Laura Kriska on WE Building

Welcome to Peer Innovation, the podcast with Leo Bottari and me, Randy Cantrell. Building on our previous shows, The Year of the Peer and What Anyone Can Do, we turn our attention to helping business leaders build high-performing teams. We'll talk with a diverse group of thought leaders who will share stories and insights that will help you and your teams achieve new heights. If you believe there is strength in numbers and that meeting the challenges of the future can only be achieved if we do it together, then join us for the conversation. Our guest today is Laura Kriska. Laura is an expert on cross-cultural relations with more than 30 years experience bridging gaps in diverse workplaces. She's the author of the new book, The Business of We: The Proven 3-Step Process for Closing the Gap Between Us and Them in Your Workplace. We welcome Laura to the show.

Laura Kriska, welcome to the show. We're so happy to have you here. On the Peer Innovation Podcast.

Thank you so much, Leo. I'm so glad to be here.

Well, you've got this terrific new book out that I'm so excited about. I've almost finished it, as I mentioned, and really loving it. Actually, it's one of the first books that I've listened to through Audible, and it's kind of a new discovery for me in many respects because, you know, I've always enjoyed that, you know, physical book, and yet at the same time while traveling ebooks were always amazing because I didn't have all the weight of having to carry 2 or 3 books with me if I wanted to toggle between. But now of course here we are, conversely we're at home and I may get on the Peloton or I may go for a walk or a run, and to be able to kind of multitask in that way, exercise the mind and the body hopefully at the same time, has been great. So I've really enjoyed your book. The book of course is The Business of We. The Proven 3-Step Process for Closing the Gap Between Us and Them in the Workplace. And when we think about the theme of this show and really looking at high-performing teams, I just can't think of a more relevant guest to have on to talk about your work. But before we get into the book, I'd just love to get a sense for people, our audience, to get a sense of your background and how you came to write this book.

Well, I'll start by saying, "Jitsu wa Nihon ni umaremashita oyawa senkyoushi deshita kara desu," which is, "I was born in Japan." My parents were missionaries there, so although I grew up in the Midwest, I started off in a place far from Columbus, Ohio, which is where I grew up, and that really started my life in a way that led to where I am today. Having that kind of international aspect to a very Midwestern life, it helped me really be interested in places that were different and people who were different. And that's really been the basis of my work of how to bridge, how to build connection with people who just grew up differently than you did, or who look different or pray different or sound different.

You know, one of the things that you wouldn't know about me is that growing up, back in the day when you had pen pals, I had a pen pal from Japan for 5 years, and he was from Yamanashi. And so the exchange of letters was rather amazing. And of course, back then, you would literally send a letter and 2 weeks later, I might get something back, right? Just because even when you were writing, you know, as soon as you got it and you'd get it right in the mail and you'd get it out again, but it would take that. And as we're sitting here thinking about what's just happened in terms of landing on Mars, which is absolutely amazing, right? It reminds me of when I had my pen pal in Japan, and the newspaper photography, by the way, was far better than anything we'd see in the US because, you know, we'd have all these kind of muddied photos of Neil Armstrong, you know, on the moon. And the fact that he would send me the color photographs that were appearing in the newspapers in Japan was so extraordinary and it was just so great. And of course, it was funny where you started off talking in Japanese because he would try to teach the language and I would get all these vocabulary words and I would learn all of these things. Of course, you know, I'm sure pronunciation was rather butchered, but it was just a lot of fun and a great experience as a kid to engage with someone in another part of the world who grew up with completely different completely different circumstances than I did growing up in Quincy, just outside of Boston. And so it was a, it was a nice introduction to all of that. But, you know, for you, it became more than that. So you really use that as, as a launch for your career and your work. So tell us about like that first job and those first things were you know, you just got into that field, if you will.

So because of my interest in Japan, I went to a college that had an exchange program. I spent my junior year abroad in Tokyo, and then I got my very first job working for Honda Motor Company in Tokyo. I was the first American woman to work in their Tokyo headquarters, and I was 22. I was so excited to be there, but I was also clueless. I had this false notion that because I had spent one year in this other country, because I was somewhat familiar with the language, that I knew everything. I think a lot of 22-year-olds anywhere have that attitude.

Sure.

So I brought that all-knowing, full-of-myself attitude with me to Japan, and I had a culture clash which had to do partly with the country difference, but it also had to do with the culture difference of being a young student and growing up. I mean, we all experience those, um, that, that culture difference when you realize, oh, I have to show up to this job every day. Oh, there are people here that I don't really get along with, or, or whatever it is. And so I was experiencing that kind of all together. But that ex— being the only American woman working with thousands of Japanese colleagues was a kind of Excuse me. I'll say that again.

It's all good.

I apologize for that.

Not at all.

So being the only American woman working with thousands of Japanese colleagues was a radical experience in having to learn other ways of doing things. And I very quickly realized that even though things were different, It didn't mean bad. I think there is a notion sometimes that when people sound different, look different, you know, grow up differently, that when they do something that is not the same as we are accustomed to, there's an immediate assessment that that's bad. Sometimes it might not be the most effective way to do something, but lots of times it's just our, our unfamiliarity, our fear of something new that triggers this anxiety, and that if you spend time and you you look at things objectively and you are honest, you can see, oh, this is just different and it actually is better. And I like this way of doing something. It's not what I'm used to. I'll give you a really simple example is the way people take off their shoes in Japan, you know, as a matter of course. You know, when I— sorry about that, I think I need some more tea. When I grew up in the United States, we did not take our shoes off when we walked into the house. I don't know about in Quincy.

No, other than maybe in the dead of winter because you didn't want to track snow through somebody's house.

Right, and so, you know, when I went to Japan, you know, virtually everybody takes their shoes off when they walk into the house. This is a good practice. I love this practice. We do it in my home here in Brooklyn, and, and that's just a, you know, an inconsequential example. But we can see how doing things differently feels, feels wrong sometimes. But if we just step back and look at these things objectively. Sometimes we like the ways that other people do things, and we actually can decide to start those patterns ourselves.

You know what, though, one of my— the stories that I really enjoyed from the book, because it's not only, yes, they did things differently, but you also kind of discovered that that difference wasn't even something that that population enjoyed. And what I'm talking about is the women who are wearing the uniforms. And I love this story because you were able to dig in and actually discover something that you really weren't aware of, and then actually led a movement that inspired real change. Please tell our listeners that story because I just love it, because I just think there's so many layers to it that are just really wonderful when you think about the business of we versus us and them. 'Cause the gender piece in that case was really rather profound.

It's one of my favorite stories as well. Thank you for bringing it up because it's an example of where I was a we builder before I knew what to call it. So the story is I show up in Tokyo the first day. I'm 22. Again, I think I know everything. I'm wearing this beautiful cream-colored wool suit that I had purchased with one of my friends First paychecks, Liz Claiborne. I still remember it. I had a matching briefcase, beige briefcase, you know, completely empty briefcase because—

There you go.

Again, I don't know what I'm doing, but I looked the part. I was so proud of how I looked. And I walk into the headquarters of Tokyo, Honda Motor Company's Tokyo headquarters. And before lunch, I'm taken to a small locker room and two women are sizing me up and they hand me two blue polyester uniforms, a kind of skirt and vest, very much like a Girl Scout uniform. And they say, "Here, this is for you." And it's clear, you know, every woman in the headquarters is wearing this out-of-date, ugly blue polyester uniform. And I'm aware that I have to make a choice and I choose to go along with the rule. And I do that because I am the guest. I'm the one who chose to go to Japan. I should be the one adjusting more. I didn't like it, but I did it. And then I wear it. There's a lot of stuff going on and I'm working with 10 Japanese women. We are supporting the senior directors. And in that group of women, there are 2 in particular who become friends. And we really build trust with one another. This is something I talk a lot about in the book of moving beyond acquaintance-level relationships and really building trusting relationships. And I did this with these particular women. We had lunch together, we went out on weekends together, we traveled together. So these were real friendships, people I'm still in touch with today. And probably several months into our friendship, I think we were having lunch, and during the conversation, I said something about the uniforms, and I realized, that they didn't like the uniforms, and I was shocked. And this was a piece of invisible information. I talk a lot about this in the book. There's visible information and invisible information about people, about cultures, and that without the invisible information, you really don't know very deeply about another person or culture. And that if you want to build trust, you have to gather both visible and invisible information. So here's this piece of invisible information, which is they don't like the uniforms, and I'm shocked and I'm excited because I think, well, if they don't like the uniforms and I don't like the uniforms, maybe there's something we can do about it. So then the company issues an annual invitation to employees to make proposals of how to improve the company organization in terms of safety, finances, whatever you want. And so I think, here's my chance. This is the company mechanism of change. And so I decide to start a group to abolish women's uniforms. And I start recruiting people. I recruit a couple of foreign men who are working in the company, several women, Japanese women, and we start researching it. Just like any other initiative, we make a proposal. The company says, hmm, that's a good idea, but we're gonna study this. And they study it for almost 2 years.

Wow.

In the end, this took a really long, much longer than I ever imagined. I had kind of given up on it, but in the end, the company decided to make women's uniforms optional. And, you know, they didn't take our suggestion directly, but they had studied it. They decided to make it optional. And sure enough, women chose not to wear their uniforms. These are professional women, and they, chose to wear professional clothing to reflect the level of responsibility and professionalism that they have. And this policy has been in effect for over 30 years now, impacting thousands of women and their colleagues. And, and one of the really important points of this story is that I did not do this on my own at all. It absolutely was done in conjunction across many types of differences— language, culture, ethnicity, all kinds of things— that led to the change that continues today.

Well, it's hard to imagine something that is more us than them, us and them, than having women to have to wear uniforms that so clearly distinguish. And in my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong too, because it wasn't just the uniform It was also the roles that women were playing. You talked about things from everything from cleaning ashtrays to doing things that weren't exactly senior-level, you know, executive roles there. Now, was that entirely true in terms of across the company that women did not enjoy senior-level positions there, or what was that like back at that time?

Now, this is a long time ago. So yes, 30 years ago, there were very, very few women in senior roles. That has changed, not only at Honda, but among Japanese companies. I have seen this myself. I do a lot of in-person training with Japanese companies outside of Japan. And I'd say probably 15 years ago, these groups were only men. And about 15 years ago, it started to change. And so women are not only being hired and promoted internally in Japan, they're being sent outside of Japan to these very important roles in leadership outside the country, and then kind of being groomed for leadership inside the country. An interesting point or example of this is that I worked for a senior managing director in Honda Motor Company, and he has a daughter who is about my age, and she now is the president of a Japanese company. So I'm saying this because in this generation, from the time, you know, somebody who was my boss for the time that his child now is the age and experience of somebody who could be a boss, actually is a boss. Now, it's still not as— the representation is not like in the United States. We saw examples of this recently with the head of the Tokyo Olympics making this ridiculous remark. I don't know if you followed this in the news as I did, but something about women speaking too much at meetings. I mean, it was the kind of comment that would lead to an immediate resignation in America. I don't know of any professional man who would say that in American news media. And this happened a couple weeks ago. Now, he did just finally resign, but it took a couple weeks for this to occur.

Well, I mean, from my perspective, when you think about what you all did together regarding taking those uniforms, I'm not sure that that didn't have a pretty profound impact on women's ability to rise in the organization and do be and be part of a we versus the other, you know. So I just think, and it's why I found the story so wonderful, and I'm glad you were able to share it with our listeners too. So when you talk about these, this kind of 3-step process, Because we-building obviously is just huge. And it's not only something that, as we've talked about prior to the show, is just being across cultures and all of that, but it can happen for companies where everyone lives in the same town. I mean, you know, there is very much that. So when you talk about the 3-step process for we-building and kind of avoiding this us and them in the workplace, tell us what those 3 steps are.

The 3 steps are really quite simple. It's not rocket science, as they say.

And I want to be clear that while these are simple steps, they're not easy to do.

They take time and effort.

They never are.

They never are. The first step is to foster awareness of cultural differences, and that simply means that you see culture differences happening everywhere all the time, that it's not just when you get on a plane and go to work in Japan. Culture differences, as you just referred to, Leo, are right here in our own communities, our own organizations, because culture differences occur based on any aspect of a person's identity. And we have many aspects of our identity, and they're constantly changing, and they Some aspects of our identity are very important for one person, and for another person, it's another aspect of their identity.

So we—

having an awareness that the— all of these factors are in the mix is the first step. I usually ask people for examples of culture gaps, and they give me international examples. You know, I went to Italy and it took me 5 hours to eat lunch. You know, they've never brought the check back or something like that. And those are fine examples.

But I really try to encourage people to have a broad attitude toward culture differences. And also to see that these culture gaps fall into 3 categories, which is inconsequential, consequential, and game-changing. You know, when you're in Italy and the check takes a long time to arrive, it's not the biggest problem in the world. But when we're getting into issues of building trust with colleagues, with mis— for example, if you're working with colleagues and you aren't treating them well because of this perceived difference, then that can be game-changing. So that's the first step. The second step has to do with looking inward. And doing something I call the self-assessment. There is an Us Versus Them self-assessment. These are 10 simple questions that anybody can look at anytime. This self-assessment is free and available on my website for anyone who wants to download it, and these questions are yes and no questions, and they ask you a series of questions to see how much you know and have integrated with a specific cultural group. And you can determine the cultural group any way you want. It could be a single person or it could be an entire country, and the idea is simply that the more face-to-face interaction you engage in, the higher your score will be, the more information you will be able to attain. It doesn't mean you have to like or agree with this other culture, but you learn about the other culture, and that data helps you avoid causing damage, especially unintentional damage, and then actually helps you get better results. If I go back to this kind of silly example of taking your shoes off, you know, if you know that this is a pattern in Japanese homes and you're about to go into a home in Japan, rather than just tromping through their house with your shoes on, you would know to take your shoes off, or you would know, oh, I should bring another pair of shoes if I really don't want to be in my stocking feet. You know, I'll bring a pair of indoor shoes or slippers or something like that. So helping— let me see— gathering cultural data, I think, is critical in the 21st century.

No question. You know, when I think about these first two steps, it also reminds me, I think, a simple example that people could relate to is is there are some cultures, of course, who have a little, let's say, more casual relationship with time than others, right? So a classic example where what you're talking about keeps us from making kind of assumptions based on our norms and our culture, that if someone's 5 minutes late to a meeting, that somehow I'm being disrespected in some way or something like that, when that has nothing to do with anything, if you recognize, you know, things like that, that I think What you're talking about here really creates that level of not only understanding and really learning and listening for understanding and having that inquiry, but also reflecting on our own assumptions and our own behaviors in that regard. So I appreciate that.

Absolutely. And this idea that there is a right way to behave is quite dangerous when you're working with a wide range of people. Now, I'm not against people being, um, on time for specific things. And there are different ways to achieve that. I remember working with a woman, this was in Calgary, and she had, in her family, she had come from Ecuador. And she said herself, you know, our idea of time is a little more flexible. And she was married to a Canadian and there was a little more timeliness. And she said when they would have family events, it would make her crazy because different parts of the family wouldn't show up to the event at the time that she wanted them to. So she started to send out invitations with different times on them. And so if the party started at 5 o'clock, she'd tell her Ecuadorian family, you know, the party starts at 4, so that they would show up around 5.

And she—

you know, I thought that was kind of cross-culturally excellent behavior. She didn't get mad. She used her cultural data to get the results that she wanted.

Exactly. That's awesome. So we're going to foster awareness, we're going to look inward. What's the third?

The third is taking action. You know, there's so much rhetoric, people saying, "Hey, let's have unity." I noticed this particularly, you know, as of last spring after George Floyd was murdered. Black Lives Matter protests have been supported with words and hashtags. I see signs in people's windows, which is Which is great, I like to see that, but it's action that's going to make a difference. If you're not backing up your words and your hashtags and your signs in your window with real action, proximity is not going to make a difference. So action takes place in 3 categories: safe, challenging, and radical. Safe actions are ones that involve zero vulnerability. They're risk-free. You can do them in the privacy of your home. They're perfect for now while many of us are still working from home. And they're actions like, you know, reading a book, listening to a podcast, researching, just educating yourself about this other cultural group that is relevant to your life. Challenging actions are things that require face-to-face interaction. And this can even be virtual. Virtual face-to-face interactions can be a good starting point, but it really means putting yourself in a situation that you don't know the outcome, you don't know how it's going to be. And then radical actions are things where you really immerse yourself, where you are the minority. You purposely deliberately place yourself in a situation on an ongoing basis where you are the minority. And because it might be uncomfortable, it might be very risky in some ways, but you are going to learn information that otherwise would have taken you a long time to learn or you wouldn't have learned it.

So one of the we-building activities that you brought up in the book that I really loved, because I imagine this, this is a game that you facilitated many times from the '70s. I don't have the name of it off the top of my head, and I know you'll share that with us, but I imagine these people getting together is typical of these things, right? Where they're explained what's going on and you You get people in varying levels of— some people think, oh, this is stupid. Why are we doing this or whatever to other folks, right? Then they do it. And I just so loved— to kind of give away the end a little bit, but when they do it successfully, it's like this stupid— this game they thought was so stupid a few hours earlier, it's like they just won the Super Bowl when they get to do this, right? And what an amazing we-building activity that was. So if you wouldn't mind, because I want and make sure that we have some time to talk about where people can learn more about you. But if you could kind of briefly share with us what that activity is about, I just thought it was a fun story.

It was great stuff.

Yeah, thank you. It is a great simulation exercise. It was developed by a professor, Pete Deal, and it was really developed for cross-functional teams. And it's called the Team Machine. Run it, uh, I don't know how many times. I've done it on 4 continents with thousands of people in all kinds of industries, everything from people working in nursing care facilities, uh, to engineers, uh, to bankers. It doesn't matter what the profession.

What matters is that you have a team of people who need to work well together, and The game really shows us how territorial people can be. And if you're so territorial that you are not communicating with your other departments, if you have such an idea that my department is best, I mean, Leo, you must see this all the time. You know, the money-earning departments feel like they're so much more important than the departments that don't generate income. When in reality, you need every, component. You need every aspect of the, the organization to be working in cooperation. This doesn't mean you have to like each other, you don't have to be friends, but you have to have this level of cooperation. And it is shocking to me to see how kind of committed people are to their own small area without a broader vision. In this simple Two Hour Game helps people see what is so obvious to outsiders like you and me, that without this interdepartmental, interidentity interaction and effective communication, building relationships, teamwork, your, your whole organization cannot operate as efficiently as it should be.

All right.

So, um, before we get to talking more about you and where people can learn more about your work, I really would love for you to talk about that great book party that you had. I loved it. It was so much fun. You know, I was, I was actually out and I was on the whole thing on my phone, actually.

Yeah.

And, uh, and it really came, you know, I mean, it translated beautifully on a mobile device. Actually, it worked really, really well. But yeah, tell us a little bit about the party and, and and what you thought about how that went, you know, for you and all too.

Well, you know, I spent a lot of time thinking about this book. I had the idea for the book 10 years ago. I spent 2 years writing it, and it was published during a global pandemic. It's not the best time to be, you know, launching a book, and I was feeling a little sorry for myself that I couldn't celebrate this. And then I heard from another author that she had held a virtual book party, and I was like, What's that? And I worked with this great coordinator, Sheena Majet, who organizes these kinds of events online. And I realized that it was in some ways much better to have a virtual party. So I could invite people literally from around the world. We had people from Jakarta, from Tokyo.

That's what made it better, right? In your case, especially with the book that you have now, you can give this global audience. And that was just fantastic.

Yeah, yeah, so it was a lot of fun, and it actually turned out to be a kind of we-building experience in and of itself. And I've been helping clients do we-building events, meetings, you know, not just a virtual Zoom, but it's so important to create shared experiences anytime. The team machine simulation exercise is a shared experience. But by utilizing technology, organizations can create really engaging, fun, we-building experiences, even for just an hour. Now, it takes time to set it up, to plan, but you can do it using the resources you already have. You don't have to spend a lot of money on external resources. Having leaders share stories. You know, in the book party, I shared stories of being an office lady. Now, I had the added benefit of having my famous friend Jenna Fischer join, and she shared stories, and we shared photos of our early days of being, you know, office ladies and secretaries and relating it to the idea of us versus them dynamics. But Anybody can do this, and I really encourage leaders to think about ways of doing that right now.

And I also like the way that you incorporated asking questions, not only the opportunity for people to ask questions in advance, but during in the chat, and it made people feel involved and engaged, not just something where they had to be a spectator. They were real participants, and I thought that was a great part of what you were able to do that, that day. It was fun.

Thank you. I want to say one other tool in case people aren't familiar with it, we used in the party is called Mentimeter.

Love that.

Isn't that amazing?

I love it. I've used it many times and it's fantastic.

Yeah.

So go ahead, but you can feel free to plug them a little bit.

Yeah. I think it's a great tool to engage people for business purposes. But also just for fun. We've used— I've done a couple Zoom birthday parties, and it is— it, again, you can do Menti, you can do Menti for free. You can create your own narratives and photos from your scrapbooks or from your phone, and you can create a very engaging experience for people without any, like, literally zero cost.

Yeah, I not only do I enjoy the polling feature on it, but one of my favorites, just because it's so visually interesting and depending on the question you're asking, is using the word cloud. Like when you talk about like this team, one word that you think best describes this team, and you'll have all of these cool words come up and it really paints a picture of the personality of, you know, in the perception that people have about who they are and how they are together. And that's a lot of fun. So yes, Mentimeter, you know, if people haven't used it, it's wonderful.

A wonderful tool.

So, and like I said, in a great way to engage everyone in the audience. But what I'd love for people to know too is how do they learn more about you? How can they work with you? Where can they find your book? You know, all of that.

Well, the book can be found on Amazon or any retailer online. Really, the best place to contact me and learn about my work is on LinkedIn.

I'm, I have events and I let people know about them on LinkedIn, but also I have a website. It's my name, Laura Kriska, laurakriska.com. And my work is growing because of the virtual nature of things. I'm able to interact and work with people all over the world. I did a training session on Monday, Monday or Tuesday, and it was It was a 3-hour session and we had people from Japan, Peru, Puerto Rico, the United States, all on one call for 3 hours. And it was a great way to be able to share the We Building message. We Building, being a We Builder is something I'm trying to encourage people to do. Obviously leaders need to be We Builders, but a kid writing a pen pal letter to Japan, that is We Building. And we-building can take place, you know, one person can do a we-building activity or action, or it can be a whole organization fostering a we-building initiative, or I call it a we-building campaign, which is a series of activities over the course of a period of time, which can again be done virtually. I think there's a lot of opportunity, even while we're working from home, to foster we-building now so that when we're back in person, we're just starting from a higher point.

It's interesting.

I would even suggest that the we-building— to me, one of the great ironies is that we had to move from a central workplace back into our homes to actually create a more we environment. And what I mean by that is when we go to work and we see each other as coworkers, we see each other for your title and your role, and you kind of work together in that regard. Now, all of a sudden, everyone was at home and people are— there's kids in the background, there's a dog jumping on someone's lap, there's artifacts in the background that give you a window into their life. People are beginning meetings not with, "What are you doing?" but, "How are you doing?" And you get this now. I feel that people are tapping into this shared humanity that they enjoy and really recognizing each other as fellow human beings, not just fellow employees. And because of that, it's actually created an environment where people tend to be a little more cooperative and a little more collaborative with one another. And even I'd argue forgiving when people are dealing with certain challenges, whether it's homeschooling kids or worried about elderly parents, whatever it may happen to be. And so, in many respects, this has fostered we-building for a lot of companies and I think brought people together in a rather powerful way. So, again, I just thank you for your book. I'm going to enjoy finishing it and I'm sure going through it again and learning from you and learning from your work. And just want to thank you so much for being on the show today.

Thank you so much. I just want to say that I want to start a We Building revolution, and I can't do it by myself. I'm so glad to have your help, Leo and Randy, and your listeners. And I'm really counting on all of you to spread the word about We Building. Thanks so much.

Thank you.

Thank you for joining us. To subscribe to the podcast and learn more about how you can engage peer innovation for your organization, contact us on the website at peerinnovation.co. Until next week, remember, the power of we begins with you.

You.