Daniel Jasper: Climate Action for Parents and Kids

Hi, everyone. I'm Manisha, the host of Teach your Kids, a podcast and online homeschool community. And today we're talking about climate change. So in Teach YouKids you can connect with other families. We have Chess Club and Minecraft Realm, and it's a really great place to just get advice and support on how to supplement or replace your child's education at home. I am so excited today to welcome Dan Jasper. Dan Jasper is the policy advisor at Project Drawdown, whose mission is to help the world stop climate change as quickly, safely and equitably as possible. And he's also the founder and primary author of streetcivics.com Dan has over a decade of public policy experience advocating for climate financing and simultaneously addressing poverty alleviation and climate resilience in low and middle income countries. So you might be wondering why I invited Dan on this podcast about homeschooling, and there's a couple important reasons that I want to highlight. First of all, one of the reasons that a lot of families are choosing to educate their children at home is because they're not feeling like they're getting the kind of science and education they need at school. And climate education is of big importance to a lot of families. Also, many parents are very, very concerned about CL change because they have children who are growing up in this changing world, and so there can be a lot of anxiety and not really knowing what to do. Likewise, many of our kids have questions when they start learning about the science, about what kind of actions they can take. Then finally, one of the reasons that I got into homeschooling is because I believe profoundly in expanding access to education. And, and I learned through Project Drawdown that actually education is one of the primary ways to alleviate climate change. And so I'm really excited to dig into all of this with Dan today. Thank you so much for taking the time out of saving the world to come on our show and talk to our community.

No, thank you so much for inviting me, Manisha. I think this is such an important conversation, so I'm really glad that you're taking the lead here. And, you know, Project Drawdown is really thrilled, I think, to partner with groups like yours and especially to reach younger audiences and to sort of broaden out this conversation about what climate change is and what we really need to do to tackle it. So I give you a lot of credit for seeing that and can't wait to dive into our conversation here.

Wonderful. Yes. And I feel like it can seem so overwhelming when people learn about what's happening to our environment. So I really hope that by the end of this interview, people feel empowered with concrete steps they can take to be part of the work you're doing.

So.

So I guess I'll start a little bit by sharing my story and then maybe you can share yours. When I was in 10th grade, many years ago, I took a geology course at Cornell as part of their high school program and was absolutely horrified to discover something called climate change. And basically my takeaway was that the world is coming to an end. And so I decided I just had to stop everything I was doing and, and figure out how to save the world. And what I realized is that the information coming at me was very confusing. And when I was in college, I got a National Wildlife Federation fellowship. I tried to get our university to adopt recycled paper with post consumer waste and felt kind of like, I don't know if recycled paper is really the answer to stopping this problem. And then ended up doing a ton of research and just felt like I was getting so much misleading information. I mean, I heard something on Freakonomics saying that climate change wasn't really a problem after all, and then just trying to calculate, well, what's my environmental footprint? I mean, I'm vegetarian, do I need to compost? And it was just all very confusing. And finally one of my friends, Linnea Patton, who works in alternative energy, said, look at Project Drawdown. And I discovered this incredible project where you had systematically done so much research to see what exactly were the causes of climate change, what made the biggest impact and how we could change things, and just incredible scientific evidence based research. And number six on your list was the education of girls. And as an educator, I decided that's where I was going to focus. And it's really the root of all the work I do today. So that research had a big impact on me. So I just wanted to share that with you and perhaps maybe you could share your climate story with me.

Yeah, absolutely. No, that's wonderful. I mean, it's so amazing to hear like actual people being affected by our work and to see this huge initiative come out of it that you're doing is just so incredible and inspirational. So, I mean, that's what keeps us doing this work. So thank you so much for doing that and for talking to us about it. My personal story isn't too different from yours maybe a little bit, but I think it did have sort of that come, you know, that wall of all of a sudden climate change is a huge issue. And confronting that within the context of My own career, just like quickly. I difficult to talk about personal stories sometimes because there's so much that goes into making us as people. Right, but let me just truncate it. You know, I think I've always been kind of a big picture person. You know, when I was a kid, I was obsessed with things like national flags. Believe it or not, I was amazed by this idea that a community, a huge community could come together and agree that this symbol represents us. I thought it was fascinating. And then I was, you know, things like ants. I was very fascinated by how they cooperate and how the power is diffuse. Even as a child, I knew that the queen isn't calling the shots, she's just laying eggs. And that really was interesting to me. How do they cooperate so well? And why do they seem to do it so much better than humans in a lot of ways? And then I am so glad you mentioned chess too, because that was one of my big passions as a kid and has been up until this day, actually. It's a really important thing. On the other hand, I was really in love with things like physics and astronomy. And I think as I grew up, I wanted to be part of the Mars mission. I had no illusions about setting foot on Mars, but I wanted to be an engineer, just involved in it. And I remember specifically this one day walking in my university along this beautiful garden, and all of a sudden the thought occurred to me, what does it matter if we make it to Mars if we destroy ourselves here on Earth? And that stopped me in my tracks. And I thought, I have to change direction because that is probably the most important I could do with my life. And so I veered and in my mind it was, it was a human cooperation issue. We have the science, we knew what the problem was. And really we just need to figure out how to work together to make it happen. So that veered me into, you know, international affairs and sustainable development. And a lot of my academic interests ended up nearing a lot of what I was taught as a child, including things like linguistics, which paired well with my interest in flags and symbols, that kind of stuff. But just quickly, I'll note that later in my career, the lesson that I kept learning was that the environment reflects how we treat each other and ourselves, and society reflects how we treat the environment. And this two way relationship is so critical. And when I found Project Drawdown, I was amazed at the work they had done on our food systems. And it really confronted me with how I interacted with our food systems. So very similar to yours. And that I had that thought and that, you know, this is probably the best way I could spend my life. And so here I am at Project Drawdown. So lucky to be a part of this team because I, like yourself on the organization, was super inspired by it. So, yeah, that's kind of my story here in some.

Wow, it is just so wonderful to hear your story. I mean, you are clearly so brilliant and have so many intellectual interests and I know that our community cares a lot about scientific reasoning and critical thinking and it can be really challenging with all the information out there to really sort through what's true and what's not true. So perhaps it's. You could tell us more about Project Drawdown and why this project is unprecedented.

Yeah, absolutely. It's an interesting story. Project Drawdown was really started by a scientist named Paul Hawkin, who at some point he started to ask his scientist buddies, what is the checklist that we need to do to tackle climate change? Like what, what are the full suite of things that we actually need to do? And all of his scientist friends said, what checklist? There is no checklist. And I think that sent a little bit the way he described it sounded like it almost sent a little bit of panic in him. Right. Like, why isn't there a checklist for this huge issue? And so that was an impetus to assemble that checklist. And so that's what Project Drawdown has done a lot of. And today we have a solutions library which has close to 100 different climate solutions. And the thing is, is that again, it is a checklist, it is not a menu of options. We have to do all of these things together. Exactly. And so what makes it unprecedented is the fact that it is, it looks at both climate and human well being as a cohesive system as well as the full suite of things that we will need to do to actually live in a sustainable way. Right. So today again, we have those solution libraries, but now we're working on, you know, it's nice to have that checklist, but now we're going to work on how do we unroll those programs, what is the instruction manual we need to do to actually implement some of these items. So we're coming out with a number of roadmaps that we're calling them about how do we dive into the nitty gritty on. So we've gone from assembly in the checklist to now, okay, how do we actually implement that? And that's kind of where we are today.

Phenomenal. And I just think it's so wonderful and rare that you are thinking about the network and how things interact, especially in this age of social media. It's so tempting to kind of want to offer, well, if we only did this, everything would be fine and really lean into the interconnectedness. I did want to ask you a little more just about your research standards and how you ensure that the information that you find is as reliable and accurate and unbiased as possible.

Wonderful question. Unfortunately, I'm not one of our scientists. My role is really taking a lot of the research they're doing and bringing it to policymakers. What I will say is that we have literally some of the top climate scientists on the planet, people like Jonathan Foley and Kate Marvel, who are some of the leaders in this space and have been quite literally defining climate science since before I was born. I don't mean to date them or not, but they've been doing it for quite a while. There's a high degree of trust there and there's a high degree, I think, of collaboration between. I think we have about six scientists now, but of course they have a wide massive network of folks that they can verify and information with. So all the data we're pulling from is from peer reviewed resources and some of the raw data we get are from, you know, typical reliable sources, things like the International Energy association, the UN World bank data, that kind of stuff. So unfortunately, I can't give you a peek under the hood of the climate models because that's just not my expertise. But that's kind of mainly how we develop some of those methods.

That's very helpful. And I think one of the reasons I really do love your research is because, I mean, even when you look at the citations that are used, it seems like your scientists are really exploring all the untested assumptions and coming from a pure scientific approach, which is it's a really great way of doing research and really helpful for people who want to know the truth. So I, you know, it surprised me to learn when I discovered Project Drawdown about what at the time was number six on your list, which is really the reason I do the work that I do, which is the connection between helping women access education and sustainability. Could you perhaps elaborate a little bit more on how education of girls and women and education in general is connected to climate change and sustainability?

Yeah, absolutely. I love this one too, because it really speaks to what I was saying about how the way that we treat each other is reflected in the environment. And so this really speaks to the issue of equity and human rights. As part of this discussion in climate, I think to draw the connections a little bit out in terms of universal access to family planning methods as well as universal high quality education, these things tend to play out in the long run. The benefit that we're looking for here is the benefits to rights to education and equality. These have ripple effects for the climate because as people are educated more, it's correlated with lower families, with lower numbers of families or individuals in a family over time. This has an organic impact of reducing population growth. I want to pause here and just stress that this is the population is not the problem. And Project Drawdown does not say that at all. We have enough resources to feed and clothe everybody on this planet if we were to do it efficiently and more sustainably. So population isn't necessarily the problem. However, it does contribute. More people will basically equate to more greenhouse gases. If we can make sure that everybody is educated and meeting and has access to human rights and quality education, we will see in demographic trends later on, populations start to slow and that can help us reduce our stresses on the resources that we have.

Wonderful. And I really appreciate you kind of putting a pin in this fact that it's not population that is the problem necessarily, because there can be a whole mindset of almost kind of feeling like some population shouldn't grow where more privileged population should have children. And so I really appreciate that and also just acknowledging that, that some of the wealthier populations are consuming considerably more than people who are having lots of children. But another thing that struck me, I think in your paper was just how more women engineers can help build more sustainable solutions to climate change as well. And that is another benefit. In addition to having fewer children, just having these opportunities to find greater wealth and, and solve the problems together. Also along those lines, what are some effective ways you've seen that organizations are expanding access to education for girls? Can you highlight any organizations or efforts in particular that seem to be particularly effective?

Unfortunately, I think in places where I've been actually on development programs, I've been in contexts where actually we had the opposite issue, where actually the girls were really engaged in education. It was tough to get the guys engaged. I think that speaks to the context and the regional nature of this issue. But from the climate perspective, I think what we're really trying to push is the enabling factors that can really, that are correlated very closely with higher education. So the one that's top of my mind is increasing electricity access. Right. This is something that is huge right now. For example, in Africa There are over 730 million people without access to electricity. So giving them electricity one would at least enable education a lot better. But obviously we can't hook them up to the same dirty grid that we're using. So investing in renewable energy projects are so crucial. And it sounds tangential to education, but we need that infrastructure, right, to properly educate us. And we know that access to electricity improves so much at so many different aspects of education. So unfortunately, going back to the Africa example, you know, it's 730 million people lack access to electricity and only 2% of investments in the renewable energy sector are going to Africa, despite the fact that it's the best place in the world for solar. So we really have to start thinking about our priorities here, right, and these enabling factors. I'm going to give you just one more quick example here because there's so many things that I think we don't talk about or even think about. We've been working really closely with the Clean Cooking alliance lately to look at this issue of access to clean cooking methods. Over, I think 2.3 billion people in the world still use traditional stoves or open fires. And that actually has consequences for greenhouse gases because they're burning wood. And that actually, believe it or not, is about the same emissions as the aviation industry. Then there's all these other sorts of problems as well. When you burn wood, the black part of the smoke that's called black carbon, and that black carbon can end up in the atmosphere, then deposits on ice and glaciers and it speeds up the warming and melting process. So that's obviously difficult for sea level rise. It's also difficult for water supplies when it lands on glaciers and there have been life threatening floods and stuff like that. Now what does this have to do with education? Note that gathering wood fuel can take anywhere from like 30 minutes up to 6 hours for some people. And that responsibility primarily falls on women and girls. So what if we gave them their time back? What if we invested in renewable energy access and gave them better, you know, cleaner methods of cooking and their time back? There are all sorts of studies looking at what do women do with their time when they get it back. But I'll be honest, from my perspective, I don't know if we need to really dissect that. Isn't it enough just to give them their time back and to say they're going to do with it what they think is best and we can trust that that's going to have really good implications for things like employment and education?

I could not agree with you more and just to expand upon this connection further between electricity and education. I feel that probably the most important innovation in education in the last 50 years is Google and the Internet. Now there are so many amazing adaptive learning apps that are being built for children. Often when we think about education, we think about building schools. But in fact, I've had this fantasy of I could get a big grant and build these solar powered iPads with lots of digital learning apps and bring education to kids. That way, when you get access to electricity, when you get access to access to Internet, there's just so many possibilities to learn and advance yourself. And it's a natural inclination. I mean, I think of the story of Dame Ragnell and this knight who was searching for what women most want, and it was their sovereignty. Right. So what does a woman do with her sovereignty? You know, maybe that's not the question. You know, just trusting that giving her her sovereignty, she will make good choices that help the world.

Absolutely, absolutely. And just another point too, on the giving access to the Internet, that education goes both ways, because there are whole communities that are not participating on the Internet and have things to teach us. There are local communities that have traditions going back thousands of years that we need to resurrect and we will need to learn from them. So I just want to point out that I think often there is this sort of we need to extend our arm, but the education street works both ways.

That is so true. And even just coming back to this idea of networks and ecosystems, there's so much knowledge there that we could draw upon as we try to survive and thrive in a complex world. You worked for the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, advocating for peace and humanitarian cooperation on international development. This is, of course, a very sensitive topic with what's going on right now. But would you be willing to address how sustainability is connected to some of the conflicts we're seeing break out in the world today?

Honestly, I think you could probably dedicate a whole podcast just to this issue, and I bet you there's probably some that exists already, because the connection between resources and conflict can be a little bit complicated on some level. There's always an element of resources within conflict, especially if we consider land or territory to be a resource. But I think I really want to impress people that we should be cautious about drawing too many linkages and inferences about what this might mean in the future. So, you know, for example, like, I've heard people draw connections with the most recent conflicts that we're seeing and oil and gas, and I am very hesitant to make those connections or say that that's the main driver, because I don't think that that's correct analysis at all. And I think that, you know, there's a lot of geopolitics and history in here, so. So we need to be cautious in making those implications and even with further conflicts. Probably the most famous example is the Styria example. I've heard a lot of people say that this is the first climate war because of an anecdote that drought had driven farmers into the cities and it had created social imbalances that was based off of the testimony of one farmer. And so we do need to be really cautious about where are we getting this data from and why are we drawing these conclusions. We hear quite often nowadays that climate change is a threat multiplier. This term came from a national defense document, I think, in 2007 from a defense contractor. And it just took off like wildfire without many people really stopping to examine some of the assumptions that undergird that. So, you know, is it really the case that when their resources are scarce, that it automatically equates to conflict? Conflict? The answer is not necessarily. And in international development, people have known this for a very long time, that especially things like water scarcity can actually be great in pulling communities together. And there have been many instances in which conflicting parties have come together because of their dwindling water supply. So water scarcity or resource scarcity can, on some level, bring us together because there's this element of mutually assured destruction. If it's a basic need. Right. If it's water. Right. Something like that. It's also worth, I think, calling attention to the fact that we're seeing a lot of voices in the military come out and saying that conflict is not going to be compatible with a robust response to conflict. We can, for one, we're going to need radical cooperation, so we cannot be harming one another. It also has untold damage to the environment. Right. And there are lots of greenhouse gas emissions that are pumped out from conflict as well as. Not to mention the inefficient use of resources. I don't mean to sound cheeky, but, like, if you think about the supply chain of a bomb, we're taking all of these resources from around the world, putting together assembly plants, shipping them someplace, and then we're dropping them and exploding them. This is like one of the worst uses of resources we can possibly think of in this moment right now, because we're going to need radical cooperation. So what I want people to get from this is that one, I don't want people to think that just because there will be troubles with resources, sources, that automatically means that there will be more conflict. It could mean the other thing where actually it's an impetus for us to put down our weapons and say, you know what, we're not going to get through this unless we work together. And we're starting to see, like I said, increasing voices from the military say this as well. My guess is we're going to see a lot more of that and we're going to start to see increasing calls for things like global ceasefires, because it's just incompatible. So that, that really speaks to, I think, radical cooperation on a different level. We're going to have to start thinking about how we relate to one another and international relations at a fundamental level.

I just love that thought and optimism. What I witness is there's kind of, in my circles, I see two camps of people. There's definitely a group of people who just kind of don't care at all. That's one camp. But then I also see people who are kind of almost like indulging in their grief, you know, And I saw, even with your presentation, there were people saying, well, there's nothing we can do and it's all terrible and blah, blah, blah. And I've been in a lot of communities like this that's just always talking about how horrible the world is and nothing is going to get better, and then we all go to a protest together. So amidst that rant, I really want, I think that I have a theory that if you learn about something difficult in the world and you don't just take action to help it, but you take strategic action to help it, that will really improve your own mental health. So. So there's all these different things coming together. There's our, you know, we don't have a lot of time as parents and teachers, and yet we want to do something. So if you were to, let's just start off by saying, like, in our busy lives, if we had to choose one behavior to help make a positive impact in building a sustainable future for our children, where is the best place for us to put our energy, taking.

It slow and trying to find the things that are going to work and that you can maintain over a long period of time, and that does take, like you said, maybe one thing every two weeks so that you can work it in when it comes to, like, the most impactful thing, it does depend quite a bit on our lifestyles and where we live and what we eat and A lot of different things. So it's difficult to say one thing for everybody because it's so dependent. But I can just mention a couple things on the tangible side. And then I also want to just give a note about, about the fact that we also need to start thinking about the intangible aspects of what we need to change in order to improve our response to climate. I think on the tangible side, most people are starting to get some of the messages. One thing that we can really make sure we're doing is reducing our food waste. If you do have food waste, try to compost it. Keeping it out of the landfills is so important because so much methane comes from there. And methane is a really powerful climate greenhouse gas. So it's even more powerful than carbon dioxide. So that one's really critical and it is something that is massive issues. The more we can keep food out of the landfills, the better. Plant rich diets are really important. You said you were a vegetarian. That that's wonderful. Actually I went vegan because of plant drawdown, project drawdown. But I know that that's difficult for people and, and people get a little anxious too because we get used to our, what we're eating and we get into our routines and, and I know so well that it's so difficult to like sit down and plan out how you're going to like totally change your routine. So my advice is kind of do what you're doing. Manisha is that. Find a little bit of replacement. Maybe you can replace those hamburgers. You know, beef is almost a particular type of sin these days. I. The fact that really sticks out of my head is that a single hamburger takes the same amount of water, just in terms of water as showering for three months or flushing the toilet for six months. That's just one hamburger. So you know, beef is really up there in terms of impact. So as much as you can avoid that and really try to introduce plant based substitutes in your diet is huge. I'll give a plug for homeowners out there. If you're looking to take advantage of the ira, check out a group called Rewiring America. They have a ton of resources and are really specialized in that. That's a really great area. If you're a homeowner or have access to that. Of course there are things like taking public transportation and carpooling, recycling, telepresence, all that type of stuff. That is super important. And again, I think people are starting to get a handle on what it is about their lives that is probably the biggest thing that they can change. For me, it really was my meeting. I thought, okay, that's something that I could really do. For somebody else, it might be, well, maybe I can start taking a bus or whatever. It's going to be very, very context specific. I will also just give a plug again for the intangible stuff that we need to do again. We're going to go back to this concept that we're really going to have to cooperate on a level humanity has never done before. And what is that really going to take within us? Right. So one, building personal resilience and our understanding and being able to deal with the grief. You mentioned that people were overwhelmed. And that's, that's okay. It's okay to feel anxious, it's okay to feel worried. And I think it's, it's important that we allow that within ourselves. We don't resist it or attach ourselves to it, but it's okay to allow and discipline, sort of let it dissipate on its own. But I don't mean to sound hokey, but I think we really are going to have to start investigating what it means to really love each other. And I dare say that the L word in Washington D.C. i either get cheered or booed here for bringing it up. But when we're talking about human cooperation, we're going to have to start thinking about how we relate to each other, how we forgive each other, how we interact on a personal level and how our personal conflicts actually impact larger society. So it doesn't mean we have to like each other. It doesn't mean we have to agree. But we are going to have to start thinking about what does that really mean to actually cooperate and what is it really going to take to relate to each other. It's going to take a new kind of reverence for life and humanity. And the only word I really have to describe that is love. So thinking about how we can increase that and really exercise that at a real deeper level, I think is critically important on the political side. If you want me to get into.

That, let's talk about the policy side of things. Because it's true. I mean, yes, like, okay, it's one thing that we change our own behavior, but we do have to change the policy. So what policies are really the ones to look for if we're going to call our or congressman or whatnot?

Yeah, I mean, really quick on that note, I think that is perfect explanation too because there's often this debate of like what's necessary personal action or is it at the policy level. And to me it's kind of a faux debate. Right. Because we need both. And you're totally right that often, more often than not, it's like individual change that ends up setting the cultural context which then produces the policies that our leaders make. Theoretically anyways.

Right.

At the policy level and the political level. I guess I'm assuming a lot of your listeners are in the United States.

But maybe not actually 60 different countries.

Oh, that's amazing. Wow. Wow, that's incredible. I guess I can speak to some of these areas. Most of my comments I think are pointed towards the US but it's probably applicable in most democracies. Um, there. Okay, so there's issues that we can pay attention to. One thing I will say is that if people are busy, I would pick one issue and I would probably find an organization that you trust and can vet and I would just follow them and I would basically sort of follow their leads. So that you're kind of outsourcing some of that day to day tracking that you need. Right. But at the political level, you know, at the United States, I think it's important to remember that not every, every American has a congressperson or a senator. I'm in Washington D.C. we do not have representation in Congress. And I think people forget that. Right. Puerto Rico, Micronesia, the Virgin Islands, all these people do not have a voice, which makes it so much more important that folks that do have a voice are exercising it. Now I know people are a little jaded with the political situation and I do not blame them at all. I've been in D.C. forever and I am also a little jaded and frustrated at the same time. I've literally seen citizens make law because they were so passionate and so adamant and they just would not back down even with people who were opposed to them. Fundamentally. Actually, climate change can be a little bit difficult. But at the same time I want people to remember that you can have a huge impact, especially with those who you vote into office. But it takes consistency and it takes cooperation with a group and you just really have to stick with it because sometimes it can take years. Right. To really change people's minds. So I want to give that plug. I also want to give a plug for confronting, just as you were saying, asking the tough questions. I know in the United States and I know elsewhere too, they do things like town halls where elected officials will open up a conversation to the community and people can ask questions. These are huge opportunity to get in there and ask really tough questions and to get them on the record. If they disagree with you, then basically they're giving you the argument that you can deconstruct and then you know, re engage. If they're agreeing with you, then you can hold them to that. So again, really important to do if you're looking for like the issues. These are some of the top line things that I would look at. Policy can be a little nitty gritty and I'm not going to get into some of like specific regulations or permitting things. But at the issue level, one of the biggest things we need to look at right now is a fossil fuel phase out. And I'm stressing phase out because right now at the international level there's some debate of over a phase out, which would mean greenhouse gases are declined and then phased out entirely until they're not used anymore versus a phase down where they're just curtailed. But there's no clear plan to end their use altogether. This is a huge issue. What the world needs now is a fossil fuel phase out, not a phase down. So paying attention to this issue and making sure that your leaders are reflecting your values on that is a good way to stay involved. We've talked a lot about our food systems transformation. We're going to need huge discussions and this is a difficult one. But you know, even if we were to change all of our electricity production methods right now, our food systems alone would put us past our climate goals. So that's another huge issue we need to look at. We need a public transportation renaissance. We need to improve buildings, rethink industry, we need to protect ecosystems. I think we also need to reallocate resources towards human and planetary well being instead of endless money for wars. That's my personal opinion, but I think that that's a really critical one. So these are some of the big things that you can think about. And then at the local, state and national level, wherever you may be, you're going to see where these things play out in terms of the regulations and policy.

Amazing. So I'm going to try to kind of make this bite size for people. Almost like optimizing political action the way you would optimize going to the gym, you know, optimizing service. So I love this idea of a town hall. I think you're completely right. And I just think about this guy, Raphael Lemkin. I don't know if you know him, but he was one of the major players in stopping genocide. I forget what bill he got. I think it was the first treaty and to stop genocide. And he was just known as being an extremely annoying person. He was just like, always hanging out in the halls, annoying people, annoying the Congress people. And just, you know, finally people kind of caved because he just was so annoying and he didn't care about being liked. He just cared about these people. So if, let's say, you know, you know, for families, care about climate change, want to educate their kids, let's say, you know, once a month I'm going to go to a town hall. So first of all, like, how do you find out about where the town hall is happening? And then how do we know what questions to ask? Like, what would be a good question to ask in this town hall?

So in the United States, I know that town halls are typically announced by representatives, so if you pay attention to your representative's website and they'll probably have a mailing list that I would encourage you to sign up for, they will, they should alert you to those when they're happening in the district. In terms of questions is a really good point. And it really is dependent a little bit on the context. Right. Because Congress moves so quickly that my advice today, very different tomorrow. So what I would say to folks is that again, it is so critical, especially if you're really busy and you feel overwhelmed, to identify a really trusted partner in the, in your locality, either at the local region or at the national level, where you can follow and who are paying attention to the nitty gritty and can keep you updated on what's happening with that bill you care about or this policy change you care about. That way you can stay engaged, but you don't have to find out all to sort through all the government websites and things like that. They can also give you a very good idea of what questions to ask. And if you develop a relationship with them, that's even better. Rather than just subscribing to the newsletter, if you really get in touch with their staff and you say, you know, we're really interested in leveraging this, can you just walk me through what would be important questions to ask? Representative so and so that would be really important because I think what folks sometimes miss about climate action is that there's always people coordinating this stuff. And so when people are asking you to sign petitions or a letter to your congressperson, there's usually somebody like me who's taking that data and then going to that office and saying, look how many people in your district signed this. So staying involved in those issues is really key and can provide a good benchmark. And I think take away some of the overwhelming feelings that you can get in following this stuff.

I absolutely agree, and I am so grateful to have found Project Drawdown, which I feel I can trust as an organization. But on that note, I mean, there is just such a huge range of environmental organizations out there and, and many with hidden agendas. I mean, I'm sure there's organizations that are just, you know, focused on population growth and, you know, all kinds of weirdness going on there. So are there some organizations that you could recommend if a family feels like after this podcast they just want to sign up and get on the alerts? Or if you don't have something to recommend, if you would recommend a process for identifying a good organization to get involved with.

That's such a good question. I almost wish I would have drawn out some criteria before our conversation, because it's a good question. There's a lot of trustworthy organizations out there, and I think a lot of them probably know the big names in terms of taking action. Friends of the Earth is one that comes to mind. The center for International Environmental Law is another good one, but I'm blinking on so many others.

And so I think that's such a good start. Yeah. And maybe on that note, I mean, you have mentioned several times times, local organizations. Perhaps you could expand on why you think being involved in a local organization is so critical.

Yeah, I think. I mean, the local is going to be in tune with where your leverage points are, and that's where you're really going to have leverage. Right. Is with local politicians at the national level, you can, but it takes a lot of concerted energy and it's just different. I mean, if you live in, I don't know, Alabama, but coming to D.C. is just not in the question. But the local level is so critical in building climate policy that it is like. Like it is now. I think a lot of groups are turning their focus towards it because the national level has been so difficult. So staying involved at the local level, because again, you're going to have. You're going to be able to see your policymakers in person and you're going to be able to engage them. I mean, theoretically. Right. So they're going to listen to you a lot more. I can tell you at the national level, Congress people care much less about people who are not in their district. So you being in their district. And if you're a. I would leverage whatever you do for a living or whatever connections you might have if you're a leader in your community in any way, if you're small business owners. They really want to hear from you, all sorts of things. And even in your case, if you run a podcast, you say, I have this huge reach and I'm located in your district that gives you so much power, and people are really going to start to pay attention. They might not agree, but at least they'll respect you enough to engage in a conversation. So the local level is important because that's where a lot of the action is going to. To be taking place and where a lot of the solutions are going to be unrolled.

Right. Awesome. And, you know, I think, like, just thinking about somewhere like Friends of the Earth or Project Drawdown, I imagine people could say, hey, I live in, you know, Ohio, in Cleveland, Ohio, and where. What's a trustworthy organization that I can get involved with? And I'm sure they could get a good suggestion that way, because I do. I do think that, that, that does matter where you decide to put your energy and time. One of my. I just love this word leverage. One of my favorite examples of political activism is, you know, whether you agree or not on the topic, but when, and I believe Andrew Cuomo, like, started calling Republicans and tell. Talking to them about their children who were gay. And he kind of did this underground movement. And then all of a sudden there was a vote on gay marriage. Marriage. And it passed because he had been picking up the phone and calling people who he knew had a gay niece or a gay nephew. And I think that kind of activism actually takes a lot of courage. It's much easier to, like, wave your fist and say, I don't like this person, or they're bad. But actually to stand in front of someone's faith and say, this issue is really important to me. I need you to consider it. It's a lot harder, but it's a lot more effective.

Absolutely. And also I love your point, too, about being a little annoying in a diplomatic way, but being consistent, being there. And it is difficult. I was raised in the Midwest, so I had a very difficult mental block getting past this. Like, I've emailed this person a million times. I feel bad. But again, it's not about that. And you have to stay engaged because if you don't, nobody else is going to do it. So you have to be a little bit of a pest, but in a diplomatic way. But you're right. You know, the. The truth is that they don't have to like you to eventually agree with you. Right. But I do encourage people to be diplomatic about that.

Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes it takes a couple tries. So. Wow, this has just been so wonderful. Well, I guess I do have another question. I mean, some people in our community have money to spend. Where should we be sending our dollars to help support a sustainable planet?

We're actually working right now too, and looking at where money is being allocated. And I would really encourage folks with money to spend to look at our project Drawn out roadmap that it's on our website and there is some discussion about where current financing is flowing and where it needs to be flowing and it may depend a little bit on like where your capital sits. So I would really encourage folks to check that out and we're going to have a lot more information coming out about that. Of course, Project Drawdown is, you know, based on the generosity of folks, you know, like yourselves, who donate. And actually a lot of our donations are individual individuals, so that really keeps the lights on for us. And then I'll also just quickly mention that, you know, in the world of finance and what we can do, Project Drawdown, our Labs program is about to unveil a banking report about where individuals can do banking in order to support climate goals. And that's going to be a huge report. I'm personally looking forward to it because I know that's one area I need to work on as well.

And I just love the work you're doing so much. I'm definitely putting the money that I have to donate to Project Drawdown because I just, I can't think of anything more important than doing this, you know, finding the truth, doing real research where that's evidence based and peer reviewed and looking at the data, it's just so needed in this world and coming up with, you know, a complex solution to a complex problem with hope and optimism and also, you know, realism at the same time. So I just really appreciate it. Oh my gosh, before I forget, what are some careers for our kiddos who want to work on helping the planet? What kind of jobs should they start doing?

Yeah, well, this is an interesting question, right? Especially if we think about what AI means for future careers. And I would actually love to hear your opinion and I'm sure your audience has some really interesting stuff to say about that. What I will say is that we often have a mantra here at Project Drawdown that every job is a climate job. And we really do mean that. And so, so I would essentially encourage folks to follow what is interesting and what they're passionate about. We have another phrase that we often say that we're going to need everybody's superpower here. And so, you know, I would say that your superpower may not immediately look related to climate, but I guarantee you there's an application and I guarantee your role would have some implications for climate action. So some of it is about how your integration, integrating climate concepts into the work you're doing and some of the work is specifically on climate related jobs. You know, there's so many things that are open right now and one of the areas that we're definitely going to need a lot of help in in terms of workforce is redoing our grid like that. So that's going to be a huge area. Right. So I don't know if that's even enticing to folks these days. And I do tend to hesitate to give advice to a generation that's a few more years to get to their careers. But what I would really stress is that, you know, like me, I followed my passions and I ended up in climate. But if you were to look at me at seven years old, obsessed with flags and ants, you probably wouldn't think, oh, this kid's gonna grow up to be a climate activist. But I ended up that way. And so I really encourage folks to explore ways in which their passions will contribute to climate. And so I know that's very general, but it's probably the best advice I can give right now.

Fantastic. And I'm so excited to say that we're also going to have your colleague Elizabeth on the show to talk about climate education. So that's a big piece of all of this, how we educate our children on this complex, scary topic. In the meanwhile, what, what are ways that we can help? Project Drawdown I'm sure people are feeling so inspired by what you've said and want to contribute either politically or in terms of donations. What's the way that we can most support you, Dan?

Some simple things. Describe or excuse me. Subscribe to our newsletter. Keep updated on our events and things like that. I really encourage you to check out our materials, disseminate them to anybody who might be interested. I know probably one of the biggest impacts that we've had is folks who've read the book and then they share it with all their grassroots activist friends and it becomes like a standard. It's really important, I think, especially when you're having conversations, that you have some of that information in the back of your mind. So check out our materials, try to leverage our models. We have so much information and data out there that we want people to utilize at every level and I mentioned the finance tracking that we're doing. That's. That's one really important example of that. Stay up to date on our science. We're coming out with a lot of new science in the years ahead and months and years ahead. And then, of course, you know, we're always open to donations and any financial support. So staying in touch and staying engaged and supporting us financially if possible is probably the best way to continue to support us.

Phenomenal. I'm going to make a donation right when we get off the call, and we're kind of wrapping it up. But I did also definitely want to talk about your other organization, Street Civics, and I can't believe that you are policy advisor for Project drata and also have an organization. But could you tell us about the work you do there?

Street Civics is a project I started in 2019 to serve as a resource for people who want to be civically engaged. Unfortunately, again, there's a. There's a small cadre of folks who are basically social justice lobbyists here in D.C. believe it or not, there are some good lobbyists out there. Unfortunately, though, we've all had to learn on the job, and it's really difficult to learn how to connect policy, your ideal vision of the world, and how to actually make a difference with that. And so I set about making that website to serve as a resource for folks that are really trying to get involved. I've been extremely exciting to see the response I've gotten. There's been used in schools and universities around the world, cited by Yale Law Journal Review and all sorts of things. So it's been incredible and I think speaks to the need for further education on this because frankly, I have a master's in public policy from Duke University. They did not teach me how to get a bill introduced or to how to pressure a congressperson. Right. And they're not going to teach you that kind of stuff. So that's kind of what that website is about. And I really encourage people to check it out and if they have interests or things that you're not seeing or needs for resources, reach out. And I'm happy to try to do what I can.

That's so exciting. I definitely am envisioning some kind of workshop for our kids, because I feel like that would be so cool to learn. Oh, wow. I mean, this has been so illuminating. I'm taking away, first of all, composting. And as a personal action, I know you also have a list of what are the most impactful personal actions. And we'll make sure to include that in the show notes because you guys really know what you're talking about. And then I think just this action of going to town halls, you know, finding, signing up for the updates about when your town halls are happening, signing up for Project Drawdown, getting involved in a local organization. I mean, these seem like really actionable things that people can do. It just feels like quite healing actually, to go to a town hall once a month and ask tricky questions, connect with your community. I mean, what a wonderful educational experience for your child. I mean, that is incredible. I, I'm really feeling inspired by, by that just, you know, even just as a piece of a child's education to take them to a town hall once a month. So kind of a little. What do you call it when you throw a baseball the wrong way? Sideball. No, that's not the expression. But what is it?

Curveball.

A curveball. I have a curveball for you amidst all the curveballs I've thrown today. Lots of surprise questions, questions. But I like to finish every show by asking each guest, what's something you're learning right now totally unrelated to what we're talking about? Because my show is really about having a passion for learning and curiosity. So is there, you know, and it can be interpersonal or it could be just a fun fact, something you're studying right now that you want to share.

You know, actually I spent the summer studying aikido, which is basically a pacifist form of martial arts arts. And the whole idea is that it's, it's designed to reduce harm to everybody involved, including the attacker. And so there's a deep, deep philosophy that underlies it. And it was put forth by an individual who survived the atomic bombs in World War II. And he was so devastated by all the violence he saw. He said that, you know, sometimes it is necessary to defend yourself. But what I'm learning through that process is that there's so many implications for advocacy and how we can pose ourselves and how we use our energy efficiently. And we can, we don't have to go out there with our arms flailing and get angry about it. Right. We can use this strategically and I think we can use it gracefully in a way that pushes forward what we want to see in the world. Right. And the vision that we have for the world. So I have been really amazed at the way that, that seeped into my climate world and the way that I've engaged in of a lot Washington D.C. and it's really kind of calmed me down internally. So it's been a wonderful journey, actually.

That's incredible. I love that metaphor of using your energy efficiently to create efficient energy in the world. It's so true. I mean, we can think about these world problems strategically and really make an impact and then feel better because something sad is happening and we're doing something about it. It's a wonderful way to heal. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. For those of you tuning in for the first time, this is Teach your kids. We are a podcast and an online homeschooling community. You can sign up for free and get updates. We do two podcasts a week. Or if you want to become a premium member of the community, we have a WhatsApp community with chess and Minecraft, and I am going to add a climate action group. So parents are interested in talking about this and getting involved, can share ideas and tips and inspire each other. And then, you know, it's just a place where you can ask for advice on parenting or education or anything. You know, if you want to ask for help finding a local organization, we can help you with that. So, you know, I mean, this has been such a goal of mine to have you on the show for so long. I have loved. I think I discovered your work 10 years ago, and it's been. Been such a huge inspiration to me. So helpful, and I just am really grateful for this place that I could learn what I needed to know to make the world a better place. So just thank you so much for all the work you do, and I just am so honored to meet you today, Dan.

Likewise. Likewise. You know, we do a lot of science and a lot of policy, and so when we see people applying this stuff in the real world, like yourself, I mean, it just. I mean, it's more than makes my day. It makes me know that we're actually having an impact. So this has been huge for me, and I just want you to know I'm going to take it back to our staff and I'm going to tell everybody how amazing you are and how great this podcast is and how inspirational it is. So thank you so much for paying attention to our work and inviting us. We were so grateful for it.