What Anyone Can Do: On Interviewing (1052)

Welcome to the What Anyone Can Do podcast with Leo Battari and me, Randy Cantrell. This show picks up where our previous show, You're the Peer, left off, highlighting the simple truth that who you surround yourself with matters, and that if we enlist the support of others, give back to those who give to us, and pay it forward for the next generation, we can do anything. Author and keynote speaker Leo Battari and I talk with a diverse group of thought leaders who will share stories and insights that will help you succeed in business and in life. How? By doing the things anyone can do, but most of us never will.

Well, welcome to another episode of What Anyone Can Do. My name is Leo Bottari. As you well know, our other guest host Randy Cantrell won't be joining us today, but I do have a special guest host, Cecilia Hauser, who will be joining us today, and we'll actually be spending time interviewing Ildiko Zan. Now, all of us right now are very much involved in working with students at Rutgers University as part of an e-portfolio course. And in that, we're talking a lot about personal branding, LinkedIn profiles, resumes, your own— building your own website, for example. And many of these tools, of course, kind of, you know, touch on this idea of how do we, you know, break through the process of elimination that oftentimes goes with many people, you know, applying for a certain position. Then it gets to a point where we basically get invited to participate in an interview. Could be a phone interview, could be video, could be in person, and that's where we really enter the process of selection. And we really want to spend our time today both for the benefit of students and for people, whether they are entering the workforce for the very first time in a professional sense or they've been in the workforce for a while, But I think this whole topic of job interviews and interviewing and what's— what are best practices around that today and how we prepare for that is really going to be where we're going to spend our time and what we'll focus on today. But before we get started on that, of course, I want Dr. Cecilia Hauser to introduce yourself first, and then, um, Ildi, I'd love for you to follow. Would be great. Thank you.

Thanks, Leo, for the invite to be able to participate in this. You and I have worked together at Rutgers and prior to that at Seton Hall, and so this is a wonderful opportunity for us to get together and begin to think about how we enrich and share experiences with students, with people in the workforce, everyone that has been touched obviously by your two books and and by some of our work and Ildi's work as well. So a great educational opportunity. As the audience may or may not know, I'm a principal with Korn Ferry, and I have been in the leadership space, the leadership development space, perhaps for more years than I care to admit. First with the Center for Creative Leadership, and then now with Korn Ferry. The opportunity to share those experiences and talents with our students and with others who are on my LinkedIn, network is a great opportunity, so thanks.

Hi everyone, um, hi everyone, I'm Ildi and I'm actually the assistant director of student services for careers at the School of Communication and Information, and I have the great pleasure of working with Leo and Cecilia this semester on their ePortfolio class, and I'm very excited to be here today and I'm very grateful to be asked to share some of our tips or discussion points when I work with students about interviewing. My background is global human resources, and I've been a career counselor for the last almost 7 years. So I see graduate students, undergraduate students, so I see a whole spectrum of different kind of questions. And the good news is that typically it's— Very similar questions and the, and the, the, the techniques or kind of like the, the basic point behind interviewing hasn't really changed in the last couple of years. The focus is still really more on how do we get to know you as a candidate and how do we measure whether you would be a good fit for our organization or not. And so that hasn't really changed. That's the good news. But yes, interviewing does change or is getting to the phase where we are going to start seeing more and more changes as to how we do the interview selection. But the purpose hasn't really changed.

So you brought up a great point, I think, with regard to it isn't so much about being in an interview at that stage of the game, proving that you can kind of— that you have the skills to do the job. Correct? Isn't it much more about whether you would be a good fit, that you'd want to be the kind of person that they want to work with. Would that be fair to say?

Absolutely. Whenever I work with students, the first question I get is, like, so what should I focus on? And generally what I say is that just focus on having a great conversation. That's your job. When you feel like you're, you're actually having a good conversation, that generally means that you're getting along with the people who you're going to be working in the future with. So that means that you're fitting in, you're hitting the right points, you're saying pretty much what they are expecting you to say. So the minute there is a lot more focus on certain aspect of your, of your discussion, then that kind of shows a little bit as to like what are the things that they are looking for, what are the, the main focus points within the interview. So for example, if they are asking you a lot more about a certain behavior then that's probably an important component of the interviews. So we are assessing— whenever we are putting together interviews, we are assessing a number of different behavioral skills and just skill set as well. So, so all of— or most of the questions are going to be formulated around those skill sets. And so typically those skill sets kind of reflect the company culture as well.

I'd like to build on something you said, that number one on the skill set— and that'll be, that'll be second question— but it has always been our philosophy that not only is the company interviewing you, but you're interviewing the organization. And so as an interviewee, any advice you have for thinking about that, including prep? And then the second question is, as you're thinking about focusing on a skill set, being able to discern from the questions what's really important to them. Any advice on both of those, both of those questions?

Yeah, absolutely. So true. This is your chance to actually interview the organization as well and see if this is a good fit for you or not. So generally what happens is that they will give you an in right at the beginning of the interviews. That hasn't really changed. The question is always pretty much the same: tell me about yourself. So this is your chance to kind of like shine, and, and this is— this was created, this question was created so that any interviewee who enters into an unknown environment would feel good about themselves. Pretty much everybody likes to talk about themselves. They pretty much know what they would like to highlight. So this is a really good question, and it has been very popular, and I don't think it's gonna go anywhere. So it's a good way to kind of like just focus on, on yourself a little bit. How could you be a good asset to that organization? And With that little summary, it gives enough sort of basis or background for interviewers to kind of build the next questions on. So whatever you are talking about, you could bring up your interest, you could bring up your latest project work that you worked on, you could bring up something that you created at your previous employment, right? So whatever you are highlighting in that tell me about yourself kind of gives us a little bit of an understanding of how to continue with that. So it's very important to focus on why are you saying and what you are saying in that first question, and what do you want the company to kind of focus on about you, and so build their questions on that, or let them build their questions on that. Does this answer the question?

Yeah, that was particularly important, that advice to think about what you're saying and how you're saying it as well. Thanks. Yeah.

Yeah. And then of course, so then after the first introductory questions, most of the time companies are focusing on behaviors, so they are going to ask you a lot of behavioral questions. And that again has not changed in the last 30, 40 years. And so each behavior question will focus on skills, leadership skills, technical skills. Tell me about a time that when you had to improve something or created something, or tell me about a situation when you had to do this or that, right? So these are the behavioral questions, and those are typically just good for like understanding. So what did you do in the past, and would that work for our organization? Your reaction and your actions, would that be good in our organization? Is that something that we would be doing in those situations as well? So that's kind of like helping employers understand, so what is your personality? How would you handle certain situations?

Leo, you look like you were going to ask a question because I don't want to dominate. Please.

No, no, no, no, please. No, I think it's always interesting. I think the preparation part, though, is really important. I was talking with a student today who for example, had something on their resume which is very interesting in that they love cultural travel experiences. Okay, so, you know, I said basically you never know what someone's going to pull out of your resume that they might find interesting that they want to dive in and ask you more about. And to be prepared so that when someone says, hey, you said you love these kinds of experiences, tell me about the experiences that you feel have been most enriching for you, and be ready to without hesitation be able to talk about those kinds of things. And, um, so, you know, I think sometimes that even though some of these questions, yes, we know ourselves and all that, still means how important it is though to prepare and be thinking about that. The other thing I wanted to ask too is, let's face it, sometimes we are asked interview questions where the question we're being asked isn't really what it is they're looking to find out, if you know what I mean, right? You know, they're asking me a question about something and they want to see how I answer it because they believe the way I answer that question says a little something more broadly about me. So tell us a little bit about some of those kinds of questions that you may, you know, highlight.

That's an excellent point, and thank you, because Earlier you just mentioned that if, for example, somebody is interested in travel, right? And so when we start kind of like digging into that topic, oh, so you're interested in travel, tell me more about that, why are you interested in— so I potentially, if for example I'm a finance institution, I could be looking at risk-taking with that question. Absolutely right. So my question about your travel or digging deeper into why do you like that, is it because do you like to go to let's say hiking tours where you are like maybe putting your own self at risk of like maybe not coming back, or going into the jungle and meeting all these very interesting but potentially dangerous animals, or you like to explore culture and you want to go to, let's say, understand architecture, the way how people think in a specific country, right? So, so we are with that one little topic, we are assessing a number of different skill sets. And, and technically what we're looking for is your aptitude and attitude towards, towards that, that interest and towards people. And so how can we sort of like understand it a little bit better, right? Like, because questions generally there are so many different ways how to answer questions. And so what you are highlighting from those questions kind of gives me a lot to understand about your, your attitudes, personality, and, and what's important for you.

Because it's so easy to make assumptions around those things, right? I mean, we assume someone wants to travel because they find it enriching and this, that, and the other thing. And someone says, no, I like to take 2 weeks a year, go to a different— lie on a beach somewhere and just totally, you know, rejuvenate and restore or something, as opposed to Being out in the jungle, in nature, or visiting art museums, or doing city versus— I mean, there's so many aspects of that. And I think it also teaches us as interviewees to ask good questions, right? In other words, when someone brings, raises something, to don't make assumptions about where that comes from. It's okay to ask that really good question. Now, I know Dr. Hauser and I on many occasions have mentioned to students that it's not just important to give really great answers to questions, but to be prepared with really, really excellent questions. And if you can be the person who's known at the end of the interview as one who asked really great questions, not just someone who, you know, responded well, that can be really helpful. How do we go about preparing for that? And what are maybe some examples of some good questions that we want to make sure that we're ready to bring to the table for an interview.

Excellent point, and that kind of leads us back to the first sort of part of our discussion when I was trying to say that you really would like to aim for a good conversation because a good conversation really is twofold really. One of them is when you're talking and you're You have sort of a message that you would like the employers to get from your side or from your end, but it also entails listening. And so a lot of it is more about listening actually, even during the interview, believe it or not, than actually talking, right? And so I think the worst thing that could happen is that You know, you do your preparation, you collect a number of wonderful questions, and then at the end of the interview somebody's asking you, okay, so what are your questions? And then you mention the first one on your list. Guess what? That was already discussed. That's the worst thing that could happen, right? So I do encourage students to, to make their due diligence and really prepare with questions like, what are the things that you are interested in about this company? So what is it that maybe you haven't seen in the job description but you would like to know? Maybe some of your past experiences prompt you to ask questions about culture, leadership style, maybe something related to improvements within your own job role. So like, what are the new technologies that companies are using? What kind of focus points they have at the moment. So what are the biggest issues that they are having right now, and how are they trying to overcome that? So these are all very good and very standard questions. But really, I encourage them— some of these questions are going to be answered during those conversations or interviews, if you please. But— and also the other important maybe focus point could be just to kind of like really understand— so What is the difference between your current organization or your previous experiences and where you're going to go in the future? So how is it different and how will it make you thrive in that environment? So what, what worked really well for you and what is it that you think that will work well in the new organization? So for that, you could ask a lot of questions about from your interviewers. So how did you get into your position and what makes you happy in your current position? Or what do you think your company or what would you like What do you think your employees would say about this company? What would be the first thing that they would share with outsiders? So these are always very good questions just to check in about the organization, the culture fit, what will they put their focus on, right? So, and what do they like, what would they like you to actually know about them? This will come up in so many different sections of your interview that you will have to kind of listen to all of those different information because not every information is going to come out at the same time, but you kind of need to follow on with them throughout the interview. And just kind of imagine yourself in their shoes and then ask questions. Okay, so this is what I've been doing with that work.

I have a question for both of you, but I want to preface it a little bit by saying I love what you're saying about this idea of good conversation. And also asking questions where you can find out not just about the company, but about the person that you're talking to on the other side. And one of the things that has been really instructive for me over the years is asking them, well, how long have you been here?

Yes.

And because you go interview 5 or 6 people in a company, you find that everyone's been there 3 months, 4 months, 5 months. You're thinking, there's a lot of turnover at this place. Red flag, right? But so things like that. But, um, I'd love to ask both of you. So I have this bias about conversation where— and this is why I think so strongly about asking good questions in interviews. Because so I have this belief that when people are in a conversation, the person who got to talk the most thinks the conversation went the best. So if I'm being interviewed by someone and I can get to talk about themselves and their organization, Obviously, I have to contribute something. But if I can get them to play a greater than 50% role, I'm thinking that's a win for me. How do you both feel about that?

I'll give what we always say to people that we work with, and even our students at Rutgers, that it is far better to be interested than to be interesting. And there is that bias that if I am sharing my experiences, if I'm sharing my pride in the organization, if I'm sharing the things that motivate me to work in this organization. That's great insight for the interviewee to understand what's rewarded, what's recognized, where there might be potential guardrails, et cetera. So that's my response. Ildy, what do you say?

Absolutely. I think so. And, you know, just maybe asking questions like, what makes you successful in that organization? Kind of prompts a lot of good conversation and just helping you understand, would you be a good fit as well? Yeah, yeah. And knowing—

go ahead.

I'm sorry, I was just gonna say, knowing what the organization is striving for.

So for example, if it prides itself on innovation, a question that I might be inclined to ask is, in your organization, what are the unique ways in which you encourage innovation at the level at which I would be coming in? And that again is going to give you a little bit more insight into do the words and the music match for the organization.

Absolutely. So I get this question sometimes from students as to like, so do they have like trick questions or do they want to trick me sometimes? And I find that always very interesting because looking at it from an interviewer perspective, why would I want to trick anybody? So that's always my sort of comeback for it. But if you look at some of the suggested questions that you can find online, you do, you do find some questions that could be what we call from an internal perspective loaded questions, right? So some of those questions that could be interpreted in a number of different ways. So for example, when they ask you a question about, so do you prefer to work alone or in a team? That's definitely one of those loaded questions, and yes, you should have a little bit of a red flag coming up, and then be careful about how you answer that question because the question, how we ask it, we kind of suggest that you need to pick one or the other versus necessarily it's not the case, right? So you can actually make up your own mind whether you want to pick something, and again, we're talking about finding out about your personality, what makes you feel comfortable, what are the environment where you would like to work, Or you can actually just opt for saying that, yes, I actually feel good with both of them, and there are certain situations when I require to work by myself, and I invite those opportunities when I can actually showcase that I can work by myself or manage something by myself, but I also value working in a team environment because there are certain times when It's so much better when everybody works together and puts together and puts together ideas and so on and so forth, right? So, so yes, there are some trick questions, but they are not necessarily to trick the candidates. It's more about giving you options as to how to answer those questions so that we understand you a little bit better.

And that oftentimes questions like that will give them insight into how you make decisions to delegate How you make decisions to collaborate versus prefer structure and independence. And so many times what they're asking for is your thought process. What would lead you to want to be in a collaborative situation versus doing it alone or independently?

Absolutely. And what is your preferred work environment? Because a lot of the opportunities these days can be a little bit more remote than some people would prefer. And so just, just testing that, would you be all right if you didn't meet people every day and you would still be like happy, happy camper the following day when you have to be like online or like you're thinking about your kids online as well, right?

So, you know, in addition to what we've, you know, it was always really kind of the phone interview and maybe the in-person interview, but of course more and more people are having video interviews and would love to get some thoughts from you on kind of dos and don'ts when it comes to video interviews. Like one of the pet peeves of mine is other than people obviously being, you know, conscious of what they're wearing, but their background and what's going on and where they are and what that says about the whole thing to me becomes something that people need to pay attention to. But I'd love some thoughts from you, especially with regard to video interviews, and not only in terms of everything that people hear and see, but in terms of how to really make that impression in— through a computer screen in a way that may be more difficult than in person. So any thoughts around that?

Yes, absolutely. So Technically, the video interview at this point, how companies are using them, is really more part of the selection or elimination process rather than the actual interview process. It kind of took over a little bit from the phone interviews, the original phone interviews that we've used in the past. And so the big difference really is that the questions could come from just either a robot or just a written question that you need to read yourself. And then so there's no one sitting on the other end technically. And then you kind of like direct the piece of that recording as well. And when you're going to record it, typically they're going to give you a number of tries, so up to about 3. So if you feel like the first recording didn't go really well, then then you can just go ahead and quit and then start again. But then maybe take a moment and rethink your strategies and then start recording again. But the worst— when I look at video interviews, the worst thing that could happen is the sound, right? So when I don't hear them, hear candidates very well because there's something going on in the background or they didn't check their computer audio. Before the recording. So that could be very disturbing because there's— even if I'm trying to read the lips, there's no way for the interviewer to ask back and, "Oh, can you say that again because I didn't quite catch it?" Right? So that's the biggest hardship, I think, for interviewers when they look at videos to make sure that the sound is good. You might have to enunciate a little bit better when you're recording yourself. Again, there's no chance for the interviewer to ask back questions. So therefore, make sure that whatever you're saying is understandable, and maybe you can read lips as well. So just make sure that you have your audio covered. The other hard thing with that, with the recording, is that sometimes students don't, or candidates don't necessarily answer the question that's actually given. And so again, the interviewer has no way of asking the question again. So you need to make sure that the message is addressing the question more than like on a phone interview, because with the phone interview you can still go back on, oh yeah, but can you tell me a little bit more about this? Right, so that's not available on a video interview. The other thing that could be potentially hard is the lighting. So if I don't see the face of the individual, that could be a little bit difficult to kind of assess the person because a lot— big part of an interview is based on body language. And so therefore, if I don't really see body language that well, then I might not get the same impression as I would in a different situation, right? So you need to make sure that there's no— I see a number of recordings with kind of like a light around the head, which kind of looks like a halo. So we understand that you are a fantastic candidate, but you do not need a halo over your head. Good tip there.

Yeah.

The light actually comes from somewhere above your head, or if you have natural light, which is a lot of times it's very nice, but sometimes it can overpower the computer camera. So again, just make sure that it's your best is visible and your expressions, facial expressions, sort of follow the message that you are trying to record. So these are typically the biggest issues. The pacing sometimes is a little bit difficult because there's nobody on the other end, right? So when you're thinking, okay, so am I going to pause? Am I going too slow. So again, if you just kind of like pace yourself a little bit to sound a little slower than what you normally would sound, that's typically a good way to go.

You're making a good distinction here though that I'm not sure maybe everyone in the audience is clear about, and that is that the phone interview and the video interview— while the phone interview is an actual conversation, the video interview seems to be an asynchronous situation, right? Where your answers are recorded. So that's kind of interesting. And to your point, lends a whole new dimension to this, doesn't it?

Absolutely. And so with the video interview, it's very similar. You want to make sure that your sound is good, your lighting is good. But there, at least they can talk back or ask questions and ask for clarifications if you've missed something. Typically what happens with the video interviews, it's that it's just not one-on-one. It's more than one people. So sometimes you get a whole group of people watching you, but maybe one person talking to you at the same time. So there's one interviewer who is the dedicated interviewer and all the others are just watching you. So it can be a little bit more intimidating than an actual in-person interview. So I feel like that's another thing that that students sometimes have a hard time with. So I just tell them that, you know, just focus on the one person you are talking to and then just ignore all the other, or everything that goes around, because again, they are just there to observe you. A lot of the times the, the interview setting is very similar to an in-person interview. Otherwise, it's just, and a lot of companies prefer that, and a lot of interviewees prefer actual video interviews because there's no difference. It's very convenient. You don't actually have to do the drive, you don't have to find a parking spot, you don't have to run around the block a couple of times before you actually make it on time for an in-person interview. So it has a lot of good qualities, and I feel like it gives a lot more flexibility to employers who can schedule these interviews. And employees as well. And so it might be a little bit more intimidating just because there might be more people involved in that interviewing session, but, but again, if you're just focusing on the interviewer and questions and trying to have a good conversation, it should work out really well.

Nice. Cecilia, any other questions that you want to make sure we touch on before We wrap up today?

Just, just one question to LD. I so appreciated your advice and the depth of your experience and advice. And if there was one thing learned as an interviewee yourself, what would, what would that be from your experience, your global experience, HR experience, now academic experience? What might be one thing learned that you would share?

Ah, that was a wonderful question. It's a very good question. I would say that just do your due diligence and prepare. I feel like every interviews are not so very different all around, so globally they are focusing on the same objective pretty much, but every company is different. Therefore Their questions are going to be different. The focus is going to be different. So, so making time to prepare and really understand the organization, really understand what are the things that they— what's out there in the news, what are they focusing on, what might make them stand out from other companies, and how would you be a good fit for that company. I think those are, those are very important. The other thing I I think I wanted to maybe mention that, that there's so many new ways of assessments these days, and a lot of the newer generations don't feel very comfortable with in-person interviews as much. So a lot of the companies are catering towards more artificial intelligence-based interviewing, which actually makes some of my generation and earlier generations a little bit more uncomfortable. So you do have to do your own research and kind of balance it out within yourself. So understand your own strengths is the number one step, really, that I'm pretty good at in person and I can pretty much dazzle anybody when I see them face to face. But when it comes to like maybe doing the PiMetrics type of assessment, assessment before that. Well, that's something that I'm not comfortable with. Then maybe spend a lot of time just maybe finding out what it means to actually— what kind of assessments they are doing. There is a lot of information online about DiMetrics, and a lot of newer and bigger companies are using this type of assessment. It's really more focusing on this objective, making behavioral data assessment or making behavioral assessment a little bit more objective. And so, and so that's the kind of like the idea that making it sort of equal to everybody versus like an in-person interview, it's a— there's always different types of biases that all of us have. And so, so just, you know, just try to assess what are the things that you might not feel very comfortable with and do a lot more practice in those areas.

One final thing I'd love for you to comment on, um, is really, uh, I guess it's twofold. One of them is that when you go to a company for a job interview, that job interview starts the moment you show up at the reception desk, and it's how you treat every one person that you come into contact within that organization, not just the person that— and the people to whom your schedule for interviews because that becomes a very important, um, you know, piece, I think. But also, I think we can talk a lot about preparation and giving great answers, asking great questions, but also I think it comes down to some of these, uh, things that we communicate about who we are and just having a good energy level, you know, for every single one of those interviews. And sometimes when you have 4 or 5, even 6 interviews in a row, Entering each of those conversations being fresh, being ready, and being that person that you were in the very first interview, you know, as the day wears on, and, and just being conscious of that vibe that you're putting out there, right? All the great answers and questions in the whole world, but if people feel like, oh, the person was just not like— they were just kind of flat and not very passionate and not seemed very excited about anything, and you know, that kind of stuff, right?

That also leaves an impression, absolutely. And it's funny that you mentioned that, when does the real interview actually start? I get that question quite a bit from students, and I actually tend to say one of the examples that I have from my HR experience that— so you mentioned the reception area, so we had a leadership development interview a couple of years back with, with my old organization. And so we were interviewing 5 candidates during that one day, and there were a number of people involved in the interview process. Everybody was kind of like hyped up about the day. It's a very important day. We are looking at potential candidates who will be potential leaders within our organization, so everybody is very interested. And so the first thing that I heard from one of our executives is that, oh, while I was walking in from the parking lot, I saw the first two candidates, and guess what happened? One of them just chucked a paper under my car. And so now the interview actually starts in the parking lot. That's a great example, yeah.

You know, and I know there's actually one more thought, but I really would hate to leave this conversation without addressing this because I think this can be important for people to know too. Sometimes we're asked to participate in group interviews where we've got someone and then there's maybe 4 or 5 candidates who are all in the room. Any thoughts about that in terms of how we engage others, how we engage the interview, how we stand out? I definitely want to address that because we've been talking about this in terms of very much one-to-one or one-to-many, but how about when we're among several candidates? What does that look like?

So, I typically say that if there are a number of different candidates, it's either because if it's a leadership development program that you are interviewing for, or maybe there are different job roles that you are interviewing for, right, then you kind of stick with your assigned role. So if you're applying for, let's say, an HR role, then your role is to kind of help everybody kind of succeed within that, within that interview setting, right? If you are in a communication role, then look at all of the problems with the eye of the communication professional. So stick with your role and try to kind of allow others to participate and help them be successful while you're showing your expertise as well. And I think that's, that's typically the big rule. So you do want to show that you can answer the questions very well, but you also want to make sure that you are a team player as well. And I think that's the hardest thing. But if you are consistently sort of like making sure that everybody gets a chance to kind of like express their opinion, sort of like asking back, so would there be anybody else who would like to add something to that? Or you are kind of considerate about like, did I answer the question, or was there anything else I could add to that? So checking in continuously, making sure that everybody's on the same page, making sure that the questions are answered. So that kind of like helps managing the situation. And so the other thing that I see students sort of like asking about is that, so, but there are so many people, so how do I kind of keep tab on everybody? And so I sometimes say that, you know, while you are answering the question, you are typically answering it to someone who asked that question. So make sure that you are kind of like connecting a little more with the person who asked the question, but then you want to open it up to the others as well, right? So you kind of look at the person who asked the question first when you start answering the question, and then you look at the others as well, trying to be inclusive and trying to see if they are on the same page, and asking back, is everybody okay with it? Was there anything else that I could add, or was there another related question that always helps kind of like keeping everybody on the same page.

You know, I think Cecilia and I, as she mentioned earlier, we've taught together for so many years. And I think some of the best students we've ever seen, and I'm sure many of the best people we've ever worked with, weren't just people that were great at their job or great in the classroom or in the course. They were the people that also made everyone around them better, and always in a really positive way. But anyway, I can't tell you how much I appreciate the conversation we had today. But I would love it— Cecilia, if you have any closing comments before we wrap up today, um, you know, we'd love to hear that.

Just, just the, the reminder of how we started, that any interview or any opportunity, even in your networking, as you think about networking for a job or in search of a job, it's all about a conversation and it's all about a relationship. And the more you're able to keep keep that in mind and engage, as Ildy suggested, in active listening. We tend to, in our culture, we tend to listen with our answer running, and I would suggest the more we can be aware of that and really try those great active listening skills, they will serve you extremely well.

Ildy, Cecilia, thank you so much. Great conversation on interviewing. I know that our Rutgers students, and I'm sure the broader community of folks out there who get to listen to our podcast will benefit greatly from the conversation we've had today. Thank you all so much, and until next week, thanks so much.

Thanks for having me. Thank you.

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