Inside the Therapy Room: Tough Clients, Social Media, and Candid Q&A

Is it possible to talk too much during a therapy session?

No.

Welcome to the let's Talk about it podcast, where we are taking the fear and frustration out of asking for help when it comes to your emotional and mental health and giving you what you need to think about things a bit differently. I'm Laurie Streeter, licensed therapist and certified hypnotherapist. And with each episode, I'll bring you thoughts, techniques, or a guest to help you find your breakthroughs and live a healthier, happier life. Are you ready? Let's talk about it.

How are you? I'm really good. It's good to see you.

I'm super pumped to catch up. I know you said, like, I think we talked last time on Friday the 13th, but I looked it up and it was like, October 22nd or something, or 26, 2020, so. Really? But that would have been amazing.

That would have been really cool. Very sorry to do this.

Wait, Maybe you are right. Maybe we did record on the 13th, and it posted on the 26th.

See, I love being right. I really love being right.

I'll give it to you. I think you are. I didn't even look at the date we recorded. Awesome. Oh, my gosh, Ariel, I'm so excited to have you back. We, like, hopped on this. You guys, hopped on zoom, hit record, and I want to catch up. And I have gathered some really awesome questions that I haven't even had time to think about. I wrote them all down, and I'm like, ooh, that's going to be good.

Wait, this is amazing then. Because then they're just going to be very, very honest, Transparent, off the COVID.

Oh, yeah, it's going to be amazing. I've already put that out into the universe. Real quick, what have you been up to?

Oh, man.

I mean, it's not a loaded question.

Yeah, it's been a while. I'm like, where do I even start? Well, first of all, I was very exc. When I saw your name come up again. I was like, hi, Lori. Like, saying we should, you know, do this again. So thank you for having me back. I have been pretty much just expanding my practice. I built a new website. I changed my name. I think last time we were talking about how I was, you know, figuring out my branding and all of that. So now that I'm actually moving to the Bay Area in several weeks, I'm going to be hopefully opening up a little private practice space up there. So lots of stuff in the works. It's cool. It's exciting.

That's awesome. Did you go really? Telehealth and remote.

So I've been seeing people remotely. So virtual only ever since COVID hit. I think I have seen a total of three different clients over the last three months, masked. And like, we've done hikes or something outside. So that's been a nice little bridge to what I would consider more quote, unquote, normal. Even though I guess virtual is now normal. It's our new normal.

Normal.

Yeah. And I'm seeing a lot of my clients too, actually, not just mine. I think a lot of people. We were getting more and more used to it, and we actually prefer virtual now just because of the convenience factor. Not everyone, but a lot of people. Like when I told some of my clients, hey, I'm moving, I don't know if you're okay with, you know, potentially not seeing me in person anymore. I might still be here every once in a while, but it would be very sporadic. Right. My Santa Monica office, they all said, great, totally cool. I prefer virtual anyway. So it was very easy to make that switch.

Good for you. I think when everything started, there were a few people, low risk masks. Like, there weren't a lot of people in my office. We have like 9ish therapists and we were moving offices with last April. So when everything hit, we were also like, well, we still have to move. So it was like, yeah, it was crazy. So there were a few clients that I still saw throughout, like in person. But I was really surprised, like, the amount of people who reached out and they were like, just want telehealth. Like, literally don't care if I've never seen you in person. So like, I've just had to like, adapt to that not being weird like that. I've never sat belly to belly, which. That doesn't sound appropriate, but like, you know, in person with someone. So, yeah, it's just like, it's been like adapting and adjusting for everyone. But it's crazy. It's crazy what this has done to, like, therapy and just made it accessible and kind of grateful for it, I must say.

Yeah, I am very. I'm actually grateful for it as well. It really has made the mental health world, I think, more, like you said, more accessible. People are feeling less restricted in what they. They are learning or what they know about mental health. So I think Covid has had its silver linings.

We'll say they're there somewhere for sure.

Somewhere. Somewhere, yeah.

So last time we talked, we touched on imposter syndrome, adhd, people pleasing. It was like such an Energetically infused conversation, which is why I'm like pumped to do all of this today. But is that still a lot of like what you're addressing? Like catch people up on your specialties and what you're kind of like really loud about lately?

Well, I'm actually just getting back on social media. I'm really, I've been so slacking on that. But in general, like I said, I redid my website, my main focus, like what people would actively see and what I. Yeah, what I do is exactly what you just said. Perfectionism, people pleasing, codependency, high functioning anxiety, adhd, self doubt. So a lot of that imposter syndrome. Right. I obviously have always had a passion for eating disorders because I started in that realm, but that's not my specialty right now or my. Excuse me, that's not my focus necessarily. So yeah, I think a lot of codependency, a lot of high functioning anxiety. To give a Cliff notes version of that or if I'm going to do buzzwords, it would be yes, perfectionism and people pleasing.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, welcome back to social media too. I saw, I like laughed at your latest. Was it a real. And you're just like talking about taking a break? It was, the audio was hysterical. I was like, I, I think that's what made me send you a message and was like, do you want to come chat with me? Because you're just hysterical. I think it's great.

I mean it was Nicki Minaj. It's hard to not have fun with that kind of sound. I mean all those TikTok sounds, you know, they're fun. They're so funny.

So, okay, I asked on Instagram a couple weeks ago and then like a couple days ago and I was like, what questions do you guys have? Like, what would you want to ask a therapist? What have you wanted to ask a therapist or your therapist but you never have. And I must say we have some tough ones and some funny ones and I'm like, I said I'm pretty excited about this so we'll just. There's no like good order. I literally just wrote them down and I don't know about you, but like I'm busier than ever. So I didn't even have time to like think about them. I really didn't like full transparency. So let's roll with roll. This is going to be so good. Okay. One of the first questions that came was it was like a two parter and I think we're going to have to break it up. She said how do we deal? Like we as therapists, how do you deal with tough clients? And have you ever had a client infuriate you? And I was like, woo, coming out of the gates. Okay. Really?

I know. Okay, okay. So the first part. Okay, have you ever had a client infuriate you? Was the latter part and the first part was have you. What do you do with a tough client?

Yeah, how do you deal with a tough client?

Oh my gosh. Okay, so do you want me to start with that one? Do you want to start with that?

Sure, go ahead. If you can think of something.

Well, first of all, I think it's kind of defining tough.

That was my first thought. Right.

We're such therapists. Like what do you mean by tough?

Explain exactly what I thought. Yes.

Like for me, tough usually would imply a lack of willingness to participate in the therapeutic process.

Yeah, like tough clinically is immediately what I thought of. Like tough, not like asshole tough. Like my like personality. My first thought was like, tough clinically, like somebody who's willing or super depressed and struggling.

Exactly. Or, or maybe like a common phrase I use a lot is like a help rejecting complainer. Right. Which is a very psychodynamic phrase. But it's essentially someone who, who they would be considered. Right. Tough. There's a lot of resistance to taking any sort of helpful or wise minded feedback or what have you. Cause wherever they're at in their life is, you know, or whatever self deprecating behavior they're doing, it's like still serving a purpose for them that can be very challenging, I think. So how to, how to deal or not how to deal? How do you work with, I think meeting them where they're at. Right. Kind of acknowledging, hey, there's some resistance here. I'm observing, you know, whenever I say you know, X, Y or Z. Sorry about that. This is, you know, this is your, your response or this is kind of the trend that I'm observing. Can you tell me if that seems right for you? I mean, would you agree that there's. Obviously I'm kind of think, I'm thinking out loud right now, but would you agree that there's some resistance? Is that just what I'm seeing? So basically kind of calling out the elephant in the room and meeting them where they're at. What about you?

Yeah, I mean, I think like my immediate thought, like I said, was tough, like resistance, willingness, like, you know, somebody who's really depressed, it doesn't mean they're tough, but like they have a really hard time doing anything which makes it clinically difficult. Like, that's how I wrapped my head around it and I thought of it. Like, I agree with what you said. And I also was just thinking more along the lines of, like, this is why we have fellow therapists or clinical directors or books and podcasts. Like, I will. I don't think people in general, maybe my therapist know because I'm always pulling research, or my clients know because I'm always pulling resources. But, like, I'm always listening, learning, reading, buying courses to just get a different perspective. Like, if there's a different way, even though I've been doing this for, like, 15 years, if there's a different way, I can say something that will help that person. Like, I'm all for learning it. So I think when. When I look at, like, how do I deal with a tough client? It's what you said. But then on the back end of it, like, I'm constantly learning so that I can help that person. And then if I can't, if I'm clinically not the best person to help them, like, I don't treat eating disorders, and if that's something that transpires, how do I deal with them? I have to refer them out and work with them through that process. So, like, I don't even know if that was a fun answer for people, but that's like, that's what we do.

Well, no, I mean, I think that's a great answer. And I think that also circles into what happens if you're ever, quote, unquote, infuriated.

Yeah.

With a client. Right. At that point, you kind of need to check yourself. Right. Like, am I. What kind of. Is it? I always forget, is it transference or countertransference when it's from us?

Counter transference.

Counter, yeah, we put counter transference. There's something that that client is bringing up in us to make us feel, or, excuse me, to get us to that point where we're feeling infuriated. So it's not so much about them and what they're going through. We need to start to check ourselves. Do we have enough information? Are we looking at the other side of things? Are we clouding our. Excuse me, is our lens clouded by our own experiences? Right. What have you. So I think that if you get to that point and you realize, oh, wait, maybe I'm infuriated because this is out of my scope. Right. Like you were saying, eating disorders. Great. How do we manage that? We say, you know what? I recognize that this is out of my scope. How do we transition you into a different treatment setting? Right. What have you. There's this. This is a tough, but a really good question.

Yeah, yeah. And I can honestly say, like, I haven't had a client ever, like, anger me or infuriate me. There's definitely been clients where I'm like, this isn't a good fit clinically. Right. But that doesn't make me mad. It's just being honest. Right. I won't just work with anybody and everybody. Like, I not going to do you any good going outside of my scope. When I worked in residential years ago, we had kids with extreme behavioral issues. Right. Like, I had a kid slam one of our staff's hand in the door and chop his finger off. Like, that was an infuriating situation. I've definitely witnessed a lot of that. But I wasn't mad at the kid because they were in residential for, you know, like, it's still a tough situation. So I really. I don't think I've ever been angry at a client. It's more, again, like, clinically, is this appropriate?

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that's really good insight, too, for you to recognize. Right. It's not them. It's the situation again.

And.

Or circling back to what I was saying earlier, is it something that is clouding my view of what's happening?

Right, right. And we're human too. Like, if I'm not getting enough sleep, if I'm not taking care of myself, like, my patience is, you know, like, am I not at my best because of what I have going on? Right. Which is why I take very seriously, like, my own self care. And it's a whole other freaking conversation. But, yeah, I mean, I think it all. It all factors in. Okay. I love it. Does it hurt your clients or does it. Does it hurt your clients? Does it hurt your feelings if a client leaves? Oh, I know, right? These are like, amazing.

Who asked? It was your Instagram audience.

Yes. Yes.

I like these.

So good.

I like these. Okay. Does it ever hurt my feelings when a client leaves? When. If. Okay, when a client ghosts me, I will feel a little bit like, wait, what did I do? What happened? I don't think I can necessarily say that my feelings are hurt because I will know. I usually, at least from my. My recollection when this has happened. I. I typically don't take it too personally. I might kind of circle back and say, okay, what were our last sessions like? And I might double check or, you know, did I say anything? Was there something, you know, perhaps that they didn't like or they didn't appreciate. So I might doubt myself a little bit or doubt the relationship, but I don't think I necessarily would say that my feelings are hurt. If anything, I would be just kind of sad and confused.

Yeah. And I don't know about you, but, like, I tell my clients initially, let me know if there's something you don't like. My clients are very aware in the first session or two, or even if we do a quick consult on the phone how I work. I like homework. I always tell them what matters. Yes, we can have an amazing relationship and conversation an hour a week, but what really matters is what you do. Outside of these four wall. Clients are very aware of how I work. And if. I mean, not too long ago, maybe last year, I had a client, I worked with her for, like, a few weeks, and I knew that she had talked to a few therapists, like, before she had started meeting with me. And then she sent me a message, was like, hey, I really appreciate it. I actually had a session with my friend's therapist, and we seemed to click. And I meant I'm just gonna, like, try and do that. And because she had some specific stuff going on, and I was like, okay, that's totally fine. I wish you the best. Right. For a moment, like, it was like, oh. Like, I. I think what hurts is I really like my clients. So if they ghost me or like, if that situation right, where she texted me and she's like, hey, I'm going to see someone else, that it didn't hurt my feelings. But I was like, oh, like, I really liked them. So I think that's what, like, sucks more. But ultimately, I get rid of that very quickly because I always just want people to do what they think is best for them, and I want them to get the help. Really, truly, it's. This isn't for, like, lip service. I really want people to get the help that they need and want. And then I check myself and I'm like, okay, I just really liked them. But, like, ultimately, I just. I want them to be good. And if that's what's going to do it, cool. Luckily, it doesn't happen a lot. Like, that was. Yeah, that was a very rare occasion.

But, yeah, of course we get a little sad, but we're human.

Yeah.

Yeah, we're human. But at the same time, like you said, you do you whatever is best for you, and sometimes ghosting is the best, or saying goodbye, I've got to, you know, break up with you. You know, it's a hard conversation to have, but we had it.

Yeah. Well, I will say about the ghosting, like, if I don't hear from a client, if I'm seeing someone weekly or every other week consistently, and they just disappear, I will text or call them, and I will say, hey, it's been a couple weeks. Like, what's going on? Or if someone's like, hey, I'll call you. I'll check in to make an appointment. If we've gone down to, like, once a month and I haven't heard from them in three months, I will again call them and check in on them. Because I do also try to encourage people, like, have that tough conversation. Don't just ghost someone. If you're like, hey, I'm actually just fine, and I don't need a session, that's okay. The ghosting thing has to, like. Yeah, there's a little bit of, like, accountability there. Like, did you just disappear on your therapist? Because, like, what else is going on?

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I think the only other thing that I would have to say, and this might be a little bit of just piggybacking off of our, you know, the conversation. Not a direct answer to the question. But if someone is leaving to, you know, potentially go see someone else, if anything, great. You've got what you needed from our time together. You're finding someone else who can meet you, where you're at in this different part of your journey or, you know, I work with people. Some people who have chronic illness. Right. That's not my specialty. So great. They have someone that they talk to for that. Have fun.

Go.

Obviously, it's not fun, but you get the point.

Yeah. Yeah, I love it.

Okay.

Can I hug my therapist? What do you think? Have you ever hugged a client?

I think it depends. Yeah. I will hug my clients, but I will ask. Well, first of all, this was, like, pre Covid. Obviously.

Yeah.

But I would ask because I would work at treatment centers, too. Right. So there would be a lot of goodbye groups. I would say, are you accepting hugs? Do you want hugs? Are you open? And if they would say yes, cool. Otherwise, no, we don't have to. If they ask, we. Well, I'll speak for myself. I will decide if I feel like it's okay or appropriate at that time. If it's just. If it doesn't feel clinically appropriate, I'm not gonna do it. If it does, I'll absolutely give whoever it is a hug.

Yeah. When I. Yeah, it does. I think it depends. When I worked in residential, I was with those kids, I mean, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80 hours a week. And, I mean, you lived with them, right? Like, yeah, I went home at night, but it was there all the time. So there were a lot of, like, side hugs and stuff like that. Like that. Because I worked with boys who were, gosh, what, 14, 15 to 20 years old, and I was like, 23 at the time. So, you know, like. And just, like, that's what we taught them. Personal space. So there were a lot of, like, side hugs. It wasn't like, front to front, which in that situation, like, super not appropriate. Right. In private practice, I've had clients. I don't. I think it doesn't happen a lot for me. And not because it's like a problem. It's just not. It's just not like a huge thing. But, like, I've had clients who struggle with infertility. And then she found out she was pregnant, and I was like, oh, my God, like, can I hug you? Like, I'm so excited for you. And, like, you just see the emotion on their face. Right. It's just an emotional moment when you or a teenager who's really struggling and they're going to leave and they're just, like, standing there and their head is hanging and I give them a hug, and as I'm hugging them, I'm like, you know, there's studies that say if you hug someone for 20 seconds, it releases, like, norepinephrine or whatever, whatever the, like, positive serotonin and all that stuff. And, like, they laugh and we make light of it. But, like, I'll do that kind of stuff where it's wildly appropriate.

Exactly.

I'm not just like, okay, see you next week. Hugs, like. But I think as a client, if you feel like you need a hug or you're just, like, wondering all these questions too, you should feel comfortable, like, asking your therapist if they've had a really hard time, and they're like, can I have a hug? Ask your therapist.

Exactly.

You know, I think it's. It's situational. I've never hugged a male client other than my, like, residential boys.

You know, I think probably same. If you think about it, the majority. Or if I think about it, the majority of my clients in my private practice are female. Yeah, makes sense.

I love it. All right. Are you busy or. Because of COVID Yes.

Haven't we all been busier because of COVID I don't mean to laugh at the question. It's just laughing at the situation almost. Right. I used to cry about it now. I laugh. Yeah. I think if anything, I have rearranged my schedule in such a way so that I will have every other Friday off so that I get three, or excuse me, two three day weekends a month so that I'm not burnt out.

Yeah. Fridays and Sundays right now are my days off. Yeah. And I, I think it's, it's because of telehealth. Right. It wasn't an option before and I don't think it's. Covid allowed telehealth, which allowed all these people to get the help that they needed, which caused me as a provider to be busy. Right. So like, I guess it's directly related to Covid, but it's, it's really the telehealth that did it for me. I mean, that's really what's skyrocketed everything.

Well, yeah, absolutely. And now too, I don't know if you have seen this, but a lot of therapists now, which I appreciate. I like, even my mentor, he, he's told me, yeah, go for it. They're kind of. Since everything is virtual. Right. We can only do therapy in states that were licensed.

Right, Right, right.

But technically we can do coaching. Right. Or consultations or support groups or what have you, whatever as not in the, in not that therapist role with people who live outside of our states. So that's something too, that I've been, you know, able to expand my practice with too. Hey, we're not doing therapy. It's not going to look the same, it's not going to feel exactly the same, but you're going to get a lot of the same elements. Right. I'm still a therapist. You're still going to get a lot of those same zingers or what have you. Comedian. Haha. But you see what I mean. I think that has been really, really helpful. I mean, at this point, I am seeing on average about 17 to 22 clients a week. When I first started though, in Covid, or when things got real, real intense, I was seeing 28, 29 clients a week. And that was way too much for me. I needed to slow down. I had to essentially break up with some clients that I felt like weren't the best fit regardless. Right. So now, like I said, I've readjusted my schedule in such a way that fits better for me and I'm not too burnt out to help the ones that, you know. Like, I am rambling at this point.

No, makes sense. Makes sense.

Okay.

All right. Do you look people up on Facebook or social media like do you. Well this was a two parter too. It said do you look people up on Facebook, book slash social media? Like I'm guessing they mean like our clients and then do clients try to friend you on social media?

And I used to, I used to be really bad about that because we're not supposed to when it's. Yeah, I used to be really bad about looking people up on Facebook when I was new, when I was an intern. I am really proud of myself. I have not done that in a long time. I cannot remember the last time I looked someone up. With the exception actually this circles into that next part of the question. Have I ever had clients try to befriend me on my Instagram? My professional one. I have some clients who follow me. I don't follow them back but there was one time that I had someone who I thought was a client, like one of my posts and then I said is that the person that I think it is? And I went and I looked and I go okay, yeah, that's my client. Okay, cool.

Yeah.

And then that was it.

Yeah, I don't look people up. I probably did well. So when I was starting I was like in residential and stuff like that. So like they didn't have social media. We had a couple really high profile people that there were websites about. Was a really hairy situation. So we did look at like those websites because we needed to see what the family was saying about the DCFS wards treatment and stuff like that because there was a whole hullabaloo around it, very high profile cases that we had. So we kind of had ish to keep up with that stuff or at least our directors did and they would update us. Don't look up my clients. I have had clients like hey, look at my latest Instagram post or oh my God, I started a food Instagram page, you know, because it's something we've been talking about and I've been wanting to do, you know, like they'll share stuff with me. I'm not actively seeking them out. I've gotten really just A, I don't have a ton of time to just be like chillin on social media and B, I, I just, I want like my relationship with my clients to be just very like not clouded by any of that. And I don't want them to be telling me something and in the back of my head I'm like, well you were just posting that you were out drinking but you're telling me that you had a nice quiet weekend at home. Like I Don't want any of those thoughts in sessions. Like, no, I don't look them up. I tell clients we have a social media policy. My clients, I tell them, you can listen to the podcast, you can follow me. I can't follow you back. Don't send me messages on Facebook, Instagram, anything like that. If you need me, you know how to get a hold of me. But I definitely have clients who follow me, and then they'll say, oh, my gosh, that guest you had on the podcast, or when you were talking about failure, it was really helpful. So they'll reference psycho education that I've put out there, which is totally fine, but I don't follow them back or, like, engage in clinical stuff, obviously, in those avenues. So, yeah, that was pretty concise.

Really? Yeah.

What do we got? Is it possible to talk too much during a therapy session? Like, I'm guessing they're saying, as a client. No, you want to.

You.

You want me to, like, give you my first thoughts on this?

Yeah.

So I have a couple clients, and they'll literally, if I let them, they'll talk the whole time, and then they'll look at their watch and be like, all right, I'll see you next week. Like, it's so funny. And some people's. Some people just need that. Right? And we've established that. But I will at times be like, can I stop you for a second? Or like, hey, can we stay here for a minute? Like, I want to revisit what you just said. I will do that. I have clients who I more have to pull out of and ask questions. And I have clients who will talk, but I have to keep them directed into, like, what the purpose, like, what we're working on clinically. So I'll be like, hold on a second. Can we stop a second? But I don't think they can talk too much. It's up to us as clinicians to stop them if needed. But I love when my clients talk because it's just like this stream of consciousness that I like. You get someone going, and I'm like, this is amazing. So, no, you can't talk too much, in my opinion.

Same. Same page. Same page. Have you ever seen that? I don't know if it's a meme or a drawing. It's basically like a person in one chair and the therapist in the other chair and the purse. The client basically has three different balls of yarn that are all twisted, and the therapist is. It's going over to the therapist, and the therapist is making the yarn into very nice, organized little.

What is it?

Stools of yarn. I don't. I don't know what they're called.

Schools of yarn. No, I haven't seen this.

Yeah. Yeah.

Awesome.

I have to find it and send it to you. But it's. I don't think the client can talk too much because if anything, that's where we get to hear that stream of consciousness and then help them kind of see things from a different lens or make things feel a bit more clear than they feel for them.

Right.

It's scattered for them. So let's help them tease things out. And sometimes, too, I will have clients that will do, like, what you just said. Right. They'll just talk for the full 50 minutes and then say, oh, shoot, it's time to go. And that will be a really cool opportunity for me to say. Yeah, so next time, we get to start here, right? You. We're not going, like, what were you essentially. What were you deflecting on? If, you know, if they were talking about something from their weekend, and then at the end, they said, oh, shoot, I forgot to talk about this. Great. Glad you got all that out. Now we know there's some resistance to talking about whatever this is.

Right. I just heard about your mom's lasagna for 40 minutes, and then you just told me that you were feeling really depressed for the past three days. So now we have 20 minutes to, like, address that. It's.

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's. Again, there's. There is no time that I could ever feel a client could talk too much, because that's where. Then we bring it into a very here and now moment, and we make it clinical, and we find a way to process whatever that that session was all about.

That's so funny. Okay, so since you brought up chairs, somebody asked, does anybody actually come and lay down on your couch? Do you have a couch in your office?

I did. Okay.

Did anybody actually come and lay on it?

One kid. One kid would. But he was very. How do I say this? He moved around a lot in the room. So, like, he would start off kind of laying down, and then he would walk around and get, like, a ball, a basketball that I had in the room. Then he'd go, you know, and kind of toss the ball up and down. So nobody would ever. I don't think I've ever had somebody just come and lay down on the couch.

Really. So I have a couple of those, right, where they just, like, rolling around on the couch or we're playing in a Game and they're flopping around. Like, I see a couple little ones. But I have one client, and she comes in, kicks her shoes off. She grabs. I have, like, fluffy pillows, and she lays down, and I'm like, girl, make yourself at home.

Yeah.

Like, if you feel comfortable to come and lay down, and that's where you feel, like, most at peace, long as you don't fall asleep, you know? And so she does, and, like, that's like, our big joke. I'm like, come on in. Kick your shoes off. Lay down. And, like, a lot of times, like, she will, like, she'll just, like, lay on her side, right, like, in facing me. And, like, she's not, like, on her back, like those, like, newspaper articles that you see, kind of representing, like, the Chase Lounge with the person on their back and, like, the therapist was behind them. But, yeah, I have, like, really one client who comes in, makes herself comfortable. I'm like, girl, do you? Do you?

Oh, I mean, I love it. I love it. I just. I don't have anyone that really does it. They like to sit, move. I have some people like to sit on the floor.

That's fun.

That's me, too.

What is something fun you've done with a client?

What do you mean? I do fun things with my clients all the time.

I know. I know what is. Like, I have one really specific example, but, like, what is something you've done where you're like, that was such a fun session. Not that, like, I think, too. The other thing is, like, people think therapy can't be fun. Like, I laugh and joke with my clients a lot because it, like, helps diffuse things.

I think the one really super fun thing that's coming to mind is very out of the box. It's very experiential. Granted, it was when I was working at a treatment center. I was working at an eating disorder treatment center, and this person really struggled with body image. And I'm trying to really. I want to keep this short because I can ramble. Basically, we did an exposure therapy session. Instead of just sitting in the Bella Vita, where we were at the time that was the treatment center, we went out and we went shopping, basically for our session. It was like, what's this like for you? Right? To not even necessarily have to try anything on, but to imagine yourself. Oh, I like that shirt. Oh, I like that shirt. Oh, do you want. They ended up buying a shirt. It was awesome. Rocking it the next day. But essentially, we don't only. The whole point is you don't only have to talk. You can do things and you can expose yourself to new situations and exposure therapy is, is fantastic. But yeah, we went shopping and it was awesome for our session.

That's so fun. That's fun. Yeah.

Yeah, that was fun.

So there's, there's actually two things I can think of recently. One of my clients just had a baby a few months ago and she brought him and it was like his like bedtime and I held him and he fell asleep and we talked while I just held the baby and he like slept on me. And I knew she was bringing him. Like she wanted me to meet him and stuff. And I think, side note, like, I love my clients and like, you know, they had a baby and I'll get pictures from the hospital, like meet so and so, you know, like, you're just such a big part of people's lives. But like, that was super fun. Like I got to hold him and, you know, snuggle him while he slept and, you know, it was so cute. And that was just like a really sweet thing that she just like, let me hold the baby the whole time. I have another client and we just use a lot of humor because she is going through a lot of just really heavy stuff. And she'll like, we'll be talking and she'll be like, bro, listen. And I'm like, did you just bro me? You know, so like, we, we have a lot of that banter and it's fantastic. And then there was one time she was just like in a recent session, she was just like getting real bogged down with the emotions. And I was like, are those vans? Like she had, she had like slip on shoes, right? And she was like, yeah, why? And I'm like, you know, if you throw them, they always land upright. And she was like, what? So we like threw her sho. I was like, no, give me your shoes. Watch. And I like threw them across my office and they landed upright. She's like, are you freaking kidding me? And it like, it just diffused the emotion. And then she put her shoes back on and we continued. But like, that's very specific to her. Like, we just have a lot of that humor in the conversation. And she'll come on and she'll like fidget with something. I'm like, do you need something new to fidget with today? You know, like just fun, light hearted stuff that I, I don't know if people like, know exists in therapy. I don't know. It just depends on the client's personality.

And I'm so glad that you mentioned that kind of that client with the vans reference, right? Kind of helping soothe some potential heightened emotions or what have you. I recently, it sparked my memory. A couple of weeks ago, I'm working with a couple, we've been together for almost two years. And. And this was one of their more. We'll say it was a crisis session, right? And it was just so, so funny for all of us because the tension was getting thicker and thicker. You know how it can get in the room. And I just said, you know what, guys? Because obviously when you have the rapport, it's easier, right? On first session. But like, guys, hey, hey. Are we like, not naked on the bottom? Do we have, you know, is it like. Because I can only see them, right?

Yeah, yeah. Oh, telehealth. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right?

And they're like, yeah, yeah, no, we're going to go, great. We're going to stand up here. We're going to stand up here. Go get your dog. Go get your cat. I got my dog. We came and we kind of like did a little bit of a dance party in the middle of this session and a little stretch and then we all got back down or sat back down and it just felt so much better, like the tension was released. They were able to have a more productive and effective conversation. So even in couples or family therapy, right, where people are so scared to do it oftentimes, because that's even individual therapy, right? We're bringing up a lot. It doesn't always have to be so serious or so scary. It can be kind of fun.

Yeah, I love that. Are we naked on the bottom? That's funny.

Is this appropriate to stand up right now?

Are we good?

Are we good?

Generally in 20, 21, in these days, we pretty much look okay from the chest up. Everything from the chest down is questionable.

Exactly.

Okay. There's a few more. Let's do this. Right?

Let's do it.

Do you compare my issues to other clients? Issues?

I, as a therapist, compare one client's issues to another's. Is that the question?

Like, yeah, that was my first thought, was just a flat out no. And then I'm like, okay, why? Right? Why is that a no for me? So I will use. Oh, I have another client dealing with that. You know, like, I'll reference things in my head of, like, things that maybe have helped that I haven't tried with someone. Or I'll say like, you know, it's interesting that you say that because sometimes I don't know how it is for you, but like, Things will go in waves, and I'll have a lot of clients struggling with similar things in a week or in two weeks. And I'm like, you guys are all dealing with the same shit right now. Like, what is in the world right now? You know, like, it just. Sometimes that happens. So I'll be like, you know, it's interesting that you say that because I do have someone right now also struggling with xyz. And here's some things they've tried or, you know, just referencing it in that way, but not in the sense of like, war stories where someone's sitting there and I'm like, why are you in my office? This is not a big deal compared to Sally Sue. Like, it's never a comparison in a bad way. Again, it just goes back to the clinical stuff for me.

I like that you said that, that you'll use maybe other clients treatment interventions as reference. Right. But not necessarily the client themselves. Yeah, I always like to say compare leads to despair, just in general. Like, so. And I really. This is, to use your phrase, this is not lip service. Right. I honestly was very quick. My knee jerk reaction was like, no, of course I don't do that. That would be counterproductive.

Right, Right. Do you talk about your clients when you get home?

Yes, yes, I do. I use fake names and I don't give.

Yeah, that's really interesting.

I don't give descriptive information.

Okay.

But, yeah, my boyfriend, my mom. How are sessions today? Oh, well, you know, one person. Like, sometimes I'll use random names. Like, I have one person that I call Piglet, just because Piglet's my favorite character. I have a little Piglet. I'll show you right here. Oh, he's my anxiety buddy. You know, like, I'll say, yeah, Piglet. You know, they were struggling with some. Some more heightened anxiety today, so we did a really cool coping skills exercise. Right. So no identifying information, but will I share? Absolutely. Yeah.

Most of the time I walk in the door and my husband's like, how was work? And I'm like, good, I'm going to go wash up and change. Like, I don't. But if something is like, really difficult or something really fun happened, you know, he'll say, how was work? And I'm like, well, it's funny you say that because I threw my client's shoes today. You know, it's more of like if there was something really notable. But he. We've even been at stores and you know, somebody be like, hey, Lori. And it's a client and he Just stands there. Like he just knows if I don't introduce him, like obviously you can kind of make the assumption, but you know, he just like, I'm not, not telling him because I'm hiding anything. I just like most of the time I'm like, it was good, everybody showed up. Like that's usually, actually that's usually my answer because that's a good night, right, when nobody cancels or, you know, nobody just like no shows.

Right.

Babe, how was your work? I'm like, it was good, everybody showed up. I'm going to go change. Like, yeah, I'm not like every night debriefing with him or anything like that. Unless there's like, yeah, something that like that big impacted me somehow.

Yeah. Oh sure. And I think too there's a difference, right, between debriefing and, and sharing. Like again. Right. What am I seeing a lot on Instagram now? There's something about like there's a difference between sharing and over sharing. Obviously we know that. But I guess that's where I come in.

Right.

I remember several months ago when I was more active even on Instagram, I said, hey, obviously ethically I would do this ethically preserving all clients confidentiality. But what would it be like? I put a poll up basically. Would you guys like to hear kind of themes from sessions throughout the day? Right. Things that other people are struggling with. 100% of the votes were yes. Right. So for me it's almost like it's a wind down at the end of the day to say, you know what, this was really cool. These are the things that we worked on. It's almost like a little bridge to, okay, now we can talk about, I don't know what we had for lunch or what have you.

Yeah. And I think too, just to note, like you said, there's no identifying information. My husband would never be able to walk by a client and be like, oh, she's got red hair, blue eyes, she's about 5:11. And that must be Lori's client whose name is XYZ. Right. And I have nobody of that description that just came to me. Like there's. If they walked up and said, hey Mark, how are you? He would have no idea who they were. He usually doesn't anyway. But especially if it was a client.

So.

Yeah, I don't, Yeah. I don't know if people are like worried that we go home and sit around and talk about. But it's never, yeah, it's never in a bad way. We're not identifying them.

No, no, and honestly, too, I guess that circles back to. At least for me. Right. That first. It was one of the first questions about whatever happens if a client is tough or infuriates you. That goes into kind of the debriefing piece, right, that you said. I wouldn't necessarily do that at home, like, with my boyfriend or with, you know, my family or what have you.

That's when I'm texting my therapist friend, you got. You got time tonight when you leave the office? Like, it's a clinical. Like, where is my head at with this?

Yeah, exactly.

Mm. Mm.

Same pain.

Well, that was. Let me look. Yeah, that was like, a lot of. And then I saw, like, a lot of just, like, similar questions. So I think we did a really good job answering a lot of general stuff. Like, I. That was like. I don't know. That was super fun, if you ask me. But you brought up something I would like to touch on real quick, if you're up for it. The sharing versus over sharing.

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Here. Here it is one of the questions. Because this is why I wanted to ask it last. And you brought it up. So look at that. It was. What's an unpopular opinion that you have as a therapist? So I've been told, like, just in conversations with other therapists, like Lori, I share clue. Like, when we're talking about things, they'll say, I probably share way more than you do. And I feel like my clients, like, I'll leave a session be like, ooh, did I tell them too much? I'm like, did I overshare? But I've been told time and time again by fellow therapists in clinical debriefing supervision. Anything that. I actually have really strong boundaries around sharing and oversharing and stuff like that, like, disclosure. But. So that's one side of it. I. I think an unpopular opinion, I don't know. But, like, I'm not a huge fan, and it's not a judgment. But there are a lot of therapists online that are very open.

Yes.

And there are times where I've written something and my husband has been like, babe, do you want to talk that much about, like, your past struggles with anxiety? And I'm like, yes, I'm very aware of what is too much, at least for me, and I'm very careful with it. But there are a lot of therapists that. I see that in my head. I'm like, that would be way too much for me. So there's this opinion that we need to share, but I don't know I think I'm like the minority of, like, that's too much. I don't, I don't know. I.

Well, first of all, I see what you post. Right. So I think it's very subjective. Right. Like, because for me, I feel like you're not over sharing at all, but you're also not necessarily under sharing. Right. Like, for me, I feel, I will say I feel very similarly to you in that there's a lot of therapists that I do see who I would not share what they're sharing. Right. It's a little too much for me.

Yeah.

And I know I share a little bit more than some of my colleagues.

Right.

Like, I think I'm kind of in the middle of that spectrum. So I feel like again, it's really, it's really up to you how much unpopular opinion. I really think it's up to the therapist how comfortable they are to share whatever it is. Because guess what? Your practice is full. All those. Well, I don't, I don't know for a fact, but all of those therapists, I would imagine are doing well. Their practices seemingly are doing well. So it's almost like, you know, what, the oversharer therapists might be with clients who appreciate that.

Yeah, yeah.

Case by case basis again.

Yeah. And anytime I find myself like cringing at something, like, why would you put that online? You know, as a, as a professional, like, I check myself and I'm like, you know what? Good. Not about me. Like, I'm very good at just the awareness of recognizing any, like, feelings that come up with it. Just because it's been something that's been on my mind lately. So I pay attention to it and then I'm like, okay, you know what? It, it ain't been impacting me at all. It ain't amazing grammar, but, you know, like, it's, it's not impacting me whatsoever. So you do you again, like it. But it, I've noticed along the, like, just, especially within the past probably couple years, just with the, you know, influx of all the social media. And I think what people don't know too is like, we don't really have any from the American Psychological Association. We don't have any guidelines. Social media, like, they're super not caught up. There's nothing out there telling us like gold standard what we should and shouldn't be doing. So we're just all making up rules as we go. And I agree, I think it's like what we're comfortable with. But I do, I think personally there are Things that I see where I'm like, that's too much for me. But like, if you want to do it, like, have a heyday.

Exactly, exactly. I mean, even recently, I caught myself going to want to show, you know, one of my friends something like, see, this is. This is what I would never do. And then I caught myself. I was like, no, this is me, just because I wouldn't do it. But they're thriving. They're thriving and I'm happy for them. I don't think anything worse about them as to opposed person. It's just. Would I be comfortable showing up like that?

Yeah. Yeah.

But again, though, right, for somebody who is more in the middle or on that side of wanting to share a bit more, it could also be really empowering. Right. Like, ooh, if they're, if they're showing all of that, then I can share a little bit more.

Yeah.

If anything, again, it's just different strokes for different folks.

Amazing. You know, are there any. Just out of curiosity, because I don't have an answer for this, so really put you on the spot and see if there's anything that comes to mind.

Oh, boy.

Are there any, like, other unpopular opinions that you have? Like, I can't think of anything else that's going on right now where I'm like, I fully disagree with 99% of you. I don't know.

Yeah, you know, for me, this is definitely, I think, an unpopular opinion. However, I saw someone and I can't remember which therapist it was. It was a very influential, very large. She has a large platform. It might have been therapy for women. Do you follow therapy for women?

Probably.

I don't know. Amanda. Amanda. Anyway, I am. First of all, I will say I am not. I don't have a trauma informed certification or I'm not trauma informed. Basically, I don't work from a trauma lens. Do I know about trauma? Absolutely. What therapist doesn't? So that's where I might not have a whole lot of credibility here. But I think it's very hard for me when I see a lot on social media and I understand it's very black and white a lot of the time on social media that things like essentially saying if you've had some sort of trauma or traumatic experience, like it's okay for you to, you know, be sad forever or what have you, you know, it. I don't agree with that. It's like you can. Just because something happened to you doesn't mean that you can't find a way to manage it better.

Right.

And Again, I can't remember exactly who posted it. I think it was therapy for women. But she posted something that was in alignment with that. Right. Like, hey, just because you've experienced something bad, A, doesn't mean it's trauma, but B, even if it is, doesn't mean that you can't find ways to manage those feelings with more effectiveness. Right. It's not like an excuse to just quit life.

Yeah, agreed. Yeah.

But again, I think I have seen a lot on social media, especially as of late with Simone Biles. Right. You know, there was a lot of controversy around that. Right. People in the mental health world were coming to her rescue, whereas some other people were saying, well, no, she's a quitter.

She should be able to deal with this at this level. Yeah, this is what she's trained for. Yeah, I heard it all. And my husband and I had some. That's really interesting that you bring that up. Ooh, my husband and I had some conversations about that.

Yeah. I'm sure many people did. And it's a touchy subject, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

So unpopular opinion, I guess. Cliff Notes version is, I just, I'm not going to be that person or that therapist that's ever like, oh, something bad happened to you, it's okay to quit life. Like, no, you can find ways to help yourself.

Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think, with that Simone Biles thing, too. Just. You brought it up.

I did. I brought it up.

Blame you. I did see a lot of people swing in completely opposite directions. I didn't see a lot of, like, neutrality with it. And it was more non mental health people, athletes stuff that were just like, she quit that at that. Right. And it was more the mental health advocates professionals that were like, it's okay, I. You don't want to do something or something's bothering you, I'm all for. For you. It's up to you as an adult to make decisions and know your limits. Right. I have also been a diver and a gymnast. It is very dangerous to not have any idea where the hell you are in the air and compete or continue. I mean it. So, you know, she talked about the twisties and stuff like that. And people who haven't been athletes or specifically been a gymnast, they don't understand that. Right. So I have some. Granted, I wasn't an Olympic athlete. It was high school. But I still have some experience with what it means to get lost in the air and not have any freaking clue and feel like I could break my neck. Right. So very dangerous. And if she would have competed and sucked ass. She would have brought the team down and then people would have been like, I can't believe she would have, she didn't pull out. And then, you know, she, you know, got bronze for the team because she, she didn't admit she was struggling. Right. Like, I can see maybe it would have gone in that direction if she would have compet anyway not let the team do what they were going to do. I think it was like a lose, lose in that. But I, if that's what she needed to do, like I kind of fully support, I do, I fully support her decision. Her mental health is way more important than medals. I agree with that. And people who are like, she let the country down. You go train for something for your entire life and you go do that and then you bring pride to the country and then you get to talk. Right? Like, I don't think she let the country down. I don't think she made us look bad. I don't think she did anything to like disparage gymnastics or Olympic at like, she got a lot of support. I do support her. I hope. My concern is, was she not dealing with mental health stuff before? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know that now she's like, shit, like, this kind of blew up at the Olympics and now I want to focus on it. Or were the people around her, yes, people. Or were they not, you know, encouraging her to take care of herself? I don't know. But if that's what she needed to do in that moment to save herself, I support it. I support it. And I really don't feel like we have a place to judge. But I saw people very much like 100% support her with not a lot of validity. And then some people just say awful things and I'm like, you're just a dick.

Like you're just an asshole. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and exactly, I think you, you, you touched on two points, right? One, she was in a lose, lose situation.

Right.

And B, no one is going to have all of the information and people. No one. No one. She's the only one that knows what's going on with her, inside her brain, inside her body. And that's with anyone. It's anyone. So I think kind of moral of Simone Biles WRITER of this would be just like, you might want to have some more information or be mindful of how much you are judging when you don't, you don't know exactly what's going on.

Agreed. I loved it. That went super quick. I know you go, but thanks for answering questions with me. I think it's just fun to answer stuff off the cuff that I don't know that people are apparently wondering. So go.

Yeah. This was really cool. I like that people chimed in. This was fun.

Yeah. Yeah. Anything coming up that you're excited about that we should be looking out for? Because before it was therapy with Arielle on Instagram. Right now it's Feel well with Arielle.

Yes, it is. I had to make. I had to rhyme. I love it.

It's so good. It's so good. But what else is coming up? Like Jimmy programs? Are you doing anything people can keep a lookout for? What do you got going on over there?

Honestly, with my move, I am just focusing on that right now and making sure that I am ever so slightly more consistent on social media. So if anything, just. Just follow me to keep me accountable for my consistency on there. And then the more I grow my practice, I'll keep everyone posted.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks for doing this with me. I appreciate it. And I don't know. Wait, your middle name is Simone? Is that what I see? Look at that. I just saw that on the Zoom name. That's cute. Simone. Well, she's obviously still very highly revealed. Revered. Revered.

Revered.

Whatever. You get to share your middle name with someone very awesome. I love Simone Biles. So there's that. Oh, my gosh, Arielle. Thank you so much. If you. I don't know, come back. Come back anytime. I was gonna say, if you need anything, let me know. That's just like. That's so weird. What a dumb thing to say.

You know what? You're used to saying it probably at the end of sessions, Right? If you need anything, you know where to find me.

Pretty much. Pretty much. All right. Come back anytime. We may have to do this again. I think we kind of opened the door to Narnia, and maybe there's some really awesome questions that people are like, well, if they'll answer them, I'll ask them.

Oh, I'm so into it. Let me know. I am here for it. Thank you, Lori. All right, I'll talk to you soon.

Thank you so much for spending this time with me today. If you loved this episode, it would mean so much if you would share it with someone who you think would love it, too. And don't forget to leave a review with your thoughts. What resonated, or even what you'd like to hear more of. Because I promise you, if something's on your mind, it's on other people's minds, too. I appreciate your help in getting these messages on mental health out into the world. And until next time, cheers to living a healthier, happier life.