On Being Fearless with Jacqueline Wales

Welcome to Peer Innovation, the podcast with Leo Bottari and me, Randy Cantrell. Building on our previous shows, The Year of the Peer and What Anyone Can Do, we turn our attention to helping business leaders build high-performing teams. We'll talk with a diverse group of thought leaders who will share stories and insights that will help you and your teams achieve new heights. If you believe there is strength in numbers and that meeting the challenges of the future can only be achieved if we do it together, then join us for the conversation. Our guest today is Jaclynn Wells. Jaclynn is the author of The Fearless Factor at Work: Your Essential Guide for Unlocking the Secrets to a Fearless Career and Life. Jaclynn is a leadership coach and a passionate CrossFit athlete. We welcome Jaclynn to the show.

Jacqueline Wales, welcome to the show. I can't tell you how excited I am. You know, Jen Thornton, as you know, who we had a guest recently, was so excited about introducing us because she really thought, wow, what a great opportunity for you two to get together. And not only as we had a wonderful conversation obviously prior to what we're doing today, but to have a conversation that, you know, some people can, can join in on as well. As I mentioned to you, unfortunately Randy won't be able to join us today, so it'll be the two of us and we'll get to, you know, continue a bit of our phone call. But welcome to the show, of course. And what I'd love to do is start by— you've got such a wonderful story and such a fascinating story, and I'd love for you to just share a little bit about you and how you came to become passionate about the work that you do today. And let's just go from there.

So, long story, of course, you know, there's always a long story. But, you know, people ask me frequently, why fear? You know, why are you so engaged with fear? And truly, it was a lifetime journey. Started very early in age, you know, when I was in my family of origin, a tremendous amount of fear involved in that, that translated into making me a very fearful individual who did a lot of damaging stuff before she finally woke up to the fact that, you know, there was a different way to live. And I like to say that everything that I teach, everything I talk about, is because I have been there and I have done that, and I know what this looks and feels and smells like, and it is not good. And so for 15 years, I've been spending a lot of time with, with individuals, teaching them how to move beyond the fears that hold them back. And what I found out was that fundamental to fear is the sense that I'm not good enough. And again, I grew up with that. I was told over and over again I wouldn't amount to too much. And I went about proving that that was in fact the case for a lot of years until finally, you know, ding ding, let's wake up and let's figure out how to do it differently. Um, but it took a lot. It took a lot of therapy. It took a lot of coaching. It took a lot of this, that, and the next thing. But everything that I've learned over a lifetime, and at this point in time I've had a few years put on that life, um, it has been in service of change and embracing change. I like to say fear is the sharp edge of excitement. And when you think about, you know, getting beyond the fears, it's about courage. It's about taking risks. And I have taken many, many risks in my lifetime. You know, I've lived a very unconventional life. Most people go into the corporate world and they do the ladder. And I like to say that's the vertical life. I have lived my life horizontally and done all kinds of things but never within the corporate ladder because I never— I knew from the get-go it wasn't a good fit. But what I did do was I spent a lifetime observing human behavior. From the start, it was this acute need to observe what was going on around me and become very conscious of what was going to happen next. But eventually that translated into just being fascinated. My kids would say to me when we're sitting on a bus or a subway, "Stop staring." And I'm like, You don't get it. I'm just really curious about why people are doing what they're doing.

So this leads me to— I mean, because, you know, obviously I did spend some time learning about you, and the more that I learned, the more I wanted to learn more, right? Part of the curiosity thing you talked about. So when I think about this whole idea of fear and the fact that you've lived and worked in several continents, you are quite skilled, to say the least, in the martial arts, you work in CrossFit, for example, you do CrossFit. Are these things that helped you through fear, or what's the chicken or the egg here? Or do they kind of work hand in hand in terms of, you know, because most people don't in their— sometime in their 40s, if I believe I'm correct— seek to earn a black belt, for example. And yet, so that's a thing that's pretty daunting. And yet, at the same time, I can see doing that and the whole process and discipline of that being an incredible, you know, agent for becoming fearless in many respects. And that's, you know, I personally— I'd love to get your comment on this— I don't think about being fearless from a standpoint of Courage isn't the absence of fear, it's obviously moving forward in the face of fear. So, I'd love to get a sense of what that journey was like for you because you're so incredibly accomplished in so many different things. It's just really— I'd love for our audience to learn more about that.

Well, for the martial arts side of things, like a lot of things, my kids were doing martial arts and I looked at it, but their lessons and I thought, you know, I've always wanted to try this. And at the time, I think I was about 43. And my first lesson, it felt like it was a duck to water. You know, it just— the discipline of it, the form of it, the energy of it. I've always been a very physical human being. You know, when I was a child, I climbed on everything and we weren't just talking trees, we were talking roofs and other things that, you know, you're not supposed to be climbing on. So there's always been that physicality in my life. Martial arts for me became a very natural place to be. I started off in Taekwondo and then I switched because I moved continents. I went from Los Angeles to Paris to karate. Each of these disciplines was the same thing. It was like a meditation because when you're involved in training, you can't think of anything else. You are totally present to what is happening. But the drive for control has always been a big piece of my life. I'll be honest with you, I'm absolutely known in my family as a major controller. I've gotten better as I've gotten older, but you know, the whole idea of martial arts is I'm in control of my body, I'm in control of my life, and that became a kind of driving force for me because my 40s were really filled with a lot of Uh, you, you know, as you said, you've done a lot of things. I started writing, I started singing in public, I started martial arts, you know, I traveled the globe. I did all kinds of stuff that, you know, most people don't get to do. The martial arts piece, the things that I learned in martial arts apply to everything in life. And what I discovered was, and I teach my clients, the 6 things that I learned in martial arts First of all, you've got to be committed, fight. You've got to be commitment. Then you've got to be focused, and you don't just focus on hands and legs, you focus on eyes. So you're really taking in the whole body. The third piece of that is discipline, thousands of hours. And we know as entrepreneurs, you got to do thousands of hours before you feel like an expert. Then we've got follow-through. You've got to be able to follow through. If somebody throws a punch or a kick, you got to follow through. Then you've got to have consistency. You got to be able to do the same thing over and over again. And I wasn't a very consistent human being. It's one of the things I struggle with, but there you are. And the last piece is perseverance. You fall down, you get back up again, and you don't take no for an answer.

And that's really the, you know, the starting point.

So those 6 things of commitment, focus, discipline, follow-through, consistency, and perseverance, you can apply to everything in your life. Everything, if you want to succeed.

Well, and you know what really hit me, what struck me as you were for identifying those 6 areas is how important they are, not to just us as individuals, but to great teams, right? If you want to be a great team, you got to be able to do those 6 things, and you got to be able to do them really, really well. You know, one of the things, you know, we had talked about, because obviously the work you do as a coach, but you also, and I know you've got some things coming up that we'll talk about later in this regard as well, But this whole idea of peers and coaching and how they can help one another, tell us a little bit about your experiences with that and why you've come to recognize and realize how important that is.

Well, you talk about in your book the me versus we conversation, and I'm an absolute believer that we can't lead and we can't be part of a high-performing team unless we ourselves, the me part, is very much aware of who they are. But not only that, how do you fit within the structure of what's going on? I can't tell you the number of managers I work with where I spend most of my time coaching them on how to communicate with their teams, how to have the conversations, how to get into the ask, don't tell position, if you like. But a lot of that self-awareness that comes from knowing who you are, knowing what your strengths are, knowing what your weaknesses are, knowing where your blind blind spots are, which is even more important, becomes a critical issue in that team building piece. And so what I've found over the years is that small groups— and you talk about this in your book too— small groups have a much clearer focus. So those 6 elements that we just talked about, they're very hard to do in large groups. But what I've discovered is that when I have a small group put together and we have those conversations, And we can get people to open up to the vision, the trust, the, uh, the appreciation piece, which is really important, um, and, and the connectivity of, of all of them, and be willing to be candid and yet at the same time respectful of, of the conversations that are taking place. Uh, I think this is really what I, I really want to focus on and do focus on with with groups. I do believe that large groups turns into a rah-rah-rah session. You'll give them some motivation, but they do nothing with it. If you get a group, small group together, there's a sense of community because every human being needs to have that sense of belonging. They also have to have a sense of purpose. And, you know, this is really a big piece in building strong teams together. So that's kind of where my focus goes. But the me versus we piece, it is a we conversation, and too many times the silos create me conversations. It doesn't work.

Yeah, you bring up, I mean, obviously this whole notion of belonging and purpose, and, and you mentioned communication. You find this interesting, I had a client who was basically at a cross-functional work team, all A players, really good really great people, didn't necessarily feel like they were functioning as an A-team. And they were about a half-billion-dollar company, wanted to be a billion-dollar company. Well, the more we actually got into the conversation with the team, we discovered that being a billion-dollar company really didn't mean a lot to them. It was a number. It was like, what is it, ego? Is it whatever? It's money we're never going to see, whatever you want to call it, right? But once we started thinking about it from the perspective, all right, what if we actually tapped into their purpose and why they're here. They're proud of the product they make. They love what they do. They know it can make a difference in people's lives. What if we became a larger organization that allowed us to extend our reach, you know, basically to, you know, get more customers and to realize and change their lives? And, you know, just to be able to extend that and give purpose to this idea of growing to be a billion-dollar company as opposed to just being We want to be here, we want to be there. Let's go hit the number. And just framing that differently for them from a standpoint of much more of a purpose statement and less about some kind of a numerical target made a huge difference.

Yeah, and I think the piece that's missing also, you have, you know, 3 components, is the belonging. The piece of the middle is empowerment.

You need to have this piece of allowing people to feel empowered, to have a voice, to have a participation in the process, and to feel that it's making a difference. Because, you know, so many times within an organization, people are just pulling paycheck, you know, they're, they're really not engaged, they're really not giving all they can to, to whatever it is. And so for me, it's about how can I help you bring out your authenticity? How can I help help you accelerate your processes and be less fearful. Because let's face it, a lot of people are afraid to speak up in the workplace. You know, I do a lot of behavioral assessments, and what I see regularly is a lot of the aggressive defensive and passive defensive behaviors are actually driven by fear. I need to win. I need to be better than. I need to be perfect, or I need to keep my head down and just get on with it and not have much to say, or I'm looking for approval, you know, or I just want to follow the rules. A lot of that is based on fear, in my opinion. You know, it's like, I don't want to take risks. If you look at people's achievement scores, they may not be as high as they could be because they don't take enough risks, because they're not stepping up. Because they're not having a voice in the conversation that knows it's safe. And we both know psychological safety is critical in order to build a culture of understanding and improvement.

Do we get so focused on the consequences? You know, when I was hearing you talk about we need to win, we need to— and in my head I was hearing we need to win or else, we need to do this or else, you know, we start getting worried about consequences to the point where it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, right? And it seems to feed this idea that, you know, people have talked about obviously for centuries and decades, which is we are oftentimes far more fearful of success than we are failure. We talk about it in terms of being for failure, but we're really, when you get right down to it, oftentimes you know, really fearful of what comes with actually achieving, right?

Well, I think, you know, I've often defined it as failure and success are two sides of the same coin. You know, that if I ask people, what's your greatest fear? I will frequently hear failure. And of course, my response to that is, well, we're all failing our way to success. So, you know, get with it. You know, what is failure but it's the wrong choice, the wrong expectation, you know, and that's really what it comes down to. And then the success side of it is, well, I'll have to change. I actually had somebody say that to me. Well, I'll have to change. Like, duh. Yes, you will. And what's negative about that? You know? So it's like, you know, the perception of what success means, of course, for a lot of people is what's in the bank. They're not considering how successful do I feel as an individual? I think that's really where a lot of my focus is. I want to help you feel like you're a successful individual regardless of your title, regardless of how much money is in the bank or what kind of house you live in or car you drive. How do you feel about yourself in the world? Are you showing up as the best version of you? 9 times out of 10, not so much.

Well, this speaks to a couple of things that you and I have talked about. I know that you talk in terms of learning, growing, and achieving. And when I think about the learning-achieving cycle that I write about in the book, it talks in terms of learning, sharing, applying, achieving. And to me, the sharing, applying is just a way that we grow, right? If you really think about it. So we're very much, you know, in that space in terms of the importance and value of that. But, you know, to the person you mentioned about, oh, I guess I have to change that. And oftentimes learning can be scary, especially technology is changing so quickly. There's so many things going on. People are like, God, I can't take on one more piece of technology. I can't, one more. Can't I just do the things the way I've always been doing it? Because it's just so much easier that way. But you and I chatted a little bit about the value and importance of reflection. Both as individuals and taking that time. Maybe this in some respects goes to that, the meditative benefits that you found through martial arts or for other ways that we kind of reflect like that. But I guess as we think about ourselves and the difference we can make for others, what are, what are some thoughts that you can share with our listeners regarding not only the value of reflection but maybe how to go about doing so?

Well, you know, like you, you probably noticed too, people tell me I don't have time for self-reflection. Well, do you ever get moments when you're out on a walk and you're thinking, you know, there's something going on here that maybe I should pay attention to, or I've been meaning to change something for a while, and what do you think it is that's getting in the way? A lot of people journal as a way of self-reflection, and I've found that the journaling process doesn't work for everybody because it's time-consuming. Time-consuming and, you know, a little bit laborious for some. So, even taking once a quarter to sit down and write down, what are my goals? What do I want to achieve? What are the obstacles that are getting in my way right now? Where would I want to start making some changes? These are all self-reflective questions. I mean, my books are both about the Fearless Factor and the Fearless Factor work are designed to give people the opportunity to reflect on how's your life working out for you so far, you know, and taking it through these different aspects of self-awareness and communication fears and so forth. I call it deep dive for a reason because I'm not looking for surface answers. You know, I had one teacher many years ago who said, you know, it's not enough to ask about the why, and Simon Sinek makes a big thing about the why. We got to know the why.

What I discovered was, "What about that matters?" is an even deeper question than "Why?" It's why we can kind of, you know, spin that one out as far as you want to go. But "What about that matters?" And that came about when I was writing my first book, When the Crow Sings, which is a semi-autobiographical novel set in Scotland.

Well, that to me, when I first saw that, that your first book was a novel, I said that may be the scariest thing ever to have to go into that, because that's a a whole different ballgame than writing a nonfiction book. So, yeah.

It definitely is. And that took me 12 years to write, by the way, because there was constant iterations of it. But eventually I hired somebody called a story coach. And he wasn't there to write the book for me, but he was there to help me with the focus on the different parts of it. And he was a screenwriter. So every time I'd write a scene, he'd say to me, so what about that matters? And it was about the characters and about the situations that the characters found themselves in.

And that for me was such a profound lesson for everything that I do.

You know, what, what about that matters?

Not why are you doing it, but what about that matters speaks to the reflection piece first and foremost, but it has to have a purpose attached to it. It's not just because, you know, if you're living your life just because Well, you're not living your own life. You're probably living somebody else's life. And so, you know, my retort for that is, are you going to be the author of your own life, or are you going to live in someone else's epic novel? And too many people are living in someone else's epic novel. But that piece there, I think that question on self-reflection, what about that matters? Every leader should be asking themselves that.

Yeah, I think a lot of people should not just be asking themselves the why question, but the why not. You know, when I think about the story of you taking up martial arts in your 40s— my dad, by the way, very similar situation. He was in his 40s. He had left the Boston Police Department and actually pursued a career as a Class A PGA professional in his 40s, went to all of the PGA schools and everything that all the 20-somethings were going to, and was the oldest guy in the class and did all that kind of stuff. And, you know, most people would have thought, oh, that's passed you by. And yet here he went and actually stepped up and did it. And he taught golf for over 30 years. And he'll be back at— you know, he's retired for a little while now. He's going to go back teaching a little bit again this summer, but loved it. It changed the entire trajectory of his life because, you know, sometimes you can just ask the why not question. You know, it's like, well, why can't I do that? You know, what makes it so out of reach for me right now to just—

yeah.

So I think if you want to learn how to play an instrument, you want to You want to take up a sport, you want to change your career, you know, why not?

It speaks to something that I talk about, which is not about age, it's about attitude, you know, and having the right attitude is really that why not piece, you know. I did stuff in my life that people look at and go, I wouldn't even dream of thinking of going there. You know, I was 49 years old when I took my black belt. I was 53 years old when I started coaching. So it just gives you an idea of the number of years on me at this point in time. But, you know, the fact of the matter is you're never too old to do whatever it is that drives your passion.

We're in our prime. I think we're in our prime.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I think, you know, the fact is that the idea of aging, and that's a whole other conversation, but, you know, there's a stereotype of what aging is supposed to look like. And I think that we are in an age where it doesn't matter anymore, you know, as long as you're healthy. And that's one of the reasons why I continue to do CrossFit and keep myself healthy. I plan on living a lot of years. So, you know, let's do it right.

Well, and, you know, we, we talk about the fact that, you know, as we think about yet another layer of the challenge in terms of building high-performing teams and companies, is we are really at, if if we're not there already, we're right at the precipice of having 5 generations in the workforce. Pretty phenomenal if you think about it. And I think for many, for lack of a better word, older workers or those who want to remain in the workforce, it's because this idea of traditional retirement that, okay, I'm going to get the gold watch or whatever and go fishing or play golf for the rest of my life is not— I have no interest in doing that. I have so much that I want to do. And so, you know, I'm more excited to show up to work, you know, if you will, today than I've ever been in my whole life. It's the last thing in the world I would ever want to do.

That's really, you know, the amazing piece of this. You know, it's like I can actually say at this point in my life, I have some wisdom that I've acquired that, you know, a 30-something doesn't have, which is why I love working with millennials, frankly, because they're hungry, they're ambitious, they really want to drive their careers forward. So for me, it's like, well, let's get you set up properly. You know, if you're going to be a leader, let's get you focused on what a good leader, a great leader looks like, you know, and give you the skills and the insights. And of course, we know there's too many companies who don't give people the opportunity to really develop themselves to the fullest, you know, by seeking an outside source that, yeah, can offer wisdom and experience and all kinds of things to, to help with that process. But I think it's an exciting time to be living in, frankly. You know, my parents were dead by the time they were in their 60s, and I look at it now and I go, geez, you know, I've got friends who are heading towards 100 and they're still thriving, you know.

Yeah, it was my grandparents actually who both died right around the age of 60, and, you know, it's kind of hard to imagine. But you know what's interesting too is when I look at photos of my grandparents, and they absolutely aligned with how I remember them. And they looked old at 60 years old. They looked like they were in their 80s, you know, quite frankly. And I think we do a lot better job of taking care of ourselves, taking care of our minds, taking care of our bodies and whatever, our nutrition. I think there's a lot—

but the difference between then and now is The difference between then and now is that we have a lot more information to tap into. Sure. We have a lot more visibility of what good health and good living looks like.

You bet.

And both of us are proponents of if we can be well situated in the mind, knowing who we are and translating that through our bodies and taking care of our bodies, we know that that works. We are walking examples of of that. You know, I mean, they talk about biological age versus chronological age, you know, and they are two different things based on how well you take care of yourself. So there's a lot more information. And of course, you know, today's world, there's almost too much information. You know, we're overwhelmed by it. So we have to choose where we want to put our focus. But we have kind of digressed at this point. So I want to bring us back to our original conversation.

No, no, no. I think it is all, I think it is all really you know, quite, um, well interrelated. What I'd like to do though, um, before we head out, because I'm sure we could continue this conversation for hours, but, um, I'd love for people to get, um, a sense of where they can find more about you and your work. And also, I know you've got a program coming up in a couple of weeks that I'd really love for our listeners to take notes and, and be thinking about taking advantage of for themselves, if you could tell us more about it. Thank you.

So I'll start with the 6-week program. Um, I call it the Accelerated Fearless Program because what we've discovered is that, uh, 6 weeks of amazing self-reflective content together with individualized coaching and group coaching accelerates change remarkably. People are having amazing breakthroughs, understanding where they get in their own way, and developing some insights into How I can do things better. We look at limiting beliefs. We look at your communication skills. We look at a whole lot of stuff. It's amazing, packed in for 6 weeks of stuff. And of course, it's just the beginning because we know behavior change takes a while. We don't get to it overnight, but at least open people up to the idea of I can do it differently. I can think differently. I can take different actions. So that's really the kind of overarching focus of this 6-week program that starts on January 26th. Right now it's for senior professional women. I carefully curate the cohorts. So, because I think it's really important in peers, peer-to-peer situations that you've got people who are more or less, you know, equal, you know, different but equal. So that's the 6-week program that starts on the 26th. And if anybody's listening and wants to know more, they can go to my website, which is thefearlessfactoratwork.com. And there's lots of information on there under the services tab that will give you some insights into that. It's by application only, simply because this is not for everybody. And I want to make sure that people are well matched. So that, that's a big deal right there. And then of course, the book's available on Amazon, The Fearless Factor at Work. So that's pretty much it. Yeah.

Well, that's, um, that's quite a bit actually, and a lot of value there. And, and I hope that, um, you not only visit the website but you take a look at that program and, uh, find out if it's right for you. But, um, in the meantime, Jacqueline, thank you so much. Again, thanks to, um, Jen Thornton for introducing us. Um, look forward to staying in touch, and, um, hopefully we'll get together again soon.

Thank you, Leo. My pleasure.

Thank you for joining us. To subscribe to the podcast and learn more about how you can engage peer innovation for your organization, contact us on the website at peerinnovation.co. Until next week, remember the power of we B begins with you.