5 Secrets for Creating Breakthrough Innovations - with Chip Bell and Louis Carter

We have the legendary Chip Bell with us here today. Chip is awesome. He's been in this, for this game, a very long time, and he is a consummate expert in customer experience, leadership development, in so many areas. It's really an awesome pleasure to have you on here with us today, Chip.

Oh, thanks, Louis Carter. It's an honor for me as well. Can't wait.

Awesome. You know what, Chip, we're going to go through today the 5 secrets for creating breakthrough products, services, and solutions. Does that sound like a good idea? Because you have your new book, Inside Your Customer's Imagination. So this whole thing here today is going to be about the 5 secrets. So I'm not going to tell anybody about these secrets.

Okay, no, don't breathe a word.

We're going to be very quiet about it. That's fine. Chip, tell me a little about this concept of the customer's imagination. Everybody asks this question, sort of, how do I— I can anticipate, right?

Yeah, right.

However, you know, and we could survey. However, how do we really sort of— how do we get inside the customer's imagination?

Well, that's what the book's all about. And it's all focused on innovation. And so if you think about most companies, when it comes to innovation, they know they've got to innovate. They've got to create new products, services, and solutions, or they go out of business. A lot of them turn to their R&D facility or best practices as the source of those new products, services, or solutions. And since I'm a customer service guy, I said, why not talk to your customers? And so the book's about how that occurs. Now, to your question specifically, it's important to remember that imagination is on the inside, you know. And so I like to think of it as a door opened only from the inside. So the question is, if the customer has all these crazy, wild, off-the-wall kind of ideas and insights that might lead to a product or a service, how do I get inside? And so the book's about how to build a kind of partnership. That's where the 5 Secrets are going to come in. The kind of partnership that will cause that customer to want to open that door and be eager to share their insights and ideas. And so that's sort of the backdrop.

I think of one of my favorite examples of the inside the customer's mind is Steve Jobs. Really one of my favorite ones because it's incredible. He didn't do surveying. He knew the way things really were. They had some focus groups. What really mattered was so that he used his imagination and followed the customers. How is that an example of this as well? How does that work in?

Yeah, absolutely. And I think part of the thing is that Steve had a wonderful capacity to bridge the intrigue as an engineer, the intrigue of a perfect product or amazing product, and a great instinct about what was important to customers and what they might want if they had that opportunity. I think great innovators are dreamers. They imagine what might be instead of focusing just on what is. And he had an incredible talent for doing that. And so he knew kind of what instinctively would work with a customer. Some of us don't have that kind of genius. And so we have to use more deliberate methods to find ways to get inside the customer's head and not just instinctually know what's there. And so again, the 5 Secrets are all about how we deliberately create this partnership so that the customer shares with us the crazy things that they know and do and so forth. Because oftentimes, they can see things different than we do. We're too close to it. We know too much. And so that's part of the 5 Secrets and what they're all about.

So I really want to know about this because obviously for selfish reasons as well, I want to know how to get into the mind of the—

Good, good. That's what we're going to talk about. Well, let me start with where I got these 5 secrets. If you looked at the most innovative companies in the world, and we all could name their names, that's not something that's a secret somewhere, but we come up with names like Apple or Amazon or Google or Pixar. And so you go inside the cultures of those organizations, and you write a lot about this, Louis, in your books. If we go inside that culture and think about what they value, what's important, what their norms and beliefs are, what you find is they tend to value an atmosphere of curiosity. They're always learning, and they stay in that curiosity mode. They also are always focused on what precisely the root cause of what we're trying to do or the primary purpose of what we're trying to do. That focus is always there. The third thing is they build an element of risk-taking. How do I take risk? I call it discovery in the book. But it's a learner-based risk-taking. And the fourth thing is they build an atmosphere of trust. There's a great degree of transparency. So People feel they don't feel fearful in that environment to take risk and try new things. And finally, there's a sense of passion, that enthusiasm and excitement for what they're about. So we find those 5 elements common across all of these famous, well-known innovation companies. And so my thought was, what if you took those 5 elements— there could be more, of course— But what if I took those 5 L's and applied them to a relationship, a partnership? What would that look like? And so that's the essence of the book. The curiosity, grounding or focus, discovery or risk-taking, trust, and passion.

Well, those are definitely, those are essential elements of great relationships. I think that's really where we're going here is it's a relationship that you're developing with customers, right? Correct. Well, let's go to each one. Could we do that?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, let's start with the first one is curiosity. And, and, uh, and it's a, it's a keen interest in the customer and, and a keen interest in learning, uh, what matters to the customer. And what's— if you think about, we talk about focus groups. I've, I've been, um, part of focus groups for my whole career, and a lot of times, or interviews with customers, and that's a Obviously, a familiar way we might learn about the customer. But we sort of go into those with a pretty good idea about what they're going to say. I kind of know how this is going to turn out. But what if you went into it clueless? What if you went into it having no idea where it was going to go? What if you went into it with the— that's truly the meaning of curiosity. And that is, how do I go in with fresh eyes, fresh ears, And my pursuit is I'm not looking for confirmation of what I already know. I'm looking for treasures. I'm on a treasure hunt. So what do I, how do I communicate with a customer so it feels to them not only like a treasure hunt, but they're a part of it? And they don't just feel heard. They feel valued. And so it's curiosity at a much deeper level. I call it eccentric listening. And so how do we build that kind of deeper connection? And that's, so that's one aspect of it. But part of it also is the kind of query, the kind of inquiry we want with that customer. And I call it dreamer questions. How do you take an atmosphere where we're not just focused on the customer's needs and expectations? You want to focus on their hopes and aspirations. And I'll give you a quick example. I was working with a major pizza delivery company, one you'd know instantly, and doing a lot of focus groups. And the expectation we had was that we were going to hear a lot from these customers about 3 things: product, price, and process. Your pizza doesn't taste that great, costs too dang much, it's too hard to get it, takes too long for it to get to me. But we ask dreamer questions, not just the routine question. Dreamer question like, hey, what's something no other pizza company's doing that would be kind of cool? That's a dreamer question. You're taking a customer outside about aspirational kind of thinking. Well, one of the things we kept hearing in our focus groups was they'd say, well, what about the box? The box? Yeah, the box. You know, I get a pizza delivered, I throw the box away. Why don't you do something fun with the box? Like, well, what, what, what do you had in mind? Well, How about a puzzle? How about a, you know, a coloring book? How about a mask you could cut out and wear? So sure enough, several years later, I'm working with a major manufacturer of boxes, and they made boxes, pizza boxes. And sure enough, they had come up with these designs for the inside cover, and they put a piece of wax paper between the inside of the box and the pizza so it didn't soil. But that's the kind of thing you normally wouldn't think of. But it's getting the customer to dream with you. And so that, to me, that's part of the techniques around how do I demonstrate this kind of curiosity that's going to get my customer pursuing it at a deeper level.

You mentioned an imagination question. I bet there's a lot of ways to bring people into that imagination—statements or ways of inviting it. Tell me more about those kinds of techniques. Oh, sure.

Well, dreamer questions are, again, the context is I want to take you outside of the normal way you might look at a product, service, or a solution and think about what it might be, or what's something like it. We ask questions like, if this pizza— and again, you find these in a lot of great creativity books— if this product was a mode of transportation, what would it be? If this product was a play on Broadway, what would you call it? You know, there are just gazillion ways. And what you're trying to do is ask it and take the customer in a different realm. You know, one of the things I did with a major bank is they were trying to look at new products and service, new service they wanted to offer. And we did this on Saturday morning and we could bring kids, bring in customers. But for every customer we brought in, we brought in a kid from the third grade. We got— worked an arrangement with a local elementary school and they brought it. And so you had, for every customer, you had a third grader sitting there as well, and they got involved in the conversation too. Well, what it did was, one, it added a lot of fun, and we had popcorn, we had all kind of fun things to go along with it. But the thing is, all of a sudden you'd get these kids who would ask a question out of pure innocence, or I don't really know what I'm talking about, but And it would lead you off into a whole new realm, and you go, gee, I never thought about it quite like that. And so that's the kind of question, is to frame it in a way that takes you out of the normal way we tend to look at things in concrete linear ways, to make them illogical and emotional and figurative and metaphoric. Those are the kind of questions that I would ask.

And I know, Chip, that you're a pianist. I'm also a drummer. Yeah, so, you know, that's that kind of other kind of creative brain that we can use and tap into and say, you know, if this were a sonnet or— Yes, yeah, piece of music.

Would it be jazz? Would it be gospel hymn? What would it be, you know? And what would it be called or what would it be about? Or, you know, you can— there's so many different ways to angle that thing and ask it in different directions. So Yeah, I always bring in the arts and stuff like that when I do sessions with clients. They are very right-brain in terms of how we decorate the room and what kind of manipulatives will you have. And, you know, part of it is all to take people out of that total logical analytical path that we normally live business life in and take them to a new realm. And the realm of creativity, the realm of of innovation. And so you think about many, many, you know, I've worked with companies that discovered things pursuing something totally different because it took them out of the normal way they think.

Take them on the dark side of the moon, right? Absolutely. Let's go to the second one now, Chip.

Oh, sure. So grounding is basically all about how we How we find the intersection between what matters most to the customer that you would acquire through, through asking this, the Dreamer kind of questions, and the mission of the organization. Because if you're creating a new product, service, or solution that's outside of those bounds, you're not meeting your need or the customer's need. And they've got to find an appropriate blend. But it's also hanging on to, you know, what is the What's the real underbelly of what we're working on? You know, kids have this, uh, why, why, why, why, you know, then it became a quality technique through the 5 whys or 12 whys or however many there are. But it's all aimed at trying to make sure we're addressing a core problem. Let me give you one of my favorite examples about how customers can take you out of what might appear normal and ground you into what's really going on. And it's a famous story, but I dug into it and learned a little bit more about the origin of it. But it's a story of the company that built the high-rise office building, and they had tenants in the building that were complaining about the slow elevators. You probably heard the story— slow elevators. And they were having to wait too long getting, you know, for elevator in the morning. And so the building manufacturer and the company that was responsible was hearing a lot of complaints from from the tenants. And so they brought in an engineer, say, what are we going to do to fix this? Uh, well, the engineer looked at it and said, well, you're just going to have to bite the bullet and add another elevator shaft. And then they saw, let's bring in a time motion study person, maybe they could see it a little differently. And so they did, and they said, well, you're gonna have to— maybe you can get your tenants to come in at different times so everybody's not needing the elevator at the same hour in the morning. Well, they knew that wasn't practical. Tenants wanted to start their day when they wanted to start their day. So they said, let's get a group of our customers, the tenants who actually, who are actually complaining about it, and let's see what we can learn and dig a little bit deeper. Well, what they found out was it wasn't really the slow elevators. It was the impatience of the people anxious to get to work. So if they attack it from that angle, what they did was They put mirrors in the lobby all around the elevators, and people got so preoccupied looking at themselves and others in the mirror, they tend to forgot about the weight. Well, that's an example of what are you really, really, really focused on, and, and how do I make sure I maintain that focus? I live, I live on a beautiful golf course, and one of the toughest holes on the golf— on this golf course is a par 3 hole that's, uh, that's about, uh, 150 yards. And but, but it has something special. It's almost all water. So you're hitting your golf ball over— it's because it's, it's, uh, fronts a lake. It's a part of a lake. But you're hitting your golf ball almost the whole way over the lake to get to the other side. And many, uh, golfer has put their ball in that lake. But the smart golfers know you don't put your ball in the, in the lake if you stay focused. That's my point on, on the destination of that ball, and don't be distracted by stuff around. Grounding helps us stay away from those rabbit holes that kind of take us in the wrong direction or distract us from it. So it's all about, it's all about that.

Foundation. It's like living in the moment too, right? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Often find we're looking at so many different things, we forget about how fun it is to surf or play music, right? Because surfing is about the next wave, music is playing with each other. And if you're not grounded, like you said, in what that customer really wants, it's just look at themselves. That's right. Or the fact that you got to get over that body of water. We're forgetting even the innovation.

Absolutely, absolutely. It's staying focused on the mission, but it's also staying focused on the customer. I talk about in the book, be the customer. Now, I got that, I borrowed that line, be the customer, from Little League. Most of us had kids come through and be in Little League, and you know, the coach says, be the ball, be the ball. You know, when the ball's thrown from the pitcher, you want that kid— well, the reason why they say be the ball is because they want that kid to stay focused on that ball until it hits their bat. And so in much the same way, that kind of contentive focus is part of what helps you keep grounded. I like that.

It's, you know, the be the ball. And there's a lot about that thing being what, being the customer, right? Right. Being that experience. How would I do that?

How would I be? Or actually doing it. My wife's hairdresser, Johnny Adair, actually gets a permanent once in a while. And I go, Johnny, why? Because he does my hair as well. I said, why would you do that? He said, well, I realize when women get a permanent, It's one of the most awkward, uncomfortable things, embarrassing things they go through. So if I could get it done myself, then I'd kind of know what they went through. I could make changes in the experience so they— it wasn't such a negative experience. Well, that's an example of being the customer, literally standing in their shoes and experiencing as close as you can what they're going through.

Let's just hope that proctologists don't— that's a good point, that's a good point. I don't mind the perm, but the other one—

That's right. That's right. Some things I just want to hear about.

So let's go to number 3. These are great.

Oh, good. Discovery. Discovery is my word for risk-taking. You say, well, Chip, why didn't you say risk-taking? Because it's scary. It's scary. You know, in most organizations, it's kind of scary to take risk, and innovation requires that. You know, the whole concept of innovation is new. The word itself In the middle of it is innovation. The word is nova, meaning new. And so anytime we're trying to search for or be a part of something totally new, there's a scary side to it. And so discovery is all about how do we make the experience this, this something that's not so frightening. And my view is focus on, on, on the learning side, learning side. When I speak, I interviewed somebody at Pixar that said, we encourage our people to think of themselves as a clown on a high wire. Now think about that, a clown on a high wire. I am on a high wire, but I'm gonna be silly and fun and make it a different kind of experience. And so it's combining the sense of I got to take some risk-taking. But I also want to make sure that it's focused on learning because if I'm learning, hey, let's learn something brand new here and out of this. Now it takes the scariness out of the risk. And one of the examples I use in the book is my grandmother. It's sort of a metaphor, but my grandmother, she had chickens and I grew up on a farm and my house was about half a mile from her house there, my grandparents' house., and they had a chicken house, and, uh, the chicken house had all these little cubbies like kids have in school. And so the hen would get in the cubby, uh, and it's filled with straw, and they'd lay their eggs. And when I'd go visit my grandmother, I'd go pick up all the eggs that— and she— but for her to cook. And, uh, but except when they were going to have baby chickens, now it was a whole different deal. Now there was a little light that was turned on over the little cubby, and the hen wasn't interested in you coming in there and bothering her at all. So it was a little different deal. Well, right beside the chicken house was my grandmother's garden, and she always sang when she was out there working in the garden, gathering vegetables or fruits or fertilizing or whatever she did. She was always singing. And I used to wonder as a kid whether or not her singing had anything to do with the egg production. That the hens were going. But in many ways, part of what the partnership needs to create a relationship which is kind of like that. We're going to take some risk here, but we're going to have fun and we're going to learn a lot of things. And it's how I began to position this sort of like an incubation experience where I'm growing and I'm not just taking, taking risk. And so the risk-taking, the fear associated with it, is something that's very much a detriment to ingenuity and innovation. I'm always reminded of Gordon McKenzie, who was the creative director for Hallmark cards for many years, and he retired and he became an artist in residence in Overland Park, where Hallmark was headquartered, and he would tell stories. He wrote a book called Orbiting the Giant Hairball, which I thought was a cool title, But he'd talk about going into a grade school and he'd ask kids in the first grade, how many artists do we have? And every kid in the room would raise their hand. Then he'd get to about to the third grade and only about half of them would raise their hand. By the time he got to the fifth or sixth grade, he'd get one or two closet artists that would timidly raise their hand. And he's going, what happens between the first and the sixth grade to cause people to be so reluctant about being— owning— being an artist? It's because we— it becomes socialized out. And so in many ways, we have to create a relationship where we keep it in, where we keep that sense of it's okay to take risks, make mistakes. This is not picture day. We can make mistakes. It's okay. And so part of that whole component in the partnership is all about taking fear out of the workplace, as Deming said, to create an element of innovation.

It's funny how that all started from Deming. And now it's, we've changed it to so many different names and, you know, and started from Deming, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Now it's psychological safety. We take, oh yeah. So we don't blow up.

We give it funny names. Yeah. I guess it sounds more important than fear.

Exactly. That's all it is. And feeling safe enables you to be able to say things that need to be said. Yeah. Yeah. Because essentially, if you don't say them, you know, disaster can happen. Sure, sure. And that's— and the whole— that whole discovery phase too, you know, I love how you bring children into it. I love how— because children, it's that beginner's mindset, and we often shut that beginner's mindset down instead of opening up the discovery. So absolutely. So let's go to the fourth. Since we're at the third, let's go to the fourth.

Sure, sure, sure, sure. The next one is trust. And again, If you look at these great environments of creativity, trust is a big deal. How do we create an atmosphere where it's all about transparency? I had the wonderful opportunity to work with Lockheed Martin. The specific area of Lockheed I worked with was Skunk Works. Skunk Works is in Palmdale, California, north of LA. They are— well, when you ask them, what do you do here at Skunk Works? Their answer is they don't, they don't say, if I told you, I have to shoot you. But they say, did you see Star Wars? Oh yeah, I saw Star Wars. Well, that's what we do. We build, we focus on air defense 30 years from now. And so they're inventing cool, cool stuff way out there. And so I said, well, tell me, and I was working with a a general who worked at Lockheed. And I said, what is the most important features of this environment that you have here? And he goes, well, humility. I said, well, tell me more. I know what it means if a leader's humility, they're genuine, they're open. He said, well, really it's about humility, but it's all designed to create an atmosphere of transparency, atmosphere of authenticity. An atmosphere of truth. And I said, truth? Yeah, yeah, we are all about truth here. And, and I thought about that because what he was really talking about is being totally forthright, open, frank, and transparent. He was talking about the whole truth. And it sort of led me to thinking about how, you know, when you, you serve as a witness in a jury, in a trial, You're supposed to put your hand on the Bible and raise your right hand, and you say, I promise to tell the truth. And we don't stop there. You think about that. We don't say, I promise to tell the truth. We say, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God. Now you wonder why all that big rigmarole about 3 truths. Well, it's because people tend to hold back. They tend to not be everything. They need not to be open and honest. They tend to not be trustworthy. And so they tell half white lies. And so part of the important relationship with the customer is the degree to which there is total trust brought on in many ways by the whole truth. And I'll give you an example of how we live in a, in a not the whole truth environment. Back when we were flying in early March, I was— I landed, and, uh, the airline pilot came on the intercom and said, another on-time arrival with Mayday Airlines, or whatever it was. Well, I looked at my smartphone and we were 14 minutes late, and I said, wait a minute, on time? We're 14 minutes late? So when we got off the plane, the pilot was standing in the cockpit door, and I said, you know, we were 14 minutes late and you said we were on time. He said, well, the FAA gives us a little bit of a fudge factor out there because we don't have any way to control what happens out on the tarmac. I go, why don't you tell us that? Why don't you just be totally honest? I mean, you remember that great song in My Fair Lady. Can you imagine it going, get me to the church within 15 minutes of the wedding? I don't think so. But, but, but here again, we tend to have all kind of examples where we're not totally truthful. And what that does is create an atmosphere, that openness and transparency of trust. Critical in creating innovation.

It's incredible how much people tell their truth versus what the real truth, the whole truth is. Absolutely. Say, I'm on time, but I'm the greatest in the world. Nope, there's others who may be. That's right. That's right. Give me 15 minutes late, please. Yeah, it's number 5. Number 5, Chip.

Number 5 is passion. And, and you, you tell a lot about it by when you realize if dissect the word P-A-S-S-I-O-N, it's really three words. People don't think about it like that, but it's three words. It's pass, I, own. Meaning, how do I bring the best and most of who I am on, uh, to somebody else? How do I, how do I bring me, all of me, uh, to the situation? And what you find in innovative relationships is they're all energized and enthusiastic and excited about what they're about. And, and so it's Rollo May, the great philosopher, said there's an energy field between all humans, and we reach out in passion, it's met with an answering passion and changes a relationship forever. Well, in some ways, that's what it's all about, is how do I create this sense of, of excitement and give more because of that? Uh, my friend Seth Godin, you know Seth, you know, one of the best marketing minds that, uh, on the planet. But when he, he would do keynote sometimes speeches, he would say to his audience, uh, hold up your hand as high as you can. And of course, people would hold up your hand, and then he'd say, okay, now hold it up a little higher. Now inevitably, people would hold it up higher, and he goes, what's with that? Why did you hold it back? Why did you know? But we do. We sometimes hold back. And what you find is in those organizations that are renowned for great innovation and partnerships that are renowned for that kind of innovation, it's all about passion. It's all about generosity, giving more and being excited and energized and providing a sense of nobility. I call in the book, I talk about nobilizing others. Nobilize your customer. That means treat your customer like they're noble, like they're royalty. And so, that all creates that kind of treasured relationship out of which comes great innovation.

I always said that. It's funny you said royalty because I always called my clients the kings and queens of BPI. And that was a— this has been the same. Yeah. And they love that. Well, exactly.

I think that's— Rich Carlton says, ladies and gentlemen serving ladies and gentlemen. Same concept, right?

It's the truth. That's the truth and the whole truth. What a great session, Chip. It's the holistic approach really to getting inside the customer's imagination and then forging a relationship that's lasting and just brings us into the future. Passion, pass I on. It's creating that sustainability, right? Absolutely. Legacy. Good. Chip Bell, awesome to have you on. You're awesome. So many great learnings and secrets to this that I know will be of immense help to so many people.

I appreciate it. It's always an honor to be with you, Louis Carter. Thank you so much. Thank you, Chip.