What Anyone Can Do: Leo & Randy On Accountability (1049)

Welcome to the What Anyone Can Do podcast with Leo Battari and me, Randy Cantrell. This show picks up where our previous show, You're the Peer, left off, highlighting the simple truth that who you surround yourself with matters, and that if we enlist the support of others, give back to those who give to us, and pay it forward for the next generation, we can do anything. Author and keynote speaker Leo Battari and I talk with a diverse group of thought leaders who will share stories, and insights that will help you succeed in business and in life. How? By doing the things anyone can do, but most of us never will. Welcome back to another episode of What Anyone Can Do, the podcast. He is Leo Bottari, coming to you from Southern California. My name is Randy Cantrell. I'm here in Dallas-Fort Worth, Texas. And you just, you wrote a piece, Leo, in CEO World. I encourage everybody to follow Leo. You can find links in the show notes to this and probably most every episode to Leo's work over there at CEO World. Good piece. I'll let you make the introduction to kind of the idea.

CEO World is great, by the way. That CEO World magazine has a lot of really good stuff. They've got contributors from all over the place. They're incredibly great to work with. And just a kind of a shout out to them too, because, you know, I just really enjoy what they do. And they— and if you don't have to be a CEO to read it, you can be an executive, I think, at any level that not only gets all the leadership lessons and other things that come for CEOs, but everything about travel or other type of things that I think are not just affordable for CEOs either, you know, but just really good insights on a lot of different subject areas that I think people would enjoy. But yeah, this week's article actually was about an accountability model that the former CEO of Vistage, Rafael Pastor, who was not the one that I co-authored the book with. Obviously that was Leon Shapiro, but the CEO prior to him. Um, and I worked with Rafael for a number of years, wonderful guy. And I remember, uh, when I was thinking about interviews for that book, you know, and I would imagine a topic that I felt like I wanted to talk to that person about and then go deep on that topic as opposed to, you know, he's CEO of Vistage, so I could have asked him 1,000 different questions in all different areas. But, you know, I think with every interview, I just wanted it to be very specific and very purposeful. And for him, I thought he was always really good about accountability and making people feel that accountability wasn't a weapon, but that it was something to help you and help the organization, you know, realize your potential and do better and do well. So when I asked him about CEO peer groups, when we were writing The Power of Peers, and I asked him about accountability, I wanted him to think about why would anyone want to, especially a CEO, right, who has accountability 6 ways to Sunday, right, want to invite more accountability in their life? Like, what does that look like? Why would anyone want to do that? And, you know, so I kind of prepped him a little bit with that. But when we got together, he actually brought a little model that he created that I was really just impressed. Obviously, I knew he could do something like that. That wasn't really the issue, but the fact that he did, you know, that he really spent time and he was very thoughtful about it and really went through. And what I felt from the Power of Peers, when you consider all of the subjects that are covered in this idea about how and why These peer groups for CEOs and business leaders work so well. I always felt that one of the, you know, for lack of a better way to express this, kind of under-talked-about portions of that book was the model that he created. So I wanted to bring that forward in the CEO World article because I felt that that was a good venue for it, and certainly I think the right audience. And the model was really based on this idea that a CEO has 3 levels of accountability that are already kind of foisted on them, right? One of them he referred to as enforced accountability. This is your board of directors, for example, that you may report to as one example of that, where, you know, you're agreeing on, you know, all kinds of things with regard to metrics and goals and what the future is going to look like, and you are expected to deliver on that from a body that has governance over you effectively. You know, the second one he regarded as expectant. He was looking for— Raphael loves alliteration, so he's looking for all these E words, you know. So the idea of expectant or expected accountability, which is, I would give an example of that being like your employees. You know, you make a certain promise to your employees about what they're going to deliver, what you're going to deliver for them, what you're going to, what they're going to be paid and how you're going to develop them and work with them and all of that. And that, that is very much an audience that not only, you know, most people think that all the employees are just accountable to the CEO, but the CEO in many respects obviously feels very accountable you know, to the employees to meet promises that he or she, you know, has for them. The third one he described I thought was kind of funny. He referred to this as elusive, and this was customers. He always felt like customers can be a bit fickle. You know, one minute you've got the solution that everyone loves, next minute your competitor comes up with a little something and boop, you know, they're off your plan or your product onto something else. This idea of being accountable to your customers really involved staying in close touch and really having your finger on the pulse of what, you know, the needs and wants were there so that you were constantly delivering on your promise to them as a company. So what he finally was describing there, he said, think about those three and the fact that those three are just inescapable from an accountability standpoint for the CEO. But when you look at what he described as empathetic accountability, that in effect is where you go and you sit with other CEOs who know exactly what it's like to sit in that chair and have to make decisions that have the whole organization in consideration, right? It's not just from a marketing perspective or legal or HR or whatever. But, you know, considering all aspects of doing what's right for the organization and keeping it healthy and growing and moving forward, that if you would invite that type of accountability, there's a dynamic there that you can't get from either your board or your employees or your customers when it comes to— he said it's just priceless, you know, and the value of that is extraordinary. And So a lot of the model we talked about really focused on that. And I think in many respects, Rafael's model makes a really great case for when you've got these 3 accountabilities that, you know, you're accountable to them no matter what, this 4th one can help you deliver on the other 3 so much more effectively. And if you have the, I think, the courage to invite that into your role as a CEO, then it can make a huge difference.

Do you find that CEOs often battle the possibility of that? I mean, does that even seem like a reasonable prospect, do you think, if there is such a thing as an average CEO?

Well, I know that when you look at the number of CEOs that participate in groups like the ones we're we're talking about, it's minuscule when you look at, you know, I mean, this was the whole point really of writing The Power of Peers back in 2016 is there's this resource that is so unbelievably effective and yet too few people use it. You know, the idea of sitting in front of another group of CEOs and in a confidential setting even in a confidential setting, being in a situation where you may have to admit you don't know everything, or you've got problems you need help with, or something like that, that you can't go to your board with oftentimes, or you can't go to your employees with, or whatever. This is where, you know, you go to get that help and get that empathetic accountability that Rafael spoke of in his model. And it's stunning to me that— I mean, I get why they don't do it, you know, I guess in many respects. But it's such a miss. It is such a miss that more CEOs don't want to invite that level of involvement from other experienced people, and they feel for whatever reason that they've just got to go it alone and, you know, not let anyone know that maybe they haven't got the whole world figured out, as if we all don't recognize that already anyway.

Well, and sadly, there's that proverbial, "The emperor has no clothes," and all of the adages that we've heard about the yes-men mentality. And people don't want to be challenged. But I think, for me, the difficulty for a CEO is somebody who can challenge, but it's in a non-threatening way. And the big word that continues to leap out to me when we talk about this empathetic group that can help CEOs, business leaders. You know, the big thing that keeps coming to the forefront for me is safety. And I just think, in my experience, and even talking to people about the prospect of coming to a group like that, it's just awfully hard sometimes to cross, get them to mentally cross a bridge that Yeah, it's absolutely possible to put yourself in a safe environment where you can do that.

Well, one of the things that came up recently, in fact, I just hosted, or not hosted so much as led, two workshops this week. And, you know, we were just talking about this very topic. Around accountability and around CEOs, and it's just, it's, people have a difficult time with it. They, their experience with it as employees is that it was the thing that always just made them feel like they were playing defense. And again, when you look at the other areas of accountability, even that, you know, around a CEO that are, that are like those inescapable ones we talk about, um, that has to make you feel like you're playing defense every once in a while. And the whole point of this is that it's designed not to make you feel that way. And when I was talking to several of the groups, we talked about the importance and the value of trusting the intent of others. And we get into this a little bit, I think, when we were talking about politics last week. You know, this idea that even if it doesn't, you know, we all do our best, right? We're in the context of a conversation. Everything may not come out perfectly, you know, in that moment. We might misspeak, we might say something that comes across a little harshly. Yet when you're in a group like that and you're among other CEOs that you've come to know and trust, This is where trusting the intent becomes so crucial in the accountability front, because you have to know that that person is only challenging you because they care about you, period. That's their intent. It's not to show you up. It's not to look superior. It's not to do anything like that. It's all about, I am trying to help you do basically what you've expressed that you want for yourself. Nothing more than that. Yeah. You know, we've talked about this in the past. These guys don't should one another. They don't talk about, they don't talk to one another. You should do this and you should do that. And I'm holding you accountable for this. That doesn't happen. They get a lot of experiences, insights, feedback, and a lot of things. And then, um, you know, I think a good facilitator of a group like that will simply ask, hey, what have you heard? That resonates with you and what do you, how do you think you're going to move forward? And that person will talk about the things that really rang true with them. Here's how I plan to proceed. Here's what I want to do. And great. And that's, and to the extent there may be a bit of follow-up on that, not only from an accountability standpoint, like, hey, how did that work out? Because we all want to know. But it's also a learning moment for everyone. Um, month, 2 months, 3 months down the road as these things play out when, um, you know, people invariably run into things that they didn't expect. And it's nice to kind of inform people about what little, uh, turns in the road kind of came your way that, uh, sure.

You didn't want culture. Culture isn't helping us at all. I mean, just this week, there's been a lot of brouhaha, at least— well, I assume all over the United States, especially where there are NBA teams. You know, the general manager of the Houston Rockets, they, they have an exhibition game, a preseason game over in China, and he sends out a tweet because of these protests that are happening in Hong Kong and feeling like they're kind of being oppressed. And it creates a firestorm for the NBA. And, you know, the commissioner of the NBA comes out, and I mean, they're dancing because presumably there's $900 million in revenue that's at risk now if you hack off, you know, the Communist Party in mainland China. But then today or late yesterday, Steph Curry and some other athletes who are in the association, players in the NBA, say, you know, they're not prepared to make a comment. They're still looking at it and studying it. And then there's this firestorm of judgment on them because they just don't— they don't come out. And sure, you know, so a person can't even tap the brakes and say, listen, I don't know enough to comment, so I'm still kind of Assessing and learning. And, you know, there's no tolerance even for that. So it's no wonder. It's certainly, to me, it's not shocking at all that somebody—

because people make assumptions about why they're doing that. They don't know, but they're going to make assumptions about why they're doing that. And this goes to filling information gaps that we do so poorly.

And, you know, so yeah, so it's no wonder that, that CEOs worldwide feel the pressure to— I mean, they're going to be judged. Okay, maybe it's not to the public scope and scale of a Steph Curry or some star in the NBA, but every leader has their detractors.

So then the question is, if you know that you've got the accountabilities we talked about and you're going to be publicly judged in a very big way, then why in the world wouldn't you take advantage of going into a private setting with other CEOs in confidence where you can pressure test your thinking, your decision-making, um, with other people who can ask you the kind of hard questions that you're not going to get anywhere else. I mean, right. I mean, just, you know, so that's what kind of eludes me in terms of Why, when you're running a company and when you want to grow it, um, that you wouldn't absolutely be, sign me up for that, you know?

Yeah. I mean, who better, who better to dry run something past than other CEOs who—

I think what's interesting is people, I don't think, and I think for a lot of people in terms of joining a group, being part of a group, because it's not, I hire a consulting firm, they give me a report. It's not like I hire a coach where we develop a, like, a development plan for us and we do whatever. It's not like going to Harvard Business School or Stanford for executive education programs where you actually get a credential along with learning, you know, with other CEOs in that piece of it. So when there's no credential and when there are not some of these other things, that are clear-cut, what you're basically stuck with saying to someone is, we need you to go in a room, depending on who's running the peer group you're talking about, from 4 to 8 hours on a given day, once a month or so, and you guys are just gonna talk about stuff. I mean, really, you know that, and the CEO's like, okay, really? Yeah. And by the way, if there's, pick a number, 8, 12, 15, 16 people in the group, how much time are we going to be getting to talk about me? That doesn't feel right. There's any number of things that call into question for them the value proposition. Yet at the same time, it is one of those things that you really have to say to someone, you need to really participate in one, one time to understand what the experience is all about. And I wouldn't say it's for everyone by any means. I mean, if you're the type of person who is going to go and think that you know more than everyone else in the room, or you just want to, you know, sit and be judgmental of what everyone else is doing and what's going on, or you think you're the boss of that room in the same way you're the CEO of your company, well, good luck with that. You know, So those groups are not for you. However, I think for more progressive CEOs who are really looking to lead companies, especially as things grow ever more complex over the next 5, 10, 20 years, I think getting a little help to do that from other people who share in your job is not particularly terrible idea. And it is the kind of accountability that I think a CEO— and by the way, you know, we're kind of talking CEOs because it was the subject of the CEO World magazine article, was I was specific to that audience— but I think for any business leader where you can come together with others who share some of the similar challenges that you have, what you can gain from one another is so extraordinary. I mean, it just truly is. And so, yeah, accountability is kind of funny. During these workshops, it's been kind of a big deal. Not only was it talked about in terms of accountability relating to, okay, did I do what I said I wanted to do for myself type of stuff and following up with the group and doing that, but I think even more importantly, there's an accountability about how you show up in the room every month, right? Am I bringing my A-game, you know? And probably thinking about that more on that personal responsibility front that we've talked about than accountability, right? But that being prepared, showing up, being engaged, being there to learn, not to judge, you know, exhibiting the kind of behaviors that make you the best very best individual member you can be, knowing that everyone else around that table is giving that very same effort. And when you've got, like I said, 8, 12, 16 members in a room, you're going to get that ROI as many-fold as there are bodies there, because that's kind of how that delivers. And I do think it takes a lot of courage to do it. I think it There's a fair bit of generosity involved as well. But the, you know, the benefits and the outcomes are just so extraordinary. And so, like I said, when I go back to The Power of Peers, the whole reason we wrote that book was really to create a narrative around that, to talk about peer advantage, to talk about how when we are more selective, strategic, and structured With regard to how we engage others, some amazing things can happen. And I thought that the model that Rafael contributed to that book got less attention than it should have. And so that was kind of the subject of the article and why I wanted to get to spend more time with us today kind of chatting about that, because I think it gets to the heart of what the value proposition is all about. And maybe something that if a CEO is listening to this today or has senior leaders in their company who for themselves and for some of their top people to really think about becoming, you know, part of a group where they can engage others. And really, I think the learning is extraordinary and how it helps in terms of company performance is, is even that much better.

Well, I think everybody's got some example, probably multiple examples in their life where it really paid off for them. I mean, so you've written two books. And so if we go back to the latest book, you know, What Anyone Can Do, if you're like most authors. And, you know, I went through journalism school, so I, I know enough about it to know the power, let's say, of just a deadline and people to help you hit the marks that you have to hit. I haven't written a book yet and may never, but you know, that those kind of things that bring that book to fruition is a, is a real high degree of accountability that is absolutely to your favor. And I'm thinking of friends that I've known who've lost a lot of weight and who went to someplace that had some type of a peer group reinforcement thing. And the longer they kept the weight off, they knew that the odds were that they could keep it off. And after 2 years, I mean, they're in, you know, they're in because they've seen the power of it. And I'm supposing that most all of us have got stories like that. So it seems to me that at some level we get it, we understand it. I don't quite understand fully the reticence, you know, to have it when it's absolutely to, as you said, it's to our favor.

I think the weight example is a really good one. So I would say if I were to go back It's been a while now, but if I were to go back 5 years, I was probably 20 or 25 pounds heavier than I am now. I knew it at the time. I didn't like it. I was upset about it, you know, every day. I didn't do anything about it. And it's funny how— I don't know what the psychology around this is because it wasn't like anything drastically changed or there was some event or anything like that. But the bottom line was there was one day where I just woke up and I said, starting today, we're going to start doing something about this. And so, you know, that's what I did. And it was just kind of a daily thing and a daily thing that I've ever since paid attention to. And, you know, I took the time and gradually and patiently, I like to think, lost, you know, the weight. And I don't expect, quite frankly, to ever put it back on because first of all, I know how difficult it is to take it off to begin with. But now I just, I really pay attention to it and I pay attention, you know, to, um, you know, what I eat and what I'm doing and my activity levels and all those kinds of things. And because I know I feel that much better, I feel more confident. I feel, you know, everything feels better for me, I would say. You know, and I think we all have these things for ourselves, but my point really was one minute I was doing nothing about it and was somehow just, you know, happy with the misery of it or something. I don't know. And then until I wasn't, and I don't know quite what tripped that, or, um, but I think there's got to be a point in time, you know, when if you look at like John Kotter stuff and he talks about sense of urgency and crisis and how we respond to different things, you know, when we're not necessarily inspired to do so, but when we're motivated to do so. And, but I don't know that that was the case for me, and I don't think it has to be. I've never believed it has to be the case for anyone, whether they're thinking of joining a peer group or they're thinking of just taking on any goal that we've talked about. I mean, What Anyone Can Do is very much all about that, right? I mean, You know, it's the recognition that if I— this is why I think the CEO peer group thing works so well, because you're going to take something that privately you know is a problem. Now I'm going to make it public, then I'm going to enlist the support of others to help me rectify that. And when I do that, I will do those small little things over time that anyone can do And next thing you know, whether it's losing the weight or whatever it happens to be, you will get there if you do one step at a time and you have a support system around you to help you make that happen. I don't think running a company is much different, you know, in that regard. I mean, I think having that support and having that little level of accountability and that little level of personal pride to say, I don't want to, I don't want to be known for, I don't want to fail at this. Why? There's no need. For me to fail at this, you know?

And you've mentioned before the value in, in, in many of the meetings where you have, you have witnessed it firsthand, the, not just the pressure testing of an idea, but the scenario, running through scenarios, possible scenarios that a CEO may not be facing today, but very possibly could be facing down the road and to be able to go through those exercises, that's, that's worth the price of admission.

Yeah. I asked him to, um, to keep lists of what-if questions. Yeah. Like, what if I were disrupted by an unlikely competitor? What if my biggest competitor was bought by a multinational corporation? Is that good for me? Bad for me? What if I lost my CFO tomorrow? What is that? How do you prepare for those things? Number one. But you know that if I'm, that's an issue for me, everything I just brought up is an issue for everybody around that table. So imagine being able to have a conversation where we either openly work that topic together, or I come and say, hey, if I lost my CFO tomorrow, here's, here's how I'm prepared for that event. Now all of you tell me, what am I missing? What am I leaving out here? What am I not thinking about? And they will fill in those blanks for you because that's what people who bring different perspectives to the table are really, really good at. Um, and you know, I just think that kind of thing is valuable.

Yeah, I do too. It was a good article. We're going to link people up to it, uh, in the show notes and to, uh, other, other pieces that Leo has written. And yeah, highly recommend that you check out not just Leo's stuff, but all the stuff that's over there. @ceoworld. LeoBottari.com is the website, L-E-O-B-O-T-T-A-R-Y dot com. And you can keep abreast of everything that's happening in Leo's world. Any parting shots?

And you can get the link to join Randy's group.

Yeah, there's that.

There's that.

Yeah.

We're talking about joining groups, talking about, you know, take this as your message to say, you know what, I think I'm going to give that a try. I think I need to send Randy an email or give him a call. And need to, uh, to get rolling with that.

So yeah, and mine, I'm just aimed at SMB owners. So if you are a US-based, and the only reason I'm biased for US-based is I don't want to deal with a bunch of time zones other than the US time zones, but any SMB owners, you can check it out at thepeeradvantage.com. It was a good article and I highly recommend to people to read The Power of Peers as well as Leo's latest book, anyone can do, and we'll link all that up in the show notes as well. I'll give you the last word, Leo.

Hey, you know, my daughter lives in DC. Go Nationals! Great, great win last night in the 10th inning. Unbelievable.

And apologies to those of you in Atlanta who had to suffer that. Oh, it's horrible, that horrible first inning. I mean, it's really bad when you don't get out of the first inning. Yeah, one of these days we'll have to do a show on The value of amnesia, the value of a really short memory. Here in Dallas, Clayton Kershaw is a Dallas guy, plays for the Dodgers and helped give up some of the leads. So Dallas has kind of been mourning poor Clayton, who's had a real difficult time. But you think about a guy like that, off topic here, making gazillions of dollars, and by all accounts, everybody thinks, man, terribly successful. I don't know that he'll ever get over that. I mean—

Before the Red Sox finally won a World Series after 86 years in 2004, I remember going to a Sox game. It was probably like in the, you know, sometime in the '90s. And Sox had lost. We were walking out of the park, and the kid was— he was hanging his head. And a guy, as we're all walking out, everyone's in close proximity, walking little baby steps out of the stadium. He said to the kid, hey, was this your first baseball game? He said, yeah. He says, welcome to a lifetime of disappointment.

A real optimist.

Well, you know, generations of people lived through the Red Sox.

How could you feel differently?

It was horrible. So yeah, good stuff. Yes, there's a show.

Yeah, well, I'll root for the Nationals on your behalf.

So it's all good. I think the Astros could be tough. I think the Astros— yeah, Astros gonna get by Tampa Bay today, but I think the Astros are—

yeah, the pitching's really tough to beat down in Houston. Yeah, it's really strong.

All right, have a good week.

Thanks for listening, everybody. We'll see you next time. To learn more about our show and what we do, to submit questions to us, and to subscribe to What Anyone Can Do Podcast, please visit our website, whatanyonecandodo.com. What Anyone Can Do Podcast is hosted by Leo Battari and me, Randy Cantrell. Music provided by Kevin MacLeod is Vibe Ace, licensed under Creative Commons by Attribution 3.0 license. Thanks for watching or listening. We hope you'll share the podcast.