Chris Zhuang On Peernovation In China

Welcome to Peer Innovation, the podcast with Leo Bottari and me, Randy Cantrell. Building on our previous shows, The Year of the Peer and What Anyone Can Do, we turn our attention to helping business leaders build high-performing teams. We'll talk with a diverse group of thought leaders who will share stories and insights that will help you and your teams achieve new heights. If you believe there is strength in numbers and that meeting the challenges of the future can only be achieved if we do it together, then join us for the conversation. Today's guest is Chris Zhuang. Chris is the founder and CEO of Rite On Tech Company Limited. That's R-I-T-E-O-N Tech. In his 20-year career, Chris has worked for government companies, private companies, international companies, and his own. He is a husband and father, been to many countries, worked in many countries, but today he joins us from his home base in Shanghai, China. We welcome Chris to the show.

Chris, welcome to the show. It is so terrific to have you on the Peer Innovation Podcast.

Thank you very much, Leo. So it's been a pleasure and always great to talk to you.

So tell, um, tell our audience where you are today.

So I'm in Shanghai. So yeah, to be more precise, I'm in Pudong District. So a little bit, yes, the center of my studio. So I'm all good.

Oh, that sounds great. Well, you know, for those of you who may not know, and we'll get into this a little later, but, um, Chris and I have been working together now for, you know, many, many months really to see that Peer Innovation, the book, uh, will be released in China and that the concept and the work, um, may actually find its way not only to peer groups but also to businesses as well. And we're really excited about that. And it's been such a pleasure, Chris, working with you for sure. Um, you know, it's, it's just been Great. But I think, you know, if we backed up a little bit before we get into Peer Innovation and its release in China and all that, I'd love to know how you got interested in peer advisory groups and what that looks like for you and why this has become something that you've invested in.

So that was from 2017. So that was from 2017, and I was invited to be the translator of a round of Vistage International Leadership Program in Shanghai. So, by— before that time, I had really zero idea about how peer advisory group works and what it is. I have zero idea. And from the first workshop, I came up to understand that this is a super powerful system that super professional people but not only because of their experience, but also because of their intention to learn and grow and to support each other. I think, wow, this is something that, that is really interesting, and I would like to go a little bit closer to that.

So what did you see, um, when you, when you started observing these peer groups? What was it about them that you noticed that you felt was so powerful for you?

Well, I see all of the participants, I can say that they had such powerful backgrounds and they're CEOs, they're business owners, not small business owners, just, yes, relatively bigger-sized company owners. But when they are in this workshop, they somehow behave like a group of teenager students. Really humble. And yes, we just sitting in that setting that you can feel that super strong energy of learning and supporting each other. And that is super powerful. And I can see, yes, so this is some system that can make things very different.

It is interesting, isn't it? When you see someone go from, you know, they show up at work every day and they're the top person in their company. Yet they sit around a group of other CEOs and that's not the position they play anymore. They're just one of many other CEOs who, as you know, I mentioned in the book, I found it fascinating that CEOs oftentimes will recognize that they're arguably one of the most important people in their company. They get their position and the leadership that they have there. Yet when they're in a group, they They don't always realize how much they matter, how much their contribution makes a difference for the others in the room. And I find that really fascinating.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So some of the, yeah, some of the participants, they just join and they just would like to, like we have this saying, just sitting on the riverbanks and have a little bit more look. So, but the point is, but the point is, Somehow you have to, yes, dive into the water to learn to swim. So this is one of our, yes, great leaders used to teach us. Yeah.

No, it's fascinating. I mean, I just think the, you know, and I think that, you know, we've chatted about this before too, that, you know, there are certain cultures that are regarded as more individualist versus more collective. In their orientation, with the US being a bit more individualistic in terms of that orientation, and yet there's much more collectivism, you know, in China. How does that factor into peer groups and their being effective? Like, in other words, are Chinese businessmen and women, for example, really open to being part of a peer group? And if so, what does that look like, and how do they engage with one another in a way that you think that your culture helps make that successful?

Yeah, I think that could be a little bit of the both sides. And generally speaking, our culture is a little bit more collectively, somehow collectively focused.

Yep.

And like yours, it's more individually focused. And the business owners and the CEOs at this moment in our country, they are Yes, they are quite more open-minded, we can say. It's just not like 40 or 50 years ago, because right now we see the possibility and diversity in this world and we're being a part of it. And so for them, they will be able to understand that being a part of a peer advisory group can help them to, to transform their own leadership so that is more internalized Transformation, but also when they just— we have this conversation. One, I still remember there is one session of the meeting and when the coach, yeah, they asked this question. So how many people are going to be affected by our meeting? So let's do some, yes, quick math on that. So the CEO started counting. So yes, me, myself, my direct relatives, spouse, kids, parents, and parents-in-law, and also their staff employees. Just put all the people together, just combine. Guess what? That's like a little bit more than 86,000 people affected just by this. Yeah, small group of the meeting. So this is a huge number. So when we have this awareness and based on our culture, we understand that, yes, so this is super powerful and this can help really change lives and improve the quality of the lives for many people.

You know, you make— bring up such a great point there. And part of this too is I know when I do the workshop with CEO peer groups, which is pretty much designed to help them maximize their experience, right? So they come and they meet once a month. And here you've got all these high-powered people coming together 8 hours, and this is 8 hours they will never get back, right? So it's a matter of, because of all that's at stake, because of all the people that are affected by this, coming there and really bringing your best and being at your best and being open and being willing to share and being willing to learn. And what can happen when someone from a completely different industry sector will ask you a question that you probably stopped asking yourself a long time ago because this is just how things work in our world. And all of a sudden you get a question that gets you thinking like, wow, you know, that's not how things work in our industry, but boy, it could. And maybe it could be a competitive differentiator for us and maybe it could be something that could really make a big difference. And there are, when you look at the peer groups, whether you're looking at the US, China, around the world, there are thousands and thousands of stories of moments during an 8-hour meeting like that where someone asked a question just like that and it triggered something that again affects all the people's lives that you're talking about that are in this meeting. So I find this whole thing rather extraordinary in that regard.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, sometimes when we just talk about the— yes, in your book we talked about the ladder of inference. Yes. Sorry. Yeah, inference. So that is the system that is very powerful, and I'll be inviting some of my friends and some of my learning partners, yes, to follow this system to sometimes— yes, we literally draw a ladder on the whiteboard to ask them to say yes. So this is how you start to think. This is how you start to observe everything around you. And on the top of the ladder, so either you just try to go a little bit further, which will just trip you off, or either you just climb down and find another ladder and change a different perspective. So see how that's going to work for you.

So yeah, and, and for those of you, um, or listeners who maybe— so in the book, um, I reference Chris Ardris's ladder of inference. And the ladder of inference is basically designed to help us understand and reflect on why it is we believe what we believe. Where does it come from? What does that look like? And how do these things reinforce one another? And with even the idea that what if we were able to climb a ladder of inference, because the idea, for example, is that, you know, Chris and I, for example, right, grew up in completely different cultures. We would walk into a room, for example, or we'd see any situation, and I'm likely to pick up on different data points than Chris is. Chris will start walking up the ladder, if you will, based on assumptions and conclusions based on the data points that are noticed by him. And the reason they're noticed by him is because of those beliefs that have been formed before. You know, for me, it looks at something else. So now all of a sudden, when we look at the exact same situation of a completely different impression of what happened and what it's all about, it becomes like, wow, how did you get that? And this is where rather than judging how people see things as right or wrong or different or whatever, it's like, how do we ask questions and truly get an understanding from one another about why someone sees it a certain way. And I talk about this idea of why don't we walk a little wider ladder of inference and we walk up that ladder together and we get a sense of learning, you know, from one another about how we see the world. And we may not come to agree on it at the end, but we sure as heck are gonna have a much better understanding about why the person sees the world as they do compared with how we may see it. And so I appreciate you bringing that up, Chris, 'cause I think that's a really, powerful element when it comes to whether it's peer groups, whether it's teams, whatever, right? People see things in different ways. We can either choose to call that person wrong, judge them, have negative feelings about how they see things, or we can ask questions and we can seek to understand, and we can start embracing this idea. And with the possibility, by the way, that we're likely to learn— that we're likely to learn something, and we're likely to go, wow, I never thought I never thought of it that way before. That is really cool. That is really interesting. Right. And this is what groups kind of do for one another.

Yeah, that's absolutely right. And so we have this saying, yes, in our proverbs. So there is a proverb in our culture. So a group of frogs, they're sitting on the bottom of the well, they start to stare in the sky. They say, okay, the sky is just like this much big, just like the size of the well. But there is this one teeny tiny frog said, okay, so I was trying to see if there— yes, out of the boundary What is that? The moment he's got that idea, he's no longer a part of those frogs. So same like the ladder of inferences, the moment that we start to think that there might be some other ladders waiting for us to explore, or just explore and observe, so there will be way more possibilities waiting for us.

That's fascinating.

Yes, we human beings, we are the creator of meaning-making, so we tend to make meanings all the time.

I also love just the whole— so as many as you want to introduce as we're talking about things, any proverbs, metaphors, or anything that you think are relevant here are always so fascinating because I think they paint a picture, right, of— oh yeah, kind of understanding, you know, all this. And whenever we can get a story like that, you know, it's rather extraordinary. And the assumptions and the things that people do. Um, I was telling a story to someone, uh, when I was growing up. You know, I'm, uh, here I'm like, I don't know, 9 or something like that. I'm in a classroom, okay? And this teacher talks about the fact that, you know, life is not possible on other planets because there's not enough oxygen in there for people to breathe or for life to breathe. So of course I raised my hand and I'm like, well, what about life that may breathe something else? Like maybe they breathe nitrogen, maybe they breathe whatever. Yeah. And I was I was absolutely— the teacher looked at me like I was the dumbest kid in the whole world, and the kids were laughing and everything. I'm like, whoa, now I realized that was a pretty good question, you know. But sometimes we're made to feel in a way that we don't put ideas out there, we don't ask those questions, because somewhere along the line, sometimes we might have been in a situation like I was that day where I kind of just put myself out there thinking I was asking a perfectly great question, and I was just like chopped down, you know, in that moment. And unfortunately, those things can keep us from being vulnerable in groups. And, and that, I think, is a question that I have for you in terms of, you know, we know, for example, in China, more collectivist culture than, um, in the U.S., um, but what are the differences, you think, with regard to vulnerability? You know, this idea of being in a meeting with your peers and not compromising whatever personal currency you have is your as the leader of your company, how easy or difficult is it, do you think? And granted, I realize we're painting this with a broad brush here from a cultural perspective, but how is sharing— is that a tough thing to get people to open up when you look at meetings that you're having in China, for example?

Well, yeah, culturally speaking, so It's very different just in terms of vulnerability. And we have this, we can say this quite general understanding that Eastern and Northern Asian people are more, we can say, internalized or just keep things with themselves or Yes, not able to speak up. Yes, trying to be more quiet. So these are the taglines. These are all the tags for our people. But I think that—

What is the root of that? Why is that?

Well, historically speaking, there can be many reasons for that because of the, I can say, the climate, because of the, yes, the history lines, because of the, yes, the kingdom's ups and downs. But I can understand that because of this huge density of population, sometimes being more quiet and focused with yourself, it could be a better practice. It could be a better practice. But still, vulnerability is something that we all need to face. Yes, one way or another. And how we're going to choose to face it is something that's going to affect the outcome after it. So in peer advisory groups, when business leaders and the CEOs, they're sitting together and they have this psychological safety, just as you mentioned in the book. So this is the foundation of everything. I know that I can trust the people over there. I know that everything I shared stays in the room, and I know that I will not share anything else outside the room either. So that is psychological safety. So that is so important. I think which psychological safety is the foundation for every relationship, or I say healthy relationships.

Exactly. You know, when you think about it, the example I brought up of asking the, the question that I did in class, that was not only something that affected me, but think about it, it affected every other student who might think to ask a question down the road and think, hey, I don't want to go through what Leo did last week, right? I mean, that was right. So they don't ask the question and they, and they stay quiet and they don't, um, they're not vulnerable, they don't be curious. And unfortunately, we get a little bit, you know, trained on this in a way that isn't necessarily very positive when we're younger sometimes. And, but I think when you think about your— when you think about peer groups, if you were starting a peer group right now in Shanghai and you had 8 to 10, 12 executives who've never been part of a peer group before, how would you get them to trust that psychological safety? How would you get them to feel that they could be open without penalty? In fact, not only without penalty, but with some reward for themselves and for others in the room.

Okay, so yeah, that's a great question. And I have this design for those people who've never been met before. And so it's a little bit combination of a ladder of inference and also another practice called the lifeline. So I'm sure that most of the readers, listeners, they know about the Lifeline Exercise. So it's just basically like a coordination system starting from day 1, the day we get born. And then we have the ups and downs. I just point out those ups and downs at the age and make a little bit note on that, what happened that day. So yeah, what do you have experienced that day? And just link them up with the curved lines. And with that observation, people will start to think about, yes, there might be something. Yes, there might be some cause and effect. There might be some kind of a good or bad trauma— sorry, karma inside that. Yeah. And After that, we'll just borrow that ladder of inference, ask them, yes, so what about, I would like to invite you to climb onto another ladder of inference. So see how's that going to happen. And normally I will start from my, my part of the story. So yeah, so in that way, people will feel like, yeah, so if this person can share his, so I surely can share mine.

Yes. So you model those behaviors so other people can follow that and they can all you know, do this. No, that's absolutely, you know, and it's a great way. And also, I think what helps people feel psychologically safe is the listening, right? The idea that everyone is locked in and paying attention and really, um, you know, not being distracted. They're not checking their cell phone or looking out the window when you're trying to tell a story about your life or something that's consequential for you, right? I mean, it becomes really important that the listeners, you know, and that they also feel know, let's face it, that there's some benefit to it. You know, people feel like, all right, if I'm going to put myself out there here, I want to feel like there's some benefit to myself and others in order to do that, for sure. So yeah, that's a really, you know, important part of it, I think, as well. Yeah. So with regard to— so I'm going to pivot a little bit here because I do want to talk about peer innovation and kind of what struck you about it, how you got interested in it. Obviously, I feel unbelievably grateful that you in particular were the one who translated this book.

Yes.

And even just, you know, fascinating about the title. Here's a made-up word, right? And how we translate that into Chinese, for example, and how we translate and transfer these ideas in a way that works. So I'd love to get a sense of what that was like for you in terms of the, that whole process.

Okay, so yeah, so at first I'm— I would like to say thank you, Leo, for trusting me to go along with all the translation and the publication of Pure Innovation in China. And so the Chinese name of Pure Innovation is called Tongdao Changli, and Tongdao itself in Chinese, that means people like me. People just like me, same mindsets, same backgrounds, not exactly same backgrounds but just similar backgrounds, so similar understanding of life and our purpose in the world. So that's what we call peer, Tong Dao. And Chang Li, in fact, it's a short version of the power of innovation, Chang Zhao Li. So we just put them together. So it's just like 4 Chinese characters just representing the power of pure innovation. So similar people gather together and to creating this magical thing with all innovation collectively. So that's how it comes out.

That's fascinating. I mean, it's really cool. So was there anything So when you think about the stories or the, um, or some of the concepts or anything, was, was there anything that you found particularly challenging in terms of trying to translate it in a way that was true to the intent of the content, or did you find it pretty seamless?

Oh, well, uh, we, we have this— we had this conversation, Leo, you and me, and a couple months back, and we talked about accountability. Yeah, so we talk about accountability and we talk about responsibility. Yes, I had this conversation 2 days ago with my ICF certification learning partners, and I shared this concept with them. So accountability, responsibility is so different, so, so different. But in Chinese, they're somehow like a liability legally or not legally bonded to some people. So it feels like the same, but I shared with them that they're not exactly the same. So yeah, responsibility, that comes from the word response, it comes from something that is reflecting, that is bouncing back, yes, from something or someone. But accountability is the person determined We can say the determiner, that word, just put something onto his shoulder. So we have this, we had this conversation, we literally put onto the shoulder and carry it all the way. Yeah. So I think this is part of the challenge I met during the translation. But yeah, of course we had some other translations. So just in case I made some mistakes during the process, just let me know.

Well, it's going to be hard for me to figure that out, actually. But yeah, to let our listeners know, we're not doing this podcast in Chinese, because I would be completely incompetent being able to do that. I am so grateful that Chris's English is so, you know, excellent. But anyway, so tell me a little bit. So here we've got the book. So I'd love to hear and let our listeners know just about— of course, you know, we got together, you were interested in the book, you're interested in translating it, we wanted to make it available, uh, in China. So then all of a sudden you can— I think it would be great to talk about the publisher and talk a little bit about any, any dates or when this will be released and in what forms it's going to be released in. Um, that would be great for, for people to hear.

Yeah, of course. So, uh, uh, I think starting from the end of last year, so when translation is about to finish and I start to reach out to publishers about the publication of this Peer Innovation Chinese version here in China. But yes, not only in China, but also in, yes, Greater China, Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan included. And so I reached out to publisher number 1, and they say, yeah, we are all piled up, some, yeah, some, some of the reasons. And number 2 is the same, got the same reason. So I got a little bit frustrated. And then a friend just introduced the Sun Yat-sen University Press, which is located in the capital city of Guangdong Province, Guangzhou.

Okay.

So I took a business trip to there, and this early January, and I set up a meeting with the person in charge of the publication in the press. So that day, I remember, was like— it was like a little bit less than 20 degrees, and it was quite sunny. It was quite sunny. It's not very normal in January because in Shanghai it's like freezing and windy, and— but in Guangzhou it feels like late spring, not early spring in Shanghai. So it feels like, well, I think this is January. Okay, so I'm happy with that. So I took this taxi to the gate of this Sun Yat-sen University Press. It's located in the university, south side of a very famous river of the, of the town. And I cleared myself because of the COVID situation, so I cleared myself with everything. And so wearing a mask, I stepped into the campus. Well, I, you can't believe it, Leo. The campus, it remind me, just remind me the Angkor Wat in Cambodia. It looks like so classical and so fascinating with this huge grass, yes, in the middle, in the center of the campus. And then I talked to the press, and after 20 minutes or 30 minutes, I said, yes, we reached agreement, then yes, we're gonna go for it. So just like we say, the great agreement never took a long time.

That's right.

Yeah.

Oh, that is so great. And, and so we're going to be looking at— it'll be, uh, should be released sometime in July, pretty much, right? Is that where we're looking at? July? It could go into August, but you probably think in July?

Yeah, we hope that will be done in July. And, uh, so now we have this ISBN code ready, and, uh, very soon we will have this, uh, cover design. Finished. And after that, everything will be transferred to the printing house. So it will be another like 1 or 2 weeks, so we'll have it, yes, ready to go.

Love it. Sounds great. And I can't tell you how, you know, exciting it is to be able to do that and to, you know, have the book released in China. And, and you being such the really major part of making that possible, and I appreciate that more than I can tell you. And, um, thank you.

Thank you so much.

Um, so where can, um, people learn more about— I mean, I know they can probably connect with you on LinkedIn. They can learn more about you and your company and all of that. So, oh yeah, how can they do— how can our listeners learn more about you and all of that?

Yeah, you can always reach out by LinkedIn, and my LinkedIn is my English name and the Chinese name. And my Chinese name is Zhang Liyang, and the English name is Chris Zhang, and you can always find me. And so I'm the founder and CEO of, uh, Ride On Tech Shanghai Limited. So this is the company we focused on the leadership transformation for the companies, for the teams, and also for the leaderships. So yeah, just feel free to reach out, and I'm in Shanghai, but I'm available anywhere.

Sounds great, Chris. Thank you so much for joining us in the show. Great conversation. I know our listeners really appreciate it, and, um, um, You know, again, just looking forward to, um, you know, the release of the book and, uh, to getting over there and spending some time with you as well at some point.

Yeah, um, thank you so very much, Leo. So it's been a pleasure and always an honor to talk and work with you. And in closing, I would like to share a little bit of my, my personal journey about peer innovation. So right after the— right after the translation of Pure Innovation, and I had this thinking that I need to write something like a preface, translator's preface, that is somehow, yes, legally requested for the book. Yes. So yeah, so I shared with myself that now we are already on the second decade of the 21st century, so we had this major challenge starting from last year, and we're still in VUCA time, and we don't know how this VUCA time is going to be. Maybe this is the VUCA time leading us to another level of less VUCA time, but we don't know. We don't know how long that's going to be. Really, what we can do at this moment is to lead from our heart. And always, good leaders are readers, and leaders put what they learn from the book into their life and into their work. So I see peer innovation, this Chinese version, a little bit like another kid of mine. So yeah, so that's a little bit emotional, but yes, that feels like— it feels like that. And I would like all of you to enjoy it. And thank you so all very much.

Well, I can't think of a better way to end the show than that. Thank you for everything, and we will, um, we'll see you soon. Thanks.

See you soon. Thank you.

Thank you for joining us. To subscribe to the podcast and learn more about how you can engage PeerNovation for your organization, contact us on the website at peerinnovation.co. Until next week, remember, the power of we begins with you.