This is? Almost 5 years ago because it was COVID and we video chat a couple times.

So the last time y'all have seen each other in person is 5 years ago?

Yep, almost 5 years ago.

This is the first time today?

Yep, yep.

Okay, and you are 21?

Mm-hmm.

So you were a teenager last time you saw each other?

I was in high school.

High school, okay. I spent over a decade working in social services. Right. So you said that none of your kids are with you, that they were removed from the house.

Right.

So what was the conditions and why they removed them from the house?

Okay, May 2009, I went out of town to go see my grandmother. I had never left my kids, never been nowhere. I had people in my house that had been around my kids since they was little. Fast forward, went out of town, like a day later, I get a call from the ACS worker telling me, oh, your son, and my son was like 6, 6 at the time, I think. My son had walked to school by himself and a stranger picked him up. Down south, you have to be supervised to get on the bus down there. But because of that, I had got a CPS case. Right around this time when they was doing the investigation, my mother asked, could she take the kids? And even though I was in foster care and I had history with my mother, I trusted her enough. One of the stipulations was, she wasn't supposed to have 'em around my cousin. They called me and said, "Listen, we specifically told your mother not to have them around your cousin. Do you want your kids in a foster home or do you want 'em with they father?" They had already took, like already gathered them up. My mother already told them that I left my kids for some man on the internet knowing that I went to go see her mother. I came back down south, We went to court, they was just saying, they told me prior to this like, you're not gonna get your kids back today. So I'm like, well, how I'm gonna get my kids? They said, you have to hire a lawyer and go into court. All they lawyers.

So the problem that I'm having with the story just from working in this field is that normally if you've gotten to the place of a court case, that means there has had to been some signs of neglect and abuse for them to take it that far. And I understand the neglect part when your son was caught on the street.

Right, right, right.

And I understand that maybe there could have also been signs of abuse from with this person being around. But at that point, they would've given the kids back to you unless there was more.

I'm telling you the truth. I wish that I could show y'all all the GoFundsMe emails, everything, me trying to contact lawyers to get my kids.

I got it.

This is the truth. I'm not lying.

So what happened during that time? Did they discover more neglect?

Karamo, let me tell you something. I'm not gonna sit here and act like I ain't had no ACS, CPS cases or nothing. Toriana got taken away from me when she was 2 years old.

And what happened during that time?

Toriana, she went to go live with her father. Some things happened. She ended up in a group home. And so when she got a certain age, she was able to make her own choice where she wanted to live. Around this time, my children's father had got killed. I ended up going back down south to try to get my other kids back, but at the time, Toriana was living with somebody, and she felt like, you know, she didn't have to— No, the problem was you didn't want us to have a mother and daughter relationship. You was afraid that me and her was building that mother and daughter relationship, that you stepped in between that and broke it up. First of all— Because that's the truth. No, you haven't. No, you haven't. No, you haven't. No, you haven't. No, you haven't. No, you haven't. Have nothing to do with these. If you call.

If you call the show asking what the called the show asking to appear.

You're sick. No, you're sick. Don't play with jail today. Show them how. Show them how you got somebody else. Show them how you got somebody else. Rough. That's why don't nobody want to with you. Show them how you with you. Show them how you got. I'm not worried about none of that. I ain't worried about none of that. I'm not worried about none of that. You're never gonna change. That's your problem. You're never gonna change. You're never gonna change.

I'm gonna take 5 minutes. If you can just step back, sir.

Yes, she gotta step back. I'm telling you. What, that's a threat? That's a threat? You doing this for the camera. No, no, you're doing it for the camera. You're the one getting mad and sweaty with me. I'm telling y'all. Y'all better get up. I'm not worried about sweating. Y'all better get up. The door. Show them how you get. Show them how you get. Show them how you get. Your wicked ass. You a wicked old miserable bitch. That's why God will never do good for you, bitch. That's why God will never bless you. That's why God will never bless your ass, you stupid bitch. I don't give a fuck. I don't care. I don't care. I don't give a fuck about TV. That's real life. Yes, you do. That's my drama. That's my drama. Okay. I'm done. I'm not doing this. I'm ready to leave. Y'all really tried to play the fuck out of me. Y'all knew exactly what the fuck y'all was doing.

Let me tell you something. I would have known because I try to see the best in people. And one of the things that I do on this stage is like either we're gonna come here to heal or either you're not coming here at all. We're not gonna do this. And I am so sorry, so, so sorry that she got brought on this stage to do this to you. What you went through was real. She had no right to call you a liar.

I hope there's some type of resolution to it. That's the thing. I don't just walk around with just hate. I actually wanted her to be some type of mom. I know, I know.

That's why you showed up. I know, that's why you showed up. But she's not in a space to do that. Her motives for coming here was to make herself feel better.

Look like the victim.

Yeah, that's what was her motives. And I caught that immediately. You are an amazing young woman and I'm so sorry for everything that happened to you. I'm sorry that I couldn't help you to bridge some relationship with your mother, but she's not ready. And if she's not ready, you don't deserve to be in the crossfires of whatever she's going through. You hear me? Give me a hug. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry, you sweet thing. I'm so sorry.

I love my daughter. I don't care what nobody say. Like, I ain't coming on here to try to humiliate her or try to make her look bad. You're not gonna keep running with this narrative like, oh, I abuse my kids, I just left my kids. Toriana, no. Y'all really, y'all really, y'all got me though.

I'm confused and I'm being sincere.

Right.

I'm confused. How do you think we got you? Because I've been trying to stay calm with you out there. You invited us to this party. You invited us and set the table. Right. And then you the one who flipped the table.

I flipped the table?

Yes, ma'am.

Karamo.

The fact that y'all started going off.

Right.

And the fact that you said you came here for a relationship, I gotta tell you, and it's just honest. You gotta be able to one day look at your own, we all gotta take responsibility for our actions.

Of course.

Of course. In this moment, the responsibility of how this went was on you.

Wow. But I really did not do that.

I didn't tell you I wanted you to admit.

No, you said she wanted me to admit.

Yeah, and I didn't say that you had to. What I'm saying is that you have to at least be able to hear her. She's a child.

I heard her.

You didn't hear nothing. All you did was came out and started screaming at her.

I heard her.

You came out here and started defending.

Backstage, I heard her.

You heard her, but you didn't really hear her. You started defending immediately. You started defending. You started defending. What I wish for you is because you had a daughter who was here and really wanted to try to figure out something. You wanted something and you took the relationship even back. I'm gonna tell you that right now. Your actions took it back. No matter what happened in the past, here on this stage today, you broke it. You took it back. So no matter what happened in the past where you say that was her truth or not truth, the truth of the matter is today on this stage, You broke it. You broke your daughter's relationship. You broke the relationship you could have built. You did it. And I watched it. OK. And I just hope that after you leave here, you reflect on how you reacted because that reaction is what caused the chain of reactions that didn't need to happen. I really do wish you the best of luck. But this— she shouldn't have come here today. If you weren't really ready to listen to her and talk to her, you shouldn't have invited your daughter here today. Because what you just did is you triggered a little girl.

Wow. So it's my fault. OK.

Yes, today is your call. I wish you the best of luck.

Now you know you a liar. You a liar, you a manipulator, ain't nothing funny. And you know I don't like that girl. Karamo, she ran off and left me struggling for rent. Left me struggling. And she care more about a dog than me. She had a dog in my house for 2 years that I had to take care of. You know, she came out here, She came out to California, I was homeless. This is a narcissist. I was homeless, I was homeless, John, I'm talking, you had to see. All right. She always wanna run off, run off, John. I'm not, you can't communicate like that. Run off. How the fuck do you communicate like that? I can't communicate with somebody that disrespects me, try to act like I'm the blame of they problem. You're narcissistic. You feel me, Karamo? You are narcissistic. She need a GED. Look at my chest, son. I got 3 words for her. Look at her Cash App. I'm tired of you around my kids. Look at her Cash App. Why you coming out here talking about Cash App? For her to come out here talking, telling y'all I'm a crash out or whatever. She hurt me. She left me. What are you doing here? Every time we have a plan, every time we have a plan, she treat other people. I can't be my father. I can't be your man. I'm your daughter. She always leave me. Do you want your seat back? That's the thing. This is what made our relationship bad. The second I went to my father's funeral, she put her hands on me twice. Stop for going on my day, girl. In my day, if you put your hands on your mama, she lucky she standing here. How many times you going to tell me, tell me I hate you, I wish you die, you feel me, all this because you don't like who my father is? How many times you going to tell me I wish— I don't care if I did fail, you call me Captain Saver, Captain Saver. I can't do this, this is stupid. This is communication. This is communication. You want me to call you stupid, but I'm not. She want me to, she tried to trigger me. She pushed me twice. She wanted to leave, run off with that girl. That's all. And she needed my car because, the backstory of this, Karamo, she thought that she couldn't bring the girl in my house 'cause the girl is associated with some stuff going on with another family member.

'Cause I wanna hear.

I've been there for her since I was 9.

My mama, I wanna hear both of you.

Do you hear me, Karamo? She ain't got no excuses. She 30 years old without a GED. Okay, all right.

Thank you.

She cared more of a dog better than she care about me. One second.

Let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. Let me ask you. Hold on one second. I heard your piece. I heard your piece.

I'm sick of this.

I heard your piece and I've heard both of you and I've seen the communication, breakdown, but I'm gonna ask you a simple question. What is it that you're hoping to get from your daughter today?

I came to restore the relationship with John. She don't know that this bond, she broke the bond the last time. Sit there with her. Karamo.

How did she break the bond?

In her misery. The day that we had the situation. See how she cut me off and don't listen. I'm not doing nothing if I'm not sitting in her misery. The day that we had the situation, Taisha was emotional over the dog that had been living in my house in Detroit for 2 years. Let me ask you a question. That's what she's saying.

So you're saying that you don't like her?

Man, this shit is stupid. I don't like the fact that she chose that person to be with because of the situation. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. That's the only person that hopped in the car with me. That's the only person that cared about me to help. The girl's shit. Can I talk, Karamo?

I can hear both of y'all.

Blah, blah, blah. What are you talking about? The girl's shit falsely had my shit put in incarceration. Okay, they don't got nothing to do with her. Okay, because she had to do with it too. Girl, shut up! Why are you here? Why are you here? Why is you here? Why are you here?

You ain't nobody. You don't think about me.

You're not from my daughter. You don't return home. You for Barstow.

You for Barstow. You for Barstow.

I got this person that said they've been with you. This person, that person, that person. Girl, bye. Girl, bye. You're on Jah's list. That is why you're mad. If Jah had a Christmas list, you'll be number 12.

So what I can tell already is this goes deeper than a car. This is not just about a car.

Yes, I'm supposed to sit around. She got mad 'cause my son got rid of her dog. Okay, it was other dogs in the house. I like my son.

That's not relevant for me right now.

Hold on. That's not relevant for me right now. My brother had a batch of dogs I was taking care of while I was in California. This was my responsibilities there to take care of these dogs. Jah, back up. What you standing up for? I think you need to sit down. See, this is why I'm pushing you. I think you need to have a seat. You're standing up. Over me. This why I push you. I think you need to have a seat. You can talk loud. I think— I don't want you standing over me. I can't say— I think you need to stop cussing on me, Karamo.

Just take a seat.

I'm not about to sit here and listen to a bunch of— I did good by letting this girl push me, and she's still standing here and took my damn car. You a thief. You took from your mom. Video on social media with her congratulating me the car. After that, after that, I did congratulate Taisha with the car, but she didn't pay on the note. What are we here for? She didn't pay on the note. Because I wanted to go leave the mission. So whose car is that? What are we here for? Was I bringing you to mission? What are we here for? Was I bringing you to the mission? Yes! You don't realize every day you're the only person to listen to me. I hate you. And your lifestyle is messed up. How is my lifestyle messed up? The window busted out.

Jah, what I'd like you to do is run that car. Is that like you take a step back?

You're miserable. Okay. This not gonna work. You came to paint a picture of me. You know what I'm saying? You know I'm not.

Take a backstage.

You know what I'm saying? She don't hold no bags. She don't open no doors. I'm unbothered. She don't do nothing. I'm unbothered. That's why she mad. I'm unbothered. That's why she mad. I'm even unbothered about the car now. 'Cause I don't like your energy.

Okay.

I'm just unbothered by her. I have to be 'cause they keep on doing stuff over and over again. Do you gonna let your child push you? I think I showed much restraint. Mm-hmm.

So can I tell you what I noticed is outside of the lack of communication and a lack of—

I'm scared to communicate for her because I don't trust her no more. I gave her my loyalty. She broke the bond. She broke it. She was my best friend. I share everything with her. But she keep breaking my heart.

I need you to hear me. I need you to hear something. 'Cause what I realized immediately outside the lack of communication is that the child-parent dynamic here is way off. And the child-parent dynamic here is way off because of you. I'm telling you. She's a child. She's a child. I'm sure you've been hurt. And one of the things your daughter said before you got out here that I thought was very interesting and I thought was also sweet is that she said, "No one watered into you." And I feel like what she's witnessed and what she's desired is to be somebody who can be watering into you. But the problem is that a mother-daughter, that's not her job. And it's not her job to continuously feel as if I am supposed to be there for my mom to do these things. Anything you've done for your daughter shows that you're a good mom. Where the line gets tricky is when you feel like because I did these things, now I'm owed this.

No, I don't, Tom. I just felt like this particular time, I said, Taisha, you know I just came from being homeless. I said, I just need your support for one month until I get this job. I got that job. That's why I said I can't be up here acting crazy. I'm a behavior therapist now. I am now, okay? Yes, I am. I am. I've been at the training for 6 to 8 weeks, and that's why I told Taisha to stop pushing me, y'all, 'cause I was in training for my job, and Taisha already had made me lose a job.

If you are a behavioral therapist, it's not my job to question or not. I'm not looking for your license. What I am noticing is that if you have that training, similar to me, you would know that saying my daughter's the reason I lost my job is not accountability. Saying that my daughter's the reason this or that happened shows that there's a parent-child dynamic that's not healthy. Because if you were actually doing that, you would say, you know what? I actually allowed myself to get riled. This is how the language would go is I allowed myself to get riled up and now because of that I'd made a choice and now my job is not there. And then what you would do is you would say, well, you know what? I gotta make clearer boundaries with my daughter. And from the fact that you said she was the person that I talked to, the fact that you said she was my best friend, You're not even gonna lose your best friend, you're gonna lose your daughter. My question is, do you wanna lose your daughter?

No, I don't.

You don't?

No.

Okay. When she comes back out here, the parent has to model everything the child does. She does everything you've done. So if you want a better relationship, it's boundaries and better modeling. I know you said you're in this field now, so this is a perfect opportunity. I'm gonna bring Jah back out, okay? All right. What do you wanna say to your daughter? Can you take a seat for me?

Look at me, I'm over here. I'm not the audience. I can hear you. Like you already said so much today that pissing you off. That's not the truth. I can hear you. I don't wanna look at you right now. What did I say to piss you off? I don't wanna look at you. What did I say to piss you off? Jah, look, I'm over here. I don't wanna look at you, just talk. Okay, well, Jah, I'm gonna just say I brought you on this show so we could restore our relationship. That's not what that video looked like. That looked like you brought me on here to embarrass me. And I love you. I didn't come here to embarrass you. Embarrass you about what? There's nothing to be embarrassed about. People go through stuff like this all the time. They just don't come on the show. Because before anybody, you know me. Okay. You know the type of person I am. I'm peace, bro. Then you gonna come out here, bring me out here like this. You swear you peachy apple, but sometimes you can be mean. I'm Jah, I'm Jah, I'm Jah. Sometimes you can be mean. I'm hell when I'm giving hell. Still, still, what you wanna do with this, Karamo?

It's both of you respecting each other's boundaries. And so what I want you to say here, and I'll show you, is say, Jah, if you can't hear me right now, I got it. Yeah. But the thing is, is that for us, for us going forward, and this is where you set the boundary, going forward, we can't have this relationship. Going forward, if you're disrespectful, I will walk away without disrespecting you, and you must walk away without disrespecting me.

Yeah, Jah, I was like trying to say, I can have this relationship, but I don't want to. If we gonna be disrespected, ain't nothing more important than our relationship. But if we gonna be disrespectful to each other. That's what I feel like with this car situation. I had to cut my mother off. You know what I'm saying? Talk that tea. I had to cut my mother off. That's the root of all of this. Her mom is the root of this right now. I think this is, my mom has affected y'all. You know what I'm saying? I'm not looking for no blame.

It's a cycle. It's a cycle.

But it's like, if we can't talk and we can't get along, we can't kick it, I'm not just Cash App. Same for here. I mean, Cash App goes both ways, Mom. Yeah, also, listen. Cash App been going both ways since I was a kid. I'm telling you right now, look, either we gonna get it together or I'm not gonna talk to you no more.

What I realize here is this is bigger than this moment. You two do have the ability to break the cycle. Hearing this now that this was your mother, this is to you and this is passed on, there is an ability. But the only way the cycle's gonna be broken is with boundaries and respect. So you said your mom didn't contact you while you were in jail? Did anyone contact you?

No.

No.

I sent letters home and I said something to my mom, my siblings, and I didn't hear anything back.

Okay. And what made you emotional backstage?

Because she sits on stage and you see her and you act like you don't know what's going on. I don't, baby. Mama, just listen. All I ask y'all every time, if it's something I done, if it's something I didn't do, tell me. Selena, this is what you do. You already know I don't, baby. I'm human. Whatever I didn't do, baby, I don't— I cannot change the past. All I can do— Hold on. All I can do is start from here. There's no past. We're starting now. My baby's birthday is January 31st. Last year you did not show up. You were not there for her birth. Hold on. Let's tell Karamo what you did when you had her. Did you contact me? Before I went to work? I said, "Call me in case you go—" Hold on, pumpkin. I said, "Let me know if you go in labor." I can't talk. She doesn't let you talk. No, did I ask you, "Contact me before if you go in labor, so I won't go to work"? Mama, I was on the phone with you. You did not come. You said you had to work. You said you had to be at work. The only ones that was allowed in the labor and delivery— Oh, let's find out. Was her mother-in-law and her boyfriend. If you would've came, you would've got in that door.

You said that your mom didn't contact you while she was in jail. Did you contact her while she was in jail?

Can you contact anybody in jail? Can you write? Can you contact anybody in jail? Can you read and write? Can you call somebody in jail? Can you write them?

You can, they have something called JPay where you can.

Stop it, Karamo, you cannot call a jail and talk to nobody. You cannot call a jail and talk to nobody, baby.

They do, they have. They have resources where you can call and write.

I can call the council and the, what's it, like I did, because they had her somewhere where I didn't want her at. And I'm gonna say this, okay? I was lied to until my last court date of being in that courthouse about why you was in jail. This is not my mom. But y'all lied to me the whole time. I didn't lie to you. So I was upset, y'all. My mom doesn't talk to me, so she doesn't know what's going on in my life. I graduated high school, I went to medical assistant school, and I've never heard, "I'm proud of you." I'm a first-time mom at 27. I tell you all the time. No. 'Cause see, right now it look like you put it on there. This is some real stuff. This is how I feel with you. I tell you all the time I love you all the time. Mama, that does not matter. It doesn't matter. You have to show a person that you love them. That's true. I got that. I got that.

Selena, from your opinion, do you feel like your mother was there for you as a child?

No, she was gone. We had a lot of people in our house, so we had people there. She was at bingo.

Your mom was at bingo?

She was at bingo.

How often was your mom at bingo?

Bingo, it's not on Mondays, so it's Tuesdays, Thursdays, Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays, 7:45 to 10, then 12 to 3:45. Only on Thursdays and Fridays? Exactly, and Sundays. So that's majority of the week. I'ma fly that shit as many kids I got. I don't give a damn what nobody think. Okay. Okay, yes I did. Okay, there's two parents in the household. Okay, I need help. So my help was going to bingo.

Okay. What responsibilities did you take on as a child?

None. So she better not say it. None. I helped cook. You taught me a lot about cooking. I know how to cut veggies. Oh, I taught you how to cook? Yes, you taught me a lot. You did, I heard you cooked. But I washed the clothes, I got everybody up for school. You're supposed to. You're supposed to. That's what big siblings do. I don't care nothing about what you got to say, who at. But if I can get some help, if I say, "Selena, get your sister up," I do, do, do, come on now. Y'all come on with that. Stop with this. Mama, I just want to say— Top fashion show. Let me just say— What's the other shit? Gramma Insta. We are here in flash, in real reality. I love you. I cannot love you no more than I love you. Then you should listen. I listen, but I'mma give y'all that. I'mma give y'all that. I'mma give y'all that. Don't clap no more, please. Listen, I love you, baby. You have always been that special child that needed the most attention out of all 13 of us. I didn't get none, and I didn't get none. Selena, stop it. Only thing that you didn't get was the financial that you like. And that you was getting from your daddy. Mama, it has nothing to do with money. No, it doesn't. I've never asked you for nothing. I don't ask you for nothing financially. I ask for you to be there for me. Tell me where am I, well, how am I not there, baby? You didn't come when I was in jail. I wanted you to visit me. I'm not coming to no jail because I asked you. The foolishness that happened didn't have to happen. It wasn't foolishness. Now clap on that. Now you wanna be a movie star? You know I ain't going to jail for nobody. Did I ever go to jail for 'em? I'm being honest. What do I look like? That's bull. Mama, you are arguing with yourself. Kalena, you did some things that you shouldn't have done.

Everyone, I wanna bring out your other daughter. Everyone welcome Kajma to the show.

You came out here to act a fool too? 'Cause I'm gonna react a fool with y'all. Y'all wanna be a movie star? Y'all gonna be a star today. Come on with me. Love these kids so much, Karamo. Baby, I jump off top your roof for them. I'm telling you.

What do you think of what you've heard so far?

I feel like that their relationship, I just, she didn't get the chance to build a relationship 'cause she had so many kids. I feel like that about their relationship. And then, She had a daddy that spoiled her and he told her things about my mom that, you know, some things are true, but some things you don't tell a child about their mother, you feel me? To where she been up a vendetta against my mama to where, yeah, that's why I don't think— Can I get a hand clap? Yeah, but it's still, I just backed away. I just separated myself. More things that, you know, which I don't know, like things that she did with my other siblings, she didn't put on any of us. Can I ask you a question?

You did say in this tape that your mother called you the R word. How did that affect you?

Made me feel really like low self-esteem. Made me feel lower than everybody. So I had a daughter at 16. That's what made me step outta my shield and stuff like that and let me, you know, like still have, still have, what is it called? Calm down, baby, relax. Like social anxiety and social awkwardness and stuff like that. Yes. Relax. So I'm still trying to find myself from all of that. Like I've been through a lot.

And you told my producer that your mom threatens to kill you to take your kids away from you?

Yes, like she had— I'mma talk to whoever's grandchild I got if I catch 'em and catch someone else. When I had my child at 16, she had been threatening me from on and on. So anytime CPS comes and stuff like that, I would think it's my mama and stuff like that. Like I have a trust problem with my mama because of things she say. I'm standing 10 toes down. If I feel like there's something going on with her child, her child, my other kids' child, Yes, ma'am. Like I grew up in the ECE, I was in ECE classes and stuff like that. So like I have a problem controlling my emotions. So she could push me onto going off and stuff like that. No, she's, we all have trouble, baby. You just never seen it, you never seen it. She just, you know, like we all do because. We all have it the same. My mama never did any drugs around us or nothing like that, but she was on drugs with us pregnant. So it causes her to have emotional problems.

I'm gonna go ahead and take a break really quickly.

We don't need no break, but listen.

We do, 'cause I'm the host of the show and that's what I say.

We're gonna take a break really quick and we'll be right back.

There's one more person we have to meet here, so everyone please welcome your other daughter, Shay, to the show.

Shay. Come on, Shay. You think I'm playing? I love you.

I love you more, baby. Shay, how do you feel about what you just heard?

Well, I feel pretty good. I just feel like y'all should slow down and listen to each other talk 'cause we definitely did not write Selena while she was in jail and we didn't go up to the hospital and then—

So you're confirming you think that the things that she's saying actually are true? Okay, so all of you feel like you didn't give her the support.

I also feel like what my mom said is true too. She did, I feel like my mom actually did her best and we don't really know how she was raised. She doesn't really talk about her childhood. So we should all just be like a little bit more understanding. Y'all wanna know my childhood? No, can I say one thing? And slow down and hear each other out. I definitely understand where you coming from because I remember those conversations that Daddy had with me in the car when I was a little girl. I know, but I'm saying that basically, I know how you feel. I know how you feel. I'm a first-time mom and I'm in a situation to where I'm not married, so. This is what I feel like about their relationship. Her daddy, like whatever she got against her daddy, that's what she has against her because she listens to her daddy. She, you know, it's daddy's girl. That's what hurts because I never told what daddy did. I never told why Cherry was out there so long or how Cherry was on drugs, you know? But I'm so tired of hearing about what Daddy said.

I gotta be real. Manipulation. I don't, and this is very rare for me, I don't know how to help you all. Yes, sir. I don't know how to help you all. I see confusion, I see negative traits, I see positive traits, I see manipulation, I see so much different things that I have no clarity of a baseline. Of where to start to help you all to get to a first step. So are you ever scared that your mother might treat your son the way, or your child the way that she treated you?

Oh no, she's only allowed supervised visits.

Oh, okay. So your mother has kidney failure, is that what's pushing you to mend this relationship?

No, it's strictly for my son, for him and for me to be a better mom towards him. I have to heal.

Got it. So what do you want from your mother today?

I want her to stop lying and be more compassionate towards me and just be real. Understand that I'm hurting. Please see me. Please have a real conversation and understand that you hurt me through everything that has happened in my life.

Yeah. So I gotta ask you, how do you feel about what was just said?

For the most part, I agree 100%. Okay. Some of the incidences, I don't know, maybe I have a lack of memory, maybe she saw it differently, but I'd like to unpack a few things. Mm-hmm. When she said that I'm hard or whatever, I had no choice at that time, but I've changed and I've tried to convey that I've changed multiple times. No, no, no, no. Yes. No, no, no. Yes, yes. What do you tell me all the time? I'm tired of walking on eggshells around you. That's not change. I have not said that to you in our past few conversations. I own everything. Yes, I was on drugs. I went to pursue my rap dreams. Yes, you did. And everything fell apart at home. Mm-hmm. I was lost, and I wanted to escape. Mm-hmm. Unfortunately, my drug of choice took over. Got it. And I was gone. But I haven't done that in 15 years. Okay, but hold on, hold on. What about all the times that you left me on the steps to go and do stuff like that? You're like, stay right here. But I was so scared of you that I stayed right there until I literally couldn't anymore. And that was terrible. You're my daughter, I'm your mother. At some point we should be able to have some form form of reconciliation. Whatever you need, I'm willing to give you. That's what I've been trying to tell you.

Did you do your best that you could as a mother, in your opinion?

Yeah. No, I don't think so. Unfortunately, I was a single mother of 4, and I made a ton of errors, bad judgment. Wait, hold on. I get that you were a single mother, but you had so much help and you also weren't around to be a single mom for real. You might have been a single mom because you weren't with my father, but you were never a mom. I mean, that's your opinion. That's a fact. There's a large portion of my life that I was not living with you. You have not always been a mom. Mom, please stop playing. What do you mean? We're here and we're having— Explain this in the past. Yes, I do. I can't get past it. Every single time I try to have a conversation with you, it's the same exact thing. What do you mean? You get hyper, you start crying.

So I wanna say this. Mia's husband Charles is in the audience. I wanna talk to him. Welcome. Thank you for being here. Thank you. Yeah. First of all, you look sharp. What do you feel about what was just said? I think conversations need to be had. I love both of them. I love my wife. I love my mother-in-law. What's the most important to me right now is our kid. But I— Yeah. So are you the one that's trying to make sure they mend their relationship? Yeah, so whenever she sees our kid, most of the time it's me who's taking our kid over to see her. 'cause I didn't grow up with both my grandparents, so it's important to me for our kid to grow up with his grandparents. Got it. But I also wanna see these two be able to be cordial. I don't want to have to go over there without my wife. I want to be able to take my wife to my mother-in-law's and be able to talk. I don't need them to be the best of friends, but I do want a relationship to be there because I don't want to continue this cycle of toxicity with, the next generation of children. [Speaker:KARAMO] Got it, yeah. Okay, I understand that. I have to tell you this, observing this, your husband said something and in all great attention because I know you love your wife, you said that you're here because you wanna make sure your son has a better life. And you're telling me, you know, your side of the story. But something you said at the beginning is that who was there for you? And I wanna make sure I'm here for you right now because I gotta tell you, Gwenny, I understand what you're saying, but there's a large part of me, and I'm a pretty good judge of character, I don't know if I truly believe what I'm witnessing in front of me. The way that you're saying to me about the drugs and the experience you had, I have complete empathy for what you went through because I'm sure you had your own struggles struggles and I know those struggles were rough. I know what addiction can do to you. I know that being alone with a child at that age, but also working in social services for over a decade, I understand what a child has went through. And when I hear a child tell me that they were left outside, that they, so you're telling me that she wasn't left outside?

In California? I'm not gonna say that she wasn't left outside because I know that what she got on her grades.

So you do know that she was?

But when we got evicted, Mia was the only one in school. And the reason that I asked the neighbor to keep her is so that she could finish that portion of school.

I get it. And— I understand what your intention was, but the impact of it was different.

When I seen it with my own two eyes, I immediately knew. But it took for you to see it with your own two eyes out of all of the situations. Okay, let me ask you another question. I definitely was wrong for not believing you.

You, but I— Were you abusive to her? Did you hit her? 'Cause she said—

I hit everybody, yes. I grew up with an iron fist. Yes, I did. Okay. I don't recall the incident that— You don't recall that? Can I speak? No. I don't recall the situation where she had two black eyes and somebody called the cops. You don't recall that situation? Not at all.

The thing for me is that I don't need that. This only story that matters to me is a story of your daughter telling me her experience.

Okay. And so— Well, I need to verify and clarify because yes, I did.

I told you. I think that's the point that I'm trying to make with you is that even though you're saying I wanna take accountability, I wanna move on, and I'm hearing you, true accountability and truly Understanding what your daughter experienced is not negating any story that you think is different than yours. Your daughter is telling you that as a child, and you've admitted you were on drugs, things were hard. And I'm not gonna take that away from you. If it's so important for you to heal, then why is it not just okay to say, wow, okay, I hear your truth. Why do you have to defend that? Because what happens and what keeps you in a cycle What keeps y'all in the cycle of her feeling like this boundary where I can't help my mother and not be there is because she feels like every time I tell you my truth, it's always gonna be negated. And I've watched on this stage, you've told your truth about your experience and she has not interrupted you to negate your experience. Every time she tells you something that you feel is wrong, you negate her experience.

And you know what? That's what she's been complaining about the whole time. I have. That's been her issue the whole time. I get it.

Stand and let her get it out.

I have no empathy or compassion for a lot of the things that she dealt with. And it's sad, but I can't, I'm sorry.

But you will. Don't never ask me about it. 'Cause if you switch that from I can't, switch to past, till I will, work on the present, I promise you things will get better.

And that's what I've been asking for. That's what I've been telling her. How come you don't hold me? How come you don't tell me everything's gonna be okay? That happened, but I'm here for you now. You don't do that. You're doing that now, right now, but you don't do that. I don't, but you brought me here to get better. So I'm not, what you're saying is not fake. You know that I want to get, I want to do the work. I don't know that. Okay. Well, I'm willing to show you.

There you go. That's it. Now, I know that's not going to heal it, but what happened here today is that your mother has finally heard it. This is step one. It's gonna take you some time to believe it.

And I'm willing to put in that, as long as God gives me that time.

Are you willing to say to your mom that I hear you and I'm willing to I'm willing to give you a chance to show me.

I hear you and I'm willing to give you a chance to show me. Thank you.

And if you can say to her, I promise you, I will show you and be there for you because I know I wasn't.

I promise you, I'm gonna show you and be there for you 'cause I know I wasn't.

So I believe it can work out. And especially as you're on your health journey, I think it's important for y'all to figure this out. I promise you, you're welcome. Good luck to both of y'all. I'll be in contact. My guest Kimberly says her mother put her in dangerous situations. Tragically, Kimberly was sexually assaulted at the age of 9. And if that wasn't hard enough, she became pregnant at the age of 14 years old. She wants her mother to take accountability for the trauma she caused. They are both here to see if this relationship can be saved. Help me welcome Kimberly to the show so we can hear her side of the story. Hello, Kimberly. Can I have a hug? Nice to meet you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. You look great.

Thank you. He was awesome. Thank you.

So tell me about your relationship with your mom.

I was basically raised on survival and not love. Just a lot of struggle. I was raped at 9. Yeah. She went to prison for 2 years, and I was molested by family members everywhere I went. Yeah. From household to household, just trying to stay with people. I've been homeless. I got pregnant at 14, had my baby at 15. I dropped out of 10th grade to take care of him, try to raise him and do everything I can. Yeah. It's just been a rough life. Yeah, and how old are you now? I'm 28 today. 28, oh, happy birthday. Thank you. Thank you.

Well, hopefully we'll get you some accountability seeing a relationship with your mother for your birthday. Yes. So when was the last time you two were together?

We've been separated for a year and a half, but she did come visit for Thanksgiving.

Got it, got it. And when she came to visit you on Thanksgiving, how did that go?

I can say like dry. You know, it's more of like, let's go do this together, let's do this together, but I can't get close to her because it's already a wall built up of resentment. So she tries to be close, but I'm just at a point where if I don't get the healing that I need, I can't go on no further.

Yeah. Was she supportive after your assault? Yes. She was supportive?

She was supportive. What did she do? We had to go to trial and everything, so she was by my side the entire process. Got it, okay.

Did you ever confront her about it? About where was she?

The little girl in me has been kind of terrified to have that conversation, 'cause I don't know if she's gonna take the accountability, so.

Is that what you're mostly looking for?

Yes. Accountability? Yes.

Has she ever apologized?

Kinda like acts of service.

Did you ever have a father figure in your life?

Yes, my sister's father. Okay. Kinda looked after me, raised me as his own.

Okay, did you know your dad?

I did, but I had a horrible relationship with him. Okay.

How's your relationship with your mom now?

I'm trying to get it to be like a real mom and daughter relationship, 'cause it hasn't felt like that my whole life.

What is the definition of that for you?

A protector, a provider. Everything that happened to me, I feel like It could have been avoided. So I'm angry about it because I didn't deserve it. And I haven't been able to tell her this stuff 'cause I'm scared, you know? So I haven't been able to relay that. Yeah.

Well, I'm glad you could be here. I'm here to support you through this. Here you go, love. Thank you. You're welcome. I'm sorry. No, you don't. Never apologize here. For your emotions. Never that. Well, I think it's time to meet your mother Althea. Um, so everyone please welcome Althea to the show.

Hello. I did everything I could. Everything. I, I did everything. I, I don't know what you want from me. I, I try to do everything for you. I mean, I put myself in a situation where I could have went back to Prison. I was gonna kill him. I'm sorry, Karamo.

No, no, you fine. I'm sorry.

But I mean, I don't know what else you want from me. I've tried. I held it in too. I held it in. And I'm sorry. I told him that pain because I was scared of your reaction being like that.

Have you tried to mend your relationship with her? I'm sorry. Me? Yes. Yes.

How do you think you've tried to mend it? I mean, I heard a little bit, so yeah, I give. I mean, you know, she moved to South Carolina, I moved. I moved to be closer to her. You know, still no relationship, still no phone calls, still no texts. Still, I don't know if she's safe. I don't know what's going on. So I put forth the effort, you know what I mean? Like, I tell them all the time, the last 15 years I have given to them to try to be better because I made mistakes.

In your opinion, what needs to happen today to fix your relationship? 'Cause you said you've moved closer, you said you gave gifts. What do you think needs to happen?

I need her to meet me. Okay. Because I've been giving, I have been giving.

But you told me that the things you gave, it didn't work in fixing the relationship. So maybe the things you were giving, 'cause from what I'm hearing, it's sounding like you're saying, I need you to hit me up. Meet me halfway, but she's like, the things you were giving is not what I needed you to give me. So how can I meet you halfway when I don't even think you took the first step? So Kimberly, what is it do you need from your mom?

A genuine apology and for me to be able to express how I felt because I've held it in so long. Go for it. And I'm going to speak my truth I want you to take accountability for putting me in dangerous situations. The rape, homelessness, when you went to prison and I experienced molestation by family members. I want you to take accountability for messing me up. Take accountability for not protecting me from those situations. You took my childhood from me and I just wish that you would've protected my childhood. That's all I wanna say. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And I take accountability. I do. I take accountability. Everything, for everything. Everything. No weight that you have is too heavy for me to hold. I promise you that. So you give it to me today and I got you.

Kimberly, what I'm gonna tell you is that I'm so proud of you for finding your voice. How do you think your mother can step up for you?

I wanna be able to call my mama in the middle of the night if I have a dream of something that happened to me in the past. I don't wanna be judged by it.

Can you commit to, if she calls you, to protect her by not judging her? Absolutely.

Tell her. Yeah, anytime you call me, I will never ever judge you.

Kimberly, what I realized today is that I think you've taken a very big step in finding your voice. And what I'm most also proud of is I can tell you do watch this show because the way that you've been listening actively and empathetically is exactly what I hope when I tell people every end of every show, let's keep talking and growing, is that you can talk and listen and grow together as a family. And so I actually do believe your mother's gonna hear you And I believe that this is the first step where you can start to build that trust again. And I hope you feel like you have been heard. You do? Good. I do. Good, good. Because you deserve that and so much more. And I believe that your mother's gonna help you get that.

Absolutely.

Thank you for being here to listen to her. Thank you. Thank you, you're so welcome. Thank you so much. You got everything you need? You got it? Good, give it up for Kimberly, y'all. Give it up for her. And for you too, Mom. Was it true that you pulled off her wig in public? Yes.

But that's when we first got together. A couple times we were together, I used to want to see her real hair.

And I used to say, I'm gonna pull your wig off. Now, you a black man now. And I just pulled it off, I pulled it off. I'm asking, brother, brother.

But you pulled it off because when I pulled it— To do that in public, that's humiliating. But she made me mad. And then at the same time— That's the type of stuff that you should've did behind doors.

She made you mad, so you want to humiliate her, so that's why you pulled it off.

Yeah, and at the same time I was messing with her. I said, I'm pull your, I tell her first, I'm finna pull your wig off. But you don't, you never take mom's feelings into consideration. Like you don't think that hurt her, humiliating her to have that done to her in public in front of everybody, whether they knew you guys or not. Like that's— Listen, my wife, her mama is stronger than what she saying. Mm-hmm. She is. Yeah, her momma strong. Her mom is a strong woman, but— She— That's why when me and her be doing that, that don't really phase her. Yes, it does. It does. I don't think so. You don't think so? She don't let you— She would never show a sign of weakness to you. Yeah. 'Cause she is a strong woman, but deep down inside, that hurts my mom. To hear my mom on the phone crying and saying how you treated her and disrespected her, that breaks my heart. But she do that with y'all on little arguments. It doesn't matter how little or small it is. You're hurting your wife. Do you drink a lot?

Yeah. Okay. So there's substance abuse issues? Drinking. Drinking, okay. Eddie, thank you for telling me, 'cause I needed just to get your side of the story, so now I have a very clear picture of everything. But now I think it's time to talk to your mother, Juanita, and get her side of the story. So everyone please welcome Juanita to the show.

He has no reason to believe other than something in his head 'Cause he has no evidence.

Well, I heard earlier that every time you think she has somebody new in her phone that you buy her a brand new phone and make her change the number.

Yeah, because she, she stopped being on the phone with me. That's wrong. That is really wrong. For real. I never heard of this.

So I stopped buying her phones. You don't cheat on her? 'Cause you a ladies' man. You ever cheat on her?

I ain't cheat on her. I swear I don't cheat on her.

How many ladies you got calling you? How many ladies you got calling you?

I ain't got no problem.

You came out here with this smooth watch. Let me talk to you real quick.

You got a smooth watch, this hair.

I know you got a bunch of ladies talking to you. How many ladies you got talking to you?

I love my wife, but still. I love you too, but the disrespect and the controlling. You got some girlfriends. The player type. We argue every day. Listen, it's important that you know, tell the truth. If somebody talking to you, Talk to you crazy, you gonna talk to them crazy.

No, I'm a little more evolved than most people.

That's what she do, she'll sit up and talk to me crazy. But he started it. Yeah, uh-huh. He started it all day, every day.

He brought you here to unlock your phone to see if you're cheating. Fine. How'd that make you feel?

I don't mind, 'cause I'm done. You don't mind?

Mm-hmm. And what do you hope? You think you'll catch her cheating? If I, if, yeah. You think you'll catch her cheating? I'm not gonna really be, I'm gonna just be real.

I'm gonna be grateful and thankful grateful to God, but I'm gonna be in a deep thought about her all over again.

Why stay married?

I tell them all the time, lately it's gotten so bad because we argue every day. Yeah, everywhere we go, Karamo.

Yeah. Do you drink every single day? Yeah, I try to.

It's so bad. I have something to say. I'm my mom's daughter and it's really to you, Eddie. First thing I wanna say is, Eddie, you haven't fooled me since day one. I seen those red flags before y'all even said I do. I was supportive when y'all got married. Y'all picked me up on the U-Haul. I partied with y'all and everything because I also thought too for a second that y'all getting married would make things a little better. But from the day you said I do, it has been 10 times worse. But really the red flags was there before even I said I do.

What were the red flags you saw before? Talk to me about it.

Eddie just being all the time accusing my mom. He even accused my mom with her son, with, and my brother, he's like 20-something years old. Her friends accused my mom for sleeping with my husband just to start turmoil for my mom coming over my house. I live in Pennsylvania with my mom.

My mom— Eddie, is that true? You accused her of sleeping with her daughter's husband? Is that true?

I've seen her do some things.

So that is true? I've seen when we was in Dallas, Okay, my mom catches the bus to my house.

She gets dropped off by the police to my house probably like every other day. 30 days out the month, they fighting 28 days. And like I said, you want to say we're not in it and this your wife? Well, that's my mom and I was here first and you put me in.

We ended up unlocking both of your phones, but we've just heard that every single time you do something, you get a brand new phone.

But I don't do anything.

I know, I understand what you're saying from his perspective. So my unlock the phone investigator went through both of your phones, we searched your apps, your text, your GPS, and there was nothing to be found on either your phone. So I'm going through that quickly because that's not a concern of me and it shouldn't be a concern of y'all's either because obviously as adults we already know that he's already controlling the phone situation. So having it unlocked here is just for show because you already know what's going on her phone. You get it on your phone every single day. Yeah. And never. Yeah.

And he don't never know what I—

But there was something that I thought was very suspicious. I didn't understand how it was that your neighbor kicks in the door and now hearing you, you said that you left the door unlocked for this neighbor you're sleeping with. That's true. That's what happened. Okay. That's true. So, and I hear you, but for me there's inconsistency 'cause me, I'm all about tracking stories. Yeah. And I'm talking about, I'm tracking facts. I'm all about facts over feelings. So I asked you if you'd be willing to take a lie detector test so that we could get to the bottom of some truth of this, 'cause I really want to know, and this is a good gauge for me of where I'm going with this. Our lie detector examiner asked Eddie, regarding the damage done to the door, when it was broken open, are you in any way responsible for any of the damage? And you said no. That you are not responsible in any way for the damage of that door. So I want to tell Locke the truth of this matter. What do you think this truth is gonna tell me? Is it gonna tell me that you did nothing to do with this door?

Nothing to do with it. They left that door unlocked.

Okay. Well, the truth is, Eddie, that you are not telling the truth, that you were the one that damaged that door. I knew it.

I ain't break that door down. How dare you do that? I knew it, Eddie. Them laddies threw that door. I had small children in the house. Them lying, them lie detectors lying. You messed up their— For real, them lie detectors lying. What about the safety for my kids? So now I welcomed you into my house.

My question is what else could you be lying about? Eddie, let me tell you something right now, brother. I'm a fair person. I gave you an opportunity to come out here and tell me your side. I did, man. And from the beginning, you have told me your side. And what you painted for me from outta your own mouth is that you humiliated her at the beginning of your relationship. Because you felt hurt, that you said you have been verbally abusive, that you said that you don't mind controlling her, that's why you take the phones. These are your words, on the record.

Well, listen, bro, it ain't that I try to really be that way to her. I'm like that with everybody.

You said— That doesn't help your case any.

On top of that, on top of that, you said you got substance abuse issues.

Now I gotta talk to you right here because you said You have your two daughters right here that are pleading. I see the pain, I see their body language, and I see that they're worried for you. Hearing you go through things like you have to get in the police cars, you are scared to tell your man that you're going on a trip with your daughters. Yes. Breaking doors, setting lawns on fire. Yes. Your daughter is not lying when she says this is dangerous. Yes. Love has been outta this relationship for a very long time. I think so too. You know it's true. Yes. What is keeping you in this relationship?

I'm hoping he'll change, but it's gotten to the point we argue every day.

Well, Juanita, I gotta ask you this. You can't listen to that crowd, honey. Juanita. Juanita. Yes. I'm watching him do what he's doing at home, and I'm gonna say this to you. The same way you just said you can't listen to your daughters, you said you can't listen to the crowd. Next you're gonna tell you can't listen to me.

Because people can be influenced. That's why he's saying where— and that's what I'm saying. They be like—

so let me tell you, that's part of control, is you want her to only be influenced by you. But I don't say nothing like, uh, when I say—

when they talking about control, I'm talking about the way we eat, the way we, uh, shop, go places, stuff like that. It ain't controlling like dog sit down and that type of control. Yeah.

So because your definition is limited in what control is in a relationship.

I just, right, we used to you having to think a certain way and they, they want to run us, huh? Yeah.

Being controlling in a relationship doesn't mean that you just only command someone to do one thing or another. It also expresses the way that you treat her, the way that you express her to be in relation to other people, the way that you allow her to live her life, the way that you interact with each other. Control is more than just commands and you have exhibited control in everything that you have done with her. Do you understand from that definition how you're controlling? Yeah, you do, 'cause you're a smart man.

Hey, I still don't think I'm controlling. I think I'm better for it.

Juanita, I need to know. Can we switch spots with your mom for me? Yes. Thank you. Because this is beyond any talk show we're on now. Your daughters have come here because they're pleading for your safety. Right. I understand. This is your daughters that are pleading for you.

And I've been trying to get out and I'm going to get out. That's—

What is stopping you from getting out?

I have— 'Cause she with a good. That's what's stopping you. No. I'm gonna ask you— I have love for him.

I'm gonna ask you right now. I'm gonna ask you a clear question before I go any further. Do you, you're not in love? Do you want to end this relationship right now or do you want to stay stay in it. The answer is leave or stay. Leave. You wanna leave? So I just wanna let you know, I'm not here to judge you. I want to hear your side of the story as well, honestly, because I heard what your son had to say and I want to hear from you what was going on during those times that you two weren't together.

And this me signing him away? I didn't never sign him away. To nobody. Shirley. And this is not what I came out here to do. He is not gonna bash me. I'm not bashing you. This is when he said I punched him in the chest 'cause he thought he was man enough or big enough to fight me. Ain't nothing that came out of me gonna see him jump on me and think they man enough to whoop my ass. Uh-uh. I ain't it. Okay, let's talk about facts. Let's talk about facts. How did I go all the way through school without parent signature? You were supposed to come back and get me. That ain't it. I got receipts, Shirley. You literally cannot sit here and say like you did not sign over kinship to— I got paperwork. You let— That day when you jumped on me and I told your ass, look. This is literally— And me bullying you? No, I told you like this, I knew what you was when you was 3 years old. I knew you were gay. And I told you, be what you are and be the best that you are 'cause you always half of me. Period. So sure. Okay, but why didn't that translate to actions, right? Why were you never in my corner backing me up? Why were you never cheering for me? How come I went through my entire— Just like when that boy tried to whoop your ass and I told you better tear his up, I was gonna whoop your one, period. I never sat here and I had your corner.

Describe from your own words, what was your relationship like with Brandon back then?

Brandon had his— Brandon had his own functional attitude. She doesn't even know that when I left home, I tried to take my own life. She has no clue. Do you even know that? Did you even know I even tried to take mine too? It's always a one-up. Shirley has to one-up everything. Do you know how many nights I stayed up crying over y'all? Oh, okay. That's when I say okay. What was I looking for? Because again, it's always the one-up, right? You know what I mean? Like, oh, I was crying, so, oh, I'm crying too. Well, baby, we both crying. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. You know what I mean?

We're both crying. Shirley, did you get into fights with your other children?

I whooped my oldest daughter's ass 'cause she thought she could whoop my ass too.

Was that what happened to you when you were a child?

My mama tore my ass up all the time. Okay. So what's the difference?

Why didn't you want your son in your house when he was 2?

'Cause when you think you're grown than me, then you need to be out on your own. Okay, well.

But he was 13.

But when you think you're grown into me, then you need to be on your own.

Do you feel like Brandon is unfairly blaming you for the past?

They can blame me all they want to.

But do you think he's unfairly blaming you? Yeah. Okay. Why do you think he's unfairly blaming you?

I know I did my wrong. Ain't no parent perfect. Nobody. Nobody's perfect. I made amends. I tried to apologize and all of that. No. Shirley, when did you reach out to me and try to apologize? Things I need to do to make my past, to get over my past, to make— When did you reach out to me to apologize? But I'm not going to keep— When did you reach out to me to apologize? Trying to make my— When did you reach out to me and apologize? My past is what made me here and brought me here today. When have you reached out and apologized? I've done things for Brandon and done said things and told Brandon I love him and forgive me for what I did wrong. I done said that over the phone many, many times. Shirley, I'm going to say Shirley, keep apologizing for what I— I say you just said— tried to to make right.

But he's saying to you right now that he hasn't heard that apology. So I will give her credit.

She did reach out to me last year when I was in the hospital. She did buy me food and pay half my rent 'cause I was in the hospital, right? I will give her that. I will give her that credit. But when she says, "I love you and I apologize," sometimes it's hard to believe what's real and what's not real.

You know what I mean? Yeah, because of the years that you felt like you had to lie.

Because of all the hurt. So it's hard to take the real from the fake.

So what did you need from Shirley back then?

What I needed from Shirley back then was someone who's gonna protect me, someone who's gonna cheer for me, someone in my corner, someone to advocate for me. Because I went through a lot. Whether she wants to believe it and admit it or not, I went through a lot as a child.

Do you believe you did those things for him when he was younger? Protect him, cheer for him?

I did give him praise and I still give him praise. Whether he believe it or not, that's on him. Okay. That's on him. I tell him now till the day when I speak to him, I'm proud of you.

Yeah.

Whether he choose to believe it or not, that's on him. But it's easy to be proud of someone when you didn't help create that amazing person. You know what I mean?

Look at her right now and tell her, what did you need from her back then?

I needed you to be there. Even if I wasn't there, I can still tell you to the day, I'm proud of you, period. I can still tell you I'm proud of you. Somebody ain't got to be there. If you feel like they want, they can still be proud of you, of who you are as a person, as a man or whatever. They can still, just like my mama won't do for me, but I'm still proud of me. You've taught me so many things indirectly. You taught me what I wanted from a partner. She was in a very abusive relationship growing up. And watching that, and I went through an abusive relationship. The guy who was my boyfriend was also my bully, believe it or not. And I thought that was normal because that's what she went through. But as I got older, I realized I don't want anyone hitting me. I don't want anyone talking down to me. Yeah, yeah. So she's taught me so many things indirectly, which is why I'm here. Like, I wanna be able to start fresh. But we can't start fresh without addressing the past. It shouldn't have taken me being in the hospital for you to reach out. But we was reaching out before that too, little bit by little bit.

Shirley, when he was younger, were you in survival mode? Yeah. Yeah. What was that like for you? 'Cause now just getting this other information that you didn't know.

I've been on my own since I was 16. Yeah, that's great. So, and I took care of mine. I did what I had to do to take care of mine. Yeah. So I worked, I hustled a little bit. So I did what I had to do to take it. They didn't go without. Yeah. So I will say this woman is a true fighter. I've, again, I've seen, Everything. Yeah. Everything. Yeah. I've seen everything. Again, she has taught me, and I think that's where I get my strength from. So I feel like I get my survival mode and my strength and my wariness from her. Shirley, I wanna know. I didn't lie to him. Okay, that's a little bit of a stretch. When I hustled, I never lied to y'all when I was hustling. Okay. I didn't lie to y'all. All right. Y'all knew where the money was and everything. Yeah. Shirley, 'cause hold on. I didn't know what the other stuff was, but Daddy just said anything happened, the money was such place.

Shirley, your son wants a resolution. I know you just said you thought you were working on it, but it seems like in this moment in his life, the abandonment that he felt, and I can tell that from your perspective, it was like you did the best you could. Hearing now also you were 16, that you were on your own. It's not that I'm excusing behavior, I'm not doing that. But what I'm saying is I could understand where you were. I understand now more the aggression. But your son is saying to you right now that I want to build more of a relationship, but I don't feel like you're hearing me when I say I was hurt. Can you just acknowledge that he was hurt?

Okay, he was hurt. Can you acknowledge that? But you see how she says it though?

But hold on, no, no, no, because this is what I'm gonna say to you because I'm on your side. So one of the things that you have to let go is that if you really want a relationship with her, whatever she says and how she says it, you've gotta try to give her the benefit of the doubt from this point on. She's saying to you, I can acknowledge, but in your mind you're like, it's not what I want. It's not what I want. We have to understand especially about generational wounds and trauma. And that's what we're experiencing. Your mother didn't have the tools. Tools. And again, I'm not excusing behavior, but she didn't have tools and she did the best she could. I do believe you tried. I do believe. But I also know that her trying left you feeling very abandoned and alone because she didn't know what to do. What do you need for her to say, to forgive this and start to move on? What do you need?

I think what I need is just her to be there, be more active, be more visible. To genuinely call and say, "Hey, how are you doing? What do you need from me today?" When I invite you to things, I want you to be like, "Okay, I'm coming." Okay. I'm about to get married. I want you to be there.

Okay. Do you wanna be this early?

Oh yeah.

Yeah, you do?

So I could dance in the middle for some, "Thank the Lord he's married now." I noticed something.

You use humor to mask your feelings and it's a protection for you. I get it, I get it. I see it now. 'Cause even when you were saying, "I want you to be there," your body language moved closer to you. She moved into you. She does wanna be there and she gave you an apology on this show today. And I think that should be the first step for you to know that you can heal this. I do believe your mother hears you. I truly do. I truly do. Shirley, is there anything you wanna say to your son before we go? You know I love you.

I love you with all my heart. Do anything for you, I'll be there. Thank you. All lies. Okay. All lies, all fabrication. I was there when your children came home. I was there when they're crying and crawling around in their sleep, calling for their mom. I was there when they peed in the bed from the trauma. I was there. 3 CPS cases that I've had to take over your children because you left, but they still confirmed the abuse happened.

Was CPS called 3 times on—

No, I called CPS on myself before because I told them that it's not normal 'cause I needed help. I didn't know what to do. You do. I always had babysitters. So were there 2 other cases?

'Cause you're saying they're mine.

There's at least 3. There's not. There's not. If there was, I would not have custody of my kids. I would not be their custodial parent. And they would not be with me. You know what? You can find the paperwork. The cases are available. So let me ask you a question. If that's the case, why do you keep releasing them to my care? Don't you have an obligation to manage them? I don't release them to your care. I try to work with you because woman to woman, I want the children to be with their mother because that's the way it is. These are our cubs. Mom. And let me tell you something. I'm the matriarch of my family, the leader of my family. That's the narcissism right there. The narcissism right there, y'all. Even if you do not want to take responsibility for your kids. Listen to me. I know what I'm saying.

To help. Both of you are making a lot of accusations. I'm going to ask you, she said she went to rehab, she said she got better, she said she's trying. Do you believe that she's sober? No. You do not believe she's sober?

I believe she went to rehab, but I believe she should have gone for some type of opiate or some kind of drug. And I'll tell you why, because, because this boyfriend here told me, he said that they would go into the bathroom and she would take drugs with her friends. I would smoke marijuana. Oh my God, she was, wasn't present mentally with her children.

So in your opinion, she wasn't present because this man said there was drugs?

I believe she wasn't present because she was medicating, self-medicating her mental illness. I smoke weed. I don't. That's what I do. I don't smoke any of it.

Have you ever had a drug?

And PTSD is what's been caused by you and you and your problems. Never. Projecting on me my whole life. I've never done anything.

She says you're projecting how you feel. Oh my goodness, you've never done anything?

I feel that She does it because it works.

So JL, I know your brother is in the audience, Jayden. Jayden, how are you doing?

Hi.

I gotta tell you, Jayden, it breaks my heart to see your mother and your sister like this. It breaks mine. Because I do want to help you both, and I'm trying to connect the dots of figuring out how I can help you. So I need somebody who's in the house, who's around them, What story is true?

Honestly, from what I can tell, she feels fake a lot of the time.

Who, your sister? My sister feels fake?

Yes, you feel fake. Well, because I don't show my authentic self to my mom because I always get backlash when I do. No, we never had a relationship. You never had a relationship? I know that, and I'm sorry about that.

Jayden, I wanna ask you a question.

How old are you? I'm 19. You're 19.

So are the claims that your mother's making, because you're old enough to say you can witness this, about CPS and about this abuse, are those things real? Yes, I've had to have conversations with CPS workers.

That's not true. Multiple times.

You have? Yes.

That's not true. So when CPS came, it wasn't 3 times that I've had it called on me. That's not true. And I'm sorry that she told you that or whatever she told you. Did she tell you that or did you talk to them? You can say whatever you want about Mom. I'm going to. I'm gonna say my truth and I'm putting it into it today. Let him say it. Speak. Go ahead, baby. You can say whatever you want about her, but from what I've seen, you are not exactly the best person. That's fine, you can have your opinion about me based on what she's telling you because— No, it's not wrong for what you and her have a different dynamic than me and her. You were born when I was 15, baby, so you don't know what I went through with this woman. Oh really? And you also do not know— Oh, I had to live through it with your kids. You are emotionally manipulative.

What are you talking about? So Jackie, you told my producers that you think that JL is still doing drugs. What do you think she's using?

I don't think she's doing drugs like that. I think she self-medicates because she has anxiety. Well, that's using drugs. Yes. She's just making this stuff up. It's anxiety, I think. If I was using drugs to self-medicate, I wouldn't be honest about my marijuana use.

Did you tell my producers that you think that You think your daughter needs a drug test?

Yes, I do believe she does.

Why do you think she needs a drug test?

I think she needs a drug test so we can see how long or if she is taking something because— We can do that today.

And what is that gonna do for you if you find out?

It'll help us all understand maybe why her state of mind. She has no emotion even with her children.

Do you wanna take a drug test? I just heard you say yes.

We can take a drug test. It's gonna have marijuana on it.

If you think that drugs could be an issue and you're saying agree, let's get that off the table. Okay. Yes, sir. Because what I need to start doing is I need to start chopping away at some of whatever this BS is so that I can know. So if we think it's drugs, let's get it on the table. If we think it's mental health, we need to sketch some things because right now it's just back and forth. So what we're gonna do is we're gonna have you go backstage and we're gonna have you take the drug test right now.

Okay, let's do it.

Like if you go backstage, my producer's gonna meet you. Your concern is there could be drug use that could be causing your daughter to be in an erratic state, correct? Yes. An emotional state. Yes. We just gave you a drug test right now. So you tested negative for all drugs in your system except for marijuana. So, so we now know and have clarity your daughter is not on drugs. You can't make accusations based on her past. Because what's happening here, you're in defense mode because you had a past, you've owned up to it, you're ashamed, you're still feeling guilt, but you're trying to be better. Your mother is afraid that some reason you're gonna slip back into that past. And so she's trying to do everything to look for any sign that says you're gonna slip back in that past so that she can save everybody else before things go awry. Am I right? Yes. Perfect., but the problem of this matter is that things are not going awry. Your daughter has stepped up and she's doing what she needs to do. So you don't need to be in protective mode right now. Okay. You don't. Yeah. You don't. Because you being in protective mode right now is causing issues. It's the truth of the matter. At this point, you need to take a step back. Yes. You have to take a step back. Yes. And what you have to also do is stop judging her for her past and let her be who she is today. Thank you.

Thank you.

But you gotta take some ownership right now too. For sure, for sure. Because you've been engaged in this. Yes. And at the end of the day, I had a whole 20 minutes of confusion of like where the kids were at when you could have just clearly said, my mom watches my kids 5 days a week so they can go to school. You got custody of your kids.

I sure do. Thank you.

You got custody of your kids. There's no open secret. There's no open CPS case. Nope. So you can't say that she's controlling you.

Yeah, and a lot of it is because I'm scared to—

Nope, it's yes. Yes, good. Yes, it's yes. I need you to hear that. It's yes. Yes. Because you came out here and said your mom was controlling you, but your mother's not controlling you. You're still afraid just the same way she is that you're gonna slip back into your past. But there is a little bit of your fear from the past that's haunting you as well. The guilt from your past is haunting you as well. But you've done the work, girl. You own the work you've done. Own it. And don't let her opinion of your past, don't let your little brother's opinion of your past, don't let nobody's opinion of your past stop you from acknowledging the work you're doing and show your kids that yes, mom made mistakes, but I wanna be here now. And that's what it is. And if something happens, I already know you're gonna step in. And because I know you will, but until something happens, you don't need to step in. You don't need to step in no more. I agree. And that's just it.

You understand? Yes, I agree.

So that's it. No more going in circles anymore. And what I know both of you need to do, you need to fall back, you need to step up. And that's it. Thank you.

Can y'all do that? Yes, I can do that.

No more of this circle. No more like, oh my gosh, it was this day and this day and that and that. Done. And I think that if y'all can both stop engaging, you step up, you step back, everything's gonna be all right. All right. Thank you. Listen, everybody. It took me some time, but we got to the bottom of this situation.

Like you bringing up shit over 30 years ago. That's the damn point. And if you got fucking issues with shit over 30 years ago, baby, you need counseling, not me. What I need for you to do is grow the fuck up. You damn near 40 years old, boo-boo. And so the things that you have done, you never apologize. And you don't see me, you're a devil to this day. Right now? You dead. See what I'm saying? You're dead. My truth is mine. And I will never break my neck to do shit else for you. You gonna bring up some shit over 30 years ago, Karamo? How do you get from the past to the— you have to take account of the past. The past, me and the future. You have to take account of what you did. And if you got— you need to go get counseling, boo-boo. It's on. Go get you some counseling, baby. If you got them problems, you 40. You calling me every day, take me here, take me this, take me to work. I just started, you been 2 weeks ago, you got into it with me and told me you don't give a fuck about my job. And I don't. Exactly. So? She do not care about nothing. And don't give a fuck, no.

So you said that your daughter's dead to you and you don't care. Do you really mean that?

I mean it. She just killed that relationship.

She killed it all. What did she say that would kill that relationship? All that old shit. Girl, please. So just because she was talking about the past.

I don't care, she ain't have to vent like that. We could've talked about this. And we did. No, we didn't. So don't sit there and lie. You didn't cuss me out in front of my aunt on the phone and told me what you just said now? Fuck the parents. And what still? You still said it. The past. Exactly. You never apologize or take accountability. I'm not. I'm not. She don't care. I'm not. She don't care. And I don't. Believe that. I don't. So how do you expect for someone to think that you love them when they don't take accountability for nothing? You don't take accountability for nothing. You didn't— you never said, Ashley, if you feel a certain way, I'm sorry I made you feel less than a child or less than a mother. You don't treat me like a mother. You don't treat me Be like an adult. Act like one.

Can I ask you this, Regina? I understand that for you the past is not important, but if she's saying it's important to her, why aren't you able just to say, "I apologize," and—

'Cause I'm not, and it's over with, and I'm not apologizing for shit. Never have and never will. And she's not. And I'm not. And she means it.

And I mean it. I know that my producers told me that recently you've helped with your daughter?

You've been helping her? I does everything. I kept her kids while she ran around from Ohio to Detroit. Shut up, I'm talking. She left, went to Ohio, then she went to Detroit, then she ended up in Florida. Who had her kids? I did. And you choke slammed my baby and my brother, my baby daddy. Exactly. Stressed out. So you, you harm your grandkid because you're stressed out? Whatever. She can't explain to you why she let them men say that to me. She can't explain to you why that happened. I can't stop nobody from what they say to you. I wasn't there. But you didn't do nothing about it. What the fuck you want me to do? You been whooping their ass, whoop their ass again. Bitch, you sound stupid. See what I'm saying? Grown men say that to your child. Whatever, you shouldn't have been in there fucking with them. He was messing with us and you know that's a lie. Ashley, bye.

I understand that you wanna ask your mother something. What did you wanna ask her?

Like, do she really love me? Because if you tell somebody you don't give a fuck about them and you show them. I ain't never went through all this. My mama, hey, I love my mama. My grandma ain't never talked to you like you talk to me. My mama used to call me bitches 24/7. You think because your mama called you bitches it's okay to call you, that's where childhood trauma come from. She spin around in a circle at my auntie house telling my grandma, you don't love me, but I'm bringing up the past, so obviously you got issues from your past. I'm gonna ask, well, you feel my grandma don't love you? No, my mama love me. Okay, so why you told her she didn't in my auntie house when you spent around in the circle crying, talking about you don't love me, you don't love me, and you don't love me? I meant everybody in the house. I was talking to everybody. My mama wasn't even in the conversation, so. Yes, she was. No, she wasn't. Now you're lying. No, she wasn't.

Okay, okay. Ashley, can I talk to your mom for a little bit? That's fine. Can you ride it back? That's fine. Thank you. Regina, come on close. All right, so I asked your daughter to leave because I could tell with y'all both being out here, we gonna get nowhere. And I know when I asked you what your, you said you came out here with the hopes of the relationship being better or having a nice time or figuring something out. That's why I was like, let her leave. Because if that's somewhere in you, that means, I know right now you said she's dead to you, but there's somewhere in you that still had that feeling just a couple hours ago. That means it's not fully gone yet. I wanna know what hurt you personally about what she just said.

Because she went back over 30 years ago. Like if that shit bothered you then, why you ain't say nothing to me then? Let's talk about the new shit. Let's talk about you. Okay, yeah, I called you a bitch, so what? Everybody done called they child a bitch.

I'm not the only one. You said that's what your mother said to you? Yeah. And sometimes you'd be called that? Yeah. Did it make you feel any way?

It didn't bother me. It didn't bother me because I knew that was my mother and that was her way. So you just accepted it? I accepted it. I mean, you know, I know I ain't no bitch. I know I ain't no dog. You know what I'm saying? So it never bothered me. But Ashley can't sit here and act like she had no right 'cause she didn't.

My kids ain't never wanted for shit. She did say that you gave her support. She said—

Oh, I did. I always supported her and still support her. I don't have no problem helping my children. I would give them the world. But what you're not gonna do is sit up here and bring up no old shit that I can't even, I can't.

You can't do anything about it.

I can't do anything about that.

Yeah, yeah. Internally, there's something else going on. Internally, they want to be protected.

She got daddy issues, I get it. You know, her daddy never been in her life and I never gave a damn 'cause I took care of mine. Yeah, yeah. And I never let her want it. Yeah. I still done. You understand what I'm saying?

But I don't think she has daddy issues. I think she has mom issues. It couldn't be mom. Yeah. And the reason— She's so ugly. And I'm gonna tell you this, and the reason I asked you to be out here alone, because what I was doing is I was taking notes. And so I was tracking to see if like you're the horrible mom, because I've had horrible moms. I'm serious. And so your language, you can admit and you know is bad.

Oh, I can cut deep.

Yes, and you know it. Your language is bad.

And I will cut deep.

'Cause I see two issues here and I'm gonna be very transparent with you. And the reason I wanna talk to you first is because I do see an issue from childhood and adulthood. I see an adulthood where you become exhausted and you've been giving and giving and the relationship to me seems transactional where now you feel like she's just asking you to do something and you do it and it's not really like she's like, she's concerned about you or what you need. Am I hitting that on the nail? Got it. I understand your point of view, but I also understand her point of view where there's an issue for her where it seemed like when you were younger, that same transactional relationship was there. Like mom was there, she would support me, but when I'm telling her what I'm feeling, she's not hearing me. And so what you're saying as an adult, she's also complaining about when she was a child. So you're saying as an adult, like you come to me with your kids, you saying this, you doing this. Give me a break. How often do you feel like she calls you just to say, "Hey mom, how you doing?" Never, never. No. And that bothers you?

Every time she call, it's like, when I answer the phone, it's like, "What, Ashley?" Yeah. "What you doing? Can you come take me to the grocery store?" Transaction. "Oh, I need to go get the kids some milk, juice, this." That makes sense.

And you're exhausted by it.

And I'm tired of that. And it's like you only uses me for what you want, man.

I get it. But so what I'm trying to help you to see here is that the same way right now you're asking for that as an adult, what she's trying to say is that that's what she felt like as a kid. So every time she bring in the past, what it's not is really about the past. It's not about, 'cause I'm hearing this, she started going to stories about peas and all this other stuff. So it's not really about these men, it's not really about these things because what she still needed was mom just to say, "I'm sorry this happened, I love you." I didn't have them emotions right then.

I had left everything I knew. Came to a whole nother state, had to start all over. I get it. So I didn't have that to give right then. I had to worry about my kids and me. I had to grow up because I was missing my mama. But I couldn't call my mama. I couldn't say, Mama, I need you. I had to stand on my feet.

And that's the same thing she's asking for.

Let me give you a hug.

Let me give you a hug. I know.

I know. I know. I just want her to be a strong girl and do what she gotta do.

But there is a piece of the similarity where what you needed in that love, she's just, that's all she's screaming out for as an adult. And so if you can just acknowledge that, I promise you this conversation in the past will be gone. You can tell me what words you wanna use 'cause I don't even wanna give you the words 'cause you know, what will you use?

I just tell her I love her and I'm sorry.

All right, can we bring her back up? And thank you for sharing that. Thank you too. Thank you for coming back. Your mother and I had a talk. Could you be open just to hearing what she has to say? Can we talk about some stuff? She wants to tell you something.

I apologize, I'm sorry, and I love you. I love you more.

All right, man.