Modulo's Interview with Ellen Crain (Founder of Homeschoolboss.com)

Hi, everyone. I'm Manisha, the founder of Modulo. We are a community for secular homeschoolers. We provide learning resources, community and expert support for families who are designing their children's education as a supplement or replacement to traditional school. And I am so excited and honored to have Ellen Crane here from Homeschool Boss. She provides a really important service to homeschooling families, which is giving their children the opportunity to get evaluated and see how well they're learning relative to their peers. What are strengths, what are challenges, and specifically focusing on offering the MAP Growth test. So, Ellen, I'm sure you can talk about your work a little bit better than I can, and I was wondering if you could just start by telling us a little about your story and what inspired you to start your company.

Well, I started homeschooling. Well, I started Homeschool Boss when I was a homeschool mom. As any homeschool parents out there are well aware, an aspect of homeschooling is that you kind of work yourself out of a job. And I was seeing that my kids were getting more and more independent, and I had some time. I was. I just didn't. I didn't feel like I was using my time as well as I could. And so I started looking for some. Something to do, a way to add some income to our family and that kind of thing. And as a homeschool parent in Minnesota, Minnesota, like a lot of states, has an annual testing requirement for homeschoolers. So I was familiar with testing, and I was also unhappy with what our options were because a lot of the tests that are available to homeschoolers are older paper tests. And sometimes there are even older paper tests that have been converted to computer tests, maybe even not by the original test publisher. And when you use an older test, then your kids are compared to kids from, you know, 10, 15, as much as 50 years ago. And the data you get seems really convincing, but it can be really misleading. And I had that experience with my oldest. We'd been testing every year, and he had been doing well, and we'd had kind of an unschooling philosophy through most of elementary school. And then I had the opportunity for him to take a. A current test through one of the talent searches, and he bombed it. It was really shocking. It was terrifying, because I thought I had this kid who was way ahead. And turns out that there were some important things that he had missed. And that really brought home to me why it's important if you're. Especially if you're Testing that you look into what test you're using and is it recent? Is it. Are you following all of the administrative guidelines? Because as soon as you have those numbers in front of you, it's just, it's. We're all human. We're going to believe them, even if we tell ourselves that we don't care about standardized testing. So it's. That was what drew me to trying to improve the options for homeschoolers when it comes to assessment.

Yeah. I think that I really resonate with your last point about even if we're, you know, anti standardized testing, when we get these results in, they do matter to us.

So.

So it can be a valuable framework to help compare how your child is doing relative to another child their age, even though that isn't the be all and end.

All.

Right.

And what I, I feel as a parent is that it's. Well, I, I'm making these unusual choices for my kids.

Right.

And so. And, you know, they, they're on board, but they're also kids. They can't be responsible for this stuff. And so I feel as a parent, it's my responsibility to, you know, keeping. Be keeping an eye on things and making sure that I'm not, you know, damaging them or anything, which is generally homeschooling. You're not going to damage your kids when you homeschool them. But it just. I liked knowing that there were. But I was checking in and making sure that we were pretty much checking the boxes and that we were. They were on track to be able to have the kinds of choices I want them to be able to have in life. And.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it certainly adds a level of comfort and security for families to know, here's what you're doing. Well, here's what you could improve upon without, you know, feeling like, oh, my gosh, homeschool was a terrible choice or homeschool was an amazing choice. There's a lot of nuance in between.

Right. And we have a lot of flexibility, too. And sometimes what you might find out is, you know what? All right, so last year we were really focusing on math, and so the reading scores didn't go up that much. But we know why and it's not a crisis. And we can, you know, we'll just adjust how we're doing things a little bit. So. And so. And honestly, the. What we've. I was a little surprised with is that parents are actually most likely to be upset if their kid scores very high. Really?

Why is that?

Because it's it's intimidating because the idea, you know, suddenly if you have a kid who's, you know, a solid, you know, 85% kind of performer, well, then you can, you know, that you can buy standard curriculum and they're probably going to do well with it and that you have, you know, what to do. But if you are, if you have a kid who is the 99th percentile, then it can be really challenging to know what to do or at least, you know, you can kind of panic because you hear stories of 12 year olds going to college and that kind of thing, which is, I mean, I, I'm sure some parents are excited about that, but that would scare the heck out of me. So I, I, I think that's kind of, it's, it's, but anyhow, yeah, I agree with you that it can, it's comforting, it's helpful to know where you are and there's a lot of, and even if it's initially intimidating, it's still good to know where you are. So, so, yeah, so helpful.

And at modulo, we have a lot of families who have come to us for support because their child has been diagnosed as gifted or profoundly gifted. And while that might seem like great news, I think there's definitely challenges that are associated with having a child who it is a learning difference. What do you, when these families kind of freak out because their children have scored in the ninth percentile, what, what kind of guidance do you give them and how they can support their children's learning?

Well, it, you know, obviously different kids have different needs. Even those high achieving kids. The main thing, I, well, suggest that.

They.

Don'T worry about pushing them because generally kids like that, they're going to pull you along. So for when it comes to things like math, what we recommend is that you don't skip years ahead generally that you want to, that it's better to accelerate through a standard curriculum so you're covering everything and just go quickly if they get it right away, as opposed to jumping too far ahead and possibly missing something that will cause more headaches later. For reading, there are a lot of good resources that are flexible. There's a lot of. Because there tends to be more variation in how well kids read. So with math, kids who are in school don't have the opportunity to get way ahead in math for the most part. So there are fewer resources for highly gifted math kids. But for reading there is. Now, what's the, the gifted society that you test into starts with an M. Oh, mensa. Yeah, MENSA has A a kids reading challenge which I you know, if you want to do the reading challenge, that's great but it's. I just like it as a great book list. They have challenging age appropriate books for a wide range of ages. That's one resource I really like a lot. I also like if you have kids who have like if you have a. An 8 year old with a college level Lexi level. Generally what I recommend is that you don't accept. Don't worry about getting their pleasure reading up at that level and instead maybe seek out just some informational articles at that level. So they have. They have a little bit of experience reading those texts that stretch them but you aren't asking them to exhaust themselves reading a. A chapter book like that. And one good place to find that kind of thing is newsy la and but that has. They have. It's a free website and it lets you. So you can select topic articles on a wide range of topics and then adjust the Lexile level of the article. So it's also a great thing for kids who, you know, if you have a dyslexic kid who you want to encourage them to do work on their decoding but you don't want to give them articles that are, you know, written for kids who are much, much younger, you can find them an article that is in a topic in an area that it interests them or relates to something else you're learning and then bring Lexi level down to what they are, what they can manage on their own.

I love that that I've first time I'm hearing about new Zeala and Lexi Level. It sounds like a great resource. And for math I saw that we share some favorites. We just interviewed Richard Russick from Beast Academy last week and yes, always recommending Right Start Math and Singapore Math. So are such.

Yeah, yeah.

Programs where kids can move along at their own rate.

Right, right. And those are nice. Yeah. And the art of problem solving is also a great for the right kids because it's. It is such a heavy reading math program. It's. It really needs.

So true.

Yeah.

It's just fantastic. So I was thinking we could dive a little bit into the test. You've chosen the Maps Growth. I know you mentioned the test staying up to date as being really important and so I'm curious why you chose this test and if you could tell us a little bit more about how it works and why it's your favorite.

Okay, sure. Map Growth is an assessment. It's put out by a non profit out of Portland, Oregon. NWEA they are really great people. I love working with them. And they, the way that map growth works is that it's a computer adaptive test. And so the first time kids test with us, their first couple questions are going to be a little bit easy for their grade level and then if they get the first couple of questions right, then the questions will get harder and then if they get a question wrong, it'll get easier and it kind of goes up and down like that. And the goal is to find the edge of what the kids can do and it can adapt across grade level whether they're working above or below grade level. And it can also give kids it well it within each topic there are subtopics and the test will adjust within those. So if you have a kid who is really great at figuring out how to set up math problems and they know how to solve them, but they struggle with computation, the test will, it'll, it'll find that and it'll give them easier questions in the computation area and more challenging ones in the area that is testing whether or not they know how to the procedure for solving the problem. And so it gives you lots of great data and it's only 45 questions a test and, and it's really rigorously maintained by NWA so they, they're always adding new questions, they're always looking for things to make sure that everything's valid and the new and they're always improving the norms. So right now we are using 2020 norms which is pre pandemic but it's still, it's quite a lot better than a 2002 or a 1970 norm.

That's extraordinary. I mean just building adaptive technology and education is so hard. It seems simple if you're on the outside, but even if you look at the best math apps like Beast Academy, it's very difficult to be able to change problems based on how the child is responding. So that's really exciting and I'm curious, you know, let's say my child, just as an arbitrary example, is great at abstract thinking but terrible at computation. Is there any way that after this test I can be directed towards problems they should focus on or how do I take the information and apply it to what they're studying or does it do it itself?

Well, the easiest thing to do well there are is to NWA has it works with Khan Academy. And so you can either there's a website you can go to if you Google Khan Academy mappers that will let you just put in input your child's map scores and it will generate a custom learning path for them. Alternatively, if you especially this was designed for schools because it's what's easy to do for one child can be really overwhelming. For 20 or 30 we have an auto more automated version of that and it has a few more bells and whistles called MAP Accelerator. But that will automatically import your child's MAP scores into a system that uses Khan Academy's materials to give your kid, your child a custom learning path. A custom learning experience.

How incredible. I mean I see a real opportunity for other education entrepreneurs to sync up their resources with this wonderful test. I'm curious also does the test. Can the test for example diagnose if a child has dyscalculia or is on the you know, is profoundly gifted or would parents have to kind of take another step to get a diagnosis for a learning difference?

It's not diagnostic in that sense. It's. It could maybe give you some data to bring to a doctor to explain why it is that you think there might be a diagnosis. But anytime you see a kid who if your child is consistently much, much weaker in computation than in other math areas that that might be a sign that they have that there's something that you could do. Another thing mat growth. These tests are totally untimed. And if you find that your child scores much, much higher on untimed tests than on tests where they need to finish in a specific time zone time limit. That's another thing that can be a signal that perhaps you want to talk about that with your pediatrician or my psychologist or something to see if there's. If there is a learning difference or a disability that requires accommodation.

Maybe could you share with us the I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, there are four types of tests and if I is referenced or can you just take us through the different so we understand.

Sure. Well, there's really more than four but for if you're for third grade and up we have reading which is a reading comprehension test. Math which is it's math and it. It stretches the 2 to 5 test.

Can.

Test kindergarten through about 6th grade math skills. And then the 6 plus math test stretches is for kids who are either are learning 6th grade math or higher. So but it can stretch down to second grade from second grade up to trig. Then we also offer science which is the science test is based on the gold standard. The. I apologize, I should. Yes, there are new science standards and it's based on the new science standards. The rest of our tests are common core based so they are based on what kids are being taught in school right now. And then we have language usage, which is. It assesses grammar and mechanics and some writing skills. But it's all multiple choice. So it's not nobody, it's not the. It doesn't actually assess how well your child can write a paragraph.

Got it. And then just in terms of types of tests that are offered overall, I know you're offering a very specific kind of test which is helping parents evaluate how they are doing relative to their peers. And another type of test you talked about is you can get a diagnosis. Where do you recommend parents go to get diagnostic tests to see if their child is, for example, dyslexic or on the spectrum? Do you have any resources that you could recommend to us for that?

For that, I would say that you start with your pediatrician.

Fantastic. Really great. And how would your test differ from, for example, the Iowa assessments? That's another test I hear.

Yes, the Iowa test is the. It's a fixed test. So what that means is that every student. Our test is adaptive. If you have two, two third graders taking the MAP test, they're probably not going to get any of the same questions. The Iowa is different. That two third graders are going to get all the same questions. And what that means in order to make that older style fixed test work, they have to include a full range of questions and every kid has to answer that full range. So high achievers are going to answer a lot of questions that are very easy and lower achievers are going to have to struggle through a test where quite a few of the questions are just way too hard. But the Iowa, if you were looking for a fixed test, because some people like those, that is the one I'd recommend. It's the most up to date fixed tests that homeschoolers can access right now.

Fantastic. And then I guess the two other tests that I heard of are formative and summative. Could you tell us what those are?

Sure. The MAP growth test can be used as a formative test.

What?

A formative test is a test that lets you. That gives you information that. To inform what you teach next. And a summative test is something that you take that a student takes at the end of a course or a year that basically tries to assess what they've learned altogether. So it's sort of. And, and they're all. There are different kinds of formative and summative tests. They can be tied to your curriculum or they can be, you know, based more on standards or norm referenced. So yeah, the curriculum is what exists specifically what you're teaching. And then standards would be what our government says kids should learn at different grades. And then norm reference tests are tests that are based, where the content is based on what publishing companies have seen over the years that students know.

Interesting. And so where does the Maps Growth test fall in all of that?

It is a norm referenced, it is a norm reference test, but it is also. Does match standards. So you can, you can go through and see how all the questions relate to the Common Core and you can correlate your child's. We give everyone learning statements that show what their kids know and what they're ready to learn. And those are all related to standards from the Common Core.

So helpful. So I'll switch from the practical to a hot controversial topic. What do you think of the Common Core? What are the strengths, shortcomings?

Generally my feeling is, okay, I have been homeschooling long enough that I remember when we didn't like what, what public schools taught before the Common Core. So I, I don't, I don't have strong feelings about it one way or the other. I think, I think it's a gift that homeschoolers don't have to. We have the independence of choosing programs that work for our kids. And while especially as kids kind of get older, you know, in middle school and high school, I think it's useful for homeschoolers to know how their kids do on tests that are related to the Common, that use that Common Core kind of language. Because when they go out into the world or when they apply to college and when they go out into the world, they're going to have to, that's the language that their peers are going to know. So it's useful to be, to know where your kids stand in relation to all that stuff. But I, what something I like about the MAP test is that because it's norm referenced, the questions, the, the questions are leveled based on how kids actually do. And so one of the, one of the criticisms of the Common Core a lot of the time is that it is asking kids to do things that are age inappropriate. But if they can't, you know that if your child is, you know, working at a normal level for a second grader and normal second graders can't do something that's in the Common Core, then they aren't going to be asked to do a lot of that on the MAP test.

Okay, fantastic. And how often do you recommend that students take these tests? Is it an annual Thing.

Kids can test with us as often as three times a year.

Okay.

Yeah, we have three test seasons. We have fall, winter and spring. We're in the winter test session now. And what I recommend is that families, especially homeschooling, it's. Homeschooling is all about figuring out what works for you. There are families that love having that feedback three times a year. And there are families that don't need, don't feel they need it that often. And so they'll do either. Sometimes they like fall and spring because it's sort of the spring. The fall number lets them know, okay, this is how we're where we're coming in, where we're starting out. And then the fall gives them some feedback about, okay, so how did we do? I'm sorry, the spring number gives us. So yeah, but then, yeah, we still absolutely have people who just test once a year or even every other year. So yeah, we, it's such a valuable resource.

I mean we modulo. We also have a nonprofit called masteryhour.org and we do free tutoring for kids in the public schools. And I think it would just be so useful for us to administer this test three times a year to see how we're doing with our tutoring. This is so great. So I guess curious to know just about the mindset of taking a test. I know that there are some families who are really excited to learn how their kids are doing. I remember really enjoying these types of tests when I was a kid. But I know that there are other families who are concerned about their children taking tests at all. And I think it seems to be. I'd love to hear your thoughts because you've worked with a lot more of these families than me, that there is maybe a sense that this is going to put their kid in kind of a performance mindset. Like think, oh, I'm not good at this or I'm really good at that, as opposed to focusing on the work that somehow it might be kind of counter growth mindset. I was curious kind of first of all, what concerns you hear about from parents about taking tests and any advice you'd give to parents about psychologically how to prepare your child for taking this test, what to say about the reason they're taking the test and just looking at the outcomes, if you know what I mean.

Yes, probably by the time parents come to us, they have decided to test. So we don't. I don't hear from the people who absolutely don't want to, but we definitely. What I recommend is that you look at testing is just a kind of a snapshot.

And.

Where we see the kids who struggle the most with map testing are perfectionists. Because the way that the adaptive test works is that it adjusts to the level where kids are getting half right and half wrong. And especially for bright kids who are used to getting things, getting everything right, the first time they do that, it can be a shock. And so what I recommend is that they think of it as basically, you're getting a sneak peek at the things you might learn later.

I love that.

And also to really embrace the fact that we don't all. We all have things we don't know how to do and that it's fine. Because I think as a parent of a perfectionist, I think the sooner that kids can learn that the world doesn't end if you get something wrong, that it's fine that, that you know, you get a question wrong and you know your mom still loves you and the sun comes up in the morning and you're still the same wonderful person you are. You, you were before, and the test can't change you. And I, I think that's a really valuable thing for kids, perfectionists to learn, to learn that they don't. That failure isn't. Doesn't have to be the end of the world that they can. It can be just something that they learn from. And I also think one of the things, I think I, I talked. I do talk to parents who are upset that their kids are getting things wrong. And I, I really feel like the, the sooner kids can learn that, the sooner kids can learn that it's okay to get a question wrong when you know that you're, you're eight years old and nobody expects you to know everything and, you know, just to breathe and gas and move on and.

Yeah. And we're lucky what you don't know so that we can teach you more and help you get smarter.

Right, right.

And.

And yes, exactly. And that it's not. Your value is not defined by your test score. It's. We want to help everybody. Everybody. Assessment is a great way to find out what kids know so that we know what to teach them and we can help. Help everybody kind of grow at their own rate and get the resources that they need. But it's not a measurement of how good you are in any sense. It's just. Yeah, it's. It's like height. Some people are tall, some people are short. They're all people and they all matter.

Yes. And I mean, you and I are both Entrepreneurs. And I find that when I have very clear metrics for my business and I know where I'm failing and I know where I'm succeeding at, my business does a lot better. But in the beginning, it was actually really hard for me to look at those because I'm used to being a success and getting all A's and I don't like to see you B minus, but you, you get used to it after a while. And I think, you know, with the right of, you know, one of the beauties of homeschooling is that you can frame evaluations that way to your kid. They're not talking to a million other kids about, oh, are you at eighth grade level? I'm at sixth grade level. You know that you can have a different context for learning and failure and success.

Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's, you know, often a low score is, it's an opportunity. I mean, here is, here is something that you are ready to learn that missed it when we're just going to get in there and you're gonna, you know, this is something, it's just, it's, it's a, it's a new, cool, new opportunity to learn something interesting.

And yeah, I love that. So do all parents share their score with their kids or do some choose not to tell them? What do you recommend?

I, I'm not sure. Honestly, I, I think that it varies a lot. I know that I personally, I didn't when my kids were small, but I got to a point where I realized that I had one kid who was comparing themselves to an older sibling and was just really thought they were dumb. So it was when I found that out, I, I changed and I, that is something that. It's going to vary depending on what's going on in your home. I mean, there are, you know, if you have a kid who is at the 20th percentile and really doing their best, this is, you know, what they can do that. I probably, you don't need to emphasize the 20th percentile part of that. You can talk more about how they've grown, how their scores are, you know, where they're, where they're showing improvement and, you know, the cool things they now know how to do that they didn't know how to do before. I think there's always some information you can give kids that is appropriate and helpful. It's especially anything that relates to getting them involved in goal setting because that can be just a, especially when you hit that like middle school age and kids are less excited about just Doing things for mom, perhaps or dad. The having some goal setting, going through some goal setting and talking about how, you know, what they see themselves doing as an adult and how what they're learning now is putting them on the path to that can be really helpful.

This exam just sounds so amazing. I'm curious how many public schools are using it and what are the challenges of getting it? I mean, I know you focus on the homeschoolers, but I know, for example, in New York State, this is my, my source of reference. There's just so many protests around standards, I guess, exams. Parents are really, really unhappy with what's being used. And I think we had 40% opt out recently. So I'm curious how this is moving into more public school districts.

Well, this is MAP growth is an interim test. And so it is not a replacement for the end of year testing. It is something that schools use as the school as the year's school year is going on to. So the teachers have data to help them individualize instruction.

I see. And so I guess in a way the standardized tests are more about measuring the district as a whole, whereas the MAP growth is about supporting individual children.

Yeah, it is. And for your other question, I don't have a couple years ago or a few years ago, I know that it was something like 1 in 4 students in the United States take the MAP test. And I know that here in Minnesota, 30% of students take MAP. So it is a, it's a test that is used quite a lot. Yeah, yeah. Which is why their norms are huge and very accurate.

So I mean, if you were the Secretary of Education, not that they have unlimited power, but I mean, do you think that this test could replace standardized testing? It seems like the information is much more nuanced than what we're getting from standardized tests.

I don't, I'm not, I'm. That's. That's above my pay grade. I know that NWA does is looking at. With some states of replacing. There's that one high stakes end of year test with three lower stakes tests throughout the year. And I think that that could be valuable because it's just because kids have bad days. Everybody has bad days. And so putting so much pressure on one single test seems pretty. Doesn't seem really terribly appropriate to me. But. Yeah, but whether I. Yeah, I don't need to get into the politics.

Politics. Right. So it's so wonderful, you know, I mean, I think that sometimes people see, you know, I mean, how do I, how can I be sure my kid is learning If I homeschool take this test, what are some other ways of evaluating how well your homeschooling is going that a parent can use?

Just my, my first thing that I think parents should use if they're evaluating their homeschooling is essentially what I was told when I was breastfeeding my kids back when, you know, a million years ago, which is do they seem happy and satisfied and do they feel like, does it seem like they're getting enough but not too much, you know that just, you know, your child, if they're happy and healthy in their interested and they're not overstimulated, those are all good signs to look at because homeschooling is about educating the whole child. And so you need to, you want to be, you know, are they getting enough time with friends? Are they getting. Are you hitting you. Are you hitting that balance with activity versus book work? There's. There are just a lot of different things that you want to kind of keep in balance with your. When you're working with your kids. So those are the kinds of things that I would look for. I mean and also like if you want to know, say if they're understanding things, a conversation is a great way to. One of the luxuries we have as homeschoolers is that we have a really excellent teacher to student ratio. So you can sit down and talk to your kid about, you know, explain this to me or so what did you think of the chat, that chapter that you just finished? Or there are just a lot of different ways that just talking to them is, is super powerful and if you maintain that connection, it makes the teen years a thousand times easier.

So yeah, there you go. I feel like homeschooling has a kind of built in evaluation system in contrast to a school where a teacher might be teaching 30 kids and it's really difficult to see who's where when with your, your child. You're kind of, you're teaching them and they're responding. So you're constantly seeing how they're doing and able to adapt.

Right. Although you also. There is of the reason I like, I think that assessments are important is that sometimes you can inadvertently be providing more support than you realize.

So true. That is. Yeah.

To sometimes be. Just check to see what can, what can they do if you're not sitting there with them or if you're not rereading the question to them or that kind of thing.

Yeah. Really trust in your child. Give them time to figure it out on their own to be frustrated even if It's a couple days. Yes. It's hard not to jump in and help. But I think when you don't jump in, you do send them a strong message that they are capable of doing it themselves, which is good.

Yes, yes, that's true.

So there has been a lot of controversy around reading. I think, I think there was a recent Twitter thread that you're posting. So I guess one of the things about reading is there's a lot of difference of opinion about when children should learn to read. And in school children are more or less expected to learn to read by the same age. And I've heard things, you know, I've heard Peter Gray, who wrote Free to Learn, say that it's not even developmentally appropriate for some kids to learn until they're 10. Whereas, you know, some kids, if you don't teach them, they'll learn themselves. You know, I have another friend who runs the wild reading program and she said that's not true. You know, not every kid, some kids will teach themselves to read, but other kids will absolutely not teach themselves how to read. So how do you know when your child is ready to learn how to read? Should you be concerned if your child can't read by a certain age? I'd love to hear your views on that.

Well, what I have three kids and one was a fairly early reader and one was a later reader and one was desperate to read and, and really pushed to yet my daughter, my youngest.

Was.

Reading at 4, which was crazy. But her old or my middle kid is, was just, I think had decided that. Their brother had claimed reading and you know, so that just hands off weren't and, and probably also some developmental stuff. But I've, I've had an 8 year old who doesn't read and it's, it's terrifying. And you get a ton of judgment, especially from parents, from anyone who out from outside the homeschool community. Within the homeschool community, there's usually more appreciation for the fact that there's a variety of reasons kids might not be reading. And well, the last thing that any parent whose kid isn't reading needs is judgment. I mean, because I could tell parents not to worry about their kids not reading at, you know, 7, 8, 9. They're not, they're going to work. It's, it's are. There's so much social pressure. I think, I mean the obvious way to know that your child is ready to learn to know that there is, is that they ask, they'll be asking to read, they'll be you know, trying to, you know, pick out words that are written when you go out shopping. And I do think. I used to think that my oldest taught himself, and now I. Looking back, we were playing a ton of phonics games. We were. We had a. We were reading lots of books together. There were all kinds of things we were doing that I didn't count as reading instruction. But we're certainly laying a framework, and I think so I think that expecting kids to learn to read if they're not getting that framework, if you're not, you know, giving them some kind of hint about what. How on earth it is that our phonetic language works is. I mean, I'm sure there are kids who can do it, but it. You know, why on earth would you. Why would you make them do that when you could so easily, you know, give them a few clues? So generally, I am in favor of giving kids reading instruction when. If they're, you know, probably starting around as soon as they start asking, and then if they aren't asking, probably around six or seven at least, you know, start introducing things and see how it goes. And I think if you. If your kid is dyslexic, well, we all know that phonics are a great. Are what they need. So certainly you aren't going to harm anybody by teaching them phonics. But I also think that if your gut tells you that something's not right, you should absolutely get it assessed that there's. There can be some pressure sometimes for, you know, you'd be the cool. You know, the cool on schooling mom and just, you know, my kid's gonna learn to read when they're 12, and I'll be fine with it. But if you're not, don't. Don't let that pressure keep you from getting an assessment.

If you.

If your gut is telling you that something's not right, because.

It might get.

You access to resources that'll really help your kid.

Yeah. Wonderful. So if you have a challenge and you would say the. The first stop is the pediatrician.

Yeah, yeah. And also, frankly, most homeschool, if you are in a. There are a lot of different Facebook groups and different. Different ways of joining the homeschool community and that we have. There are a lot of learning disabilities in the homeschool community. So if you are looking for resources, especially your local homeschool community is going to. You're going to have people who can tell you go to this place, don't go to that place.

Yeah, exactly. So whenever you can, try not to act out of fear. But if your gut tells you something is wrong, it's always better to have more information. And there's a lot great information out there that can help you better support your child's learning. And the good thing as a homeschool is you don't have to go through a bunch of bureaucracy to get them the support.

Exactly. Yes. The benefit of homeschooling is that you don't have to fight anybody for it. Yeah.

So great. So I was just curious to know a little bit more about your origin story. I just think it is so extraordinary. I mean, homeschool parents are incredible. The level of organization you need to have to develop curriculum, help your kids learn. I mean, it's really enriching, but it's. You really get good at executive functioning skills too. And I'm just wondering, you know, I mean, you got inspired to start this business. Obviously, there's a big need for it, I think. I mean, it's really clear to me that you stand out as the most popular service for homeschoolers who want to get evaluated. And I'm wondering, like, what were the first two years? Like, what were the challenges? Did you just immediately get a flood of parents wanting to. To buy your product, or did it take a long time to build a base? What, how, and how long have you been at it? We've been.

At least. I started in. I signed my contract with NWA in April of 2016. So I started testing that coming fall. And it did take a while to get people to. To grow a base, because even in a. In a state where everybody has to test, people have kind of have their ideas of which what tests are available. And so I was offering something that, while it was used a ton in public schools, was totally new to homeschoolers. So that was a big challenge was to, you know, kind of introduce this new test and tell them that it's not that new and it's not that different. And at the same time, I had to reach out to. Because we were initially focusing on people who test because they legally were required to. We were reaching out to the government organizations that accept test results to make sure that they knew that this is a valid option, that it meets their requirements. So that was a lot of. There was a lot of. In addition to marketing was doing all of that outreach. So, yeah, took. I tested 400 kids our first year, and then I think it was right around a thousand the second year.

And.

We'Ve changed how. I'm thinking. I'm talking. Speaking about school years and now we've switched over to doing. We switched over to being open year round and calculating based on the calendar year and this calendar year we should be will Tested right around 15,000 kids. Incredible. Yeah, it's been an enormous growth and it's been really fascinating for me because I, you know, I graduated from, I got grad school, I worked for the Navy as a civilian for about three years and then my kids were born and I stayed home with them. So I have. And then, you know, 15.

Wow.

Yeah. About 15 years later I started this business and I coming into it with no personal corporate experience. So that's been, yeah, it's that there's just been a tremendous amount to learn. But yeah, we have. I've been lucky that we've been able to bring on some really great people and I was, I'm so thrilled that we were able to partner with NWA they really. Companies, they're non profit. But a lot of times people feel like test publishers are, you know, they kind of think of them as the bad guys. Yeah. But they're. Everybody I have met at NWA is legitimately thinking about school kids, about children. They are looking to improve education for kids. And that's, it's a. So it's. I like working with them. I feel like their, their corporate heart is in the right place. Which is so. Which is why they were willing to work with me because it's. Yeah. Deciding to jump in with resonate.

You're the same. You really care. I can tell you really care a lot about children and families as well. Yes. So how about the name? What, what inspired the Homeschool boss name?

It's our second name. Our first name was Affordable Homeschool Testing Services llc.

The long one. Yes.

Which is. Yeah, it's very long. And it's. I basically I was just looking to be at the top of tests or testing service lists and it worked for that. But yeah, it's too long. It's a terrible thing to have to say as you answer your phone. So I started and also I had issues with people getting us mixed up with other testing services because our names were all too similar. So I was looking for something that was distinctive and not too long and had the homeschool name in it. And so that's, that's how we, and, and I, and I could get the dot com.

Yeah, I like, I feel like to me it connotes I'm taking the power back in my child's education. I'm learning what I need to learn. I'm going to be able to apply it and thrive. So I don't know if this is confidential or not, but I mean there's so. People are so. There's so much stigma around homeschooling, so many prejudices ranging from all homeschoolers are weird and antisocials and no homeschoolers know how to read. And you know, honestly, there are some studies around homeschooling performance, but not a lot for sure. I'm curious if. Can you share anything about what you're observing in terms of how homeschoolers are performing on these tests?

Well, I don't know that we have because our tests are adaptive and you don't have to. Something that if you're working with fixed tests a lot of the time gifted or especially profoundly gifted kids, they hit the ceiling on their grade level test and so their parents end up just picking some random grade above where they are and makes the, the results very hard to interpret. And so for that community, an adaptive test that. Where you sign your third. If you have a third grader who is profoundly gifted, you sign them up as a third grader and then the test does the adjustment for you. That's an attractive option. So we test a lot of very gifted kids and our results show that. I, I don't, I don't know that we have.

It's kind of hard statistically overall. Yeah.

Yeah.

Would be interesting. We should partner.

I wouldn't draw any conclusions.

Yeah. There's so many different styles of homeschooling too. And I imagine some parent who would go to the length to get their kid tested is someone who cares a lot. Although sometimes it's a requirement too. So.

Yeah. Yeah. But I don't, I. There's a stigma about unschooling sometimes for some people. Some people. Some people. Really. Yeah. Feel like some people believe that unschooling couldn't possibly work. But. But I don't. To the extent that I have. I don't take, I don't poll everybody, but when I have conversations, it doesn't seem to me that that's. Unschoolers do fine. Yeah. Yeah.

That is, I think for people who don't know what unschooling is, there's a lot of variation within it, but essentially it's a philosophy where learning is almost completely student led. And so I think that with little to no parent interference. Although I think on some, for some it's basically just secular homeschooling. You know, it's not. It doesn't. It has a big range. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, it's. Yes, it is hard to define. My personal favorite definition is educating your kid as if. As if school didn't exist. So you. You still teach them things. You're just not worried about what a third grader is supposed to be learning.

You're not copying kind of what school is.

Right. It's. But, yeah, it varies tremendously, and there could be huge arguments about it. So. Yeah.

Yeah. But I really love how you talked about how certain students really direct their learning very strongly, especially certain students who are exhibiting giftedness. And I think that that's. That can show how unschooling might work better for some children than others. If a student is really excited to learn how to read and to do different activities and learn math, there's not a big reason that you should say, no, you should do this. Learn this instead, or do things this way.

Right, Right. Yeah. Or if you have a kid who is naturally. Who is mathematically gifted, and because of that, they're way ahead and that, you know, then why can't they use that free time to learn a whole lot about, say, rabbits? You know, I mean, absolutely. There's. Right.

There's such a huge diversity when it comes to the way children learn. And even if they don't exhibit signs of being strong at math early on doesn't mean that they're not a mathematical thinker. If they're really passionate about visual arts, that's something that we don't really celebrate that much in our school. School system. And it's really great to give them the freedom to pursue that and the time to kind of figure out where their interests lie. Anyway, you have been so generous with your time today. I know you're running a big business, so really appreciate you taking the time. Is there anything else that you'd like to share with families about the homeschool boss or evaluation or anything important we didn't touch upon today?

I guess probably the main thing I'd say is just reiterating that. Listen to your gut, and that if you feel like your kid needs more, then look into that and get them assessed. And if you feel like you need a break, that's okay, too. One of the gifts of homeschooling is that we set the pace. So. So it's okay to take a little time now, and often that means that you'll have an easier time. They'll have an easier time learning whatever it is you're trying to cover later.

So. So great. And how can parents sign up for your tests?

It's. We we try to make it very easy. If you go to Homeschool Boss, our website, homeschoolboss.com just click on book now and it'll take you through the process. We work with homeschooled students and we also micro schools, homeschool pods, small private.

Schools.

Some tutoring organizations, and. But we do require that students are in the United States at testing time. So unfortunately, we can't help families that are abroad.

Good to know. Well, I am just so happy to meet you, Ellen, and excited for collaborations that are to come. If you're interested in learning more about your child's strengths and weaknesses, go to homeschoolboss.com and sign up for an assessment. You can take it as many as three times a year, and it's an adaptive test. It's really about just honing in on your child's individual strengths, not comparing them. And. And you can sync up with Khan Academy even to. To help shape their curriculum. Well, I just so appreciate everything you're doing for kids and taking this time with us today. So thank you so much, Ellen.

Thank you. It's been nice chatting.

Wonderful. Have a great rest of your day.