Jade Rivera's Insights into Supportive Schooling for Gifted Children and Learning Disabilities

Hi everyone, I'm Manisha and this is teach your kids. We are a show that helps empower parents to curate their child's education to meet their unique needs needs. And today we have a very special episode on neurodiversity. And we're joined by my dear friend of many years, Dr. Jade Ann Rivera. Most recently becoming a doctor, getting her doctorate. And Jade has been helping build micro schools for 15 years. I think she built the first micro school institute that ever existed. She is an educator, an author, a curriculum designer. She specializes in strengths based education and working with twice exceptional and children who have special needs. And she is just so dear to my heart. We started working together many years ago when I was building cottage class, building a platform for micro schools. I heard about Jade's micro school institute and I was thinking, is this a competitor? Am I going to like this person? And I don't know who called who but it was definitely love at first phone call in that phone bo in my co working space in Brooklyn. And anyway, I'm just so happy that you're here to have another conversation with me, Jade. I always feel so happy and energized after we speak. So, so good that I can share all your wisdom with everyone listening today. Thank you. Being here.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm super happy to be here. And all of that love sent right back to you. I really see you as a safe port in the storm.

That's a good metaph.

I always love to say yes to whatever you're doing and whatever you have going on or offer or bring to me.

Thank you so much, Jade. And so I'm trying to figure out where the best place to start is. I really want this episode to serve families who feel like there might be something happening with their child that's making things difficult at home or in school or might already have a diagnosis and are trying to figure out how they can best support their child's learning and so social emotional development. And I know that when you're in that situation as a parent, it just can feel so confusing about what to do or where to start. So I'm hoping we can provide some support there. But I thought it might be good just to kind of start with the basics. And I'm actually curious, what is a learning disability and is that the right term to use? What's happening when a child is diagnosed as twice exceptional on the autism spectrum? Dyslexic? What does that even mean?

Yeah, yeah, thank you. Thanks for asking that. I think that's a good place to Start. What does it mean? It means so many different things to different people. And so I don't pretend to have the definitive answer on that question. I think that the answer to that question is evolving every day as more and more research, neurological research, social research, educational research takes place. And so it's very. I think it's very important at first to realize that this is an emerging and evolving field and our understanding of how it all works is emerging and evolving quite quickly. And so I think that. So firstly, anybody who comes along and says to you, this is what it is and this is how it works, and this is what you need to do should be treated with a fair amount of caution because there's absolutely no way that they. That they would know that, you know. And so. And so, yeah, so I think what we're talking about, we definitely use the term learning disability. I like to use whatever terms the most marginalized people belonging to a marginalized group prefer. That's the term that I'm always going to default to. And so learning disability is the term that people seem to be using right now and accept it makes sense to me because there isn't necessarily anything, you know, their disability exists because of the structures and the hegemonies that they live underneath and that they exist within.

Right. So, for example, the school system would be an example of a hegemony. So it's their brain, how it functions relative to the dominant structure, so to speak.

Yes, exactly. Well said. Thank you, Anisha. And so really we're talking about something. Something they're having an experience outside the norm. They have a unique constellation of needs. And that might pertain to how they show up socially, how they show up attentionally, how they show up academically, or all three, or a combination of two. And often it is a combination. But I do like to tease out those different aspects so that we can get really clear about what we're talking about. And so whether or not people want to pursue a diagnosis is so individual to a family. It has to do with their culture, the culture of their family, the culture that they exist within, their means, and their access to reliable services that speak to that need. And, and so you have a lot of self diagnosis, for better or for worse.

I think every single person I know has diagnosed themselves as some learning disability at some point.

Yes. Yeah. You know, and I'm not here to say whether that's correct or not. And that self diagnosis is always going to be valid as long as people don't have access to reliable, affordable care and diagnosticians and so there's a place for that and it obviously fills a need. And so I think people seek these things when they notice that they're different. They notice that certain structures and ways of being that seem to be working for many are no longer working for them. And I think that it becomes critical to sort of put a fine point on whatever might be going on with that child or with that person cognitively or neurologically. When quality of life is affected, when a person isn't enjoying their experience of life and needs some support and needs some help, that's when I think a diagnosis really becomes critical. Because how you approach various cognitive styles, various ways of thinking, various ways of being, again is individual. And so, yeah, sure.

So an example might be that a child is very anxious going to school or maybe they are acting in a way that's potentially violent towards family members or getting very emotional. Something. You know, I am curious about it because I feel like there's a certain set of children where the situation gets really bad. I mean, they are not able to. People are noticing at school that they are not behaving in a way that works for other people in the community. And sometimes I feel concerned about the children whose issues are a little bit more quiet. I'm wondering because I think one of the things that we're really trying to help people listening with is trying to understand their children and how their brain works. I was wondering if maybe you could provide a few examples of maybe when something is off that might not be noticed and what signs that parents maybe should be looking for. I even think about this in a gendered way. I feel like a lot of times boys are more likely to get homeschooled than girls because they shout louder. Yeah. So I guess that's semi related. I'm curious your thoughts on that as parents are listening.

I mean, yes, boys are more likely to be placed in alternative learning environments, environments that are more designed to their constellation of needs as well as referred for services. And you know, that's just a fact of the matter. I'm never ever trying to be gender essentialists whatsoever. I'm never going to be like boys are like this and girls are like this. I'm never going to be like that. But the facts are as they are, you know, and my experience is, as my experience is, which is many of my micro schools had 15 boys and that one girl, you know, so and so it is what it is, even if it's not ideal. I think that, you know, when they come, when parts I like to Talk about car talk, which might have been an NPR show.

Oh, it was a great NPR show. I have no interest whatsoever in cars, but it's these like hilarious twins in Boston. And my mom and I would just listen to it all the time because they were so funny.

But it was super good to. But that's not really what I'm talking about when I say that we'll create.

Our own car talk. Just about neurodiversity. Yeah, continue.

Yeah, that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is something where you're in motion, you're stuck together, and you're not necessarily engaging in eye contact or that sort of confrontational one on one. And so it creates a of sort space where the, where the child or the person, you know, there's a reason why we like to walk and talk, you know, because it feels less confrontational. It's very human. And so, and so what you'll notice is that that's when sort of the little. The conversations start. I notice I'm different all the way to why can't I do this? And the most tragic is, you know, why am I so dumb or I'm stupid or, you know, just. Or phrases like that, you know. So during those moments often are. During those moments, oftentimes children will reveal how they're actually feeling about their place in the world and their place at school. And so those are moments, those are moments that I tell parents to watch out for. And then, you know, you notice that they're not enjoying the things that they normally enjoy. They're shut down, you know, and then all the way to sort of like classic fight, flight, fawn, freeze. Things that, that we see happen in people who are, you know, experiencing something that their brain and their body doesn't know how to process.

You know, this is so interesting because I feel, I like this idea of being in the car, being in a walk as an opportunity just to check in and see if there are signs of sadness and self doubt. And maybe that could point towards a lear disability. It could also point towards something else. You know, perhaps a parent might learn a way that their child might learn better.

Sure. Yeah. You can definitely learn what's going right with the child in those moments too, you know, and it's not to be confused with, you know, sad, you know, sadness, you know, angst, you know, these kinds of things are a natural aspect of being human, you know, so it can get difficult. You know, your child's not going to be happy all the time. The Time. And so learning how to discern between. Is this a problem or is this just a natural human experience that my child is having and learning and. And learning how to cope with and deal with as they, you know, individuate and self actualize? You know, again, you know, so much is just like, I think so much of how we interact with people and, you know, comes down to discernment and in cultivating that discernment.

Yeah, yeah. Making that space for listening. So I would like to actually talk about learning disabilities in the U.S. i mean, I have seen it change so much. When I was in high school, all we saw was kids who were diagnosed with depression or adhd. I mean, some dyslexic kids and all of the ADHD kids were getting rid of that. And now I feel like there's much more of a culture of looking for these diagnoses and ranging from autism to gifted, and even understanding that being gifted can be learning is a learning disability or a context for understanding your child better. And so I'm wondering, I've read that as many as 20% of children have been diagnosed with a learning disability. How does that sound to you?

So much of this is political, and that's super unique. Unfortunate. You know, it's really just about like, who has structural power, who's trying to hold on to structural power, and, you know, and what results from that sort of push and pull.

And so can we dig into that a little bit more? Because I'm curious, I mean, what. What are the politics of diagnosing learning disabilities and how does that help people stay in power?

Yeah, I think it has to do with who has access to care, whose bodies and minds are considered right and normal, who has access to resources, who's been given greater access to resources. Systemically, you know, everything is political. We're talking about, you know, we're talking about people, essentially, when we use the term politics. We're talking about bodies of people, people. And so. And so really, that's just what I mean. I'm not talking about government necessarily, although clearly that comes into it. I'm just talking about, you know, the structures of power that we exist within. Once again, you know, so insurance, right. Who has access to insurance and the ability to not only pay for a diagnosis, but also the services that come along with it. Is it covered by insurance? Often it's not. You know, these kinds of things really relate back to, again, I hate to keep saying it, the structures that we exist within. And so that has, you know, that how we have to Keep that in the front of our mind as we approach these questions. I think, I think that awareness of something beyond we have to keep in mind and where we exist within there. How many new diagnoses or opportunities for diagnosis have been added to the DSM in the last 5 years and how much do those diagnoses overlap in terms of. We're talking about, like you mentioned anxiety and depression, you know, and so I think, yeah, so I think as long as that sort of ambiguousness exists, it's always going to be difficult to find a diagnosis that fits. And, you know, there's. That shows up in different ways in different contexts. One thing we say is, and I think I'm going to butcher this, but it's, I think it's, I think it's relevant nonetheless, which is, you know, it's important to know that you're a zebra, not a weird horse with stripes. You know, it's. Do you understand what I mean?

Yeah, absolutely. It's a great metaphor.

Yeah. So you want to know what your identity, you know, your identity. Identity matters. And, and at the same time, everybody has to make the decision about how important that is for them personally.

Yeah. And I think, like anything, identity is something that's so helpful for understanding how you operate in the world. And yet at the same time, in order to really be free, you need to detach from your identity. But you can't really detach until you understand it. I think an example from my own life is, you know, feeling like this intense imposter syndrome and, you know, that I wasn't good enough and then starting to learn what imposter syndrome was. And, you know, reading what you wrote about twice exceptional children, a lot clicked for me. You know, I started to understand how, you know, you know, being told I was smart and having trouble with exams and that kind of conflict between who am I as a person? And so. But then I had to stop telling myself I am someone with an imposter syndrome. You know, it's, it's very interesting how that all works. So I do want to dive into some of the main learning disabilities so parents can, who are listening, who might suspect something is up, can try to understand what might be going on with their child. You know, but we're not going to be. Don't diagnose anybody from this show. But this is just. I hope this can be a starting point so that you can begin to understand what's going on and maybe get some support. Maybe it'll give you some new ideas if you have a diagnosis so, Jade, you are really renowned for your work with two E twice exceptional students. You received an award, in fact, from the California association for the Gifted for distinguished service on behalf of gifted and twice exceptional children. And you were a person to watch in the 2e movement by 2e news. And, you know, I'd never heard of this diagnosis before I found your website. So could you tell us what 2e twice exceptional is?

Yeah, absolutely. Happy to. So once again, it kind of depends on how you come at it. So we could be talking about a child who is gifted, so advanced cognitive abilities beyond their age mates with a diagnosed learning disability. So a lot of people don't realize that you can have these advanced cognitive abilities and also be dyslexic or, or have ADHD or something similar like that. Another way of looking at it is you might notice it's, you know, a child might sort of blow you away with their boundary pushing insights, but then sort of the simplest tasks seem to throw them. And you're like, what is this? What is this asynchronous development? What is this all about? You know, we talk about the child who is three ages at once, perhaps, and academically maybe they're, you know, eight. Right. And academically in some subjects they're a high schooler. And then chronologically, you know, they're eight and then socially they're six, you know, and so that's another way to talk about a person who's twice exceptional. Also, we notice in twice exceptional individuals when they're given an IP Q test, when they're given a whisk test, they'll often have very high 99th percentile scores in a certain subtest like verbal Reasoning, Spatial intelligence. And then, you know, they'll have a very low score, below average score of processing speed. And so there's shades of gray in there for sure. But just to give you kind of like a general umbrella on the understanding of what it means to be twice exceptional. I think that does a good job.

Yeah. And just so I understand, I mean, it's so rare that someone has a pure learning disability. There's often a mixture. But if we were to take a child who was diagnosed as gifted or profoundly gifted, but you would not consider 2e, what might the difference look like there?

I mean, when you're speaking about profoundly gifted children. And I think that's. This is another thing that I struggle with. I think it's like 140, 145. In terms of general ability index on an IQ score.

Yeah, it's kind of one in a thousand. You're at the top of one in a thousand.

Yeah, one in a thousand. So extremely rare. So just given the fact that sort of neurotype is so rare, it makes it very difficult to understand. But profoundly gifted people are having an experience, a holistic experience way far outside of the norm. And they're seeing. They're seeing the world through. Through a vastly different lens than most, than most people. And so, you know, they can seem. They. They see. They seem different because they are different. And because we're humans who like to sort of sort and categorize and diagnose, sometimes people say that they seem, you know, there can be a misdiagnosis of autism. They might be autistic. They can just seem autistic under certain circumstances. And so. And so, you know, whether or not. And even. And even recently, there's a conversation happening. If profoundly gifted people even exist, are they just all autistic? I don't have. I don't have a. I don't have a. What's the word I want to use? I don't have a horse in that race. I'm just watching the conversation unfold and paying attention as I can.

Yeah, so I guess, you know, the question was kind of, what's the difference between being too e and being just gifted? And I think, you know, one thing you're saying is that giftedness often comes with some of being, you know, other areas that are weaker while that area is stronger. I mean, there are two diagnoses. There's chewy and there's gifted. And so I'm curious.

I mean, a lot of people, you know, so that is another conversation that's taking place. So, you know, I'm a faculty member at the Bridges Graduate School of Cognitive Diversity, and this is something that we talk about all the time in class, in chats and sidebars. You know, we're just. We're all really fascinated by this and watching the conversation unfold. And certain people are more learned about the, you know, the FMRI data out there and how that speaks to, you know, you know, literal neurological difference. And other people are interested in more of a social model of these things. I sort of err towards more of a social model only because that's where my personal strength lies. I. There's some stuff about the FMRI that you could get into that isn't. Isn't germane to our conversation today in terms of reliability. But again, I'm, you know, I very much am a student of that conversation and watching it unfold.

Yes. For those of you like me, who just googled it, that's functional magnetic resonance imaging, which is a way of measuring brain activity.

Yeah, that's correct. I think that we're going to learn a lot in the next 10 years about what all this means and able and, you know, and develop an ability to tease out the, the sort of nuances of it. But for me, I'm interested in, you know, quality of life. Well, being of children are people being given the opportunities and the resources so that they can live a personally meaningful life and demonstrate their, you know, their strengths and their talents and their abilities in a way that works for them. You know, that's what I care about. I wish that peoples could liberate them themselves from these labels. You know, I think that a label is useful, actually. I'm not anti label whatsoever. You know, it's just about its usefulness for whatever your, whatever an individual's goals are. And I think it can be a jumping off point for a conversation. You know, it's the beginning of a conversation, it's not the end. And so, yeah, and so whether we're talking about gifted, whether we're talking about dyslexic, whether we're talking about both, what I care about is the human, the individual that's in front of me and a way that I can contribute to a better quality of life for them.

Right, right. And I think the value of the twice exceptional diagnosis is just for parents to understand, you know, your, your child might be scoring very well on tests and having really strong social, emotional problems, or they might be incredibly brilliant and doing really poorly on certain tests. And so if you, you know, it can be confusing to see those two things at work happening at the same time. And so that's why I think it's important that people understand that this 2E diagnosis exists and could be part of the reason that you're, you're seeing these contradictions in your child.

Yes, yes, you are. Yes. And that you sort of like, what is, you know, parents, you know, just generally are like, what is this? Like why are they so good at this thing? And then they struggle so much with this other thing. And, and it's when the struggles sort of get in the way of them doing what they're good at, what they love, where their strengths and their talents lie, that's when it becomes an issue to address, you know, and I think, you know, clarity, clarity is, you know, often very calming for people. And so I get that, you know.

I get that, you know, We've talked about certain signs that this could be something to look for in your child. You know, if they're having strong emotional responses, if, you know, they seem pretty smart but they're doing poorly in school, things like that. What are some other, you know, signs, either very blatant or subtle, that a parent might want to, you know, ask their doctor or therapist to see if this could be a diagnosis for their kid?

I think after school, restraint collapse is something that doesn't get talked about enough in this world, which is essentially, the kid is masking so hard and compensating so hard during the school day that they come home and they just have no resources and they melt down or they can't function, they can't do their chores, they can't play. They just need to sit in a quiet room for a while. I think that that is something that people should need to pay more attention to, for sure, because it's real and. And it shouldn't. It shouldn't be that hard, you know, it shouldn't for a person. I don't. I don't think so, you know, whether. Yeah, so essentially just that it should, you know, the school should not be that difficult for a child that they have to come home and sit in a room and do nothing for three hours or they just completely melt down because they're so tapped in terms of internal resources.

Yeah, yeah. And I think looking for those. Am I saying this right? Like, binary relationships, like things that are polar opposites. For example, a lot of parents will say, you know, say my kid is just a nightmare at home, and then the teacher says, they're an angel at school. I don't understand what am I doing wrong? Or the opposite. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Any kind of contradictions like that are a good sign to look out for that, you know, I mean, in any of these learning diagnoses, I've heard the best first step is to talk to your pediatrician. Is that what you would advise?

And.

Does that help? Does it always work? How do you address it when you think that there's something going on with your child?

A lot of these diagnosis are based off of checklists. They're based off of self reporting or reporting on behalf of the child. And so that gets tricky. It's not like you're going to the doctor and being diagnosed with strep throat through a culture. You know, it's essential. It's extremely subjective. And there's, you know, there's. I guess it's extremely subjective in terms, you know, essentially in terms of the skill of the diagnostician. So there have been norms and reliability and validity tests done on some of these questionnaires. But, you know, what is. Is the temperament and disposition of the person who's giving the test and how well are they able to create, you know, a dynamic of rapport with the child or with the parent to elicit the information that's going to contribute to a correct diagnosis? You know, I think that, that, you know, all of that has to. All of that comes into play. If you have access to a pediatrician that gets your kid that you've seen, gets your kid and connects with. With your kid and connects with you, then yes, you know, go talk to your pediatrician. If you don't, then, you know, maybe you want to look for another, another trusted professional through your network of parents, through family members that you can trust and that you can rely on. And so. And so, yeah, so I think that you just have to start talking, talking about to people. I think that there can be a shame, you know, like a shame. Oh, like this is kind of like our family secret, you know, like so and so doesn't do well at this or, you know, we're falling. Parents also be like, why am I, you know, why I'm failing this child? And so it doesn't, you know, I'm failing this child. And that's why they're having these difficulties and I should be better. And so, you know, so they're sort of shut down around the conversation with regards to. To these things. So I guess, actually based off of your question, the first, the first step would be looking within, you know, looking within and saying, okay, you know, and getting real with yourself, you know, how much of this is triggering my own memories from my childhood and the difficulties I had. How much of this is me projecting what I think is normal or wish was normal or wish was different onto the child? How much shame and baggage am I bringing to this conversation? How can I detach and really see this from a, you know, a distanced perspective? Something I talk to families about is really kind of, you know, almost becoming like a data scientist about their child. How often are you seeing this? Under what circumstances? What happened before and after the behavior or the situation that didn't work for your family? These, you know, these are. All this is. In some ways, you know, it's cool because we talk about, you know, we talk about homeschooling a fair amount. And I think that, you know, a sense of sovereignty and power has been stripped from parents trusting their own gut by the, you know, I mean, honestly, by the school system, as the conventional school system and you know, and the medical, medical model that, the deficit based model that they exist within. And so, you know, the first kind of line of defense is with the parent taking back their power, realizing that they are the expert on their child and that they have the ability to track this and, and get to the heart of the matter, you know, themselves or at least begin to get to the heart of the matter themselves. And so, yeah, so like I said, becoming a data scientist and really tracking these, and really tracking this from a distance perspective, from a detached perspective is where I might suggest a family would start. And great news, it's free and you can start today.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, get a piece of paper and a crayon and it doesn't, it doesn't have to be a full time job, even if you start with one thing a day. And you can notice when your child is calm or, you know, in alignment, I would say in alignment or when you feel like something is off and being sad is not, often having a tantrum is not even off. But you know, you know, as a parent and you know, I have a friend who, whose child started lashing out and they went to see a pediatrician that she's being, she's been tested for six months without a diagnosis. And I think that what you say about shame is it's really important. I mean, I don't know if that's what's going on with this family. I mean, it's good my friend opened up to me. But, you know, you can learn a lot in those Facebook parenting groups or by talking to people like me or Jade and the modulo coach community. I mean, we have child life specialists on our team that anyone can reach out to and ask questions. And it's just, you know, it can be so helpful because, you know, first of all, a child, if you have your child exhibits a certain behavior and another child exhibits that same behavior, it doesn't mean that your child and that child have the same issue going on. However, it is a way that you can gather information. And I actually saw this beautiful post in one of the parenting groups I'm a member of. And it was a mother who posted and said, I just wanted everyone to know that today my son got a diagnosis of autism. And the doctor said, the most important thing is I tell people so I'm not in shame. And 300 people commented and supported and cheered that post. So you might really get the opposite reaction. That Expecting and really be able to move forward.

Yeah, true. And also, like, talk to your kid too, you know, I think, like, I think, you know. Yeah, you know, it's good too, you know, be like, have you. What do you notice about yourself? You know, asking them questions? Sometimes it seems like this is difficult for you. Do you. Do you know why? Or, oh, I can tell you're really enjoying this. What about it do you like? You know, I think that kids, I guess I should say depending on the child, many kids enjoy being asked about themselves because they're human and humans like to talk about themselves and know that other people are curious about them, you know, without an agenda, for sure.

And I think, especially in a case where they're siblings and one child is kind of more calm and cool and the other child is having issues that, you know, the child can feel a lot of. Of shame and less loved and like, they're the bad one and then start to embrace that identity. And if you are, you know, in spite of all your stress, if you are able to kind of find those moments of love where you ask them, that can help your child feel accepted and become a data scientist with you.

What's it like to be you? You know, what's it like to be you?

Yeah, that curiosity is so key. So how about autism, Jade? The autism spectrum, what is it? And I mean, there's so many different varieties of autism and, you know, and how. What might be some signs that your child might be on a spectrum?

Firstly, it's really important for me to say that I'm not autistic. And so I'm speaking from a very long career of working with autistic children. And so I'm. And also my own educational experience through my teacher training and being a doctor of cognitive diversity. But I do think the fact of the matter is that I'm not autistic. And so I don't presume to speak on behalf of the autistic community. I think the autistic community is doing a great job of speaking on their own behalf of what autism is. And so. And so while I'm going to answer the question, I. I do so hesitantly, to be honest with you. And so. And then it's so important to realize, you know, and this is a term, this is a phrase that people use often, which is when you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person, you know, there's no person that's sort of like the banner of, or the face or the poster child of Autism, you know, and it can look so differently depending on your ethnicity, your family culture, your socioeconomic status, where you live in the country, you know, and so it's important to. It's important to notice that probably my favorite way of talking about autism is asking, what is your child's special interest? What is the thing that they love the most in the world, that they can spend the most time, you know, to the exclusion of nearly everything else? What is the thing that they know inside out, can read a million books about. Can read the same million books about and not get tired of them, and is just, you know, almost. Almost fixated on, you know, what is their special interest. And so oftentimes, and, you know, talking about. A lot of kids love dinosaurs, you know, and they talk about, you know, air trains, you know, and they love. They love those things, and they. They, you know, seek out information about them and enjoy information about them. But we're talking about something a bit beyond. We're talking about, you know, a sophisticated understanding of this special topic. And oftentimes, I. It's things that aren't the typical stuff that kids love, like dinosaurs or trains. You know, maybe it's, you know, a low social battery, a confusion or a. Or a dislike around why conventional, typical humans act the way that they do and want the things that they want. Misunderstanding of hierarchy is another way that I would begin to wonder, okay, this person isn't naturally noticing who's in charge and who's making the rules and when it's time to speak versus when it's time to listen. So we're talking about social cues here. When that seems to be sort of out of sync or out of step for the child. I think that you might want to start thinking about autism, and whether or not a diagnosis or whether or not a diagnosis of autism is important is important. And so, yeah, so those are some signs, for sure. Yeah. And, like, that's not going to be everybody, you know, that's not. I'm just. I'm speaking very generally here.

Yeah. And so that resonates with you. It's something that you might ask your doctor to consider or start reading books about whatever helps you. I love that. And, yeah, we don't have to go too much into the neuroscience of autism today, because I know you're more interested in the social piece of it. So moving on to adhd, we're kind of following the Alphabet here. So I just kind of see everywhere people calling themselves adhd, almost like it's an adjective rather than a learning disability. Which is, you know, interesting. Do you what, what actually is ADHD and what is going on? You know, as opposed to someone who's just kind of unfocused and hyperactive.

I think that everybody has to have, I just want to speak to that for a moment. Everybody has to have the conversation with themselves about their self diagnosis and they have to, you know, this sort of idea that everybody's a little ADHD or everybody's a little autistic really distracts from us understanding and serving those that actually are to ask yourself, you know, are you, are you experiencing these characteristics or these symptoms because you have a certain neurotype, or are you living at a time under capitalistic oppression and imminent species death due to climate change? Because that those things will make you act, you know, an understanding of those things will make you act in ways that you might not otherwise if you were able to have a calm nervous system and exist in a, you know, in a world that of people who took care of each other and that took care of the environment.

And so I mean, not to mention, yeah, like social media and I mean we just had Nir Eyal on the show and he was talking. I mean we're so distractible, there's so much information flooding at us. How do we possibly focus?

Yes, yes, absolutely. And that's that beauty of, that's one of the beauties of autism is that ability to access hyper focus and access, access flow and really and really, really concentrate on something deeply is such a, it's such a beautiful thing. And when allowed to flourish and when allowing the, when giving space for the child to become self aware about that aspect of themselves, it leads to really, really beautiful things. And so just a little plug for, just a little plug for hyper focus, which is also an aspect of adhd. There is research that points to strength based everything as being the way to contribute to a child or a person's well being, you know, overall and in the long term. And so in terms for adhd, what do I look for? I look for an extreme need for novelty. Just going through things. Okay, I'm on, on to the next thing, onto the next thing. Really needing novel experiences in order to find meaning and to thrive. You know, again the hyper focus and an ability to access states of flow and unusual ability to access states of flow is important. Understanding, sort of needing to develop one's own systems for making a plan, performing the plan, reflecting on the plan. So I'm speaking about executive function. So really needing to create personal systems in order to do, to do those things, I think is another aspect of adhd. And. Yeah, and so, yeah, so I think that's. Those are some markers, those are some signs that I would look out for to wonder if. To wonder if you're adhd.

And I would like to take this to a whole other dimension, which is parents with ADHD who have kids with adhd. And one of the things that I have seen, you know, in homeschool groups quite frequently is people say, I'm either really struggling with homeschooling or I could never homeschool because I have adhd. And I'm curious what I kind of feel like. First of all, people have a very kind of. I don't like to say incorrect, but there's a lot of myths around homeschooling that it has to be 9 to 3, super organized school every day. And so I think if a parent has trouble getting organized and it might be difficult to envision that you could possibly create an. And stick to a schedule with your child. But actually, a lot of learning can happen in the flow, and it can be much more simple. It can be an hour of math and an hour of reading every day. So there's lots to be done in that department. But in general, I mean, if you're someone who has trouble focusing and you're trying to help heal your child with adhd, I mean, how do you go about healing yourself?

And, yeah, I don't know that healing is really the term. I think maybe just like supporting, you know, I think supporting is the term that I would, you know, helping.

It's a good reminder because we don't see this as like, there's something wrong with you that you have adhd. But, you know, maybe what you were saying, the hegemony. How do you pronounce that word? But if, you know, the way you're operating, it's having difficulty fitting with the way the structures you're in are operating. There are things you can do to support yourself.

I think, you know, we talk about. One of the things we talk about is routine, not schedule, right? So it's not we're doing math at 11 o'. Clock. It's, it's. We do, we get up, we eat breakfast, we brush teeth, we do math, you know, and it's like those things aren't happening like clockwork, but they are happening nonetheless. And I think you speak to a really great point, which is that, you know, homeschool isn't school at home, you know, and a lot of the structures that exist at school exist because People are trying to serve a bunch of different kinds of kids and a bunch of different kinds of kids in a linear and a concrete fashion inside, you know, four walls or whatever. And so you don't have. You're not working under the same constraints that a conventional teacher at a conventional school. School is working under. And that's great news because that means that you can create an educational environment and engage in the education practices that work for you. And I think we come back to this idea of this, of empowering the parent or helping the parents uncover their own power and let them know that, you know, this is something you can do. You can do this, you can do it on weekends, you can do it with, you know, helpers, tutors, online classes. It's just wild to me, like, how much support and access to resources of all income levels are out there for homeschool parents right now completely. When I was starting in this world, there was nothing online. There's so much out there now. And so, you know, if you let it be fun, it can be fun.

You know, it can be so fun. I mean, honestly, if you think you have ADHD or just are having trouble organizing, you just join modulo and I'll give you a routine, you know, fine. Just ask for support. And, you know, and I feel like, you know, if you went through our traditional school system with a learning disability, it's natural you're going to have a lot of shame, a lack of self confidence. You might not. You might be fine. And so part of the work we do together is to help restore that confidence because it is, you know, it's difficult to do anything if you're. If you lack confidence.

Yeah. Oh, I mean, yeah, absolutely. I actually have some writing coming out on some substack in the next month that speaks to that.

And can I get a preview? You could use a dose today.

Yeah. Realize that. Sure. Of course, that, you know, you don't conflate school success with parenting success, you know, and those are two very different things. And one. Yeah. So anyway, those are two very different things. Things. And so, and moving on from one of the only social safety nets, you know, however well it works, that exists in our American culture, to do things on your own is. Is a rejection. And, and other people, you know, some other people will raise eyebrows about you deciding to go your own way. Who do you think you are? Why do you, you know, and, and so learning to tune out that noise. Tuning out that noise early and often is something I would suggest to parents.

Yeah. I mean, tuning out can be hard. And again, support. That's how you. That's how you get through it. I just. This is something I say on almost every episode, is that we function in these isolated nuclear families, and if we are going to help educate our. Our children and lead happy lives, we do kind of have to have support. It doesn't work. Parenting doesn't really work in a vacuum.

You need to never. And then it was never meant to. You know, we were on this earth living and learning for thousands of years before the advent of conventional education and compulsory schooling. And so you have that sort of evolutionary wisdom to fall back on and. And so access that for sure.

Yeah. And you have people like me and Jade who are just chomping at the bit to give you advice, you know, so please humor us. But let's talk about three learning disabilities, which I would kind of really say are related to academics. Hopefully I can pronounce them correctly. Dyslexia, dysgraphia, and the really tricky one, dyscalculia.

Did I do that right even? I mean, I have a friend and colleague who did her dissertation on dyscalculia, and she's like, say it how you want. I don't know. Different people say it differently. We're talking about language processing, we're talking about, you know, in terms of reading and writing. And with dyscalculia, we're talking about with numbers and arithmetic and, you know, functions. And then with dysgraphia, we're talking about an ability to. We're talking about fine and gross motor skills and the development of those things and how they show up for the child in terms of their ability to balance, to write with a pencil, to sit in a chair, to use a keyboard.

So let's kind of really break all of these down. So starting with dyslexia, there's. And dyslexia is not the only reading challenge. I mean, there's also. I mean, there's so many. There's reading processing disorder, and then there's dyslexia. Those are different. There's also visual impairment. You know, a lot of reading disabilities are misdiagnosed. A child, their eyes aren't coordinated. Coordinated well together. So there's a lot that could be going on there. And you know, what. What actually is dyslexia? What's going on in the brain?

I'll riff on that personally, but I'm not going to really put myself professionally out there as a. As a. As an expert on that. That aspect of it. And so. And so, yeah, so if you notice that reading and writing. And one of the things that we notice with dyslexic students is that not only are they spelling incorrect, they're spelling incorrectly in terms of how they incorrectly spell things. So they might spell theater five different ways in an essay. And so that's often one. One thing that you can. That you're like, okay, I think if you see that on a piece of paper, if you see a child doing something like that, you might be like, I think we're. I think we're dealing with some dyslexia here. Extreme pattern recognition, like, socially and philosophically, is a real streng. Dyslexic people.

And.

A slower than typical rate of reading in terms of fluency, an inability to sort of engage with phonics and sight words can also point to a dyslexic child or dyslexia and the child.

Yeah.

And so then we're just. We're creating accommodations. We're creating supports around that, which, you know, dyslexia isn't something you grow out of, and it's. It's. But it's something that you create supports, personally create supports, and that the people who care for you create supports around so that you can, you know, function. And those are. And it's important to suggest. It's important to say that those aren't crutches. You know, I think a lot of. I think a lot of the time people are like, oh, like, they need to learn how to. They need to learn how to, you know, do this on their own without. Without the crutches of these accommodations or these supports. But, you know, you wouldn't do that in a person. For a person who's in a wheelchair. You wouldn't be like, it's time for you. I know your legs, you know, don't walk, but it's time for you to figure out how to walk without this wheelchair. It's like, that's just ridiculous. And the same idea can be extended to people with learning disabilities as well. Let them use the things that are working for them so that they can thrive and get through a task with ease.

I mean, in the same way, it's like, don't impose your structure on them. And I would even say, I think it's one in six children or people who have dyslexia. And, you know, that's a very large percentage of the population. So it's basically what that says to me is that, you know, the reading curriculum we're using is not working at all for One in six, probably more than one in six children. But those working the worst for. And you know, I generally suggest, I mean, there's some really wonderful, wonderful curriculum called Nessie that's designed for dyslexic children. It's based on the science of reading. We'll definitely do an episode on that at some point. But a lot of reading curricula is not designed according to, to what extensive neuroscientific studies show us about how children learn how to read. And yet because of political reasons, it's being many reasons, it's being kind of forced on kids. And so I don't want to say that if you are, you have a child who has dyslexia, you absolutely must use a scientific phonics based approach that follows the sequencing because again, I think that every child is different. And what works for most dyslexic children might not work for your child. You do have to trust your gut. But I would say, you know, I mean, if the reading curriculum at school is not working, try Nessie Wild Reading. If you don't want to do a screen based curriculum is also based on the science of reading. And it's great for dyslexic children. So you have a curriculum that meets them where they are and helps them learn as they learn. It's really supportive. So dysgraphia is what I want to go into because I think about dysgraphia as having trouble with handwriting. And I know that there's a lot of other issues that can cause resistance, resistance to handwriting, including being on the autism spectrum, sensory processing issues. So can you kind of help us understand if a child's having difficulty writing when that might be a sign of dysgraphia? And also you kind of talked a little bit about other struggles that can be related to dysgraphia.

I think when you see low muscle tone on a child, child, an inability to skip, inability to do a somersault, if they're sort of, if you notice them compensating for their ability to sit up straight or to sit in a chair, or they hold their, they, they seem incapable of holding a pencil in the way that they're, you know, that, that they're meant to or that they've been taught to. Those are all examples of, you know, those all might be examples of dysgraphia or of dysgraphic tendencies in the child. And so those are the cues to really look out for if they are, you know, otherwise doing great physically and are having difficulty getting their thoughts out on the Paper in terms of handwriting and they're experiencing frustration around the sort of slowness of handwriting versus their processing speed and the big ideas that they have, then we might not be dealing with dysgraphia, we might be dealing with something else.

And I think also, I mean, sometimes that fine motor stuff can be linked to autism as well. Am I, am I right in that? And the kind or, or, or the sensory processing where it's physically painful, but I think that is definitely a good place to start. I mean, I know for some kids, not infrequently, I see a kid who just can't stand writing so much. They're crying.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Unfortunately you do see that.

Wow. Yeah. If your kid is crying when they have to write, I mean, get it looked into. I mean, don't talk to them. Ask them what's going on. Explore. Be curious. Be curious.

Well, and ask yourself how, how necessary is it, you know, like, how necessary is it for them to write? Can they use speech to text? Can they keyboard? Can they, you know, can you scribe for them? Those are all totally legit ways to communicate through the written word. And, and so I think that we can be, get really fixated on a single strategy for solving a problem or for going about, going about something. And it just isn't, it just doesn't need to be like that.

It doesn't have to be like the voice to text is a way to communicate. Typing is a way to communicate. And we had Julie Bogart who built the Brave Writer program on his show. She's great and she talks about this idea of if your child says something cool, write it down. They don't have to necessarily write it down. You can write it down and then they've written, they've written something and that can be a great way to get started.

You just develop so much goodwill with a child that, you know, and sometimes, you know, and I've seen this happen, which is you're supporting them in their written self expression and one day they get to the point where they're ready to do it on their own and themselves. And it's like you never had, you never had an issue around this. And so, you know, allow space, space for that to potentially happen.

So we're probably, you know, we're not going to have time to address every single learning disability. And that probably would not be so interesting for everyone listening. But you know, if you, if we, if you have, your child has a learning disability or you're curious about a learning disability that we haven't addressed today. You can definitely write us in the comments, your question, and we will absolutely respond to you. You. We're here for you. But I would like to talk a little bit about sensory processing disorder because I think it's one that's often overlooked and pretty significant. Can you share what that is?

Yeah, I. So a sensory overwhelm. So, gosh, I was on. I was on a ferry the other day, and as the ferry, there was these kids with their moms on. And I'm not diagnosing this child, by the way, based off of one interaction with them, but. And I. And I. And I noticed, like, this stark contrast when the fairy was about to dock and they, you know, blasted their horn. You know, there were six kids. Five of them were like, that's scary. And they laughed and ran away. But one kid just immediately burst into tears and with. Just. Just could not be consoled. And the mom had to take him away and take a break and process with him and create some space with him. And I was like, there's a really, you know, so, you know, so looking for instances like that, where somewhere, something loud, something. If things are bright, if there's a lot of people around, if it's particularly hot or particularly cold. Those are all, you know, so sensory. Right. So we're about talking. Talking about the senses, you know, when they seem to reach sensory overload at a rate that's quicker than, you know, than, you know, typical. You might be talking about sensory processing disorder.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Even it could be something like going to a clothes store or a museum. It just feels like too much.

Yes, absolutely. In certain clothing as well. And, you know, when they. When it's not just uncomfortable, it's painful, you know, it's distressing. That's when we might be talking about sensory processing disorder.

Yeah. And it's just so important to look out for because you might feel like your child is, you know, irritable or overreacting or a crybaby. And those are all natural things to feel. You know, nobody is expecting anybody to be the perfect parent. You can be annoyed at your kid. Your kid can be a total jerk sometimes, but it's important to remember that that child might actually be in pain. You know, they might get a hug and feel like knives or burning sensation and holding a pencil might be physically painful for them. So it's very. It's critical to be on the lookout because you might not actually realize how much physical pain you. Your child is in when they're reacting in that way. And I do, I kind of want to bring this back to giftedness because there's another thing that happens in gifted and profoundly gifted children that I was actually not aware of, which is that sometimes these children are, you know, their brains are processing so much information and often the first response they have is actually emotional. So I think that it's important that people recognize with gifted children that emotional, those strong emotional responses can be part of a brain that's taking in so much information and trying to make sense of it all.

Yeah, a sensitivity to the human experience. When we're talking about giftedness, we have to, we have to be tread lightly and be careful about what we're projecting onto the child versus what they are actually demonstrating. And how much of that has to do with access to resources and the education level of the caregivers and the home. Because one thing we do know about giftedness is that it exists equally. It occurs, you know, at a constant rate. It occurs at a constant rate despite gender, despite socioeconomic status, despite race. You know, you. When we say one in a thousand, we don't just mean one in a thousand white kids, we mean one in a thousand kids.

So what I'm wanting to say is that it's, it's complex and it's helpful for all of us to understand these learning diagnoses. And if your child is gifted or you think they might be gifted, it's not good or bad. It's just a framework for understanding your child and how wonderful to have more information available to you.

I think self awareness is the first step to developing self regulation skills and self soothing skills. And so anytime you can become, and it's also key to developing, you know, empathy and meaningful human connection and relationships and finding your purpose or your purposes in the world. And so anytime that you can develop self awareness around, around yourself, I think it's going to be, is going to be time well spent. And as. And so how you might support that in another, you know, is through understanding these things. And you know, whether people enjoy the term gifted giftedness or not, I don't, you know, like I, again I mentioned this earlier, like I don't care, you know, just, I don't.

I just don't care.

You know, if you're saying gift gifted to me like I'm like cool. You say you don't. If you, if you say you're not, then cool, you know, like, all right, it's just not. I just don't. I. And that might just be a function of being in this world. For so long. I know that it doesn't make a person better or more valuable, you know, intrinsically. And. And so I, you know, I'm just like, do you have the things in place that you need in order to thrive and feel as if you're, you know, affecting reality and able to act in accordance with your value, in alignment or accordance with your values? You know, do you have those things? And some people will say, you know, all children are gifted, or they'll say, giftedness doesn't exist, or these kinds of things. But, I mean, I don't agree with that. I just don't agree with that because, I mean, are you trying to tell me that you've never sat in a classroom with somebody who was just getting it faster and on a deeper level than 99% of the other people sitting in that room? Are you telling me you've never had that experience before? Have you never sat in the classroom or in a learning situation with a person who was just light years beyond the content matter in terms of their understanding and clearly, obviously needed an advanced level of instruction? Well, then you aren't paying attention, you know, and. Because you definitely have been. And those people deserve dignity. They deserve respect. They deserve an education that works for them. And. And again, sadly, it's become associated with a value judgment. It's political and. And it's unfortunate that it's gone down that way.

So, Jade, I mean, I know that there are going to. There's amazing people tuning in who are just curious about learning more about humanity, or maybe they're even excited that they just got a diagnosis and they want to learn how they can support their children. But I know there is at least somebody listening today who feels completely overwhelmed. You know, maybe their child, you know, has got an autism diagnosis or has adhd, and they just feel like they have no time. They're completely depleted. They're. You know, the idea of being calm and asking their children questions is impossible because they're so in a state of fight or flight and just completely overwhelmed. And so, I mean, can we give some words of encouragement to that person?

For sure, for sure. You know, I have people. People come to me. I hear this from adults a lot who receive an adult diagnosis. And they're like, I know that I'm supposed to look at this as a superpower. I know that I'm supposed to accept and celebrate my difference, but I have to tell you, I am just not there. And I. And I think that that is perfectly natural and human. Mourning entering into, you know, mourning and grieving the life and the opportunities that you thought that you were going to have and the way that you thought life was going to be is very natural and human. And so creating space, space for mourning what was so that you can embrace what is and what will be, I think is, is, is essential. No, don't, don't emotionally bypass yourself or the sadness or the grief that you might be experiencing. It's important that you process that and identify it, process it, integrate it, so that you can create space for that celebration, for that excitement. I, yeah, I think that that's one unfortunate downside of, of the neurodiversity movement for a lot of people is that we skip over that morning phase, which is maybe you don't have it, you know, which is great, good for you. But if you do, if you are experiencing grief or mourning around what was or what you thought could be, know that that's, let yourself have that space. Give yourself some compassion and some self empathy because it's natural, you know, and.

And ask for help and, and even beyond that, I mean, what about the parent who is just exhausted? I mean, maybe every time they go out the playground, their child hits somebody. Maybe their child just will not go to sleep, is uncontrollable. Maybe their child just needs constant support, going to the bathroom, eating. How do you even. Maybe their child just refuses to do any schoolwork at all. Where do you start? Where do you start when you have so many practical things that you need to take care of in your child and you don't even have a moment to, to get that journal and start writing down, like, where do you find the crack to move towards peace?

Naomi Fisher is someone who speaks to this that I respect a lot. She talks about low demand parenting. And I think looking into low demand parenting is something that I would suggest that these people do. And you know, maybe you don't. You know, I think that allowing your family and your routine to look wildly different from what you see on TV or what you're told is normal or what the neighbors are doing is in order to, you know, save the sanity of your home and of yourself is, you know, is it, you know, please, please, please, please, please, please, you know, do that.

Yeah. And I love that book recommendation and you have also written two books now, I think, about neurodiversity. Could you live underwater a design thinking and STEM curriculum and do more of what makes you awesome micro schools for choice, exceptional children. So there's a lot of great resources and I would just say again, one more Time, get support. Because often I'll have parents reach out to me with some heartbreaking situation. You know, their child is autistic, they're 16, they're doing 10 year old level math, they're trying to homeschool, they're getting a divorce and they're completely exhausted. You know, their child refuses to do math. And I'll say, oh, you know, well, you know, I empathize, you know, that's so difficult. You know, I would say consider changing their math curriculum to something that they find more enjoyable.

And I think also, you know, think about what it might look like to let go of math for a year if your child isn't feeling, if your child is in a constant state of stress and is, you know, is activated in terms of their nervous system and is experiencing fight or flight. They're not going to internalize those lessons anyway. We need to back way up, back way up and establish a sense of psychological safety or physical safety, you know, to the degree that you can't, that's possible. And then think about math. You know, I think there are plenty of adults, you know, in the world that don't know how to do long division and they live fulfilling and meaningful lives.

That's why parents are so afraid to teach their kids math, because they don't remember second grade math. You know, they're, they're doing fine.

Yeah. So you have to really put things in context, you know, and, and so, and that's, and that's fine. And I do think seeking support of a professional, you know, I think, I think is fantastic. And again, I just urge discernment around what's helping versus what's hurting and what's actually useful. Taking what's useful and absolutely trashing the rest.

Absolutely. And I think another point I wanted to add is that if you're struggling with this, you know, you have the right to write, write me more than two emails. You can write me a hundred emails, you can write me every single day. I mean, you know, the modulo community, we have certified child life specialists and people like Jade who work with us and will offer tailored suggestions anytime you want. So, so please take advantage of that resource. And you know, I mean, I think it costs like $15 a month to join, but we absolutely give a scholarship to every single person who asks. You do not have, have to say what your situation is financially. It's a total trust basis, you know, you can't afford it, you need it, do it and then just please ask for help. That is just, I really want people to take away with that. Because ultimately, if you can't ask for help for yourself, do it for your child. Because by not asking for help, you're actually doing them a disservice. Jade and I've worked with hundreds of different kinds of kids and we have a lot of observations to share with you. But then we also know other families who have similar situations. We know doctors and consultants, we know nonprofits. I mean, there's so much available that you can take advantage of if you really tune into that network.

Yeah, I really do actually think of you and your substack as the definitive guide to homeschooling and what's possible and what's out there in the community that you've created. I've watched you, you know, basically fish for resources and data and experience and collate that information and synthesize it in an extremely approachable and accessible way. Anybody who's interested in modular learning, anything, just wanting to supplement their child's education, either wholly or, you know, or piece by piece, you know, just go and look at what Manisha has put together because it's beautiful, it's accessible, and. And it's extremely well done.

Thank you so much. And I wrote everything except one chapter which was written by Jade on cognitive diversity. Kind of somewhat co authored because it's every single learning diagnosis that we have talked about here and then what to look for. And then I have provided curriculum recommendations for that disability. It might not work for your child, so take it with a grain of salt, but. But I found those by just combing through thousands of comments in parents groups from parents whose children had that disability and cross referencing it with teachers and specialists. And Jade gave me a lot of great recommendations. So we'll share that guide with you. Jade. I mean, the time just flies when I'm with you. I don't even know how much this time has gone by. And I could just keep chatting with you forever because I just love you so much and there's so much to discuss. And I think one thing I would just like to ask you. Is there anything really key that we've missed today that you want to make sure gets heard before we wrap up?

Identify your child's strengths. Plan for your child's strengths and talents. Support their strengths and talents consciously and with intention. And if that means ignoring their challenges and their weaknesses, feel free to do so because. Because that is the avenue, that is the access point that you are going to develop, where you are going to develop, you know, a meaningful connection with your child that is Going to ripple positively out into the world through the rest of their lives. And yeah. And so if I could double down on anything, it's strengths first.

Strengths always strengths first, strengths first. And, and cultivating that relationship is so key. This means the practice of gratitude. And gratitude helps us deepen relationships too. All right, so here's the golden question I ask every guest. This show is about a passion for learning. Is there anything that you've learned recently or you're studying ideally completely unrelated to the topic today that, that you might like to share with us?

Something that I'm really interested in right now is something is a place called the Institute of Othering and Belonging at Berkeley and Design for Othering. Design for belonging and what it means to create systems and spaces that create a sense of belonging, that support a sense of. Sense of belonging. I'm really very interested in that. And, and so I want to, I've been looking at their website and watching other videos and I've been really, I've been super into it and so I would, I would suggest checking that out because it's related to a lot of the things that we've talked to, talked about today. But it's also unrelated and I don't know, maybe it's not unrelated, but it's related to what we're talking about. But it's not, it's maybe not obviously. Maybe it's not obviously connected to some people.

Yeah, I mean I think there's definitely a thread of community and relational aspects of intelligence that has big part of this and belonging and inclusivity of all different kinds of minds as Temple Grandin would say so famously wonderful Jade. So Jade is an incredible consultant. I often use her in our work in various capacities. What are ways that parents or organizations can take advantage of your services?

Yeah, absolutely. So I am recently. This isn't something that I'm like soft launching this here on your podcast, which is I've recently been named the director for the strength based assessment lab that we're about to launch at the BRIDGES Graduates Graduate School of Cognitive Diversity. And what we offer there is actually a full assessment of your child's strengths and working and identifying those strengths through some through field tested assessments developed by essentially the mother of twice exceptionality, Dr. Susan Baum and her and her collaborator and her partner, Dr. Rob and Shader. And so these are assessments that inform how a child is taught in the classroom, taught outside the classroom and how they are supported through their strengths and through their talents in every aspect of their life, whether they're homeschooling or going to conventional school or something in between. And so I'm very excited about this new role that I'm taking on and what it means for the neurodiversity movement and the positive psychology movement and the potential and what it could mean for children with learning disabilities and twice exceptional children.

Wonderful. Congratulations.

Get at me for that. Yeah, definitely get at me for that. I'm in love with Substack. Manisha. I only joined Substack because you were like, you got to get on Substack. I'm like. I'm like, what? But then I did, and I'm just, like, so happy to be there. So definitely check out my substack.

It's one of the only substacks I recommend. I'm very particular. Yeah, it's wonderful.

Wonderful. Thank you for that. And. And then you can just find me on LinkedIn. I'm fairly active on LinkedIn. Even if I'm not posting. I know that it's a little bit of a wasteland there.

Yeah, yeah. And you have a website?

I do, yeah. My website is, like, not that great. So I think it's just kind of a placeholder. If you really want to find Me substack or LinkedIn is where to go.

So there's lots of great places to find you. We'll include in the comments the Substack website, the books and Jade. I love you. You're such a great friend. Thank you for being with all of us today, and we can't wait to hear your questions and comments. I really hope you'll take our advice to heart to reach out and ask for help, because we're really excited to support you in your next step.