Louis Carter and John Baldoni talk about

Hey, I'm here with John Baldoni, the author of Grace, which is an awesome book. And I wanted to talk about grace today. We're going to get into a great talk about what grace is and also some of the other books that John has done, like Moxie, and learning about what he's done in leadership and communications and the real feel he brings to companies, which I really admire and very much connects with what I believe and what my research is around emotional connectedness, psychological safety, creating great organizational cultures, and just having really solid leaders who are values-based, purposeful, and awesome inside their companies, which is what John really truly lives in the world. And he's a funny, awesome guy as well. So it's— and so I'm really cool. It's really— he doesn't believe it though. I saw him look at his face. He's like, nope, I'm not. That's how cool he is.

I know, it's a pleasure to be on there, and, and thanks. You know, as they say, life is easy, comedy's hard. But I'll try to get some laughs in here.

Let's give it a shot. Let's give it a shot. John, tell me more about, you know, let's talk about grace and what is grace. I was listening to one of the things that you'd said and it really resonated, which is, you know, in your recent Forbes article about really about bullying, right? And you know, when people say things, you know, perhaps they call you a name, but you said sticks and stones may break my bones, but words would never, you know, harm me, right? Something your mother said, your father. So tell me more about that.

Absolutely. Right, you know, and absolutely, you know, I'm sure you were taught that by your parents or your grandparents, and I hear my grandmother's voice saying that, but the sad truth is that, Louis, is that actually words can be very harmful, particularly in a professional or unprofessional environment, shall we say. So if we get back to the concept of grace, grace is my reaction to the hostility of, let's call it, anti-social media, as well as the gotcha culture that we have, and I firmly believe that there's more good in our world than there is evil. I think that good is drowned out. So grace is a celebration of the good things people do. I took it— my philosophy is while grace comes from certainly a faith-based concept and it's endemic in virtually every faith that I know of, and it's rooted probably in our DNA in the sense of altruism, but it's how we implement it. And so it's up to leaders in my position. I think good leaders, as your research points out, strive for connectedness, that authenticity with others. Grace is a facilitator of that. So, getting back to the concept of bullying, if someone is coming after you, don't engage. Simply just let it ride off you. If it becomes serious, of course, report it. But a lot of people just get their jollies by denigrating others. That's such a demotivating and also de-energizing way to run a workplace. And bosses who allow that kind of behavior are not only hurting the individuals who are the targets, they're hurting the enterprise. And they're creating a poor reputation. Grace, again, on the other hand, is this catalyst for the greater good, which means I will act with generosity, compassion, and treat people with dignity. And I will also act and energize my organization in positive means.

I like that— act and energize your organization in positive means. And it says so much. And, you know, how do we act and energize with positive means and connect it in with this larger organization system, right? You know, bake it into really workforce planning and leadership development, all of the talent management goodies that come with it.

Absolutely, and I know you come across this question because I've read your work, which is great, and we wrestle with, you know, organizations look great on paper and, you know, as our friend and colleague Marshall Goldsmith likes to talk about, succession planning is not putting people in boxes, you know, but it's a neat way of doing it, of course. So, and when we think about people being in slots and stuff, That is a dehumanizing thing, and I'm not saying that HR is dehumanizing people purposely. I don't mean that at all. But we're kind of overlooking what I like to say, the white space, the connection between those boxes, and that's where life occurs. That's where, frankly, that's where engagement occurs. And as you point out, that's where productivity happens. You know, it's the informal relationship, but also getting around working with people, not as a an entity per se, but as a human being. And grace facilitates that, that sense of connectedness, if you will.

Absolutely. And in Moxie, you talk about the X as being the X factor. And what I like about that is that that's really what brings together sort of behind the I, of course, innovation. It brings everything together in that way so that once you have that X factor, everything else becomes really simple because we always— yeah, go ahead.

And an X factor is my word. I mean, it's really about character, but it's a deeper form of character. Now leaders need to manifest character. Without character, there can be no leadership because there's no real truth. But beyond the X factor, there's other elements in that. It's your sense of ambition, wanting to achieve something, not at the expense of others, but for the organization, for your— say, frankly, for yourself. But it's also X factor is part of your creativity, what you bring to the party, how you can help it. And a lot of these things, one of the things I talk about, and I think I know you touch on, something, a concept I love is the concept of culture of service. How can I serve you? And that's not just related to a hotel. It's when you check in. But it's how can I be a better colleague? And in Grace, I talk about focus on better. You know, the early— I'm sorry, our first part of the year, we always talk about New Year's resolutions, which sadly, probably most are broken by this time of year. But how about we focus on better? So, you define better, what better means for you. It can be personal. I want to acquire a skill, but more essentially, I'd like to be a better colleague. So, what does that mean? If I work with you, Louis, how can I help Louis do his job better? How can we collaborate? First thing is start to listen. And the second thing is that Louis is a person. He might be my employee, but you know what? He's a living, breathing human being, and I'm going to assume the best in him before I make my prejudicial concept, which pollutes our mindset too often.

And I like it because it's a scientific mindset, right? We have these hypotheses we make, and they may or may not be true. And to what degree are they true, right? You say, are they really true? I have to test, have to continue testing, find out if it's really true. Give time, have a little bit longitudinal analysis, right? Over time, is this really true? And then if you see this kind of common behavior, help to change it, help to enable that kind of change with others. And then there's a point in time, I think, that it's kind of a pivot point for people as I see it, where they may be chipping away at their confidence every time something happens, right? Either a salesperson may be saying, oh, I'm seeing too much of this feedback happening, right, from clients or whomever, and they say themselves, they start doubting their own work, right? They doubt their work, they doubt others' work, they doubt the company, and now there's this point of inflection that happens, as I see it, is in saying, look, I've now hit the top, and now if I don't leave, I'll have diminishing returns, right? So—

Absolutely.

Yeah, it's like, how do you know when that point of inflection is happening? That's really what I want to talk about.

And I think you advocate, and because I know, that's where the manager gets involved. Is Louis worth salvaging? He was a good salesperson, his productivity has peaked, can he acquire new skills? Does he need to do this or does he need to move to another role? So, and that's, you know, that's the role of management/leadership. And rather than just saying, hey, you missed a quota this month, Louis, and boom. I mean, A, that's pretty costly because you've lost my investment in you for X amount of years, but it's demoralizing. It sends a real bad signal to the rest of the organization that one screw-up and you're dead. One of my favorite stories is in one of the books I talked about, it was former head of NASA when they, this was years and years ago, two back-to-back missions to Mars failed. The spacecraft exploded on impact. And they both went into, I believe the name of the head of NASA at that time was Charles Elachi, and they both submitted their resignation letters. And Elachi looked them down, up and down and goes, why would I fire you? I just invented, or I just invested $10 million in each of you. Now go back and get to work. And since then, missions to Mars have been very successful. So in other words, failure is part of a part of our DNA in a way because we need to experiment. If we're not experimenting, maybe we're not growing. But it's also, this is where the compassion comes in, where grace comes in. Rather than play this gotcha, you know, you're out of here, you know, I mean, come on. I mean, that's not a— who wants to work for a boss like that?

So, it's not— you can't make it to the top of Glassdoor with those kinds of ratings.

Absolutely.

So this is good, and I think, I think that's really a good point is, you know, in Japan too they call it "ijime," "iwi-jime," bullying, right? And it's a common workplace attitude because if you don't fit in with this specific kind or way of being, knowing, believing, then basically you're made fun of and there's terrible things that could happen. And so I think, you know, this kind of Beginning of this kind of anti-bullying phase is really important. It happens at the top. It happens in the middle, middle up. It happens all over. And so I'm— and also, if we look at the workforce in the next 10 years, it can be very, very different than it ever has been. Even this year versus last year, the Bureau of Labor Statistics is showing how roles are changing dramatically. And we look at children and how they're thinking, knowing, being now, and how that will change in 10 years. Both the, we call it, you know, there's the cognitive diversity and there's a neurodiversity of the workforce. Sure. So it's very different. And what happens in 10 years when you have all this neurodiversity and how are we going to interact with people when they're vastly different than us?

Right. And I think that's where grace comes in because grace is its root is if we think about catalyst for a greater good, where does, where does the concept of greater good come? It comes from understanding. Where does understanding come from? From listening and from connectedness. And you know, so often we, you know, in the roles that you and I play, Louis, we can easily fall into the advice trap. And I think that's a book title by our colleague Matthew Bunge Steiner. And so, you know, the first step is simply to be there. Be available and have a conversation if conversation is warranted. Build trust before you dump on someone, or not dump on someone, but give them an information overload, if you will. So, and I think grace is that to me, I've used this term before, but it's the facilitative aspect. It's looking at the positive, looking at the greater good of others. It's also something which ignore the slights. You know, sweep this gotcha culture. You and I can be going along, really well and all of a sudden you say something, maybe in jest, and I love jest and humor in the workplace, that's great, but maybe I take it the wrong way and you say, "Well, Baldoni, you really screwed up this time," and I go, "What did he mean by that?" And so I'm gonna come back at you and then it just escalates into back and forth. And even if you did mean to slight me, hey, I'm gonna be the bigger person, I'm gonna look at the bigger picture. I'm not going to engage in that. I have my own values and I'm going to exemplify those values. And then you become an example in your workplace of a person who takes the high road.

I like that. And it kind of connects into this living the change you wish to be in the world. And of course, Gandhi shared it with everybody else, right? And it's true because this kind of cycle or system that occurs with the blame game or the hatred game, the advice game, like Michael said, and, you know, the advice trap, right? And, you know, do we constantly give advice without creating rapport, you know, without expressing our own vulnerability and who we are, you know, first, you know, and all of a sudden when we do that, we end up becoming someone who's vilely hated versus somebody who could be really of help.

Right, and you know, that's what I like the work of our colleague Tasha Urech, because she talks about, you know, the well-intentioned people can piss people off, you know, and, you know, send the wrong signal. It's like, well, I didn't mean that, you know, and that's because of a lack of self-awareness. I meant to do X. The good thing is Tasha's research points out that if you have created a bond or link, a trust with your people, they'll cut you some slack, you know, and they'll say, hey, you know, you're out of line, or did you really mean to say that? No, no, I didn't mean to say that, you know, that wasn't what I wanted. And so that's something that is important and we need to understand it. And so, you know, some of the things that we're talking about are so obvious, Louis Carter, that they're easily ignored, you know. I mean, the statement that you said about Gandhi, well, I've heard that before, you know, but isn't it a platitude? Well, you could make it a platitude, But how about trying to live toward it? You know, and it gets back to this concept of, I said, focus on better. I'm gonna screw up, you know. If I want to live by a new mantra or my value system, I'm gonna make mistakes, but I'm not gonna stop trying. I'm gonna say, hey, I messed up, apologize, and go forward.

That's awesome too, because you look at this kind of fixed versus growth mindset that you're describing, and you know, when we stay in the fixed mindset, we're always worried and we're anxious and we're feeling— we're talking about things that we did incorrectly and keep beating ourselves down about it. We blame others for doing something perhaps they did by accident, right? And instead saying, like you said, focus on better. Focus on better. How can I get better next time? And like Marshall says, right? Marshall Goldsmith said— and Tasha, I love you mentioned Tasha. I love her work on self-awareness as well. And it's sort of when you kind of have that understanding and others share that with you, they'll help you along. That's really— and you forge these bonds with people who help you with your self-awareness and your circle of self-awareness. And everyone gets better as a result of it to move toward that.

You know, and I think your research shows this is— it's in this— I know this is one of the things that you champion— it's put some humanity in the workplace, you know, getting back to this kind of organizational structure with People in neat little boxes, which is great on a chart, but that's not how life works. And so let's put— I've worked with an executive who uses the phrase, give people permission to care. And so you and I are colleagues. If it's a culture of service, whatever, we're there for one another. I have your back. Good teams do this all the time. And so when you have that trust, you know one another and you're there for them, and you know that they're imperfect beings. You know that I'm gonna make mistakes, you're gonna make mistakes, but I'm not gonna jump on you. I may call you out on it and that's fine, but I'm gonna call you out because I know you can get better or you need to be called out on it, you know, and I'm gonna do it in a way that you can— is actionable, not in a way that denigrates you.

So, and it's really at that point it becomes an honor, a respect factor to give that help Instead of saying, well, I'm not going to tell them that they have, you know, they have a sort of, you know, something on their face from the breakfast, right? Well, thank you for telling me. You know, you made me— I went ahead and we hung out all this morning and I had no idea it was there. You're helping someone look better, to be better, to be— to get to the next phase. And perception is everything. And if when you get better, others get better. I heard something great the other day. I'm a big fan of Howard Stern. I'm going to come out and say it. I love Howard Stern. I've been listening to him for over 25 years. And one of the things Howard was talking about and with Robin was the really talented people help others, right? We think of Eddie Murphy and all the people that Eddie Murphy helped. We look at all, all of the, you know, Bill Gates now helps everybody, right? Um, you know, the greatest musicians, uh, like Billy Joel, he's, he doesn't come out on stage and say, okay, everybody's just get away from me. Cause he could easily, he's one of the greatest musicians of all time. Of course. I'm Billy Joel. I just wrote, you know, I did Down Easter Alexa. I'm cool. He doesn't. He helps all these musicians who are near him in his sphere, and all you have to do is be near him.

You know, and I'm glad you get to that. You're touching on something called presence in a way, and where presence— Springsteen was someone I admire for that. You know, that his presence means he's giving to his audience and his team, his bandmates are in the same spirit of his, but he has that spirit of generosity about him that draws fellow musicians to him. And I think all the greats are like that because, you know, as a musician yourself, you know, you can't play in a band of one, you know, you need teammates. And boy, if you mess around with your band, they'll hang you out to dry, you know. But in a more positive sense, it's being there for them and they want to be there And together the group of you produce terrific music, more than you're capable of producing as a, quote, ordinary band. You're doing something extraordinary because you all like playing together.

Exactly. And then when you're generous with them, and he's done that, Ben Folds is similar. He and his bands and people who work with him, they've had falling out and they've come back together, the Five. And he immediately, his publicist, if you have somebody, you know, I know he has this great story of Ben Folds when, you know, there was a child who was autistic who had some developmental disorders. Bless you. You okay? So, and then who, and he basically, he said he had listened to one of Ben Folds' songs and got super excited about them. And so he started practicing, the kid started practicing, got really good at it. So his parents said, well, for his birthday, they would like, he called up Ben Folds' publicist, for his birthday, they'd like your son to come and play with you. To learn from you in your next concert. So immediately Ben Folds heard about it, within 10 minutes he put him on the next plane to his next concert tour, right? He was up on stage playing the song for Ben Folds that he loved, and it gave him, it gave somebody who didn't have really opportunities, who had been perceived of as different from all the other kids, an opportunity to be part of something large.

You know, and that's such a good story because what Ben Folds did was a very simple act of kindness. I'd call it grace. It's a very simple thing for him to do, but for the life of that child, that could be life-altering in a very positive way. And I think what we take away from that is what we might think is simple has great impact. And this is a lesson for leaders, as you and I know, that when you connect with them, even momentarily, but it's genuine and sincere and helpful and considerate, you really send out a signal that this person, A, has my back, but this person is special. And the way you pay them back, obviously do your job, but pay it forward to someone else. Live that kind of example. And I know you and I have worked with executives that do that. Our own Alan Mulally is a classic example of someone who gave, gives much of himself, and it radiates to other people, the people he lead, and they want to do everything they can to help the team succeed.

So, and he did. You think about the, you know, the, the model he had for Ford, and the stock price rose over 11 100%. He has the exact percentages, I know. He'll say 11, but you know, and then you see the results of such a culture and you say to yourself, wait a second, this really works. You know, being nice really works.

And that's— I'm glad you mentioned that because, you know, your research shows this, that, you know, we talk about the hard stuff and the real stuff. The hard stuff are the numbers or whatever And, you know, the soft stuff is the world in which you and I live. Well, actually, the soft stuff is the hard stuff. You know, the numbers are cut and dry, you know, but it's if you focus on the soft stuff, the hard things fall in line, you know, and it really does make a difference. And interesting thing about it, it doesn't cost anything except time, except a commitment. I'm going to invest in you. I'm going to connect with you. In a way that's possible.

I like how you said that when you focus on the soft stuff, the hard stuff gets easier. I know that, and I've worked with some executives now where, you know, especially where they're looking at these really complicated, uh, you know, matrix structures and, you know, executives driving down these massive amounts of goals. And I said, hang on, let's, let's take a step back and So I looked at some of the work of John Doerr, which I really love, and, uh, you put John Doerr's, his OKR work, um, which started really at inside the world of Silicon Valley and, you know, as well as, you know, dates back 50 years into high tech and just a simple work of objectives and key results and connecting that to a larger vision or purpose of the soft skills. And it, and, you know, even Bono uses OKRs. Right.

So, you know, I mean, it gets, if you talk Silicon Valley, it gets back to David Packard and William Hewlett, Bill Hewlett. I mean, you know, management by walking around. I mean, this is that they built a wonderful tech company, but they were people persons and they never lost that sense of it. And, and that's where organizations can be dehumanizing, not— and I don't think purposely, but they evolve that way. And that's why they need people like you to remind them there's a better way.

Us both. It's what we're doing, right? Some reason why we're doing all this in the world, it is to remind people. And, you know, it's— we kind of have this— I think it's also important, you, you, you and I, you have this like a barometer. So, you know, when we're working with executives, when you work with executives, are there times when you say to yourself, you know what, that just isn't the right way? And you know that if you did it that way, it really may be harmful or may— it may not help and, you know, be at the highest best interest. It's This is barometer, right? It's seen that you say, right?

And, you know, I'd like to say, you know, in my executive coaching, I like to say I'm there for my per— my— the person I'm coaching. Part of the time is, and I say this explicitly, I'm going to be a cheerleader for you. But if all I do is lead cheers, I'm not helping you. And so our role is to speak truth to power. And we have— I mean, they're— they hire us to, to give our best perceptions based on research and 360s and talking to other colleagues and stuff and our own experience, giving the straight talk. And sometimes the straight talk will hurt, but that's okay because coaching is that process. I like to think of getting outside your comfort zone because if you're not willing to get outside your comfort zone, why are you going through coaching? You know, I mean, you take a simple athletic skill, whether you're learning to revamping your golf swing or learning a dance step, whatever, it's going to be painful at times, but it's a process. And if you trust your coach, you trust your instructor, you'll get there in the best way you can.

So I love it. We've said so much today, and we've done— we mentioned all of our, our, our friends and colleagues, Tasha, Michael, and Alan, and, uh, Bono and Billy Joel. I mentioned Howard Stern. We, we brought in a lot of so many— a melange, a salad bowl of leadership. I appreciate all of your time.

Well, you're speaking my language because I, if anything, I do— my whole process toward leadership is probably something I learned osmotically both through Peter Drucker, and that's stories. You use stories of people from everyday experience or history to draw life lessons or leadership lessons, and that's, you know, I think what we've done today.

So, and that's the greatest thing in this book too, is that there's leadership lessons in Grace. There's so much to learn and live inside of your company. Check it out, Grace by John Baldoni. Awesome book, highly recommend it. And thank you so much, John Baldoni, for joining us today. It's awesome to be with you.

Thank you. Thanks for being there. Thanks for having me on, Louis Carter. It's a pleasure. Keep on keeping on.