Strategies to Improve Employee Sentiment and Performance: Mark Fogelman, Fogelman Properties

Welcome to the Most Loved Workplace Leaders Show. Today, we're thrilled to have Mark Fogelman join us. Mark is at the helm of Fogelman Properties overseeing their diverse operating divisions and spearheading the expansion of their acquisition platform. Since joining the company in 1994, Mark has held various leadership positions, becoming president in 2001. With a BSM degree from Tulane University's Freeman School of Business, Mark is deeply involved in industry and community, serving on several boards, including the National Multi-Housing Council and New Memphis Institute. Join us as Mark shares insights on what makes Fogelman a most loved workplace. I'm your host, Louis Carter, founder of Most Loved Workplace. The Leader Show brings together executives and leading thinkers to bring into focus our collective purpose and passion. To what we do and where we do it. The search for occupational fulfillment, happiness, pride, and passion starts here. Have the Mark Fogelman on with us today. This is going to be exciting. You get, you get the Fogelman at, at Fogelman today, the real source. And to learn about what Fogelman is all about, what they do in the industry, how they've become an industry leader And really what it's all about right now to really, to, in recruitment retention in a challenging environment yet, is he's just killing it. Marc is just killing it. So you have to learn from him today because there's just phenomenal things to learn about how he became the Most Loved Workplace, what they do in the industry, and just, just let's get at it. Marc, great to see you. Thanks, thanks for coming on The Leader's Show. And, and great to see you in Memphis.

Great. Good to meet you, Lou, and very pleased to be here. And once again, want to thank the organization for honoring our company as one of the 100 Most Loved Workplaces. It's been a— talk more about what it's meant to our company and how we're using it, but it's been great. But a little background on our company. We're in what's called the multifamily space, which means it's the housing part of real estate, the housing sector. So we own and operate apartment communities, and these are typically 2 to 300-unit communities located primarily in the Southeast, Southwest. And we do everything from sales and marketing to maintenance to accounting for these investment properties. And then we're also involved with construction management, investment management. We call that, you know, cradle to grave, the whole process of sourcing the investments. But the core of our business has been operations and the people side and really creating community for our residents and our associates. A little background on the business: we just finished our 60th year in business last year, very honored. Brother Rick and I helm the company today. It was founded by our father, Avron Fogelman, in 1963. So we're the, the second generation of a business, hopefully many more generations to come. The family was a traditional immigrant family. Grandfather came over in the early 1910s, '20s from Poland, immigrated to Ellis Island, entered first grade as a 13-year-old, could not speak English, graduated high school on time, got an education, but was very working class, humble beginnings, you know, pushed his children to get an education, and they were entrepreneurs. And my dad started the company. My brother Rick and I joined, um, on my 30th year and Rick's 34th year. We took the company over and purchased it in the late '90s. Father was a big developer. I'd say he was a pioneer in the industry in the Southeast. There weren't really companies with multiple apartment communities across multiple areas. Recognize where our father was really an entrepreneur and, and the developer. Rick and I pushed our management attributes and expanded that, and then investments and acquisitions. And today, as we sit here today, we have about 110 communities across 13 states, Southeast, Southwest, and Midwest, most everywhere between Florida and Texas and in between. Business was in our blood growing up. It's a dinner room conversation. Anything we did on the weekend, if there was an apartment community nearby us, we drove through there with our father. He would, if it was our property, my mom took notes while he said, Wendy, you know, you know, the trash is by this building or the landscaping's too high. And that kind of just, you know, emanated through us in high school and college. We worked, um, summer jobs. Rick got to do construction. I did, I did apartment leasing and then grew into the business. And then fortunately we've been able to put our mark into a business today. And it's been very rewarding. 650 to 700 employees at any given time, and just multi-generations of employees with family members in the business. And also creating community for our residents and making it more than just four walls and a ceiling. So that gets us to today.

That's awesome, Mark. You know, we have similar backgrounds, actually. Grandfather from Kiev started an insurance agency in '29. Uh, so, and, and grandmother from Poland, so it's, it's funny. And yeah, it didn't quite, you know, very interesting, you know, the, the, the, the kind of rags to riches Horatio Alger story, right, for your grand— your father. And, um, it's just incredible how you made that part of, you know, your— the fabric of your family and your community. And you have done that since really growing up. So the skill that you have, you've gone well beyond the 10,000 hours early on in your life, and now you're into the many more than 10,000 hours in terms of your expertise, skill, and thought leadership in this area with 600 employees at any given time, multi, uh, families, right? Not only the housing, but also in your company itself and your dedication to community. Uh, we've done a lot with community. As well, in terms of community service, volunteering, a lot of work you do at Fogelman. And now in, as you said, 60th year, is that right?

61st year, yep, last year. And what was, you know, what was really ironic or apropos is that it was during the week of our 60th anniversary celebration last year, we had about 250 of our associates in town for it that received notification that we had been chosen as one of the top 100 companies by Newsweek. And then the fact we are one of the few real estate companies in the industry was really great. And it's really, you know, looking— Rick and I were talking yesterday and looking back on it, you know, it's our industry is incredibly cyclical and typically we have boom and bust and very few companies have sustained and been battle-tested through that time. And we've, you know, learned to persevere and prepare for challenging times and not get ahead of ourselves and not overgrow. But really, the constant has been our people all along. So this award really was honoring our folks that have been there on the front line with this, and we've hopefully given them the support to make them successful, make them successful on that end. But that's really been the— so celebrating that award with our associates was, was really special to us.

Sounds good. You know, it's so important with recruitment retention these days too, is to have that designation, you know, 4 times more likely to recruit, to retain more, perform better. And, you know, over 92% of candidates choose most loved workplaces, right? Which is, it's just crazy. So it's really good stats. 60 acts of kindness because of those 60 years. What was that like? You had the, and it resulted in 100 AOKs. Acts of kindness and 1,000 hours of community service. That's a lot of work in volunteering, community service. How did, you know, it's a part of the fabric of your company too. It's a lesson for a lot of companies to learn is that you can integrate acts of kindness, good things, sustainability, social responsibility, when it makes sense for business as well. And that's a good thing.

Yeah, I mean, there's no doubt it's been part of the fabric of our company for years. And We've noticed massive uptick in employee engagement, you know, when it, when it becomes a non-work, punching-the-clock type item. And, you know, our legacy goes back to the '70s, actually, where our father actually offered free college scholarships to local universities for anybody that showed the effort and had minimal grades and desired and stayed problem-free with that. And thousands of children took advantage of that. And then our current-day iteration is called Fogelman Cares, which is an employee-led, associate-led effort that, that up until this past year, had always chosen one organization nationally. We did Ronald McDonald House, we did food pantries, we did Make-A-Wish and others that all of our communities around the country supported and raised monies for. Then they were able to award their local chapter with that. In preparation for our 60th anniversary, we launched the 60 Acts of Kindness. And it really, you know, it went viral where everybody competed with each other. And one organization, you know, one property would go start a volleyball tournament to try to raise money. Others would bring, you know, food pantry work, soup kitchen work, donuts to the firehouses in town. But everybody tried to outdo each other. We ended up with over 100 acts of kindness, 1,000 service hours contributed. And today, that's across 13 states. And today, you know, every month there's a new idea that comes out. And it seems like that became very contagious. And that was more, you know, a bigger moment of pride for us than the business successes that year.

Outstanding! You know, the spark model, which is what Love Workplace Index is all about, we surveyed you on, has respect as the third, right? And one of the things you mentioned about respect is that you have a Fun Committee, right?

Yes, sir.

And this is very interesting here. And tell us more about this: rewards, giveaways, recognition, annual leadership conference, virtual education. Tell me what is, you know, what makes that special for you? What has really, you know, been a standout part of Fun Committee that has made you particularly happy or proud of your company because of what's come out of it.

Yeah, and that encompasses all of our, you know, all of our engagement events, everything from Fogelman Fridays, where we're wearing jeans and a t-shirt on Fridays and tennis shoes, to the different events. We had a big eclipse watching party, eclipse viewing party, a couple during the eclipse, to bowling, baseball outings, to monthly, quarterly awards. Celebrations or annual conference. And we have a committee that is typically, you know, Rick and I typically have numerous requests every few weeks of these, of making sure we can clear these dates to get it going. But it's just, you know, it's a very stressful time. Of course, the economy changing now and most businesses with inflation, it's difficult. So trying to take the edge off work has been very, very important. I think, you know, trying to show the human side as well in that. And we've, you know, once again, the uptick we've had in all of our surveys and response has been very good. Just making life beyond, beyond, you know, making life for associates beyond being just an employee number, you know, 122 at this property. You know, it's a name, it's a family, they have a birthday, an anniversary, and you want to celebrate all these things. It's been true to that.

Yeah, the, also the career achievement part too. That was the Connected Outcomes part of our spark. And, you know, for career achievement, you have Careers Week, Right? You have an employee assistance program, you know, simulation training for maintenance team, your centralization pilot, how— and onboarding. So how is your onboarding, recruitment a little bit different or better, really, to enable that Most Loved Workplace and connect into that culture that you have at Fulgham that's so successful?

Yeah, yeah, I think, I mean, we check the boxes in all those areas. But I think the one thing is part of that, and I don't mean to redirect, but it kind of encompasses that, is our, is the culture aspect of it that I think we're differentiated in that. And, you know, as part of that, every part of every new associate, first thing they do, and even we have an executive committee meeting this morning, and our first topic is status of corporate culture and what are we doing to enhance it. And we really, again, an employee-led effort many years ago to identify what is our culture and what does it mean to us. We came up with 4 items, and we actually have a culture card. I don't know if you can, you know, see this right here, but it probably doesn't show up well, but there's a culture card everyone carries with the 4 most important points to us. The first one being we demonstrate a high degree of integrity in everything we do.. And we typically try to show that, and it's really most important when no one's watching because that's really when you show who you truly are. So we try to demonstrate that. That can be as simple things as, you know, making sure that, you know, your leftovers in the refrigerator go where they go. If someone drops a $10 bill, that someone finds the finder for it. But just really going above and beyond that, if extra, you know, the extra deposits are returned to residents as soon as possible. So always being above board, transparent on that. The second being personal concern for each other. Like, this one really emanates with me because every one of our 600 associates is, again, you know, there's a family behind that. There's celebrations, there's weddings, there's births, there's sad times of loss. And I think what makes a company unique and not just a machine or commodity is really knowing those relationships and knowing names. I mean, it's getting very— I get very stressed out because the more I go visit properties, the larger we get, it's getting much harder to keep track of everyone's names. And I have my cheat sheets and all that, but those things mean so much to us. And Melissa Smith, our SVP, reminds me every week. She's like, you know, so-and-so noted that you wrote them on their birthday or you called them. And those are the things I get really excited about. So the personal aspect is very important. The third was concern for our community. We talked about Fogelman Cares and other efforts, but being good corporate citizens out there. And once again, the goal wasn't just employee engagement in that, but we found that that's really been the sticking point, that our associates really enjoy that. And lastly is also being really, really good at what we do. And I think that's where the business aspect comes, because despite all the social welfare and benefits we're doing, there still is a business, a business aspect, because we got to have, be viable from financial side to support this. So being experts at what we do, and I think looking at 61 years being battle-tested, we've hit numerous recessions and we've pushed through it and strived. We've not overleveraged the company and we've been responsible citizens. So those are the 4 culture points that resonate with everyone. It's the first thing on onboarding. It's the first thing we talk about at company meetings, and it's what we try to demonstrate. And really it's, you know, bottom-up, top-down That's what I think makes us unique, and that's allowed us to attract, retain, and thrive.

That's great. You know, in that 4, you mentioned family. It's a big deal, right? And knowing your employees and, and, you know, on an everyday basis, making that effort that you do to know the people who support your success. And you do that, you know, as you scale up and you get to 600. A lot of CEOs want to know this, by the way. They're not— this is not something that is atypical, right? It's, it's difficult, challenging. To, to be able to scale up and see how do you get to all 600 in different locations in so many properties. So tell me some of your secrets for that. Like, how do you do that as you get larger?

Yeah, I mean, I'll just say that's been one of the most challenging parts. And, you know, and I look back, we're now 32,000 units, 110 communities. I'd say, you know, 15, 20 years ago we were 10,000 units. You know, it was definitely a lot more in the ball with touch and relationship. And it's gotten harder and harder. So empowering others to try to carry that message is very important. But I'd say a lot of it's been restraining our growth. I think, you know, if there's, if there's missteps we've probably made early on, you know, in the younger, less mature years of running the business with my brother, you know, growth, growth, profitability were such a driver. And we quickly realized that, you know, without the people and the engagement, You know, it's not sustainable. So for that reason, you know, we've seen a lot of our competitors double, triple in size. We were a very, I'd say, large, even on a national, national level up until 5 or 10 years ago. And now, and that way we're a mid-sized regional company, and there are companies now with 500,000 apartments under management there. But I just don't think they can manage the personal touch in there. So our growth has been defined with, but how, how big can we be and still be good and still, and still have quality? And I don't think that size and quality are scalable. I know there's technology out there, other people, you know, talk about, you know, BI, AI, data sets and everything they're doing to allow them to scale their businesses, but there's still a personal aspect of that business. And whether it's knowing our associates, knowing our customers, Letting our investors be reachable to them. I look very much going to the grocery store now with self-checkout and I see the people so confused and one thing goes wrong and there's no one to help and you just miss the days of that personal touch. And I think about our apartment communities also and I say, "God," because right now I've got a daughter, for example, moving to D.C. and trying to get an apartment community and we can't talk to a person. Everything's done online, everything's done through through chatbots, and we just want to know things simple like, where is the closest grocery store? You know, where can we get her furniture we can rent from and such? And getting a person is so important. And I think about our communities where we try to know the residents' names, we try to know if they have their dog's names, if they're out of town, they need someone to keep in touch with, keep an eye on their property. Yeah, that's creating community. And I think that, you know, despite technology scaling That will make a difference. And I think that's going to be our niche going forward, not having to be the biggest company, but being the most personal company.

Kerry Gilliam just asked the same question. I think it's a good segue in terms of, is that some of your lessons, right, from your father or grandfather that you've learned? And what, you know, in terms of what you've brought to being a most loved workplace?

No doubt. I mean, it was the, it was the, it was the, I mean, I think every, every generation evolves. And, you And to them, and I'd say it was much more of a, the industry wasn't mature, there wasn't technology back in those days and it was all a manual business, but it was just the commitment to excellence, a commitment to the associates. We just had an associate retire 2 months ago after 46 years in the business. And that's Miss Sally Robinson, she owns a property called Cherokee Cabanas. She had 3, um, she had 4 children all born at our properties. 3 of them work for the company, you know, and a brother. And she was so proud of the company at every company event, you know, she stood up and this goes back to my father's era also and talked about what the company meant to her, that through the company she educated her children, you know, she, she, they lived good lives. She funded weddings, unfortunately funerals as well. But what the company meant to her. And then at every company function, she would get up and sing Amazing Grace to everybody. But it was more that touch of just being people. And I think I learned that from my father, you know, and also grandfather in the day. And that's what we've tried to keep in the fabric. And no doubt it's difficult, and we stub our toe plenty as we've gotten larger and scaled. But I think our size will be governed by how far we can spread that message. If not, we just become company X. And that's really, you know, regardless of the money you can make and this or that, you know, for Rick and I, the personal aspect of it's the most rewarding part.

And that's the key, is making that a part of your business success, isn't it? Right? Making Most Loved Workplace a part of your business success. And it sounds like that's exactly how you do it, right? Yeah, you're trying to do it. And, uh, that's funny, that's what Zachary said. Zachary's talking about a lot of companies from Most Loved Workplace, you know, types are maintaining their culture through growth. And you answered this You know, how have you maintained that culture? And sounds like it's, it's been working through you, really, right? And your brother and going and— tell me more about how, how you've done that at scale.

Yeah, I mean, I guess at scale, it's been, it's just been having incredible associates spread the message. You know, Rick and I have, of course, after, you know, 30, 30 and 35 years in the business and being across, we can't be everywhere. At once. And really, we've really, as the business has grown, we've, we have people smarter than us working for us today that are doing a lot of the day-to-day. But I think it's really empower— empowering and carrying that message. And as once again, I said, our, you know, we had an executive committee meeting this morning, and number one on the agenda is status on corporate culture. You know, what can we do? And one of the things we identified this morning, you know, for example, is that, you know, we're in a very challenging time right now. In the industry, seeing some weakness after 15 years of growth, and it's making sure that, you know, for every, for every question we have about trends, that we have 2 or 3 positive things to say as well. And really, that's how you spread that. And I think when we do get out to the properties, it's making sure there's a name with the company. But, you know, the company's become much, much more and above than Rick and I and a Fogelman. I mean, the Fogelman is the culture, has to be our last name, but Fogelman is 600 people out there who call us family.

Absolutely. There's no doubt. I mean, and going back, and this is kind of the, this is one of the last things that I wanted to say. And what else for you? Is there something else you want to mention that you prepared that to others, or even to your employees, because they're, they're listening now. So, right, what would you like to say to them, right, about being a Most Loved Workplace, about people who are interested in becoming a part of your team, right?

Yeah.

What do you want them to hear?

Yeah, I think just the, you know, the, the validation of, of the screening criteria we went through to receive this award and first being certified and then being chosen out of a, you know, 100 companies, only a few of our industry, then, and a lot of it was, as, as you mentioned, associate-driven in terms of surveys and feedback. So, you know, you can read, read reviews and nobody does things perfect. And I think we stub our toe a lot, but But we try to, you know, learn from our mistakes and move forward. And we'd love, love to have, um, you know, as many willing new associates as possible. You know, we're in a crazy industry where I'm embarrassed to say that turnover, associate turnover in our industry is roughly 50%, which is just crazy to think that you, you go through the, uh, we have recruiters, we recruit, we onboard, we train, and then you lose half the people. So to even be 40% is well above, and we want to be the employer of choice, you know, with that. So our numbers are better than the industry, but can be a lot better than they are today to think that there's that much turnover. But I think what we've, you know, what we've gotten out of this award and the recognition is so humbling. But we've been in business 61 years, and I think we've seen the good times and the bad times, and we We know never to get too exuberant. We want to be here. I personally feel, and Rick does too, responsibility to the families that work for us, knowing that a lot of the families depend on the incomes of these associates, the insurance. You know, it's amazing when people tell us about their 401 contributions and how, you know, they've funded lifestyle and retirement and such. And that is a personal responsibility. So I would say that, you know, we're here For you, hopefully, you know, the results have spoken that we've gotten some validation, but we're just going to work as hard as we can to maintain and sustain what we've built.

Love that, Mark. You know, President of Fogelman Properties, Mark Fogelman, it was so great to have you here today. The social responsibility that you have for your employees, your community, for their livelihood, for your customers, of course, and management, and just the incredible enterprise that you've created with your family really speaks volumes to this, the fabric of and culture that you're living today. It's actually the American dream. It's part of the American dream, very much so. And thank you so much for joining us, Marc Fogelman, today on The Leader's Show at Most Loved Workplace. Great.

Thank you. Thank you. It's good.

It was good