What Anyone Can Do: Leo & Randy On Transition (Season 2020, Episode 18)

Welcome to the What Anyone Can Do podcast with Leo Battari and me, Randy Cantrell. This show picks up where our previous show, You're the Peer, left off, highlighting the simple truth that who you surround yourself with matters, and that if we enlist the support of others, give back to those who give to us, and pay it forward for the next generation, we can do anything. Author and keynote speaker Leo Battari and I talk with a diverse group of thought leaders who will share stories and insights that will help you succeed in business and in life.

How?

By doing the things anyone can do, but most of us never will.

Hi, welcome back.

It's, it's the final episode. Yeah, we'll tease it that way. It's the final episode of What Anyone Can Do, the podcast. Uh, he's the star of the show, Leo Bottari. The website is leobottari.com, Leo Bottari. You can also get there by going to peerinnovation.co. My name is Randy Cantrell. Uh, it's not our last podcast episode. But today we're going to talk about transitioning as America is reopening from the COVID-19 pandemic. Lots of changes, lots of disruption. And we decided we'd just not stick our toe in the water, but we'd just dive in headfirst and join the crowd.

Well, and the timing is such where it's a natural evolution, right? I mean, we started with the, um, the Year of the Peer, you know, podcast, which would, by definition was going to be a year long, which we pretty much, you know, pretty much stuck to that. And then, you know, the second book came out, What Anyone Can Do, and I think it was obviously, as you know, based on all of the incredible guests we had on the Year of the Peer podcast that transitioned that conversation from the power of how and why peer groups, you know, power peer groups and how and why they're so effective for CEO and business leaders to talk more about the full complement of people who are in our lives and are part of our circle, and also with whom we engage not just in formal group meetings, but in our everyday lives. And, but I think, you know, after, you know, some great guests and a number of episodes where we just covered off on, you know, I think topics of the day, on that. I think the focus not only of the new book, Peer Innovation, but also what people are really going to be thinking about now when it comes to high-performing teams that have an all-new challenge of not just, you know, coming into the office maybe every day, but for, for some it'll either be some hybrid form, some may continue to work remotely, you know, permanently, as has been announced. You know, by Twitter and some other organizations who are at least going to extend this work remote, you know, collaboration. And that's going to present some, I think, some exciting opportunities and some new challenges. And I think when we consider peer innovation, which is basically going to look at how the 5 factors, right, what we've learned from high-performing groups, how it really applies to high-performing teams, whether we are in the same office or whether we're in the same room or the same Zoom, right? I mean, it's all really about, you know, how we go about and really squeeze every ounce of value out of the incredible teams that are out there. And, you know, so Peer Innovation will start next week. I'm really excited about that and real excited too because I know that we're going to really put a premium on having more guests in peer innovation so we get a lot of different perspectives around what people are seeing out there with regard to, you know, high-performing teams. And I think one of the great guests to start off the whole, this whole series with really, is Craig Weber. And Craig Weber is the author of Conversational Capacity and also Influence in Action. You know, if you think about collaboration, part of it is really being able to talk with one another and be able to do so in a way that's positive and productive. And, um, and I know no one who has a better way to talk about and give us the tools for how to make that possible than Craig Weber. So I think getting started and really talking about conversational capacity and what that looks like and then building from that Uh, over time, I think it's just going to be really awesome.

And for you, the listener and the viewer, you don't have to change anything. You just have to keep showing back up. So nothing changes on your end. Thanks to technology. We're just going to rebrand the show to Peer Innovation, uh, with, uh, probably keeping the tagline that we've even got right now, who you surround yourself with matters. Give us some background, Leo, for those people that may be tuning in for the first time or people that haven't quite caught the whole term peer innovation. Give us the backstory because it's not only the name of the podcast, but it's the name of your company and really beginning to be the— not beginning, but I don't know, we're kind of getting to this apex of your life's work over the better part of the past decade now. So give us a little bit of the backstory, if you would.

Yeah, you know, well, basically, again, starting kind of quickly, when I was at, you know, Vistage, and we were looking, for example, at seeing how incredibly powerful peer groups were for CEOs and business leaders. And yet when you asked when we did focus groups and we did surveys and we asked CEOs and business leaders, how do you go about improving and getting better? They would tell you every, every resource in the world except being part of a peer group, right? They would talk about, I go to executive education programs, I hire coaches, I read books, you know, they go right down the list. Very few, if any, mentioned being part of a peer group, and yet We know that people who are part of CEO peer groups or executive peer groups, it's incredibly powerful. I mean, it's a huge resource for them. And I thought, here is Vistage, and not just Vistage, but others, the, you know, everyone else out there, the Renaissance, the EOS, the YPOs, you know, who are out there in many respects trying to sell a Mercedes to someone who doesn't know what a car is. So I think it helped from, from our standpoint was say, how do we give language to this very unique benefit that people can access? So we wrote The Power of Peers and, and did it in collaboration with Leon Shapiro, who at the time was the CEO of Vistage. And, you know, board really was excited about it. And the idea too, by the way, and it's— this isn't really key is that we weren't writing a hardcover brochure for Vistage. That was not what this was about. We looked at peer groups throughout the U.S. and around the world and really looked at what, where some of the secret sauce was, if you will, and how they work really well. The long story on that, the reason I'm kind of sharing that is basically we, you recognize that peer influence is this incredibly powerful force that exists in our lives and has been part of our lives for as long as we can remember, right? It is who you surround yourself with matters. It's your friends cared about who you hung out with as kids and all of that. And we are influenced both positively and negatively by the people who surround us. In the course of writing the book, when we talked about people coming together for the specific purpose of convening as part of a group, we thought in terms of what happens when you take this powerful force of peer influence and we're simply more selective, more strategic, and structured? About how we engage that group, it's going to be possibly, presumably, that much more powerful, right? And so peer influence became what we coined as peer advantage. From there, as we continued to study groups after the power of peers and discovered at the same time that all of the things that we've learned about groups and group dynamics were incredibly applicable to high-performing teams inside companies. It was essentially the same framework that we developed for groups. These 5 factors we talked about in the learning-achieving cycle that is all part of that whole Power of Peers book is definitely applicable to high-performing teams. So how do we bring peer advantage into organizations? And if we do, what is the result of that? So peer innovation really becomes— How do we have people like me who come together to innovate, right? Which the greatest definition I've heard of that is creativity realized, right? Or, you know, it's kind of creativity operationalized. It's actually applying and seeing in the application of this incredible people's ideas and creativity and put to work and how teams can do that. How people come together taking all the tools and leveraging peer advantage in order to come together to create something larger than themselves, to create something that no one individual, you know, would likely be able to do as well. And so I think talking about how we can be better at that, um, I think is really, you know, powerful. We, you know, we see it easily in sports teams, right? We can see one team being better than another. You know, in business, it's not always apparent to us whether our our team is any better than anybody else's team at any other company. Because we don't compete. We don't do that. We don't really have a measure. And so I think providing a framework for people that can help make their team for their purpose and their industry and whatever it is they're looking to create the very best team it can be. Not a prescription, right? But, but a true framework for people to help them be at their best. Is really what, um, you know, this is all about and what can result when you have people working together in a powerful way like that.

And we've talked before a few times, but it's worth revisiting as we talk to people and you clearly in addressing groups of CEOs and all the various meetings that you have attended as a guest speaker, or presenter, and when we ask people to reminisce about a time that they were really, they were on a really effective team, how far back people have to harken is kind of a sad reality.

Yeah, sometimes, and these are literally people who, you know, ballpark average age anywhere from 35 to 65, and when you ask people the question, hey, what's the best team you've ever been part of? And they start talking about Little League Baseball. You know, that really kind of blows your hair back a little bit. Now, for me, I've always felt that there's kind of two sides to that coin, right? On one hand, to your point, sad that that's the team that— however, it's also, I think, kind of amazing when you consider that something like that that was that long ago had such an impact for them. That they will bring that up even today and wax poetic about it as if it were yesterday. And it's really kind of neat to see that when you can become part of a powerful team experience, that you just view that and think, wow, you know, and they'll never forget it. You'll never forget what it was like to have that connection and to win together, to lose together, to get better together, you know, all of those kinds of things. And so I do enjoy that part of that exercise when people, you know, talk about that because hearing them describe their teams. And for some it is true that they may say, and another common answer is the team I'm on right now. And they will talk about that and talk about it with real passion. And that's great stuff. But even everyone recognizes that as good as our team is, we can be better. And it's always the case. In fact, usually the better the team, the more they expect of themselves, the more they want to get better. Individual players who are great players, they all want to be coached. It doesn't matter if it's sports, business, or whatever. They want to be coached. They want to learn. They want to be challenged. So it isn't like, oh yeah, we've got a great team. We got that. You know, it's about how do we continue to raise the bar and have that standard of excellence that we continue to set for ourselves. It has nothing to do with our competitors. Right?

And it's curious to me, the people that hearken back to Little League and childhood stuff, and I've asked a few, I haven't done it as systematically as I probably should. The interesting thing is the dialogue that comes when you engage them about pursuing that or their lack of pursuing that. And, and I've asked a few CEOs in particular and top-level leaders in city government, you know, have you, what have you, have you done anything to pursue that, you know, to try to replicate that? And they're largely stymied. I mean, they're largely, it's, you know, I, it's like I caught lightning in a bottle. I got with this group of buddies and these friends and the neighborhood kids, and we were on this team and we we started having success when we had a great coach. It was just, it was like this organic thing. And I'm purposefully kind of transitioning into what we really were going to talk about today in addition to our announcement, but we're in a whole world of transition. We're in a whole world of what is the new normal. And I'm real curious, your thoughts about just the intentional, purposeful pursuit of can we go back and can we catch that lightning in a bottle again? Just because that was organic, then am I just sitting around the rest of my life waiting for that to happen again? Or are there actions and there's some things, some behaviors that I can engage that can make that happen, or at least give myself much better chance of catching lightning in a bottle again?

Yeah. You know, you brought up a great point where it really starts with just reflection. You know, I mean, it's about asking the question and getting people to think about it, right? Excuse me, because the favorite team someone's ever been on in their life is not a question they're asked every day, yet the team comes into mind usually immediately. But then the important part of the conversation is to press them on what made the team great and continue to ask questions about it, drill down just a little bit, and all of a sudden all those things start emerging and they start writing down what it was. And they— and the reality is that it was a great team, great experience. I know how I felt about being part of it, but I've not given it always the thought that might allow me to think and allow me to replicate that on another team with another group of people in a different environment entirely. Right. So it gets people thinking, um, you know, about that and asking themselves, huh, am I being the kind of leader and kind of coach I need to be if that's my role on the team, right? Or am I providing the kind of environment, the kind of context that allows people to be at their best and really flourish? Am I doing the kinds of things that encourage and reward collaboration? So there's a lot of things that start coming into play that get people thinking about it. And so I think when we consider the transition we're dealing with right now— in fact, I just got off, as you know. So here I am in Southern California. And on one hand, there's a really good— I mean, as much as I love to travel and as much as I love to visit so many amazing cities around the country and around the world, there's something to be said, too, for having had a few months where I don't have to do that. You know, I can have a Zoom call and really try to connect and make it, you know, super interactive with everybody. But yeah, it's— when you don't have that travel experience, it's a different connection for sure, you know.

As we look at the landscape, and you mentioned Twitter and a number of companies that— and those high-tech companies tended to embrace some remote work, but there were, as you and I both know, CEOs that were staunchly advocating, if there's not butts in seats and cubicles, then there's no work being done, even though we know that that's completely not true. But yesterday, just in prep for today's show, Leo and I were discussing just some of the landscape up to and including the way offices are constructed. And, you know, we went from cubicles to this kind of an open concept, and you're sitting here surrounded by people, and yet most everybody's got earbuds or headphones on, kind of isolated, even though they're surrounded physically by people. Back in the old norm. And now we are, we are isolated physically, but I don't know. It's, it's, it's an interesting, it's an interesting world. It's going to be interesting how companies adjust and do make this transition. And clearly there are going to be companies that aren't, you know, yesterday Leo and I were discussing these restaurants whose business model is kind of a buffet. Well, that's, you know, there are a number of them have already bit the dust and more are probably going to. So, I mean, as a leader, Leo, what are some things that top-level leaders could be and maybe should be thinking about as they try to navigate the transition? And it's probably, I don't know, maybe in some cases it's less about navigating the transition as it is forging the path that you want it to be.

Yeah. And I want to, you know, finish answering your question before too, because given what I was about to say, which is now reflective in the fact that I completely lost my train of thought there for a moment, was the meeting I had this morning, because I don't have to travel, was that I had to get up at 4:15 because the meeting was at 8:00 AM, but it was in Atlanta. But of course, being in Southern California, it was a 5:00 AM deal. So between—

That's why you lost your train of thought.

Yeah, between I've been up for, you know, God knows how long now and had about 8 thoughts running through my head at the same time. I'm like, oh no. So, but no, but it— Good that you're here. And it, well, it comes down to, you know, that in the, this question comes down to that. Like a bit like we talked about the teams, right? It's about reflection, but it's also about not just reflecting after it's all over. It's about trying to do it in real time. So it's making notes about what you're experiencing right now and, and what you're learning. What are you learning about your company? What are you learning about your teams? What are you learning about how prepared you were and how prepared, better prepared you might be next time? How are you going to be thanking your people? For the incredible sacrifices they're making because as they're dealing with a lot of their own personal challenges, they're at the same time, they're, you know, continuing to, I mean, do this incredible work, you know, in terms of driving productivity, you know, up in so many organizations. So I think that for leaders asking those questions, thinking about those things, you know, in real time and being able to capture everything becomes really, really, really important. And so, yeah, I think that's—

are you finding, are you finding, are you finding that the CEOs are mostly reflective, reflective enough, you know, to be able to forge forward and whatever that transition looks like for their companies?

Yeah.

I mean, it seems to me that at this stage of the game, they are I know for the first couple of weeks there was just sheer panic and deer-in-headlights kind of stuff, but it seems to me the last 6 weeks or so, I'm finding people very reflective.

Yeah, so I think for a lot of CEOs, the reason they're in the job is because they have the capacity to do that. They can deal with what's in the moment, but at the same time, they know that they've got to look ahead and they've got to really be thinking about the kinds of things that will make and keep the organization healthy and all the decisions that will be— need to be made to do that. And that involves kind of thinking about a lot of the what-if scenarios and considering all those things. So yeah, I think as I speak with leaders, and many of whom, you know, may have mentioned this, you know, in the last show when I talked about how when leaders were thinking about productivity being up in their companies, they quickly pivoted to this idea of employee burnout, for example, right? What do you do? You know, people are cranking away and they're doing this and they're hunched over their desks at home or at their kitchen table or whatever, and they're driving, driving, driving. There's got to be a point where, you know, that starts to go the other way. There's the feeling of isolation, right? There's the feeling also of feeling, you know, which is I think a little bit different, feeling invisible. You know, I mean, it's hard enough to sometimes, I think, for people at companies who may be in a middle manager type position to feel like they can get noticed. Well, now, now they're feeling like, wow, that's, that becomes really, really difficult. So how do we create that level of connectedness, not with just with one another, but with the entire organization? Because I think the, the chance of our thinking getting even more siloed as opposed to more systems thinking, more enterprise thinking, more industry, more, you know, bigger thinking really could get lost in a hurry. And that could be really detrimental, I think, for a lot of organizations. So I think there's going to be some real challenges even if we're seeing productivity up right now. I think the CEOs who are also seeing that, reflecting on that, but also considering the what-ifs and to address it from the perspective of understanding what the core issues are that may be impacting productivity, right? As you know, I wrote an article for CEO World magazine that I posted today that speaks to when in doubt, do the opposite. And it plays on the episode from Seinfeld where George discovers that maybe his whole life has not turned out the way he had hoped. And that if he just actually acted against all of his instincts, that it did the opposite of everything, that things would work out better. And for him, you know, it actually did for a lot of that episode. However, um, you know, and the point was not to, you know, suggest that to people, but, um, sometimes, and just all of us as humans, let alone CEOs, we want to feel like we're in, quote, control, right? Well, I'd like to think if there's anything the pandemic has taught us, is there's a lot of things that we're not in control of in this world and in our lives or whatever. And it isn't so much— people can have influence. They can even have power. But control? Not always so much. Thinking about, um, and so if you're, so if you're a CEO, you're used to summoning everyone to the office every day, right? It was so one of the stories I told in the article, this literally happened, where a guy had all his people, he was president, right? He gets a couple hundred people out in the parking lot in the late afternoon, it was cold, and he's speaking to everyone and he looks and says, see all these cars? See how they have all headlights? Right? And people look at him like— well, you know, he quickly got to the point that leaving at 5 o'clock, probably not a great idea. You know, there's lights in your car. If it gets dark, that's okay. And so everyone's being encouraged, right, you know, to be there. And the idea was if he can see everyone there, see everyone working, if he can look out his window and see there's still cars in the parking lot, right, he knows that everything's happening. So if you're that type of CEO, After a couple of months of not being able to see that, of being the type of person who really trusts what you see and is completely suspicious of what you don't, then now I don't care where productivity is, right? So if whether it's the same or God forbid, if it starts dipping a little bit, so you're either going to get antsy because you can't see everyone, or the first thing you're going to do if accountability starts dropping is you're going to implement these draconian measures for accountability, right? For people and how they have to check in and what they got to do, which could create a whole level of mistrust that is going to destroy everything you've kind of built during this thing, right? So here you are addressing the wrong situations, right? The wrong problems with— it's like we said, it's having the right answer to the wrong question, right? And that becomes huge. And it becomes a really difficult— you know, situation for CEOs to fight that instinct. So the whole point of the article was that's when you need to just do the opposite. And I think the— one of the final illustration points I made was for someone to take a ping pong ball in their— between their thumb and forefinger and just gently hold it there and realize this thing's going nowhere. Everybody's good. It's perfectly comfortable and all that. If you're the type of person who believes the tighter grip I have, the greater control I have. What happens with that ping pong ball if you squeeze it is basically one of two things. It squirts out of your fingers at 100 miles an hour, or you're going to crush it. And when you do, it's now wrecked forever, right? The ball's completely unusable. So I'd like to hope that this is a real time, and to think about it now, that how do I combat maybe tendencies toward control? How do I make sure that if productivity starts dipping or things start happening, that I start looking for the real source of what, um, that productivity drop is all about, as opposed to coming up and trying to implement solutions that really have nothing to do with anything.

And the podcast, our hope is to provide a solution, maybe not the solution, but at least a solution to that very problem, to the leader whose worldview is you need to be here until it's dark before you go home, that there are, there are a ton of people achieving some extraordinary results that aren't doing it the way you do it. And it doesn't necessarily mean that the way that you're doing it is wrong, but boy, our minds are greatly expanded, and I think our abilities greatly enhanced when we at least consider another point of view and another approach. And so as we're transitioning, as we are transitioning the podcast, and me personally, listen, I befriended Leo, and that we've chronicled that story, and I won't rehash it, but 4 years or so ago, it was strictly to evangelize this cause, evangelize the fact that we need each other. And if we will be intentional and purposeful to surround ourselves with people that are safe and, and his first book, The Power of Peers, indicates these, these 5 factors that make up really effective groups and teams. And we can apply a lot of that to just us as individuals, And for me, it really stems down to how badly do we want to improve? How badly do we want to make a bigger difference with our, with our own influence, with our own leadership? Even if you don't have a title, you know, there's been a whole lot written over the past 20 years. You know, we don't need titles for leadership. It really is about our ability to influence one another and during the pandemic. I mean, I've caught myself, I've caught myself crying more than once over something that didn't have anything to do with leadership. It may have involved some little kid, you know, but all these things pile up and they really, they really make us who we are. And in spite of all of our differences, we're not so different. You know, there's an awful lot of us that, that have a lot in common. And so that's my goal and my hope, my personal hope for transitioning. I want to give you the last word, Leo, and speak a little bit about your work and about the heart stuff behind it that's really driving you and what you would like our listeners and our viewers, our audience— because you're in this with us, even though this sounds like a conversation and a dialogue that that you may not feel included. We want to do a better job of that. We want you to absolutely feel included because, well, without you, there's— we're just two guys talking, which is powerful for us, but we want it to be something more.

Yeah, it's like the leader with no one following is just out taking a walk, right? The old John Maxwell quote. But yeah, you know, I just I feel like I've had the good fortune, and I think a lot of people can relate to this too, to have been part of really good teams in my life, to be part of really great groups, and to understand their value and understand their power. And I also understand what it's like to feel isolated and feel alone and dealing with challenges on my own, feeling like I don't have any help. Obviously I did, but maybe for some whatever reason, I kept it to myself and had to struggle with it and deal with it. Um, only oftentimes to find that when I finally did confide in someone, either whatever challenge I had built up in my mind, I had built up to be A, way more than it was, or B, to find out that as I was thinking of it in terms of, well, here's this challenge. I've got option A or option B, and I'd be wrangling with and struggling with that. And what happens when you talk with other people who are willing to listen and can offer different perspectives? I find out this is option C, D, and E, right? And this is where I think there's incredible value to this. But— and it starts with having great conversations. And this is why having Craig Weber be our first guest on the show next week, who talks about conversational capacity— he wrote a book a number of years ago called Conversational Capacity. His latest book is called Influence and Action. And there is no better person out there when it comes to giving us the tools to be able to start a dialogue and the ability to converse, if you will, that can help us build great teams and I think is the perfect person to kick off this podcast to talk about conversations and giving people the tools going forward. So really excited for him to be here with all of us next week, as you suggested. And, you know, so yeah, let's have at it. Let's get everyone involved. Let's get everyone You know, thinking about the value of one another and how, you know, we can just access that to our benefit and to everyone else's.

We appreciate you listening and we appreciate you watching, uh, the final episode of What Anyone Can Do. It will now become Peer Novation. Uh, to find out how to subscribe and to find out more about Leo's work, Visit the website peerinnovation.co. That's P-E-E-R-N-O-V-A-T-I-O-N.co. Peerinnovation, just like it sounds, dot co. And you could subscribe and find out more about Leo's work and all the stuff that we're up to and trying to do. We appreciate you listening, and Lord willing, we will see you next week with Craig Webber, our first guest on Peer Innovation.

You bet.

To learn more about our show and what we do, to submit questions questions to us and to subscribe to What Anyone Can Do Podcast, please visit our website, whatanyonecandodo.com. What Anyone Can Do Podcast is hosted by Leo Battari and me, Randy Cantrell. Music provided by Kevin MacLeod is Vibe Ace, licensed under Creative Commons by Attribution 3.0 license. Thanks for watching or listening. We hope you'll share the podcast.