Rachel Thomas Unpacks Homeschooling: A Deep Dive into Screen Time, Apps, and Data Ethics

Hi everyone.

I'm Manisha and this is Teach youh Kids. We are a show where we help parents learn how to curate their children's education as a supplement or a placement to traditional school. And today I have with me Rachel. Rachel Thomas. Welcome, Rachel.

Oh, thank you, Manisha. Thanks for having me.

So Rachel's one of the smartest people I know and so I feel so fortunate that you're here. She is the co founder of Fast AI, which created the most popular deep learning course in the world, was selected by Forbes as one of the 20 incredible women in AI. She was founding director of the University of San Francisco center for Applied Data Ethics. She has a PhD in math from Duke and was an early engineer at Uber. And she's currently pursuing a Master's in immunology. And so I know Rachel because we have been raising a child together for three years. Actually, I exaggerate. Rachel and I have been collaborating on her wonderful child's education and have become friends in the process. So, Rachel, I guess I just want to start off with. Did you ever think in a million years that you'd be homeschooling today?

No. No, I never, never expected to be homeschooling. I actually had, I had a positive view of homeschoolers just because I know several homeschoolers with PhDs who have done very well. But I just, the time commitment seemed huge. My, my husband Jeremy and I are both pretty career focused and I had, yeah. Never, never thought that we would, would have the time to homeschool. And also I was just so unaware of kind of how many, how many online resources there are now.

Excellent. Yeah. And you've actually applied a lot of the online resources in your own homeschooling.

Yes. Yes, definitely.

So how did that process happen? What made you and your husband decide to take the leap and homeschool your daughter?

Yeah, so it was, it was the pandemic. We weren't planning on planning on doing this. So kind of going back to before the start of the pandemic, our daughter was in a full time Montessori preschool. She was four and a half. And we were both working full time. And. Yeah. And then kind of with the shutdown, we had her at home. And something I'm really glad that we did is, you know, Jeremy was like, you know, we should assume that we have no childcare for at least the next year to 18 months. Like, we really need to get into a routine of what kind of how we're going to do this. Yeah. Fortunately, we came in contact With Manisha. And our, our daughter really, really thrived in that first year at home. A key thing that we were doing is we were not trying to replicate in person school at all, which I really, really think makes a difference because I know a lot of, a lot of schools and a lot of families I think, had trouble in part because they were trying to kind of replicate an in person school at home. Yeah. So we had had a really, really great experience. Not sure how much detail I should go into at this point. Yeah. So then we, then we actually moved to Australia. We've been living in San Francisco prior to this and we, we actually considered continuing to homeschool because it was working, but we ended up just kind of being, you know, in this totally new place. We decided to put our daughter in school in order to kind of help, you know, better integrate into the community. And the, really the school we sent her to, like, it was, it was a good school. And so I feel kind of fortunate that like, it's not that we had this like terrible school experience, but it was still. Yeah, it was kind of mad for, for her. Yeah, a few issues. She, she had ended up unintentionally, kind of very, very accelerated from the year of homeschooling. So she was really advanced and the school actually really tried to work with her on this, but it just, it's really hard with a class of 20 students to accommodate kind of where each student is. And even they actually let her join a math class that was several years beyond her grade level. But even then the pace was too slow for her natural sheep. Daughter did well socially, but she, she was becoming more withdrawn, more passive, more disengaged. Yes. Then we focused issues in school, I guess about eight months, and then we kind of not connected to the school situation, but just the first omicron wave. Kids in Australia hadn't been vaccinated yet. This was prior. They were on a later schedule than the US So initially we're just going to take her out of school for three months. And then we immediately kind of saw her switch back. Like once we got her back into kind of her online and online we were doing very small group classes. So her and her best friend is also homeschooled and a tutor. And that kind of engagement you can get in that small group kind of direct attention, she just became so much more curious and engaged again. And her appetite for kind of making mistakes and taking risk increased. And so we saw a lot of really positive changes. And so we ended up not sending her back to School as we had planned.

Wow. So one of the things that I think was really interesting about the way you chose to homeschool when you first started in the pandemic is that a lot of your daughter's education was online. And I was really, you know, I mean, as you know, I'm not hiding it. When you came to me and said, I'd like her to do six or seven hours a day of online classes, I just felt like this was a horrible, horrible idea, you know, And I just. I can tell you now, you know, because, you know, I've come with you on this journey of, like, this poor child is going to be sitting in front of her computer for seven hours a day. Like, what is wrong with this family? Like, I don't know what is going on, but you know what I got? You convinced me.

Seven hours.

Well, I mean, I. So here's what happened. So I. So the truth comes out.

No.

So I. My views on screen time changed completely due to the two of you. But, you know, we. My original plan for the company was that we would have two hours of social time a week where the kids would interact, and then one hour of, you know, check ins with a teacher, see how everything was going. And we would, like, offer a curriculum stuff. And then Jeremy said to me, well, you know, we have to work, so would it be possible if you would have, you know, three or four hours a day, and then we have a class with our Spanish? You know, childcare provider also does art in the afternoon. So I felt like, okay, what. And then. And then what happened is that Jeremy kind of showed me how he was doing these classes, which is that it wasn't sitting in front of a screen. It was, you know, jumping around. And, you know, we were collaborating together to kind of get this great setup so that your daughter was able to move freely around her room. And we had a camera that followed. And so it ended up being something much more physically active than sitting in a traditional school. Yes.

Yes. So, yes. Maybe. Maybe I should back up and say what we were doing.

Yes, let's back up.

Because what I think is really what.

I try to flush out here is your. Your views on screen time, because they're quite revelatory. Yeah.

I mean, really, we can go back to. I have made a bunch of big moves kind of around the US basically ever since I turned 18. I grew up in Texas, and then I went to undergraduate in Philadelphia. I did my PhD in North Carolina. I moved back to Philadelphia. I moved to San Francisco. And so I'm very used to having close friends that I talk to by phone. And so I should say that for me, long distance friendships and long distance relationships have always felt kind of every bit as real as people that you could see in person. And then my husband and I are both computer nerds. And so we do spend a lot of time online. And my husband in particular, Jeremy has had a lot of really close collaborations that grew through open source software, often with people he had never met in person but was working closely with. And so we, and we also leave. We've never, never lived in the same state as either of our families. And so even prior to the pandemic, my daughter was really used to like, oh, we talked to the grandparents on Skype, like, and that's kind of a really important avenue for those relationships.

Yeah.

And so kind of going into when kind of with the stay at home and the, the start of the pandemic, we tried to, yeah, we were both trying to work and so we, we set it up in a very relational way, but we tried to kind of have the day of like, okay, you know, this is the hour. This is the hour where you talk to grandma on Skype. And as you said, like, this was very like, you know, my daughter was four and a half and so she was still at a point where it's like, oh, I want to play frozen and dance for grandma or you know, like act out a story with my stuffed animals. And so it was. Could be quite physical or playful or, you know, like, I'm building blocks and, you know, showing that. And we lined up so it was Grandma, her best friend, who had lived in our neighborhood. And this was, you know, San Francisco. Everyone was really, really staying home. They were doing online play dates and again, they might, you know, play music together and you know, have this element of co playing. And so. And then, yes, we had had nanny from when our daughter was little who. And she had kind of already moved on to another job prior to the pandemic. But we ended up hiring her to Skype with our daughter every day. And she would, she was fantastic. Would find, you know, art projects on Pinterest and kind of then make these art projects. We later with you, you know, ended up adding another child to that class. So yeah, so our daughter was doing a lot online. But yeah, Jeremy and I make probably less of a distinction with most people of like, oh, I, I feel like when most people hear screen time, they picture like, okay, you're just like setting your child by themselves to like passively watch the movie, you know, in this very passive, isolated environment. And that is something we really try to avoid and very, very rarely do that. We've only. I mean, that's not something that's routinely part of our lives. We have used it, like, in emergency situations. But, you know, to me, that's, you know, just drastically different than like, oh, my daughter's, like, dancing with her best friend and it just happens to be with a computer screen, you know, like, through a computer screen. Yeah, so that was, that was our view. We had been. We had been actually even a year prior to this. We had been using some apps for learning. I know that Jeremy started with. I'm not going to have the exact order, but teach your monster to read and learn with Homer. Of working on reading skills with. With our daughter. And again, though, that was something that they did relationally. Like, he. For a while actually, he would always take her out to breakfast in the morning and they would sit and be doing the app together. But it's something they're chatting about. And again, it's kind of this very, very relational thing of, of learning. And so, yes, I do think, helped us that we were both kind of open to the idea of, like, relationships that are facilitated through technology are still. They're still real. There's still relationships that. And that. And that even using apps can be relational when you're, when you're discussing it with your child or later. We ended up having tutors working with our daughter, but again, it's, you know, this is a trusted adult and it's, It's a relationship and not just kind of the child doing something on their own in isolation.

Yeah, you have, you have a really wonderful framework around screen time for parents. And we'll post a link to your vlog. But if I understand correctly, you. You kind of talk about the highest form of screen time as engaged educational time. So some. A child might be engaged educational and relational and relationship.

Three. Yeah, three aspects.

Yeah, that's. Yeah. So an example might be your child is doing an adaptive learning app with a tutor and talking through the app or with a parent. Working with them.

Yeah, or with a parent and working with like a kind of. One of these, I think about is also the difference between creation and consumption as well of like, you know, consuming media. You know, watching a TV show is what people think of, but also creation. Like my daughter loves. She's. I mean, I say coding and art are probably her two favorite subjects, and she is making really, really creative and fun programs in. In scratch and in P5Js and you know, it's like when she's building and creating something like I, yeah, I kind of put creative work also is different than just kind of consuming something that somebody else has created.

I love that distinction. And I feel like, you know, my views have evolved so much through talking to you. I mean, coming from a perspective where I just felt like kids should just be outside playing all day long and that's it. And, and then kind of seeing how really what you do in fast AI and artificial intelligence is you're really creating art. And you know, having technology is another way that supports our learning and allows children to relate in a different way and to be creat creative. And you're also so mindful about the tools you choose, which I think is a really important point for parents. Like in Reggie Amelia approach, we talk about the environment as the child's third teacher. Yeah. And I mean, from the beginning you've been so selective about the type of mic, the type of camera, the type of, you know, rug and pillows that, that she's sitting on. And that's, that's an important part of it too.

It is, yeah. We, we think a lot about ergonomics. And then also, like, I like that my daughter can really be comfortable. Like we, you know, like if she wants to do a class, like in bed surrounded with her stuffed animals, like, that's fine. Like we want her to, you know, be in an environment where she's comfortable and she currently, I don't know if you've seen her blanket.

I caught her from my bed surrounded by stuffed animals. So I can relate.

Yeah. So now she's got a blanket, blanket fort going in her room and yeah, we'll do some of her classes from inside of there, but that she is getting to be comfortable and to have some level of control over her environment too, of kind of how she wants to arrange things. And yeah, we've tried all sorts of flexible screen holder devices. So if she wants to be able to lie on the floor or really kind of customize how, how she uses her technology.

Wonderful. So why do you think. I mean, I guess it's somewhat less so after the pandemic, but why do you think parents have a lot of fear around technology? Is there misinformation out there or what do you think is, is driving this concern?

Some of it is, I, I think just overly grouping together. So as I mentioned before, I do think a lot of parents just, you know, think of, yeah, like your kids watching a movie by themselves and that's it and that kind of, they associate all. I don't even like the phrase screen time because I just feel like it's.

Too, too so generic.

Yeah, it's so, yeah, it's so overly broad as to be meaningless to me. But I think that a lot of parents, anything related to screen time, they just think, oh, your child's passively watching. Yeah, watching TV by themselves. And some of that I think has evolved from like, you know, I think many parents, like, you know, if they're flying on an airplane, like that's what they're going to do. It's a stressful situation, you know, that's fine. But I think because they were used to kind of only using technology as like a last resort, maybe hadn't seen some of the kind of the more positive aspects. And then I think also there's now another, a bit of a blurring going along too with. And I think this is more relevant to older children but just concerns about social media and again kind of just blurring that into screen time. And so they hear screen time and they think, oh, this is just a kid like reading Instagram or something as well as. Sorry. Third, third aspect I just thought of is apps have improved so much in recent years. Like I was really like some of the stuff like Dragonbox, Algebra and Slice Fractions, I'll talk about a lot. They are beautiful and they are engaging and they so thoughtfully designed. These are two different math apps. One's focused on algebra and I'm like this neat Dragon box algebra. This is a superior way to introduce kids to algebra than anything I had seen previously. But I wasn't aware that stuff like that existed. And so I also think that people have just have experience with kind of basically maybe putting a multiple choice exam on a computer.

I like what is it Fortnite or am I saying this wrong? The video game. I was not allowed to play video games as a child, so I'm a little out of that world. But yeah, yeah, I think that people do think about that and a child's eyes kind of glazing over and there's a lot of guilt like oh, I'm using this for child care kind of thing. But I think that you do make a good point that there are some that, that really allow for more creativity as opposed to, I don't know, cheap dopamine addiction.

Like they're really, you know, and that's like a real concern about cheap dopamine addiction. But again, that really varies. I feel like based on the app or game you're using and how you're using it. And so it does it also, it takes time to sort through all this and see what the different games are and to figure out. And it is also. It's like an ongoing conversation and discussion. But yeah, I do think that, yeah, these discussions about screen time are often kind of just overly broad and often I feel like overly focused on like the worst, the worst incarnations of screen time.

Sure. And actually Jeremy and I made a list of our 50 favorite apps, so I'll drop that in the notes as well. So it can take a while to sort through everything.

The one other thing that I do try to think about a lot too is, you know, sometimes you kind of mentioned the argument of people thinking like, oh, the child should be outside instead of on the screen or something. And I agree. Children should get time outside. My daughter gets time outside. That's important to me. But I try to think of it as more kind of positively of like, okay, how much is the time I want my daughter outside? How much time do we want her playing sports? I also, I love that like for her to have time where she's just reading a book, I think is. That's super valuable to get lost in a book. But more think about, like, is my, is my daughter kind of getting these other things I want and you know, am I scheduling those in as opposed to. I think it can be overly reductive to see it as this, like, exclusive. Like, okay, either your child's outside or they're on a screen. Whereas it's like, well, I feel like we worked both into our, into our schedule regularly.

Do you ever feel like you have to pull her away from the screen or.

I mean, I should also give this background. As a kid, I loved to read. And if someone gave me the choice, like, Rachel, do you want to go play outside or read? Who'd say I want to read? And Jeremy was a similar way about computers. It was like, no, I'd rather be coding than go outside. And so my daughter does have some of those tendencies. If we're like, oh, let's go for a walk now. And she could do. She'll be like, but I have a blog in my program. Like, I need to keep this debugging or, or if she's so into warrior cats right now, if she's in the middle of a book, you know, it's just like, she's like, oh, but it's an exciting part. These books are just like non stop cliffhangers. It's all exciting parts.

Yes.

Yeah, it's so recognizing. And, you know, it helps that we have her. You know, she plays tennis twice a week. She does trampoline lessons weekly. Like, she does have weekly, you know, regular activities. And then we're also getting her outside for walks and for play dates and then in the summer, swimming, I guess. Also kind of wanting to, like, honor. Honor her inclinations as well, though, of, like, okay to. It's also okay to, like, indoor activities as long as you're. Yeah. Kind of getting some of. Some of.

That's so. That's so great. I mean, I think even when you were talking about it, it's. She doesn't want to leave because she's engaged in doing something. She's discovering an important part of the book she's creating. She's debugging her app. It's not that she just is kind of just can't even function or be pulled away from this intoxicating dinging sound.

Yes. Yes.

Oh, wonderful. So, yeah. So maybe.

Yeah.

Could you just give us more of a flavor of what this looks like in practice? Some people might be wondering about your homeschooling. I mean, keeping in mind that the beauty of homeschooling is that you can curate it for your individual child, but maybe take us through a day in her life or a week in her life.

Yeah, yeah. So this.

You say.

What should say? So we started when she was four and a half. She's eight now, so this is changed. But she does. She does a mix of online classes and now from a few different sites and also a few different sizes, you know, this model of her best friend, also homeschools. And so, you know, there are a number of classes that we do with you, Manisha, you know, where it's her. Her friend and a tutor. And that's. That's. I think it's such a great dynamic to kind of have you have another child or two there, but also to be kind of getting a lot of, you know, to really be able to engage going along with that. I say my daughter is very, very talkative and a misconception or not misconception. I know, you know, every child is different, but I've sometimes heard parents say, like, oh, you know, homeschooling wouldn't work for my child because they're too social. Whereas I actually feel like my daughter to talk more with the approach we're using than she did in the class of 20 students, that she kind of has so many kind of like, smaller group interactions where she is kind of getting to talk more and be more conversational and more engaged.

I considered her to be one of my best friends. So there you go. But it's true, it's true.

It's hard for.

I mean I was one of those talkers. I just wanted to raise my hand all the time and I had to be budgeted and class for how much I was allowed to talk.

Yeah, yeah. And that's also something where I think online, online classes and online tutors have been so helpful in that. Like, I mean I, I love talking with my daughter. She's. She's thought she's just, she's so creative and funny at this point. She's really creative. But it is like a, as a parent is helpful to have other, other adults in her life that she can talk to and other kids. Like, I mean, she's also at a point where she has some friends that she does virtual play dates with and they can, I mean they can talk for hours, you know, and they'll be like, you know, switching between like building Legos and talking and then maybe they'll play an interactive game, you know. But it's, it's, it's very, can be very conversational. But sorry, back. Back to your question about kind of average day. So we really varies. She might have kind of, it's slightly more now a few hours of class. So maybe, maybe she has two or three hours of class in the morning. And what those classes are varies from day to day. And then yeah, some, some free time and we might go for a walk or read or she can play. She also, she loves that. She loves origami. She wants to find time to, to do origami kind of every day, another hour or two of classes in the afternoon and then often an extracurricular kind of in person at 3pm and then some days we do, we do play dates with other, other families in our area. But I like that, Yeah, I like that we have flexibility. We're kind of frequently kind of recalibrating both what online classes she takes and you know, like we can be very responsive to her interest, which I like. And so I mentioned, you know, she likes art and coding. And so like we both basically are kind of treating those as core subjects now. And of course, you know, math and English, you know, always have as core as well. She also, she likes astronomy. She's doing a biochemistry literacy for kids. A lot of these classes though are just like the biochemistry or astronomy, you know, that's just once a week. And so you can kind of fit, fit a lot of stuff. In that way.

Wonderful. It's so great. I mean, there's just so much diversity to her classes, and it's wonderful that she can change and start something new as she gets some subjects she's been studying for years and others it might just be for a few months. And that's really great.

Yeah. I'll say one other thing that kind of came up earlier, but something I like about homeschooling is that it also, it does give us blocks of time to be flexible about. And, you know, in hindsight, so much of school, they. They're asking kids to switch their attention kind of constantly. You know, it's like, do this activity for 20 minutes. Okay. And now you have to stop and do this other thing for 30 minutes and not. Not giving kids the option. And I, And I realize it's going to be feasible with a whole class of students, but to, like, if you're really absorbed in something, you might want to spend two or three hours doing that. And that's, you know, that's a. That's something like adults really seek out, you know, the idea of flow or to be able to kind of really concentrate and get in the flow on something. And I do like that with my daughter's schedule, we have enough flexibility. Like, we do have, you know, some online classes scheduled, but we also have these blocks of time where if she really gets into something, we're like, just keep going with it. You know, that's. That's great.

Completely. And just underlying, I think a lot of what you said is that she has been able to move forward at her own pace. And, you know, and we found that accident of that when she moved. Moved forward with a tutor in math and an app during the pandemic, she moved forward through the entire K through eighth grade curriculum in six months.

Yeah.

Oops. And then, you know, when she went to more of a traditional but, you know, very advanced school, she was. Got bored very quickly, not being able to move forward at her own pace and just allowing that freedom. You know, I remember when she started really knowing how to read very well. One time I came on and, you know, you said, well, she's really enjoying this novel, so she's just going to read her novel today. And that was great. And I went off and did my thing or, you know, another day. Oh, you know, she really needs to get outside, so we're not going to do class today. And just having that flexibility to respond to her energy levels and her engagement is just so great. I mean, it seems normal, you know, why shouldn't everyone be able to learn that way?

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for bringing that up. Yeah. And that's something we still do. It's like, you know, we have stuff scheduled that we mostly stick to, but then we also. Yeah. Like, if she's really into something or needs something else, we are flexible about, like, oh, you know, we will cancel this so she can. Yeah. Kind of keep going with what she's doing. Yeah. Yeah, I guess. I don't know. I know I kind of glossed over this maybe in my story. But yeah, she. Yeah. So when she was doing modulo during that first year of the pandemic. Yeah. She was working on a math app an hour a day. And Jeremy and I really didn't have any expectations for where she would end up with that. It was just kind of like, okay, this is something she's doing. And this was in a small group just with. I remember if it was the three other kids and a tutor very. And they could. And they could ask the tutor if they needed help. And it was just one hour a day. And we really had no goals for where she was supposed to get with that. And yeah. Then when we took her to a school year, she was five and a half at the time and they were like, you know, she's on a fifth grade level for, for math. But that was just. That was the pace she was going at.

Yeah, no rushing at all. I mean, and I, I do think one of the things that really helped is that we used a mastery based learning app that was adaptive and so it just kept moving forward at the right level and the kids could play and they would always be advancing. So there was that arc that was provided by the tool, the learning tool, which was Prodigy Game.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I really appreciate your focus on mastery based learning. And I do think that to me now seems like kind of one of the really key limitations of traditional school of just, you know, I know they try to kind of break the kids out somewhat to meet where they are, but it's just you can't. When you have 20 kids that are all going to have to get to the same place at the end of the semester, it just kind of doesn't allow the flexibility for, for really meeting the kid where they are and at the pace that they. That that child needs to go at.

Right. I mean, there's the question of curriculum. I mean, are they taking one concept and building upon it to the next? But then there's also that question of pace. And it's impossible in a group Setting, you're always going to be too fast or too slow because everybody learns at a different pace. You can't just evolve organically. So. Yeah, so that's tricky. All right, so many questions. So I guess kind of coming back to this, I mean, you integrated these great classes, and I'm wondering if, you know, when you, when you had a child and you started thinking about, you know, what are your goals for your child's education? I mean, Rachel, you're really at the forefront, you know, working in AI, you kind of have a better glimpse of the future than I do, you know. And so what are kind of some of the skills you might have thought of that. That could be important for your child as. As she grows up and lives in a rapidly changing world?

I really think most still about kind of things that are, I see as fundamental, even apart from AI. And one of that, a really core thing I feel like is just staying connected to your intrinsic curiosity and your intrinsic motivation and that, that kind of. Yeah, I don't know what skills are going to be useful 10 or 20 years from now, but I feel like if kids and adults, you know, can, can get in touch or stay in touch with kind of their intrinsic curiosity and intrinsic motivation, that's what's going to let you kind of keep. Keep learning new skills and keep kind of finding your interest, even if those are kind of new, new things that are evolving.

And, and when you say that, I mean, you live it. You offer this course in AI to many beginning adults who've never coded before and they're able to teach themselves.

Yeah, so that was kind of our vision with fast. AI was really wanting people from all different backgrounds. And I really do believe kind of any field is made stronger through diversity, and that includes kind of the diversity of background. I also really believe you're never too old to learn something. I guess maybe in some ways you're also never too young. There's such a range in that there's. It really upsets me to see kind of unnecessary gatekeeping of like, oh, only. And this is something that I was hearing a ton of@Tech 10 years ago of like, oh, you have to have done your PhD with these four advisors or else you can't do deep learning. You can't access the secret knowledge. It was such a kind of insider's club. And I really, I think that is so harmful to fields to have that sort of attitude. And so I do really value kind of being able to see people from different backgrounds and also recognizing that that's A strength that kind of being really familiar with a different background like that gives you important knowledge. I mean, in context, deep learning refers to multi layered neural networks, this family of algorithms that's responsible for kind of most advances in AI that we're seeing right now.

Oh, now I understand.

It's a family of algorithms.

Okay, a family of algorithms and the, the neural network. Yes.

Yeah. You know, the style of algorithm or programming, it's using a lot of data, often requiring GPUs, so the same, you know, processing units that are used for video games, but to. Yeah, to find patterns kind of through a lot of data.

Interesting. So what would be some of the applications of this research of deep learning?

Deep learning is what I mean most recently with things like ChatGPT. Like that's within that umbrella of kind of these large language models, but also going back to Google Photos, automatically classifying your photos so you can search for, show me my food pictures or something and it'll pull it up. Translation programs. So Skype translator, Google Translate, those are using deep learning. It's used in medical imaging to automatically identify tumors or kind of abnormalities in an mri.

Yeah. It actually kind of leads me to another question I was going to ask you is what kind of impact do you think that AI could have on education and how we educate our children? I mean, clearly a lot of students are using ChatGPT. There's companies that are coming out with these AI tutors. Have you thought about how it might transform the education system for children in particular?

Yeah, so we are, we've talked earlier about how there are apps that are much better than there was anything 10 years ago. I think adaptive learning is great. I will say though, I still think human relationships are incredibly important and will remain very important and that it's definitely helpful to have kind of better apps, but I don't, I don't really picture a scenario where that like eliminates the, the value of kind of having having a human tutor to, to discuss with or kind of having, you know, both, not just from the knowledge perspective but also the, the relationship side. And this, this is something I know you had kind of asked about in a previous discussion. That to me kind of one of the most time consuming aspects of homeschooling is the relationship side. And that is something that I don't think can be automated. So I would say like something that I spend a surprising amount of time on is contacting other parents and setting up play dates for my daughter. And that building relationships is time consuming, but that's not something that yeah, that I think can be automated.

Yeah, I thought I was going to ask you about that because, you know, I've somehow kind of built my company around your family and you mentioned to me that, that I'm honored.

It's good.

I mean, I'm honored. It's been such a great case study. But you know, when I, when you, when you told me that homeschooling had become a part time job for you, part of me felt like I was failing you, you know, because I, and I wanted to know because we have some entrepreneurs listening to the show and so that's what I was wondering. I mean, are there tools and technologies that could be built that would maybe save you time or is this just something that you are glad to be doing, that you're glad to be setting aside this time to do this part time homeschooling job?

It's, I mean, I think, I think it's worthwhile to do. I, I don't know, like, I think about something like, you know, online dating. You know, like, I mean, people have been making dating apps for like 20 years, but my understanding is dating is still really time consuming.

They're not working for me, I'll tell you that. I mean, I, Yeah, no, this is.

This is what I hear from friends that it's not like there's not, it's not like a magic shortcut that of like, okay, you know, this, this is going to pair you. And I do think they're kind of parallels with, you know, with trying to beat other families and you know, we've met a lot of families. But yeah, it does, it does take time, it does take trial and error, but it's not something I think can be automated. And I will say that I think one of the things I try to be careful about not romanticizing school like when I was in school and I went to this traditional public school through 12th grade. But I would typically have one or two best friends, but they weren't always in my class. And so I can think of entire years, maybe third grade, fifth grade, seventh, sixth grade, where my best friend wasn't in my class at school. So I'm still mostly just seeing them nights and weekends. It's not. Anyway, so I realized that being in a class doesn't guarantee that you have a best friend in that class. But I do think it is more work on the relationship side. Homeschooling of just, it's very intentional effort to try to connect with people.

People. It's a funny thing about freedom, Rachel. I mean, lately I've been traveling a lot and I have this freedom to choose whatever country I want to live in and be friends with whoever I want. And it does take a lot of time to make all those choices. And I think homeschooling is similar. It's not like you're limited to this certain group of people who you may or may not like. You have this freedom to choose who you want to spend your time with and that can be time consuming in and of itself.

Yes, yes. No, totally. I agree with that. And I think, you know, it was really helpful like through Modulo and the kids club you created that. I mean that was a small group but that actually made things easier for us, you know, and that, you know, also like the families involved had some common traits that we were working with you and had kind of similar visions. But you know, our kids did really connect, even though that was from a very, very small group.

Yes, it was. The founders of Fast AI, two machine learners at Google and two international best selling authors in tech in three different cities. The kids. It took the kids a while. I'm gonna say that at the beginning they were kind of just relating with me and not with each other and then they got going. But it's great to be able to connect with people who share your interests and values in that way, if you can. So that's also another benefit of, of, of technology.

Yes, it is. Our daughter now, like, I mean she'll sometimes, I mean it's, you know, it's fun as she gets older. Like she'll sometimes come to us if like, oh, I made this, you know, friend in this online class I'm in. You know, we, you know, connect with the teacher to get the other parents info. But then she has, she has made friends and yeah. In other, other states and other countries that way. And it, you know, it is kind of neat that you can connect. But you're right, like there can also be an overwhelming amount of choice and like actually some of the larger, like homeschooling Facebook groups, it just feels like too much, you know, of even. Okay. Even if they're good resources in here. It's just an overwhelming amount of choice and an overwhelming amount of people.

Definitely you need a matchmaker like Manisha.

Yes, yes, no, exactly.

It's my job. Four year old dates, eight year old dates. Wonderful. So, okay, I do want to talk a little bit about math because you have, have so many wonderful insights in this topic. On this topic. So you and I. Well, you did a workshop that I hosted called what Was it called there's.

No such thing as not a math person.

Thank you. There's no such thing as not a math person. And I often hear from families I could never homeschool because I'm bad at math. And I don't think that's true. Obviously you don't think that's true. Why do people seem to have such low confidence when it comes to math?

Math has often not been taught very well and it's taught in a very vertical manner. So it's like what you learned this year, you're going to need it for the next year and then you're going to need that for the next year. And so if you have a bad year, it can just totally screw you over for all the coming years. And that can be whether you have a bad teacher or even if something's going wrong in your personal life that it can be really hard to bounce back from. So I think a lot of people have had kind of understandably bad math experiences in school and then not been able to come back from that. There are also studies in the US that many, many primary school teachers do have math anxiety and they do end up transmitting that to their students. Yes, I think, I think there are a number of reasons that people. And sometimes math can be taught in a very dry way that is this kind of off putting. Yeah. So a lot of adults do kind of have. And I've seen this, you know, when I would tell people I have a math PhD. I've gotten a lot of reactions around like, oh, math. Or you know, my brain doesn't work that way. Yes. I think that's a challenge. I think a key thing to keep in mind is that you don't, you don't have to have all the answers to teach your child. And that it's, you know, it's. And this, I mean, this is true of teaching in general that it's fine to model not knowing something and the process you go about how you look something up and how you, you know, when you don't know something, like what is the process you follow to try to learn it or look it up? And I think it's super valuable for kids and for students of all ages to see that. But I think that when we approach teaching there could often be this mindset of like, it's almost scary to be asked a question you don't know the answer to right away. And you know, and I think this is kind of maybe a misunderstanding of teaching, you know, the idea that like, oh, a teacher should instantly Know all the answers, as opposed to. This is someone who models, like, how you learn or find answers. So that's one aspect. Although I also do totally support. And I mean, this is something we'll do. Like, if there's a subject that my daughter's really interested in, like, I mean, definitely, you know, hiring. Hiring a tutor in that area, if it's not something that I feel competent in, is valuable. But I've even. I've already, like, worked through some classes with my daughter. Like, I was actually taking a genetics class this summer for myself. It was geared towards adults, and she was having a blast watching the videos with me and would work on the questions, work on the questions together. And, you know, and I think there is something really valuable of, like, you know, her getting to see, like, okay, I'm learning these genetic sponsors, too.

That it.

Yeah. It can, I think, be very valuable to kind of learn alongside your child. Because, you know, one of. One of the things I would hope for my daughter is that she'll always be learning, you know, and that. And, you know, that relates maybe a bit to your question about kind of how the future's changing. Of, you know, I can't exactly predict that, but I hope that my daughter. Yeah. Will emerge as somebody who's always able to learn and can enjoy learning.

So great. And I hope this isn't too personal, but I know that at one point, perfectionism was an issue with your daughter. And we had a conversation about it and said, well, is there anyone else in the family who might be a perfectionist? And you just left on it. And you were so eager to look at yourself and think about what behavior might be you might be modeling to your daughter and start showing her how you could embrace failure and mistakes. And it immediately caused a shift in her own relationship to failure. And I just thought that was so great. I mean, just a plus parenting there.

Oh, thank you, thank you. That's still a work in progress. Actually, this genetics class I mentioned. Yeah. There are a few times where, like.

You haven't got it perfect yet.

Yeah. Doing a quiz together, I'm going to.

Be like, oh, man.

And Claire, my daughter would be like, oh, it's. It's fine. You know, it's okay. It's okay. We got something wrong, Mom.

Party time. We learned something.

Yeah. Although, I mean, you do. Yeah. So. Yeah. So perfectionism has been an issue for both of us. But really, I mean, the thing that made perfectionism kind of worse for our daughter was being in school. And so that was something that was Very obvious in hindsight, it was kind of harder to recognize as we were going through it. But I think that, that she in school was just getting a lot of like, oh, you're so smart. You're such a good girl. And was getting this kind of really positive feedback. And she wasn't really having to push herself at all because she was kind of ahead and knew the material. And so she kind of further fed into. She felt like she could get things right without trying. And so then activities like. So she had been playing the piano and doing chess since she was 5, and those are both activities where you have to make mistakes. If you can't practice piano without making mistakes. Yes, again, you kind of have to make mistakes as you're playing. And she really got to where she didn't want to do them anymore. And she even, you know, with, you know, piano can articulate like, I, I don't want to practice because I'm going to make a mistake. And that was. Yeah, that was. It was hard to see. And really, the, the thing that helped most was when we took her back out of school and, and her school, though, like, they, the principal and vice principal are like, super into Carol Dweck and growth mindset, and I mean, they'd like, flown internationally to meet with Carol Dweck. So, I mean, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't even that, like, the, that it wasn't on the radar screen for the school. But I just, I think with that setup where she was, she was ahead and she wasn't having to really think, she wasn't having to take risks, it was just really hard for her to develop or maintain a growth mindset or a mindset around mistakes being positive.

Yeah, it's hard. I mean, even if a teacher has that mentality of praising hard work, I mean, there is. If they ask the class a question and one child knows and then everyone is impressed by that child knowing, the child starts to identify, identify with being right as who they are and how they get praise and how they make friends. And then, yeah, being wrong. It's, well, who am I if I'm wrong? And how can I be loved if I'm wrong? And so that can get tricky. For sure.

No, totally, totally. Through most of my life or most of my schooling, you know, I was, I was the top student, and I was really used to that. And I, you know, in adulthood, you know, came to see, like, oh, that was actually kind of a disadvantage because I didn't learn to take enough risk. And I was also Just too focused on, on doing what others had asked of me and didn't have enough. Yeah, I feel like as an adult I had to develop more like intrinsic, like how do I pick what the interesting questions are and not just, you know, answering what an adult has told me is the question that's important to answer completely.

I mean, I remember just getting an A minus in a class in college and being just devastated sobbing in my teacher's office. It just hit me at my core. And it was really only when I started my second startup that it occurred to me that if I hit a problem area and as I was able to push past that, I would be that much further ahead than all of the competitors because I had pushed past that area where we weren't getting it right and we were failing. And you know, for example, when we were first trying to hire teachers for modular, I think we've gotten quite good at this. I was trying to hire trained teachers and it wasn't really working. And then I tried doing like actors and actresses because they were really good performers and that wasn't quite working. And then we started hiring child life specialists who are trained to work with children in hospitals. And they did a really good job because they were able to understand the developmental stages of the children and how to communicate and all that training and growth, mindset and grit and trauma and how to, you know, just nurture a child, that intrinsic motivation. And so then I started giving the actors and actresses lessons on communicating with children and pairing them with adaptive learning apps. And that's when everything started to work really well. So it's, you know, it was, but it was took a month of being, deciding, I'm gonna just focus on this one problem and get it right.

No, that also, I mean, that shows great open mindedness on your part to kind of pursue so many, so many different, different backgrounds.

I guess so. But I think it really was a shift in, you know, in me as a person, in just in deciding not to be a perfectionist anymore and, and really embrace the grit. So maybe that might be kind of a cheesy transition time to immunology about grit and dirt and how immune systems are built. But I know that, know that you're studying immunology and I mean, this pandemic has been really intense for all of us. And there is a myth that I'm just dying for you to bust, which is that if a child is exposed to lots of illnesses in a big school, that somehow makes their immune system stronger. There's so many people who have this idea. And I would like you to articulate your thoughts on such a concept. Does being exposed to sickness make our immune system stronger?

So I think this is a overgeneralization or even kind of a perversion from two areas of research. So there is evidence that getting parasitic worms is good for kind of basically like the part of the immune system that ends up causing allergies. So there are some benefits to getting parasitic worm.

All right, I'll go get some of those at the store.

Which, yeah, I know it's funny because I think a lot of people see that as like grosser than catching a virus. But actually there is way more evidence around parasitic worms than viruses. And that also let me know that healthy bacteria in our microbiome is a positive. But I think that generalizing from worms and from healthy bacteria to viruses is quite a leap or even generalizing to pathogens in general. And so, yeah, I have not seen evidence that catching a bunch of viruses is good for us. And we're also kind of on the copper side. We're seeing a lot of, I mean, I think we're at a fascinating time in immunology and virology, but in terms of, of beginning to understand some more about the long term consequences of viruses. So last year there was the paper that basically proved that Epstein Barr virus causes multiple sclerosis and this kind of very direct link, I mean, this common virus causing quite a serious illness. There's also been increasing research on the role that viruses play in neurodegenerative diseases like Alzheimer's and dementia. And so some very kind of large studies on kind of how linked viruses are to those. We're learning new links between viruses and cancer all the time. Viruses can also trigger autoimmune diseases like type 1 diabetes. So there's a lot of potential harms of kind of like long term damages from these viruses. And then there's also with immunity. I know there's questions about how long immunity to any virus even lasts. I believe it's NL63, which is one of the common cold coronaviruses. But that people can catch the like it's not even mutating, but people can catch the same variant multiple times and that. But then, you know, I mean, there are over 200 viruses that cause, quote, common colds also. And so catching one's not going to necessarily help you with the others. Yeah. And so it has been concerning to see kind of this over plush of people assuming that all illness is good or all illness makes you stronger when we know that There could be very kind of well documented harms for many illnesses.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, when I was working as a private tutor in New York City, I was very careful about washing my hands, drinking a lot of green juice, salad, all that stuff, and I almost never got sick. But when I was subbing in the public schools and the private schools often, you know, and it would often be for a couple months at a time to school. I mean, I was just sick all the time. And I know, you know, my friends who send their kids to school or daycare, they're just sick. I mean, the parents get more sick than the kids. I mean, is there something about that environment of a daycare or a school that it makes you get sick more often?

Yeah, I mean, totally. So I think, you know, and this is a topic I didn't, didn't know much about a few years ago, but recognizing just the crucial role that air quality plays in all of this. And you know, I now believe clean air is a human right. And it's something, it's, it really angers me. Like if you're a member of parliament, like they have really upgraded their, their ventilation systems and their air purifiers. But school, most school children don't have it. There are a few, like there's some kind of ultra wealthy school districts that politicians send their kids to that have, you know, like spent $40 million improving air quality. But most children do not have access to this. And I think, I mean, I think that clean air quality is, I hope it's something that we make major, major structural changes to ensure for people in the future. But just to talk about kind of a few aspects of it. So one, as we're talking about, I think far more viruses are airborne than was previously realized. And so people are catching pathogens through the air and a lot of schools are really poorly ventilated and you have kind of a lot of kids in a very small space. There's also then even a park from illness. Mold can be carried in the air allergens. And so having any sort of air purification is going to help with all of this in terms of kind of, of reducing. Yeah, reducing illnesses, reducing mold, reducing allergens. There's also the issue of the air purifiers are kind of one aspect, but also ventilation, which is kind of how much new air you're bringing in. And that's important for keeping CO2 levels down. And if you're familiar with this, the high CO2 levels are not great for our brains. And so there have Even been studies on, like, chess players. And if the CO2 level is. Is too high, they make more mistakes. And so this really impacts kind of cognitive. Cognitive function and impacts alertness. And so, again, it's important to kind of be bringing in new air to have windows open. And fortunately, many, many schools have kind of done the opposite through. I know, like, many schools in the US like, don't want to have windows open because they have safety concerns. I mean, there are even schools where, like, the windows are, like, painted. Shut up. And then there's also, with the push for energy efficiency over the past few decades, that's often looked like, though, just recirculating air and so not bringing new air in, not cleaning it. Yeah. So I think that's one huge factor that kind of impacts how often children are getting sick and how often they're exposed to illness at school.

That's really intriguing. I mean, I always thought it was just the density of people and the fact that the kids were touching the tables with all their germy hands and wiping their nose.

I'm sure the density plays out as well. Yeah. But the density is also something that.

I realized, and I think also, you know, kids don't get a lot of time to play outside, and it seems like something that a school could implement. I mean, if someone is here and they're on the PTA or wants to talk to their PTA and get air purification, that's very actionable. So, Rachel, as we start to wrap up, I do want to address something. We've talked a little bit around it, but I thought it would be good to just address it headlong. So you wrote this amazing blog, my Family's Unlikely Journey to Homeschooling, and someone posted it on Hacker News, and like many of your blogs, it went straight to the first page, and someone commented. I guess the top comment was someone saying, okay, well, that's great for the cognitive elite for two really smart parents, but how can a normal parent homeschool? It's only for people who are really smart. So I was curious how you might address that. Is homeschooling only for the cognitive elite? Do you have to be very well educated to be able to homeschool your child?

No. No. Yeah. I mean, I think many, many children could benefit from homeschooling. Yeah, I think one, I just want to acknowledge, like, I think all children have passions and interests, and, you know, and in many cases, it's not even possible for schools to kind of fully meet those or encourage those, and that homeschooling does give you this option to kind of really encourage your child's kind of particular, particular interest and customize towards them. And that with kind of, with the number of. And you know, I do want to acknowledge, like being able to afford more online classes or more online tutors definitely opens up more options. Although for, I mean, still for deeper than what you would pay for a private school that there are also so many ways to supplement kind of. They're just amazing online classes and I mean even amazing, amazing online YouTube channels, you know, teaching very scientific material, like in really, really engaging ways that they're, they're kind of. There's so many resources and actually, I guess this is probably one of those misconceptions I had, you know, four years ago about homeschooling is that I thought the parent was having to, to generate most of it thinking like, oh, if you homeschool as a parent, you would have to be teaching everything or designing all these curricula. But there are so many helpful resources out there now and also just such a diverse array of homeschoolers. You kind of get into these various Facebook groups for homeschooling. I mean, just wide variety of people and you can find some really helpful advice and yeah, different resources. So no, I don't think it's just for the cognitively elite. And I think that the benefits of kind of the getting to do more one on one more small group stuff would really be valuable for a lot.

Of children for sure. And one thing I really enjoyed during the pandemic was learning how to draw because we watched this Art for Kids Hub channel together. I'm not an expert in drawing, but I got quite good at it just, just doing it with the children. And you gave an example of learning genetics with your daughter. I think that perhaps we didn't learn all the things we wanted to learn in school. Maybe we might be concerned that we don't know how to do second grade math. So homeschooling offers an opportunity to go back and learn with your child and then now there are just so many resources to support you.

Yes. Yeah. Another example of this is chess. So I, I actually, I hated chess when I was a kid. Like, I like, I. So boring. The games take so long and so I like, I mean, I was never, I mean I learned like the basic rules. Although my daughter will point out I didn't even know that castling.

Oh my gosh. You didn't even know that?

Didn't even know about castling? Yeah. So it's kind of funny like, people assume that Jeremy and I must be into chess since our daughter is a chess player, but it's really just, we're just looking for stuff to keep.

Might be just because you're nerdy.

It's now been rebranded. It's called Dragonbox Chess. Like, this game is like such a fun way to learn chess. And it's something, it's like, okay, if this had existed like 30 years ago, I would have liked chess. It's like a really fun way to learn it. And this is something that totally my husband and I have just learned alongside our daughter that we started watching. Yeah. Watching the chess kid videos together. And I think that's so valuable for kids to see. Plus it's something like in my, my daughter's better than me. She spends more time on it than I do. But, you know, she's gotten to see her parents kind of learn a lot of this alongside her, which, yeah, I think is really valuable to see because it's really, I mean, I think that's one of the key things I want for her is just to always feel like she can pick up new things. And yeah, if there's something that she doesn't know and her parents don't know that, you know, we'll seek out the resources and that she can learn it.

So wonderful. A while back, one of our families wanted me to do private lessons with their son in person and I, and basically all we did is he wanted to do was teach me chess. That's what we did every lesson. And I do think that teaching is the final stage of mastery. And it can be great for a child to teach their parent a skill. It helps identify things that you don't know and makes you feel confident.

Teaching is how you kind of cement your knowledge. Yeah. Like my daughter. Yeah, she, she likes to give me origami lessons. And I think it's really valuable. Yeah. Also for kids to get that experience of teaching a skill they have.

And kids can figure out a lot more than we give them credit. And if we give them that space and time to get their wheels turning when they ask a question and try to think, okay, what can I pull in here to figure this out? It really helps their learning skills. I mean, I, I did, I think, you know, I did. Did a lot of high end tutoring. So I was really focusing on like, how do we get from missing one question on SAT to missing no questions or just, you know, all kinds of, you know, lasering in it. And so I've taught a lot. I mean, 2,000 kids, three countries, many, many subjects. And really now all I do is I just go show up and say, I don't know, you told me. I mean that's my, that's my teaching style now and it works really well. I just don't teach. I just, just you know, support their learning. That's it.

Yeah. No, and I wrote about this in the blog post. Like one of my kind of most valuable teaching experiences was when I was working at a coding academy for adult women where they would this spend five weeks doing a very in depth project on their own. And for the project they were often choosing software libraries that I hadn't necessarily used before. And you know, I initially had this like, oh my gosh, they're asking me questions about like a software library I've never used. But then to realize really I'm just teaching the project the skills of debugging of like, okay, if I have no idea what the answer is, these are the questions I would ask and these are the places I would search for answers. And that's kind of the most, I think one of the most valuable skills.

Yeah, that's so wonderful. It's so incredible all the ways that you've empowered your child's learning. And as we've been developing these tools together, I just want to say that, you know, when, when we discovered that tutoring helped facilitate learning, I built a non profit that does free tutoring for kids. And so many of the resources are free and a lot of the curriculum providers have grants to give resources for free to families. And so childcare is a real problem whether or not you go to school. It's a problem if you're in school or not in school. So I don't want to undervalue that. And, and there are techniques to help. That's not the subject of this episode. But in terms of the education, whether you need a tutor or a math app or whatever, there's a way to get it for free for sure.

So yeah, and I will also say I have found a lot of free groups in terms of kids getting together on a shared interest. You know, whether that's a chess club or a scratch club, programming club of. Yeah. Kind of kids being able to gather and share kind of what they're they're doing and learning. There are, yeah, they're definitely free options. Questions out there.

That's wonderful. I usually end each episode asking the guest what they're learning now that they're excited about. And you've already talked so much about what you're learning. And I think it's one of the reasons I feel such an affinity to you because you are such a lifelong learner. And anyway, this has been so interesting and I just treasure you and your family so much and really appreciate you taking the time to share your story with all of us today.

Oh yeah. Thank you. Yeah. We appreciate so much everything that you've done for, for our daughter and just kind of really being able to kind of co develop this, this new to me at least way of thinking, thinking about education and thinking about what's possible.

Awesome. Upwards and onwards.