But What About Socialization? Manisha Snoyer Debunks Homeschooling Myths

Foreign. Hi everyone, I'm Manisha and this is Teach your kids. And I am very excited to talk about one of my favorite topics, socialization. Socialization is such a rich topic and it's something that comes up so often when people are thinking about homeschooling their child and also in school. And so I felt like we were kind of talking around the issue in the latest interviews. And I really wanted to go in depth with this issue and help any parent listening understand how you can build a rich, vibrant, wonderful social life for your child and for you too, as a parent, because that's also really important. We can't be homeschooling in a void or sending our child to school in a void. It really does take community to raise a child well. So we're going to talk about that today. First of all, I have to tell you one of my biggest pet peeves. Often I'm on a channel like Twitter or Reddit and inevitably someone will say that they're thinking of homeschooling and another person will respond. I mean, I could always bet there's going to be this one response where someone says if you homeschool your kids, you're doing them a disservice because they're never going to have friends. And I know this because one time I met a homeschooler and they were really weird and very antisocial and therefore all homeschoolers are weird and antisocial. So there is so much wrong with this response. First of all, you have a sample size of 1. Someone is saying they're thinking of homeschooling and this other person is responding because they met one homeschooler at one point in history out of 5 million homeschoolers and they found that that one homeschooler was weird and therefore all homeschoolers are weird and antisocial. For me, that is not an evidence based response. I have met hundreds of homeschoolers over the last seven years. I will tell you that some of them are the most confident, self possessed children I have ever met in my life. They have tons of friends. Most of them tell me they have too many friends. And I've also met homeschoolers who are having trouble making friends or don't feel like they connect with people in their area. The same is in school. Does everybody you know go to school have tons of friends? Are you honestly going to tell me that you've never met someone that you considered weird at school? No. That argument just doesn't simply hold up and Anyone who's going to tell you that homeschoolers are all weird and antisocial, I'm sorry, but that person is prejudiced. And that person has not met very many homeschoolers, guaranteed. So I really resent this argument. And I always see it come up. There's always someone who says it in any conversation about homeschooling. Now, on the other side, I also see parents who say they're thinking about homeschooling. They might feel confident about curriculum, but what about socialization? And it's a very honest question, because there is this prejudice about the lonely, antisocial homeschooler. So what's exciting is that when you are homeschooling, when you are doing modular learning, you have this freedom to curate your child's education, to make your child's education the best that it could possibly be. And part of that is socialization. Socialization is such a critical component to a high quality learning experience. What do children learn when they're playing? They learn to think critically. They learn to solve problems. They learn academic skills like math when they're playing blocks with their friends. There's just, it's. It's such an important part of education that so often gets ignored. And so it's really important that we think about not just is my child going to be socialized if they homeschool, but how can I provide them with the best possible social experience available? And for some people, that might mean school. School offers some elements of socialization. I don't know, however, that school is necessarily going to be the best socialization for your child. Many people see it as the default option. And there are pro a set group of people that's already been, you know, figured out for you. If so much the same, if you went to a church or a Zen center, or were involved in volunteering at your local soup kitchen, there is a community that is there for you. You don't have to create your own community. You're merely stepping into a community that already exists. So there's that ease of community. So that's one helpful component of school. However, if we look a little bit deeper, it's not necessarily true that school is the best social environment for every child. Some children feel extreme anxiety when they go to school. In general, if you go to a typical school, your child will be in a classroom with children of the same age. Well, one thing that we know that is for healthy social development, children need to be exposed to people of a variety of ages. They need to learn from older peers who may have mastered skills that they haven't yet they need to learn from mentors. A lot of socialization happens through modeling, especially in the younger ages. And let's face it, parents are probably going to have better social skills than a young child. It's good for children not to just be interacting with peers, but observing others as they're growing up and seeing what are their social skills, how are they relating, what are their relationships like with their parents. An intimate, healthy relationship with a parent helps inform other relationships in a child's life. And often if a child is all day at school, they don't really get that much time to interact with adults or to see other adults interacting socially. So back to school. I mean, there are definitely pros and cons. Another problem with school is that often there's only 20 to 30 minutes of recess. We know that children really need a lot more time to play in order to build that cognitive development. If you are sending your child to school because you think socialization is better, it's important to take into account what they're also missing out on. If they're coming straight home and doing two hours of homework and then going to bed, they might not be getting the socialization that they need. And a sign that that might be happening is if your kid just goes completely haywire when they come home because they just haven't had that time to move around and play and interact, or if they're just wild on the weekends. So it's really something to think deeply about. And if you have the desire and ability to create the ideal social experience for your child rather than just what's their school, it's really something worth looking into. Back to this myth of I knew one homeschooler and they were weird. Therefore all homeschoolers are weird. We've talked about, first of all, just so prejudice to say because you met 1 of a 5 million US homeschooling population. All homeschoolers are weird. Also, often this person they met 20 years ago. And homeschooling has changed a lot. There's a lot more people doing it now, and it's just really not fair. I will just give you an example of my own experience of socialization. I grew up with a single mom. We had a really close relationship. So I really got a lot of that one on one time as a child. And I really feel like it laid a foundation for me to develop very close, intimate relationships throughout my life. I was always surrounded by a lot of other parents. My mother did have a babysitting co op. So one or two afternoons a week when I was young, I would go play in that. So that was a really positive social time for me. Then I went to a Montessori preschool. My mom became a teacher there so that she could afford the tuition. We were not wealthy, but again, that was a really positive social experience for me. I loved school. I love my friends. But then when I started to become 11 or 12, it started to become a not positive social experience for me. My mother was not very proactive about arranging play dates because she was very busy and she worked three jobs. And so I wasn't really invited over to other people's houses very much. Also, we're going to talk about this more in the episode. But the social needs of children change as they grow. And when I got to be in sixth grade, I was one of three girls in my entire class. And I was starting to get interested in boys at the time. Oh, yes. And, you know, I. So I wanted to meet more boys I was interested in dating and I just wanted to be part of a bigger group. And we start to see this as children move into the teen years. Also in homeschool co ops, often you'll have a little homeschool co op with one teacher and eight kids, and it's wonderful and everyone's so happy. But then once the kids start to be 10 or 11, they start being a little bit sick of this small environment and wanting a more bigger social group. So I ended up going to a democratic school. It was part of Brown's Coalition of Essential Schools in Ithaca, New York. And I, you know, we would think about that as a very open, welcoming environment. And it turned out not to be that for me. I was bullied relentlessly. I think there was kind of a counterculture at the school and I was very much into ballet and beautiful dresses. And I was also very active in the school assembly, you know, and I really wanted to participate, but a lot of people found that very annoying. I had been a child actress in my hometown and been in a lot of plays, and it was difficult to navigate. I think that I was a bit of a snob, but also people were very resentful of that as well. And, you know, jealousy goes two ways. I don't know that. You know, I think I was pretty competitive and people might be jealous that I was cast in the place, but it was not a good scene for me. You know, boys would come up and, like, mess up my hair. I got. There was a girl who, you know, always was challenging me To a fight and kicking me. I just remember my whole seventh grade year, I was never invited to anyone's house. And it was so sad for me. And I got more and more depressed and I think bored at school. And so eventually my mom made the decision to send me to a private art school. Something funny happened, I think a gift, which is that my sophomore year of college, this young woman came into my life, Marina. And she was at Brandeis because she had won the Slifka scholarship. She was an Israeli Jew who had been very involved in protests and peacebuilding. And she every year Brandeis get a full scholarship to an Israeli and a Palestinian to come to the school and make peace on campus. Now, Marina was a very, very strong personality. I was a little more shy. And she found me at Brandeis and decided that we were going to be friends. And it was kind of a strange cultural meeting. I mean, I was just used to not having any friends. But Marina was just very insistent that we were friends. If I said I had to stay home and say, study, it was just not an option. We were going out. If I, you know, she would just drop by my house unannounced all the time. She was just extremely, extremely bossy about being my friend. And just, you know, I feel so grateful to her because I feel like she really pushed me out of my shell, you know, I think she was in a new country. She didn't speak the language very well. And just coming to me that deciding that I was her friend helped me see that I had the possibility to make friends in my life. So it's. Wow, it's still a really intense subject for me, but it was really beautiful. So Marina and I became friends. I felt that validation. And then my junior year, I went to Paris and I studied in acting school. And that's where really everything changed for me because I made so many friends. I mean, the French culture, it's a socialist country. And in fact, what this means is that a lot of the socializing is just built into the culture itself. It's not really a free for all. One of the big differences between French culture and American culture is that the French are very inclusive in their socialization. It's not like I have these friends for this and I have those friends for that. And we're the cheerleaders and we're the jocks. School is very much, if someone had a party, everyone was invited. In the acting class, even if they didn't like someone, they would still invite them to the party. And I think because I was American and a little bit different. People took an interest in me. I think the French also kind of appreciate quirkiness a little bit more. So I suddenly had so many friends and I'll have to add to this. It was an opportunity to reinvent myself and that can help you break out of old ways of doing things. So I just felt so loved and so full of friendship. And then after I returned to the US I mean, it was really kind of a Sabrina story. I was completely changed. And I think that now today, if I were to tell one of my new friends that I had no friends and I was not very social as a young person, they would be completely shocked because now really networking is my superpower. I built a whole company around my ability to connect with people and make friends in diverse groups, different cultures, different languages, different socio economic groups. Kids of all ages, parents, teachers, venture capitalists. And I think that being social is now one of my strongest suits. So I tell this story because it's just to give you a flavor of the different social experiences that someone can have in their life which are not dependent on if their parent chooses to educate them on their own or if they go to school. And back to this topic of being weird. I mean, I felt incredibly weird as a kid. Probably a lot of you listening felt weird. I just don't think that being weird is something that you should be saying that other people are as a bad thing. I mean people, the weirdest people become inventors and innovators. Also on the other side of that, 20% of children have been diagnosed with special needs in the US school system. And this is not even counting undiagnosed. So if someone is on the autism spectrum and struggling with social skills skills, or if they have severe anxiety or sensory processing disorder, make it even hard to hug if they have a speech impediment. You know, there's so many, you know, maybe they're struggling with their identity in any form, their gender identity, their sexual identity. It's, it's just they're not going to act in a conventional way. Why are we being so judgmental of that quality of weirdness? It just doesn't seem fair. So I would say if you do look at someone and say, oh, they're not like me, they're weird. Dig deeper. I mean, our country is so divisive and if we can kind of push past these initial prejudices we have of people and discover the jewels within, there's so much potential there. So let's not judge people for being weird. I mean, also you know, when you think about people homeschooling, it's a pretty bold choice to make. You know, it's not your kind of conventional, typical person who says, oh, I think I'll just leave school and homeschool. You encounter a lot of pressure. So most of the people today who are homeschooling have had to do it because they're desperate, they have a serious problem. And, you know, maybe their, their child is being marginalized because they're two mothers and people are homophobic at their school, or maybe their child is trans and they're being severely bullied, or, you know, maybe their child extremely gifted. And gifted kids can also face a lot of bullying and pressure at school due to a huge variety of reasons. And then also a lot of people homeschool are independent thinkers. They don't need to do things the way other people are doing. They don't need to conform to pressure in the same way that other people do. So they're homeschooling. I just hope this kind of gives you a little bit more kind of thought when, you know, it's not as simple as I send my kid to school and they're socialized or I homeschool on them and they're not. This is not the case. So now I want to go into what does homeschooling actually look like in socialization? And I'm going to focus on modular learning. And those of you who have been listening to the podcast know that when I talk about modular learning, I mean people who have decided to customize their children's education primarily as a replacement to school, but often as a supplement. They are generally doing one to two hours of mastery based learning a day, taking classes and activities. Maybe they're part of a homeschool co op. When I talk about modular learning, I'm generally referring to patterns that have emerged over the last 50 years, primarily among secular homeschooling groups and some religious communities as well. But generally, the reason for homeschooling is an educational one, as opposed to related to religion or vaccines or some other topics. What are we seeing? I've had the great privilege of being part of numerous homeschooling communities in New York City, in San Francisco. I have talked to people in Singapore and all around the world who are doing modular learning with their kids. What I have seen is incredible, incredible social lives. First of all, the communities are very diverse. They are people of different nationalities, of different skin color, of different political beliefs, of different socioeconomic backgrounds. They are united through this love of learning, passion, for learning passion for their kids. Education is a really strong thing to bring a community together. These people are sharing childcare, they're having playdates all the time, they're going on field trips. If anything, a lot of the homeschoolers, the modular learners I know say that they are too social. Their kids have too many social engagements. What I have observed is very vibrant social lives among these homeschoolers. They are interacting with children of different ages. Their parents are often present when they're socializing. The younger children might be part of a co op, but the older children are primarily taking lots of different classes. A typical week in a modular learner's life might start with Monday. I go to the forest and we have an all day nature based mini camp where the parents are there and the kids are exploring the forest and science. On Tuesday morning I do my homeschool co op where each every two weeks another parent is responsible for the class and we have different arcs and the parent leading it can teach what they want to teach. And also the children do projects and self directed learning on their own and group projects. Then the other parents get a break and hang out. That's pretty cool. Then Wednesday might be a field trip day where people as a group go and visit different businesses. On Tuesday and Thursday afternoon, they might just have a one on one play date. Every morning they all go to the playground. There's generally other homeschoolers who are at the playground hanging out. On Friday there'll be another meetup of families. So there's just so much socializing going on. And that's not even to mention all of the classes that they're taking. Just as someone in traditional school might take an after school class, homeschoolers are taking even more after school classes. Some that are just at typical after school centers and some that homeschooling communities have set up. So there's a ton of socializing going on. And what's great is that this can look different for different families. So if your child is really extroverted, maybe they have a ton of activities going on all the time. Maybe they're at a homeschool co op three days a week and just interacting with other kids of different ages. Or maybe your child is more introverted and they just have a play date two or three days a week and one day where they have a group meetup. There's just so much opportunity for socialization in homeschooling. So as we're thinking about curating the ideal social experience for your unique child, I Want to talk about different developmental stages because it's not something we think a lot about when we're thinking about socializing. And it's important that we understand the needs of our children at different ages. Developmental stages are just one framework. We do know a lot about how the brain develops. Also remember, as I'm saying this, children need different things at different ages. So first we have zero to three. And as I've said many times before, at this age, kids do not need to interact with peers. They can. You're welcome to do a Mommy and Me playgroup. The most important thing here is their relationship with their primary caregiver. The more that their caregiver can be engaged and present with them. This is how they're learning social skills. When they smile and you smile back, when they cry and you wipe your eyes, emotional response. This is just such a critical time. And they really need that primary caregiver. So as you're thinking about maternity paternity leave, if you're a policymaker and want to understand how important that is, just remember having a primary caregiver and how critical that is at that age. If you do have the luxury of staying home with your child, it will benefit them so much. Or if you can possibly find a nanny or au pair or have some kind of childcare swapping, it's so important. And this is why we also kind of dissuade parents from using screen time as a form of entertainment during those early years, because that relationship with the parent is so key. So if your child is under age 3, please do not worry about socialization at all. I mean, it's more important for you if you need to connect with other people. And we will also get to that as well, because you do need friends. That's very, very key. Children are not raised in a vacuum. Parents and how they are reacting to the world, their stress, their own trauma, it's impacting a child at every time. So if you want to raise your child well, it's really always true that the first place to start is with yourself and how happy and balanced you are in your own life. And that's no joke, that's serious, and it works. So ages 0 to 3, as much time and engagement with the primary caregiver as possible. It's so vital for social skills. Now as a child becomes three to six, they might start showing more of an interest in hanging out with other peers. And at the same time, at this age, they're still really learning their social skills from modeling you, their parents and adults they're not really learning from other peers. This idea that you kind of throw in a child with another child and they just hash it out and figure it out as they go, that is not really a thing. But they might show an interest in being around other peers and by all means there's no harm done. Now when a child turns age 6, this is really the time for them to start practicing their social skills. And this could be, it doesn't have to be something where they are hanging out all the time with other kids. It could be one other child, they could be six and it could be an eight year old. But it's really when they want to start practicing and they start showing more of an interest in spending time with other children. So this is a good age, you know, especially if you're homeschooling, to start thinking about signing them up for a class or having a playgroup in your home or just seeing what are some opportunities. It doesn't have to be six or seven hours a day, it could be a few hours a week. It's, you know, really what's right for your child. And this is an also another benefit of being around peers is that there's a certain level of empathy that you get from your peers that you can't get from an adult because they're at a different age. You know, a game that a child might find fun might be extremely boring to you and you don't have to do something that's boring for you. It's probably another kid their age is going to find this game more interesting. I mean, maybe you love building Legos. That's terrific. I personally love coloring. I would definitely do that with any child. But there are other things that are really boring to an adult, like climbing up a dirt hill 20 times, which another kid might find incredibly wonderful. So that's a benefit. Another thing is just the struggles. Maybe a child is struggling because they find reading really hard. Well, another six year old is going to relate to that a lot more than you who already know how to read. Those are ages 6 to 9. Now once a child is going into this 9 to 12 age group, we see the importance of peers growing stronger and stronger. And your child will take the initiative and saying they to want, want to see more kids, they want play dates if that's what's important to them. And that continues in ages 13 through 18. Especially as I mentioned before, in these small homeschool co ops, kids really start to feel this need to connect with their peers. They're developing independence and Autonomy from adults. And the teen years can be a very challenging time. Kids are starting to feel interested in romantic relationships, all these new hormones and feelings, and there's just so many more ways that kids their own age can relate than you. But it's not just about being around kids their own age. They still very much need parents, still the same for modeling, for teaching healthy social skills, and having that foundation of unconditional love. When things go wrong, they can fall back on you. I mean, I had a lot of trouble as a teen, as you've already heard, and my mom and I fought quite a lot. But every now and then we quiet time and lying in bed, and my mom was really the only person that I could talk to about what was really going on with me. And so even if you're not involved in the same way as you were when your child was very young, your child still needs you to provide guidance and support. And as you are probably all too well aware, we're struggling with this huge mental health crisis in the US and around the world among teens, largely brought on by social media and the pandemic. And for instance, there are a lot of teens who are struggling with addiction. And when we talk about addiction healing, addiction always starts with the family and repairing those family ties. One thing that we have noticed with the homeschoolers is that because they've been cultivating a really positive relationship with their parents and spending a lot of time together as a family in a way that's interconnected with learning. Learning is happening all the time. Families are involved. There's not here's learning at school, here's family life that happens after homework from 6 to 7pm before you go to bed. Because of this family relationship that's been developing all these years, there tends to be a less. Less aggressive fights and anger and that sense of disconnection that we often see in the teen years. It can be different if a child leaves school and starts homeschooling as a teen. But in general, we do see that there's a better family relationship. Homeschooling is done right because, as we know, approach matters. And certainly there are families who very sadly homeschool and completely isolate their kids from the world. And it's a great disservice to them, just as there are families who do that at traditional school. There was a girl in my class in elementary school whose parents would never let anyone come over to her home or really let her participate in any playdates of any kind. So it's a big problem, and we do need to do what we can to support those children. So, anyway, so that's a little bit of information about how these things change through different developmental stages. And so now I want to go into the practical nuts and bolts of how do you make friends? When people say, you know, all homeschoolers are antisocial, I mean, it's just. It's like. It's almost like saying, oh, my gosh, you want to be an entrepreneur? Well, you're not going to have any friends because entrepreneurs are lonely, or you want to be a writer, you're not going to have any friends because you don't go to an office. It's just silly. I mean, there are plenty of lonely people who go to an office, just as there are plenty of lonely people who work from home. I know quite a bit about this as I run my own company and work from home. And there have been periods where I've been really lonely. And I learned myself that if I was able to hook into a community wherever I was, whether that was, for example, a Zen Buddhist center or a yoga class, just some place where I could meet people, then it would kind of go from there. So how do you make friends as a homeschooler? Step one. The first thing I would say to anybody who's homeschooling, you know, some. There are going to be some cities like New York and San Francisco, where there's just a ton of people that you can hang out with and other cities that are more challenging, especially if you're a secular homeschooler living in a rural area in the Bible belt is. It might be a bit harder. Religious homeschoolers have in some ways an easier time making friends because they go to their church and their church community is already organized. So it can be tricky or super easy getting started. But the very first thing that you should do is join an online group. So there are two types of online groups. A lot of the homeschooling groups are on Facebook. So sorry if you don't like Facebook, but it might be a good way to make friends. You can also try and meet up often. So what I would say is you can look at joining both global groups and local groups. So there are some amazing, amazing global groups. I would say my favorite is sea homeschoolers. We are having Blair on the show. She is incredible. There's 80,000 people in that group. So let's say you are homeschooling in Lincoln, Nebraska. You don't have any friends. All you have to do is go to See homeschoolers. We will provide the link below and say, hey, I'm just, you know, I would say do a post that's a little bit personal so people will say, oh, I have a common interest with that person. We have a point of connection. So you join the group and you say, hey, I'm Susan. We are in Lincoln, Nebraska. We love chocolate cake or whatever floats your boat or doing yoga and fishing, you know, whatever makes you happy. We love classical literature and YouTube. We just moved here and we're looking for someone who wants to meet up for a play day. It would be great to make friends and generally you'll find there are other people in these groups that happen to be from Lincoln, Nebraska and say, hey, let's meet up or here's a group or here's a meetup or here's a homeschool co op. So just posting in a big online group like that. Also, as you know, we have a very large community ourselves. And I always, whenever families join the group, I always encourage them to introduce themselves. I just connected someone in Singapore today with another family in Singapore. So these groups are just wonderful ways to meet people. So just join a group, join our community. Join c homeschoolers. Introduce yourselves and say your interests and what you're looking for. I know people are concerned about privacy, but if you put a picture of your family, you'll probably get a good return on that. So that's super helpful. And the other thing too is of course in person interactions are so important. You just cannot sacrifice that. But often I've seen friends meet online. So there's a young boy in San Francisco and a young girl in Australia. They met when they were 4 and 6 and they just FaceTime every day. They're best friends. It's incredibly rich. They've never met them in person. You also have a Minecraft club. Kids meet every week. They've developed really fun loving friendships. And that can also be a great option if your child is on the spectrum or has another social anxiety issue. Sometimes meeting online can be a little bit easier at first. Sometimes it is harder. Really depends on the child. But I would not overlook online interaction in addition to in person react interaction. So that's your big online global group. There's also groups that focus on a certain curriculum. So if you're using, let's say the Blossom and Root curriculum, you can join the Blossom and Root curriculum group. Almost every single curriculum I know has a homeschooling group on Facebook. We usually try to include the link in our Posts, but also we can just tell you what it is or just go to Facebook and look for the name of the curriculum and the group. So that's a really good way to connect around a common interest. Because if there's a curriculum you like, probably other people with similar values and interests will like that curriculum too. The second thing is local groups. So this process is also pretty simple, I would say. If you want to connect with other people who are using a secular approach or a modular approach, I would recommend looking for unschooling groups in your area. For example, again, let's say you're in a small town in Montana, you can go or, or let's say Ithaca, New York, you can go on, say Ithaca unschoolers or Ithaca secular homeschoolers. And there's generally a couple different groups that you can join. Make your post about your family, ask to meet up for a play date. Now what's also fun is that often there are already events going on in this group. So if you go and you can search for event or homeschool co op and just participate in something that's already happening and there you will go and you'll meet a lot of people and have a ton of fun. So these are just basics 101 of how to meet people. Join your local groups, go to events, have a play date. Now sometimes people say, well, you know, I did that. We asked people to meet for a play date and honestly it was kind of boring. So it's kind of funny because now don't discount it because the play dates can also be great, but sometimes they are. It's a little bit like dating in a way where you kind of go on a date and meet up for a coffee. You know, it's not really a good way to connect. Sometimes it's better to connect around an activity. If your child likes something, maybe someone would engage in that activity with them, whether that's building a train or Minecraft. Interestingly, I will say this. So this is my big, big pro tip for anyone who's trying to make friends. If there is not something already going on in your community and you want to get play dates going on with your kid, the best thing. So I've just kind of scanned all these groups and looked at 50 different ways that people who are having trouble making friends made friends. The number one way I've seen people make friends is through hosting a board game night. This is a really great choice for families also who might be a little bit introverted and their children are extroverted because you know, maybe you're not someone who likes to go to this big park event with other families and chat with people. Maybe you are more introverted and you kind of prefer one on one time. So if you host a board game event at your house, then you can be kind of on the sidelines while the kids are playing board games. And just a fun way to connect. I would say have one every week at the same time. Maybe ask people to bring healthy snacks or unhealthy snacks. You don't mind healthy snacks and just let people come to your home every week. Maybe if you don't want to host it at your house, you can switch and do different houses. But I mean board games are super. They work so well as an activity for kids to do and start building friendships over time. The other thing is just participating in an after school activity. Remember, not all of your kids friends have to be homeschoolers. I know one homeschooler who has made all of her friends through trampolining. Every single day from 4 to 8pm she goes to the trampoline park. Her family actually lets her take the subway because they think that fosters independence, which I agree. And she just has so many friends from that trampoline park, more than anyone possibly knows what to do with. I mean, she has sleepovers every weekend. Her family, you know, has to insist that they have a certain time of the day, the week that they get to spend time with her. Otherwise she's just out with her friends. So after school activities can be great. There's four H clubs, there's scouts, sports. You don't have to actually, you know, you don't have to be kind of in school to participate in school activities. So join an activity, whether it's a homeschool activity or an after school class, maybe just, just you know, get the extra courage to invite someone over. And it's, it's also nice because especially if it's based around interest, you can also maybe find friends that you enjoy connecting with as well. Because as I said, it's really important for you to have friends too. I myself, I travel around quite a bit and whenever I go to a new city, I just try to find some central place where I can make friends almost right away. Whether that's a meditation center or you know, some type of activity. Just, just get yourself involved in a community and a community that's interacting because sometimes you'll go to a meditation center and people aren't really getting together outside of meditating. And sometimes people are getting together a ton outside of meditating. So that is just something to keep in mind as you start to build this. And I'll just say too, if you're having trouble making friends, you can always reach out to me. I'm a master matchmaker of parents and I can almost always find someone for you to start connecting with. I would just also say try not to be too judgy. You know, I know a lot of people who are secular and they just wouldn't dream of hanging out with a religious homeschooler. Oh my gosh. Or they're Democrat and idea of being around a Republican is horrifying to them. Or maybe, you know, they're a very classy person in tech and they don't want to hang out with this, you know, radical anarchist who's homeschooling their kid. But I really encourage you to explore those connection connections. We live in a society that is so divided between Republican and Democrat from I think this you think that all Republicans are terrible, all Democrats are terrible. And if we're going to make our country a better place, we really do need to start talking with each other. And you might be surprised if someone has different views than you. They can still end up being an absolutely amazing friend. And it's just important that we push those out boundaries a little bit and for our child's benefit as well, because we want our children to be exposed to a diverse group. So also say that as you're thinking about socializing, whether you send your child to an after school activity or host a board game night at your house and roll in Cub Scouts, another thing a lot of people do is join a homeschool co op that meets two or three days a week if you do any of these activities. Also, just don't forget to think about yourself and think about the time that you spend together as a family. Because a lot of people underestimate family time and the importance of family time in building relationships and social skills. Remember, all throughout their life, your child is going to be observing you and watching how you interact and the quality of your relationship with with them will inform their other relationships as well. So, you know, a lot of homeschoolers I know reserve one full day and every morning a week for family time. So there's really big chunks of family time. And being with your family can be a joy, real joy. And you know, kids grow up so fast, so it's a really good reason to homeschool and take advantage of this time you have together. I mean, sometimes I Have families say, well, I don't really like hanging out with my kids. And I kind of take issue with this a bit because I respect it and I believe them that they don't want to hang out with their kids. Maybe they feel like their kid is too clingy or they just really crave their own alone time. But part of this is the split between school and home. They haven't really had time to cultivate a relationship and a dynamic that works for them because it's, go to school, come back, go to school, come back. Of course, the child is at school all day. They miss their parent, and they want to. Want to spend time with them or not. But, you know, in terms of having time, I think that if you're someone who feels like, I don't like spending time with my kid, I feel like that might change a bit as you start having your child more part of your whole life, as opposed to school world, home world. And the other thing I'll say is that it's not, again, it's not just about peers and parents, but especially as you have a teen, it just, first of all, up the ante on sending them to a bunch of different clients. I know a lot of kids in New York are just taking the subway everywhere, going to homeschool centers, taking different classes, community colleges, et cetera, but also think about adults in their life. So I think it's really wonderful for children to volunteer at the aquarium or wherever is interesting to them. If they want to be a physicist, maybe it's a physics lab. But to have some kind of older mentor who's an adult influencing them and building more relationships with adults, and that can just be so, so great for their development. So think about mentors, peers, maybe they have a tutor. Big fan of having younger children tutored by older kids in the homeschool community. Often those kids love it. We hire teens to tutor at my company, and it's just been a great experience. So don't just think about kids the same age. It really does need to be a mix of all children. So before I wrap up, I do want to address some particularly difficult situations for people who have chosen to not send their children to school. Probably the number one that I hear is people who live in rural areas or are secular and live in a highly religious area. First of all, I don't know that that person's situation would be much better if they went to school. Again, they're connecting with people who are, you know, kind of in that area. So it's hard it's harder. But there's a couple things that can help. I would say that first of all, remember, you just need one friend. And it is again, kind of. You know, there are apps like Bumble BFF where you can swipe and find friends in your local area. I mean, it's a thing with dating where people who are farm. There's a dating app for farmers. I think because people live so far away, it's hard to find someone in your neighborhood who isn't your cousin or whatnot. So that's kind of one way of thinking about it. Again, these Facebook groups can be really helpful. Just saying, hey, I live there. I want to connect with other people like me. Who. Who do you know that we can connect with? The other thing, I would say. So it's not impossible. You just have to look for the local group. Start by just finding one friend or one activity. And even if there's a lot of activities in your area, I would say layer them in. Do not just try to do everything at once. Start with one friend, one meetup that you attend, and if you like it, keep going. But don't just overwhelm your child's social calendar immediately. It's important to go slowly. So the other thing I'll say is I feel like some people almost put themselves in a really difficult position. I saw someone post the other day. You know, I am homeschooling my kids by myself. I'm totally overwhelmed. There's no one like me in this area. That's never going to change. And I would say this person. I mean, maybe you should move. Honestly, I mean, there are places that are better where you're going to find more people like you. If that's what you really want, if that's fundamental to you. Maybe if you're saying you can't move, there might be some possibility for moving that you might not have considered. I don't know your situation, but I know that sometimes when something is really important to someone, they can put up resistance. So just see what might be flexible in your life. Could you possibly relocate? If you can't, what's stopping you? Is it money? Could you move to an area where the cost of living is lower? Maybe another country? I know people who have done that is the challenge. You know, your partner's job. Is there any wiggle room around that? If you're really miserable, could you move to another area and both take jobs as online tutors, for example? Just try to see what's possible and don't close your mind and the other thing too is don't just stop at I'm secular and they're religious, so we can't be friends. Give it a try. If there's a Christian homeschool co op in their area that's welcoming secular homeschoolers, give it a try. Be honest with them that you don't necessarily share their beliefs and maybe that could be a beginning of a beautiful friendship. Maybe you meet some people, you are really passionate about climate change and you meet people who don't think climate change is real, but then they meet you and how cool you are and maybe they start thinking, well, maybe there's something to this and I should be paying attention. You know, maybe we can influence each other if we start talking. So, so don't feel limited. There are possibilities. And if you do feel really limited, talk to me. I'm happy to really troubleshoot your individual situation. I have never had any difficulty helping people make friends in any kind of weird situation at all. So so there are options available. So I hope that this episode has been useful to you. I hope you have some good techniques and at the very least, I hope that if you felt like I can't homeschool because of socialization or oh my gosh, all the homeschoolers are weird, or I'm really just trapped because I feel so isolated and I don't know how to make friends, I hope that you've gotten some encouragement and some good tips. And the last thing I would say is if you still have questions, I really encourage you to join our community. We will personally match you with someone in your area and give you ideas for ways to meet up that can be really helpful. Also, we have child life specialists so we can help counsel you on social problems that might be arising at any age or if your child has special needs. We have deep expertise in childhood development and socialization and so you can have someone holding your hand and helping you navigate this path. If you object to anything I say, I really encourage you to talk about it in the comments. I've thought about this so much. I'm really passionate about this topic of socialization and homeschooling and I really, really welcome you to voice your objections and questions. I think be a really intriguing conversation. Please bring your questions and we will try to answer them in the comments and also in further conversations. So if you do anything else, if you want to make friends, I hope you'll go to a homeschooling group today and introduce your family or join a meetup and get your child some of that rich socializing that they so deserve. Thanks everyone for coming today. And if you have a great story about meeting someone new, please share it with us and we will share it with listeners. Thanks for listening everybody, and have a great day.