Leo & Randy On Books (writing and publishing)

Welcome to Peer Innovation, the podcast with Leo Bottari and me, Randy Cantrell. Building on our previous shows, The Year of the Peer and What Anyone Can Do, we turn our attention to helping business leaders build high-performing teams. We'll talk with a diverse group of thought leaders who will share stories and insights that will help you and your teams achieve new heights. If you believe there is strength in numbers and that meeting the challenges of the future can only be achieved if we do it together, then join us for the conversation. Another episode of Peer Innovation, the podcast. Peerinnovation.co is the website. He is Leo Bottari. My name is Randy Cantrell. And today, we're going to kind of revisit— you'd written a piece in CEO World about accountability, and I know you've gotten some feedback and some input about it. And then we'll kind of morph into having you update us a little bit about the book.

Yeah, I added a new piece of to it recently, as a matter of fact, where I got a CEO offered a kind of interesting thought. He said that the— that this whole pandemic has removed the B players from people's organizations. And he said it's because they've either proven to be A players or they have proven to be C players, essentially. And because of that, it's helped people kind of figure out who we move forward with and what we do and all that. Which for me, as we've been talking about accountability lately, excuse me, with regard to teams, it makes me think, well, okay, how do we take this A-team who has just proven themselves, you know, in a pretty remarkable way, not only in delivering for the company and being more productive, but doing so in the face of their own personal challenges. Now all of a sudden, you know, as CEOs begin to get more antsy about the fact that more and more time you know, has gone by without being able to see people come into an office, about the dangers of imposing other accountability measures, new things that not only take people away from being productive at what they're doing, but also, you know, implicitly maybe suggesting that maybe we don't trust you as much as last month for whatever reason, you know. So, so anyway, it was kind of an interesting you know, thing there. And I think the response I've gotten to the concept overall is people really do like the idea of trying to look at an accountability model, whether it's virtual or in person, that isn't about me on one side of the table, you on the other side of the table, and making you play defense about what happened. You, you know, that I'm— because I'm kind of apart from the team, I sit in judgment about what you have been able to do or not versus feeling like we are in this, you know, together and we can move forward and that we accept, I think, real personal responsibilities for being our A-game and being professionals and, you know, winning and losing together. So I think they're— based on certainly some online stuff and calls and emails and things that I've received from folks, They're kind of intrigued by the idea of trying that in their organization because they feel that the whole having their employees feel like they're playing defense isn't good for them or anyone for that matter.

So are you finding CEOs and leaders battling a bit of maybe their own paranoia as this thing continues to kind of drag out? That people might not be holding up their end of the bargain, for lack of a better phrase?

Well, I think it's just this feeling that this has gone on so long that they really start feeling some sense of like losing control.

Yeah.

Which, you know, A, as if they ever had control to begin with. But B, you know, there's just something that was more comforting about everyone shows up, they're at the same place, we see everyone do their work. We don't know what they're doing really, but at least we see that kind of going on where the idea that someone home at any given moment, they could decide to go take their dog for a walk or they could do something like that. It just gets under people's skin. It's like, okay, what are we doing? Why aren't we being productive? And yet they forget, they sit and probably have lunch for 20 minutes right at their house. They don't have a commute of an hour each way to work. They likely aren't spending an hour, you know, getting ready for the Zoom call in the morning in the same way they might if they were going to the office. I mean, so the day is expanding for a lot of these folks. And as we've talked about many times, to avoid the burnout that can happen, people need to get up and walk around during the day, and they need to kind of, you know, re-energize a bit. You can't be sitting on these Zoom calls forever. You know, when I do the workshops I do now, I go for about 50 minutes and we take a 10-minute break. I'll go another 50 minutes and take a good 10-minute break. You've got to get up and around. And they have to be as interactive as possible because if they're not, then it's just people passively sitting. One of the things that I do notice that can be tricky is a lot of people at home, even at home today, you know, have 2, 3 monitors. So they're on the Zoom call, but they're doing like 5 other things at the same time. And that becomes a bit of a distraction, let's say, not only for that person, but for others as well when it's clear that they're not always paying attention. So I think if you can lock in and do it for, you know, shorter periods of time and not feel like you've got to sit there for 3-hour session of anything without taking a breather.

Are you finding— I've got some clients in the last couple of weeks, kind of the— I don't know if— and I absolutely could be guilty of kind of leading the conversation. I'm not intentionally doing it, but subconsciously, I guess I could be having these recurring conversations where, because of all the virtual work, I've seen a growing antsy-ness of leaders, business leaders, in the how, particularly as it relates to people. I was having a conversation with the CEO and was somewhat concerned about some managers and how they were going about managing their teams virtually. And we talked about the output. Well, the output's fine. The work product is fine. No problem with that. I'm just got this kind of eerie feeling that maybe there is, you know, one, as one, as one put it, I want to make sure that there's not some low-level tyranny happening, you know, to get that work product. Are you in, are you encountering any of that? Leaders that are concerned now because of the virtual work. How that work product's getting done as it relates to people.

Yeah, not just how the work product's getting done, but also what are we leaving on the table? Could we be doing more? I have no idea because I can't see kind of what's going on here. I don't know if we are truly maximizing our, you know, collective potential here or not. So, you know, but then again, that comes down to, you know, right people, the commitment they have, what they do, their commitment to one another as a team, what that looks like. It's not about committed to the leader or trying to hit a number. You know, we had this talk before about a company I worked with and they were trying to go from half a billion to a billion dollars, for example. And, you know, of course you got the CEO and the CFO all fired up about, yeah, let's go be a billion-dollar company. Everyone else is like, why? What are we doing that for? No, really, you know, and they're wondering, and it wasn't just what's in it for me, because they clearly know that it's not like their pay is going to double, you know, in their minds, or that, you know, or they have a stake in the outcome in quite that way, but they were much more about just wanting to know the why. So I think working with that leadership team to kind of reframe Look, you know, people are here because they love what you do. They're proud of what they create. Imagine being a larger company that gives you now the reach to be able to put that in more people's hands so that their lives can be better because of what you do and what you all create together. Now, okay, I can buy into that. That, that, that gets me excited to think that you, we can take a product that we sell here. And, and do it and make it available to a lot more people and being proud of what we do and how great it is, then yeah, that gets me more excited than hitting some numbers that may or may not have much to do with them.

So, well, sad to say, your Boston Bruins, they got sent home early, but my Dallas Stars are in the Stanley Cup Finals. We'll see how that goes. And I only bring, I only bring that up, well, to brag a little bit. But also, what are you seeing as far as peers in the group? And I realize we both subscribe to the, the leader is part of the group, but coworkers. And I'm thinking of here lately in Dallas, of course, there's been, you know, a ton of congratulations, and a number of these players have been interviewed on the radio and These are guys who've been basically sequestered in that bubble up in Edmonton for over 6 weeks now, separated from their families, including coaches, including game officials and, and the like. And you can just hear it. They, they all say it and it's, you get the sense that it's not just some trite cliché. They, they are really there because they all understand that everybody's making a big, big sacrifice personally. To even do— try to do this thing. And unlike other sports, these guys are not paid extra money for the privilege as professional athletes, so they literally are doing it for the ring and for the cup, but for one another. Are you seeing— what kind of a disconnect are you seeing when it comes to that accountability that, well, like you and I have for this podcast? I mean, I feel I feel accountable for my own work, but I do feel somewhat accountable to you as well. Both of our names are attached to this. So in that same kind of thing, what's your sense of it with all this remote working going on?

Well, first I want to address the fact that all my peers are focused on basketball right now because the Celtics are in the Eastern Conference Finals, although they did lose game 1. But so we got some work to do. I didn't bring that up because the Mavericks got eliminated, so they're out. Yeah, no, I think the idea of playing for one another is huge. It is very much what we've talked about all along, the idea that now that employees are inviting one another into their homes, there's a much deeper connection, much more of a tapping into their shared humanity, and much more about how can we be helpful to one another do everything that we need to do right now to meet all of the challenges in front of us, whether they're professional, personal, you know, how do we do that for one another? So I think they're playing for one another in very much that way. And, you know, I think that's, that's a really good thing. And that's been one of the positive outcomes. When I'm looking at peer groups that are actually launching during this period of COVID peers they've never met, in person, by the way. And these are meant to be in-person peer groups, of course. It's not that they're just virtual groups. And I think the leaders of these groups, and I think the members themselves, have been very surprised, although they're very excited— excuse me— about the prospect of getting together in person. But I think in large part that's because they have built up such great relationships so quickly, even online. And in large part, that's had to do with, first of all, they're all going through this same storm as we've talked about together, right? They're meeting less frequently, more often in a way that is helpful to them, be really relevant. They're just all in for each other as far as helping each other kind of get through all this. And I think that has brought many of these new groups closer together much faster than would have ever happened in normal circumstances when they're meeting once a month during kind of normal times. And, you know, it just has. And for people who say, you know, who are in these groups who kind of have in their mind how these are supposed to run in this formal, you know, we're supposed to have this process and that process. And I'm like, forget that. And not forget it, but Yeah. Yes. Has, have you, have things suffered in that regard? Certainly. However, has it been more than made up for the fact that you've now got these people who have a connection to one another and have gotten to know one? I mean, that is priceless. That would take you a long time. This process stuff they're talking about is simple. That's easy to fix. You know, it really takes, they've been on the accelerated relationship program here with a lot of these groups starting. During this. And I think it's helped team members, for employees at the same time, employees of different organizational teams kind of come together and see one another in a different light as well. And it's been really, really positive.

Good. Update us on the book. And I may have a question or two about even writing a book since I'm one of the countless millions of people among the number and listening to our podcast who've not written a book, but maybe you're thinking about it. So Leo might be able to help us.

Well, and, and, you know, part of why I wanted to chat about this a little bit today too, is that, um, someone, um, you know, a good friend of mine recently is, and I didn't even realize they were working on a manuscript and they are a good bit of the way through it. And they're trying to figure out, okay, what's next? What are my options here? How do I go about either getting something published in the traditional way or their hybrid formats or what's involved in self-publishing. Um, so there's certain bits that I know about it, but you know, a guy whose books that I've always loved in terms of just the way they look at this, that it's been beautifully rich, wonderful books is Larry Robertson, you know, and I know you are, you know, keep in touch with Larry quite a bit as well. Um, Larry's books are Magnificent. He told me that the first book he worked with a small publisher. The next few that he did were, you know, self-published, but he worked with a specific designer and editor and was able to kind of put the right team together to create something that looks like Random House put it together. It looks like McGraw-Hill. It looks like real serious stuff. His books are beautiful and Different business model, a lot of different— and it kind of depends on what you're writing a book for. You know, some people, you know, get to a point in their lives where they just feel like they have something to say and they want to write a book, and it may be for a small audience. You know, others may have a coaching practice or something that they want to do with it. You know, certainly in my case, I want to use the book to extend the reach of the content. But I would also like to figure out beyond the book, how do we continue on that mission, right? How do we get teams working together more together, more effectively, right? Kind of like what we talked about at the start of the program where the accountability model is different, where they just engage one another, you know, in a way that's, I think, just a much more positive environment where the leader is truly, you know, a part of the team. Yeah, so, so for me, there's the book, there's the work that I do for groups, and the more work I want to do for organizations. And then the ability to even take that and kind of following the similar model of what I did with groups to create what I've got for teams right now is to continue to refine the model for teams so that we can create a truly effective DIY model for people to do it themselves. Because there's no way, as we all know, I don't care how many, whether, you know, you led some of these sessions or I did, or we got 10, 20, 50 other people, it's a drop in the bucket when you can compare it to what could happen if you made it available, made that content available in a way where they could actually really take it themselves and not just to have it and check off a box, but in a way that it would be really effective for them. So, um, so, so that's kind of my kind of thinking, you know, with regard to this for me. But, you know, I think for other folks who are thinking about, you know, a book, I know publishers are really interested not only in the content, um, they're interested in the competitors, right? They're interested in like, well, how many other books are there about this subject? So you can only imagine what it's like to write a leadership book today, right? With the gajillion, you know, titles that are out there. So, there better be something about it that really walks through a different door or, you know, talks about it in a different way. But, you know, you think about, you know, those kinds of things and then they're looking at the competitive landscape, but then they also want to look at what is the platform you have out there? So for example, how many people know about your work, right? How many, you know, your social media platform, your institutions, your associations, your, you know, all the people that might be interested enough to actually buy the book and want to do something with it, you know? So for me, those tend to span both academic and business with regard to, you know, interested audiences and things like that. But, And then I think for me at least in doing The Power of Peers, I was really fortunate. I was at Vistage at the time. It was a co-authored experience, which I think was also good because I think there was certainly a partnership there. And we went through a traditional publisher rather than self-publish it because I think for us at the time, and maybe this isn't really even true anymore, If you're not known in the space, and I would suggest that Leon and I weren't household names in the space of that, right? Then I think you want the credibility of a publisher, which kind of puts a stamp on what we're doing here and the quality of it at a certain level. I think the more you get established for yourself and what you do, the less people are looking at who's publishing your book, which I think offers an opportunity for self-publishing, which for most authors you know, certainly provides a better business model, you know, for them. And let's— it's not like, you know, again, you know, this isn't, you know, Michelle Obama, you know, commanding, you know, an X million dollar advance for writing a book, right? I mean, when you talk with like normal people who are writing, you know, business trade books largely, um, you know, so it's, it's just, there's just different ways to do it. I, I would definitely encourage anyone to, you know, if it's something you think you want to do, at least my way of doing it was to really just frame it out first, right? Like you were building a house, you know, and I use the term framing because there's geometry associated with that. It isn't a list. It isn't just creating a table of contents. It's kind of looking at it, I think, more geometrically than that. But Just having a framework for, you know, what you want to do, what you want to say, and what the takeaways for the audience are going to be. And just start writing, you know, just start getting it down, just start not overthinking it, don't worry about getting things perfect, just get something down. It's like you just lay it down, you know, and then you can futz with it later and correct and play around. And like most of us who, you know, you get an editor involved who really knows what they're doing also, for a lot of different reasons. And yeah, so—

Well, and from my safe distance, not, you know, not contributing in that regard, I mean, for me, it's just been an effort of evangelism, which is really the genesis of, of what was the first, the first podcast, The Year You're the Peer, which morphed into What Anyone Can Do, which has transitioned and pivoted yet again to what will probably be a longer, a longer pivot, we hope, to Peer Innovation, to just to get this message out. And to just to spread, spread the possibility of this. Because I know that both of us, in, in all the interactions that we do, there are still so many people that it's completely foreign. You know, some of the things that we talk about that we, we may even take for granted. As you said, I mean, it's a drop in the bucket even if we had an army of people that could help us evangelize. The need is really, really great. So the more platforms to get it out there and the more credibility that a voice can have. So, you know, that's, that's my, my small contribution was to just try to push forward for this platform, which thankfully has led to, you know, what, well, 4 years ago, what's what was more of a legitimate platform, book publishing, but now podcasting has, you know, has, has really taken off and mushroomed. And so all these things are congruent and congruent in your CEO World work, uh, certainly has had a pivotal role in C-Suite Network and C-Suite Network.

Yeah, they're great. You know, I love those guys. I love what they're doing. I love how aggressive they are, and they're all about serving their members, all about serving their audiences. And when you think about what they've done and where they started, you know, I was one of the early people to get involved with them, you know, with your help obviously on the podcast thing when we first got involved with those guys. And it's been, it's been a just a really good relationship because they're truly about— this isn't about a group of people that kind of takes your money and just put you up on the platform and that's that. You know, I'll, I'll hear directly from Jeffrey Hayslett, or I'll hear directly from people saying, how can we help you? Let us know how we can help you. They don't, you know, wait for you to come to them and ask. And, um, so of course Jeffrey was kind enough to write the foreword, um, for the book. And, um, you know, and I, I look forward to working with a lot of the other hosts and podcasts where if I am a relevant guest for their audience, We want to do as much of that as possible. And I think in the coming year, it's going to give us also some interesting access to people who we feel are also a really good fit for this show. And just everyone's going to be, you know, all the richer because of it. You brought up this idea of how— this has always been amazing to me, if you think about it, right? How could something that is so common and has so been part of our lives for our entire lives when it comes to our peers and how they influence us and how we work with them and all. And yet, on the other hand, it's exactly what you're saying. It's somehow it's this foreign concept, and it's really perplexing at a certain level that we haven't put together. But, you know, and this has been the, you know, subject of some past conversations where Everything we do, for the most part, is really about how do we reward the individual. We're constantly, whether it's awards, rewards, you know, compensation, you name it, we get paid as individuals. And so as long as those things are always going to be out there and Unlike sports, you know, where if you're on the kind of a team sport, right? This isn't, and I don't mean, you know, this isn't like team sports like golf or tennis or track and field. And I'm talking about real team sports like soccer, like football, like basketball, even hockey, I guess, you know. Just kidding. Now that we're out. But, you know, It's just a, it's a different deal where we're now coming together and having to really win a championship, do something that cannot be done without everybody's contribution, with everyone being there for a reason and all that. And yet too oftentimes in companies, we aren't leveraging all the talent around us in the way we can to help us get to the outcomes. That we can achieve. And I think it's because those things are less visible. You know, something can be very, very good, but maybe it could have been excellent. But we'll never know.

Right.

So yeah. Yeah.

That whole what could be thing. And that has driven me. I was, as you were saying that, I was thinking about 25 years ago, and the details are unimportant, but I had a segment of employees and we had revenue that was being generated from customers for their particular function. And I devised, with some help of some of the other leadership team, a bonus program that they all would share in. And at the end of the month, they were all sharing it equally. And some of the things that would be extracted from that bonus pool would be things that at an individual level they had responsibility over. So if somebody broke something, if somebody caused some damage, or then that came out of the pool, you know, so it was like, we all win, we all lose together. And tremendous resistance, as you can imagine, going in. And within 60 days, within 2 months, if memory serves, this is a long time ago, completely different, completely different. And leadership no longer was having to really do much except inform them, here's where you're at, here's the plus, here's the plus column, here's the minus problem. And one of the most memorable things is I had a visit one afternoon from one of the employees who had left a piece of equipment behind and it had been lost. And this is a, you know, this was a $200-$300 item. And the rules, that was going to come out of the bonus. He didn't— boy, he did not want it coming out of the bonus. He said, I want to pay for that. I don't want my— I said, I appreciate it. And I thought about it a little while and I said, no, we're not going to do that. You know, we're not going to do that. We're all in this together. And, uh, you know, but the sentiment was, I appreciated his sentiment. So, and that was 25 years ago, you know, and I think so much of this is just creativity. And while we're talking about books and all this, I don't know, let's kind of end on, on that note. I'll hijack the conversation here a little bit, but just the creativity of accountability, the creativity of writing a book, the creativity of leadership, the creativity of, of us being part of high-performing teams. What are your thoughts?

Um, that creativity doesn't just come from the top. That's for damn sure. You know, it comes from, from everywhere. And the more you access it and empower people and let them know that we want to hear from them and that their voice matters, uh, the more they're likely to be able to contribute. To the kind of creativity that you're, that you're talking about. And I think as leaders, the more we try to control, the worse it gets. You know, it's interesting about— it kind of brings me back to the piece that I wrote this week where I set up the scenario where if, if I'm the leader and I decide that I'm going to run an additional dashboard instead of once a week, it's going to be twice a week now, or I'm going to impose all these additional metrics that someone now has to prepare for, they have to report on, they have to do whatever. And this is where information, I think, can just be, you know, people talk about information is power. Sometimes information is just information. Sometimes information is like, makes us feel good that we can, but in the end, one of the questions that I don't think most boards deal with is tell us what was lost in productivity with the time that everyone had to spend in preparing for this meeting right here today? How much did we lose? They're not having that conversation.

No.

And yet they really should. They— because one of two things are going to happen. You're either spending less time being productive against the things that are actually moving those metrics forward, right? So you're killing it right there. Or now your people have to put in an extra how many hours a week in order to make up for the fact that they're just, you know, have to send in book reports about, you know, where they are and what they're doing just to make a bunch of people feel good. And again, I don't say that— I think accountability is crucial. I don't think it's unimportant. But, you know, getting people to play for one another and doing it in a way that's reasonable and doing it where things are transparent And you're spending as much time actually playing the game, if you will, as opposed to just counting your poker chips. I think you're going to fare a lot better.

So we appreciate you, the audience, and we hope that we're giving you something of value. Update us on calendar time period with the book if you, if you're able to.

So my hope, it could be this week or early next week, I would imagine I should be receiving the design of the interior pages and some options around what those pages will look like. Anywhere from the typeface to— I'm actually, in addition to figures and things that I'm going to have, I'm also going to have some pull quotes that will run throughout the book, just kind of the things that we want to highlight with that. So I'll get some design choices on that, and depending on what form they come in and what that looks like, it may be a fun thing to post on LinkedIn and get people to, hey, pick which one do you like. You want A or B or A, B, or C, whatever it is I'm getting. I'm also going to be getting some cover designs. Those may be just a little after. I don't think these are going to come at the same time as the interior page designs, but cover design is coming fast as well. And again, that'll be kind of another fun thing to look at and get people's sense of you know, what really appeals to them around that. And I think I'm going to get 3 or 4 different cover designs to choose from, and then all of a sudden we can do some back and forth on those, of course. But I think that's going to be the fun part at this point. And then from there, it's just getting— because the manuscript is done, so it's just at this point a matter of getting page proofs and then signing off on it all and getting that thing together. Getting a, um, a pre-order date, which I think is going to be real important. And then one of the things, of course, that I'll be asking our listeners, you know, once the book becomes available, is those first few weeks, it's really looking at, you know, how do we drive pre-orders and then how we get as many Amazon reviews as possible. And, and so I'm excited about the prospect of that. Um, I've got a I think putting a good effort against people, inviting them to read the book, whether it's the ebook or— one of the things that I've kind of decided to do is I'll have some hardcover versions available, but I think I'm going to largely distribute this through paperback and through ebook. And then down the road, and not that long, but We'll go audiobook, you know, later. But when you think about Frances Scholl's book, when you think about, um, actually Jeffrey Hazlitt's book, The Hero Factor, a bunch of them, they're good looking, they're smart, they're less expensive. And again, I, I want to make sure that this, more than anything, just the content gets out there. So if I can do that and make it at a less cost for people, either with ebook or paperback, then I'd prefer to do that.

So yeah, and we'll— hey, I'll even solicit, if you're a listener and you want to be in on the pre-launch army, kind of help us get the word out, then we'd absolutely— use the contact form at peerinnovation.co and reach out, and I'm sure we can figure something out.

They'll become part of Peer Innovation Nation.

Yeah, there you go. That's exactly right. So we appreciate you. Visit the website. You can find out all kinds of ways to subscribe to the podcast at peerinnovation.co and spread the word. And we appreciate it. Have a great week, everybody.

You bet.

Thank you for joining us. To subscribe to the podcast, and learn more about how you can engage peer innovation for your organization, contact us on the website at peerinnovation.co. Till next week, remember, the power of we begins with you.