The Homeschool Haven: Why Parents Are Choosing Brooklyn Apple Academy

Foreign. Hi everyone, this is Manisha from Teach your Kids. And I am here today with one of my favorite people in the world, Noah Apple Mayers, who is the founder of Brooklyn Apple Academy, one of the oldest and most iconic homeschool co ops in New York, New York, located in the wonderful neighborhood of Park Slope. And Noah and I have been friends for a really long time now. You've changed from a new friend to an old friend. And it's been really incredible watching this microschooling movement grow over the last seven, eight years. When we met, Brooklyn Apple Academy, I think was still in the basement of a synagogue and now you have your own space and it's really amazing. So I will let you talk more about Brooklyn Apple Academy. But I'm just so happy to have you here with me today.

Thanks for, thanks for having us. Thanks us. Thanks for having us.

Yeah, you, the group you're representing, I guess homeschooling is pretty much year round. And in that spirit you have been offering all kinds of cool camps this summer. But we are, you know, you do also follow an enrollment cycle that's similar to the school year. So can you tell us a little bit about what's in store for students this year? What is Brooklyn Apple Academy and what people should know if they're interested in joining?

We're offering seven days of programming this year for the first time. So we have things going on on the weekends now. We've got a Teen Takeover that's really popular on Sundays and a big group of teens come and cook and board games and get really silly. And on Saturdays we have a destination photography class. The kids are going to be traveling around the city and learning about photography and shooting interesting destinations through the week. We have a bunch of new programs this year. We're working with a couple new partners working with Coco nyc, which is a group that does really cool, has a really cool outdoor construction spot a couple blocks away from us in Park Slope. And every year they do a soapbox, soapbox racing camp and they finished the summer with a big soapbox race down the slope here. So we're going to be in their building lot every Monday in the mornings and then also working with Playground nyc. They have a big adventure playground on Governor's island and are really involved in self directed play and kids being kids. So we're going to be using their space every Wednesday until it gets cold. So we're reaching out to some new partners and some new organizations that do similar stuff to us. Oh, and I'm teaching a really Fun class this year that I'm really excited about. I'm teaching my first class for teens, which is an infrastructure study class. So we're going to be studying three different kinds of New York City infrastructure and meeting with elected officials and city planners and like learning about the city, but then also learning that we can impact how, what the future is and like, and how it grows.

How amazing. So a lot of people, when they think about homeschooling, they probably still imagine a parent teaching their child at home, which is very different than homeschooling looks like in reality for a lot of people. And I think before the pandemic, people had really never heard of a homeschool co op or a learning pod. And now more people are familiar with the concept. But if a parent. Can you tell us a little bit more about the structure? I remember when we were working together, parents could choose from one, two, three or four days a week. They show up at kind of similar to school hours. How does it work if you to attend Brooklyn at all?

Yeah, so yeah, parents can come one, two or three days a week, occasionally four. My own kid would come obviously, quite often. Most of our school days are 9 to 2, 45 or 9 to 3. And they choose what they want, what they're interested in. Homeschoolers and New York City have a lot of really cool options. There's a lot going on here. So we're just one of one of the many great options that homeschoolers have. And then beyond that, we're also having community events all the time leading up to the school year. We have four days of not back to school activities. A picnic, a beach day, a board game meetup. We're gonna go New York Liberty, WNBA basketball game. So we're just really bringing community together because it's really dismal not having community. I think the pandemic taught us that community is really important for our health. It's an organ of the body. So when we're missing it, we're really. I'm not at full health when I'm not like a part of a community. So that's one thing that we're offering. And for a lot of homeschoolers, it takes them a while to find community and to find their people. I've met homeschoolers who are homeschooling for a couple years before they found out about Brooklyn Apple or the New York homeschoolers associations and stuff like that. So it can take people a while to find each other, especially within the secular homeschool. Community, because people kind of drift in and out of homeschooling, and that's fine. I think people use homeschooling or unschooling when they need it and when, like, especially at, like, certain inflection points in a childhood or in a life, you might just need some time off or need some more unstructured time or just need to run around more. And, you know, for those years, whether they be one or two or 10, you know, we're here for you.

Wonderful. And Brooklyn Apple Academy is such a focal point for the homeschooling community in Brooklyn. And I would say even people who aren't necessarily homeschooling who have just decided that having that this kind of community that Brooklyn Apple Academy offers and the types of eclectic activities are just really important to them and especially to their children. You know, some families would say, you know, well, we can never leave Brooklyn Apple Academy because my child has to be around Noah, you know, and I think that you were really, you know, it's such a privilege to be able to choose your child's teacher. And I know children feel so wonderful and have so much fun and feel so safe and loved around you. So you, as a teacher has been, I think, a really important part of shaping that community. You mentioned some of the different kinds of people in your community, Unschoolers and, you know, people who are looking to run around and, you know, could you give me a sense of the flavor of the different. I don't want to say, like, archetypes or kinds of people who choose to enroll at Brooklyn Apple Academy and what needs they're looking to fulfill by being part of this community.

Yeah, I mean, connection is a big thing. Just having. I think parents want to make sure that their kids have a choice of friends to hang out, to hang out with and a place to make friends. You know, Brooklyn Apple is also a place to make messes and to use tools and cook in ways that you. That are difficult to do in a small New York City apartment. We have a big wood shop kitchen, and I'm. Yeah, and we're just expect messes to happen. Like when kids are cooking here. Like, I am complete 100 ready for an egg to fall on the floor. And for my reaction or whatever, whoever staff member's reaction to that. When that happens, it's like, okay, that happens when I'm cooking at home. Like, I'm really a pain in the butt. I'm really uptight. I'm done.

Oh, my gosh.

Picking up messes. Like, I Have like. And so if an egg falls on the floor at home, I'm like, oh yeah, I'm just like. Or flour lands outside the bowl. But like, Crooked Apple is a place like we, we make messes. We, we make potion. Like we'll have a kid like cooking a potion which is the South. Like they found this the South. One kid found the South Beach Diet, which is a book, and found a paperback copy and brought it back to Apple. Was like, oh, this is proportions. And he put it in a pot with some water and some spices and maybe some onion and cooked it up. I don't know if I have patience to do that at home. But at Brooken Apple, the infrastructure is there to just get weird and explore and have fun with that. I have to go back one second to what you said. You said some kind words about me. But everyone else that works at broken Apple is 10 times more patient and more wonderful and a better teacher than me.

I don't believe it. But you're humble. They are wonderful. You have so many wonderful teachers and you've grown so much since it was Noah and six children. And occasionally a parent helper or an intern or something of that nature. Yeah, it's really amazing to see the very different types of teachers that you've attracted. And going back to what you were talking about, dropping an egg on the floor, I think one thing that's always struck me, you know, whenever I wanted to have someone collaborate with me, I asked them to come and walk into Brooklyn Apple Academy. And I feel like this kind of seals the deal. It's my closer. You know, you've been so nice about, you know, letting me bring various technical co founders into the space. And you know, they just go to Brooklyn Apple Academy and say, okay, now I understand the future of education. This is so cool. And in. Sometimes you just kind of have to see it and to live it to understand and, and for me, you know, I remember the first time that I visited Brooklyn Apple Academy, you invited me to come on a field trip to the Brooklyn Museum or. No, actually, I think, well, it was the Brooklyn Museum and the Brooklyn Library. And I remember I, you know, I was very unfamiliar with this idea of self directed learning and you know, kind of children's rights whatnot. And I, and I, and I go and I show up and I see six children like swinging around this like stairs to go up to the Brooklyn Library. Like, like monkeys. Like I was like six little monkeys that were just swinging around this stairwell bar. And I remember this kind of feeling of like this kind of teacher response in me of like, oh my gosh, they're going to get hurt. And, you know, they weren't in any sort of danger at all. It was very low railing. But I just wasn't used to seeing that level of like, unbrok ridled, unchecked child aliveness and energy. And it's, you know, we have in our society these kind of adult spaces and children's spaces, and we tend to kind of hide that wild aliveness away. And, you know, as I came to know you and kind of let go and question my own conditioning, I started to just really appreciate this aspect of what you were creating. And of course, I mean, the children were amazing at the museum. Like, you couldn't ask for more respectful and inquisitive interest in kids. So I guess, you know, where I'm going with this via, you know, is, is talking about this, you know, this space for aliveness where you have parents and kids and this unchecked energy and you, if I believe you consider yourself a democratic school. And so can you talk a little bit about how you, how democracy operates at your school, how you give children a voice in and what goes on and create that space for their own freedom.

Two part question. Yes. Two part, like, yeah, so about the aliveness.

Yes.

Like, I think we're always just like trying to go up to the edge of like, what is safe and like, and what can we do and this. And, and often, sometimes negotiating and renegotiating with the kids. And I guess this goes in the democracy too. There's this wall that's about waist height that the kids really like to walk on on the edge of the park. And we walk on that all the time. And it's a lot of fun. It's. You're using balance. There's a very small danger element. It's not like it's way tight. But we had, I remember having one student that was, you know, very confident, had to be on the wall. He was like, very and very sure of himself. And I made a rule one time, like, because it was, it was snowy and it was like the wall, this top of the wall is slippery. Like, you know, like, we're not walking on the wall today. And he was like, we had a. And this, like, completely like, broke his brain. He, like, just like, I need to be on top of the wall. Like, like. And so we had this, we had a long, like a long talk, was like, okay, the rest of the group is going to go with, is going to go with the Other. The other staff member, because I can't have 10 kids on a slippery wall, but I can have one kid who is very, you know, it's very supervised, and me next, you know, right next to him, be on a slippery wall because it means so much to him and his. His sense of like, just like, bodily autonomy at that moment. I don't know. So, like, we have small enough groups that, like, we can kind of work with kids on. On situations that are, like, very important to him but stressful for a group. It's like groups. I think there's a lot of things that groups aren't able to do because of the size. With smaller groups, you can kind of really acknowledge the truth about someone in that moment. So I think we're able to do that, but we are constantly re evaluating risk and danger as we go, and I think we do a pretty good job of it for the most part.

I agree. Sometimes even in the wood shop, haven't. I know that you, at a certain point, work with Gabri Tully at Brightworks in San Francisco, and you have some really interesting guidelines in terms of how children are in the wood shop.

Kids use tools. At Brooklyn Apple, we have had a wood shop for six or seven years now, and we have not sent anyone to the emergency room or even with stitches.

Wow. Yeah, that seemed pretty amazing. More than shop at school, I'm sure, with their rigid guidelines.

No, I mean, like, I think it's. I think kids want to take risks, and it's developmentally appropriate that they take risks and that they're kind of pushing, you know, pushing, you know, pushing the boundaries of, you know, of what they can do. And I think in a. In the system that have a million kids and, And. And can be sued for millions of dollars, like, you just, like you just can't. There's a lot of things you can't do. Like they've taken pools out of schools, and there's like. There's no sharp edges. And when I see kids on field trips in the park, they have to be very, you know, very regimented, very close together. And it's like a. It's a very. It's a different experience. And this is because of scale. And I think, you know, small scale allows humans to be, you know, more themselves.

Sure. And it allows for more democracy. It's easier to come to agreement.

Yeah. So as far as we're looked differently than other democratic schools, we don't have a lot of long. We don't have a lot. We don't have a lot of meetings.

And a lot of votes.

A lot of votes. What we do do is in the morning, kids come in and they talk about what kind of projects they want to work on. We'll go around the room. If the kid wants to start a store selling lemonade, then someone else might come in and like, oh, can I join your store? I want to sell brownies and be like, oh, sure, you can join my store. Or they might say, no, I want to do stuff I love. And then in that case, we're like, okay, well, maybe we'll set up two different tables or maybe we'll have two different time slots. Kids learn very early on that if they have too many collaborators in their store, then they have to split the money like five ways. And the math on that gets, you know, can get sad for a kid that wants to make a lot of money.

For sure.

I don't want to split $25 ways. I want 20. Yeah. So there's a ton of lessons we learn from, like, from these micro capitalist projects, because I think, I think that that is one of the popular projects around here is starting a store because we're on a busy commercial avenue or in fifth Avenue in Brooklyn, and there's a lot of foot traffic, a lot of like incredible friendly neighbors. And so we. They. That is a, that is a big project and I think the biggest. There's so many lessons that are learned within that project. My favorite one being this kind of rejection therapy that happens where kids are. They might be selling, you know, if they're selling about their popcorn or whatever. And 20 people will go by and say, no, you know, no thanks. Or they'll say the meanest lie that the grown ups says, I'll be back.

Oh, no. I feel like I'm that person so bad.

You say no, okay, I'll be back. No, it's fine. Kids can hear it. Everyone. People can hear a no, rather, anyway, so. Or I'll be back. Or the good. Anyway, so they hear this rejection 20 times. And then the 21st person that comes by says, oh, sure, I'd love a bag of popcorn. And then here's. And then here's. And then here's $5. Here's $5. Keep the change, you know, like, so they get to have that feeling of like, like there's 20 rejections. That one, like success. And I feel that's good just for, just like, I don't know, building up some kind of inner strength.

100%. And I was thinking also about what you were saying. Just you phrased it so beautifully about how you were giving children the space to go as far as they could towards their limit without getting hurt. And I'm wondering, I mean now, wow, like you were working with 5 year olds and some of the children from the original Brooklyn Apple are teens, maybe even college now. I'm curious if you observed some of the, I don't want to use the word results but how this has impacted who they've become as adults today. This, this kind of education that, that you're offering them.

Yeah, I mean I'm not, I don't have scientific data.

Your experience and observations would be plenty.

And they just doing really cool things. I have one student that's. Wait, I don't know if you ever met Blake, but he's going to be. He's on a PhD path already and he's 18 or 19. He went to starting college at 16 anyway, so I can't take credit for all that. But for homeschoolers and unschoolers I think, and I homeschooled one year. I think it really helps to understand that whatever you're going to do going forward or learn, that you're self empowered to go in those directions, to get those resources to learn what you need to learn. You don't need to rely on school administrators or a school system to make that happen. I don't know, we should all be autodidacts really that enjoy learning. And if you enjoy learning, you're just going to keep learning and it's going to take you into cool paths for sure.

And I think some of these students, you know, character traits, I think of our resilience, a willingness to try new things. I see a lot of openness towards adults and different people in their lives. So some of those qualities are ones that I have remarked on your students as they've grown.

Yeah, I think homeschoolers are less afraid of grownups and older kids especially. There's a lot of age mixing or like that goes on at Brooklyn Apple. So there's kids four and a half up to 11 at Brooklyn Apple on a lot of days and then the teens are sometimes popping in. So as I growing up, I was always with mostly with kids my own age and anyone a year older was a demigod and I was kind of, you know, a little afraid of them. But I think kids here like can see like, oh, these, these seven year old, it's your five, you know, these seven year olds, they're cool or whatever. But like, you know, I don't know if they're demigods.

Often, you know, when I go to Brooklyn Apple Academy, first of all, there's very huge variety of the number of kids on any given day. One day there might be two, one day there might be 20. Often you'll see parents in the classroom and it's, it's much different than walking into a school classroom where it's just one adult and a bunch of kids. It's all different ages and it's real. A lot of the parents come in and volunteer, work in the shop and sometimes they'll bring a toddler with them. It's pretty great in that regard. And perhaps you mentioned that part of what you do in your democratic system is that at the beginning of the day students meant students get to select a project they might want to work on for that day. Could you talk us through what a typical day looks like? Maybe we'll save field trip day for after. But what might a day at Brooklyn Apple look like for a student? How is it structured?

Yeah, so they come in, in the morning, kind of get settled, maybe start playing a little bit, hang out with their friends. And around 9:30, when everyone has finally drifted in, homeschoolers on the whole are not as time rigid with time as others. I'm like. And also our space is not like, I would prefer the kids coming in, like not stressed out, but you know, the parents not to be stressed out and the kids not to be stressed out about arriving right at a rigid time. Because that's a really cruddy way to start a day. Just like being really stressed out about time. But it's like very common way to start your day. So anyway, so we're not like very rigid about time. They all filter in and by 9:30, 9:45 we'll have a meeting about what kind of projects we want to work on for the day. So we'll go around in a circle and. Yeah, and the kids will say, I want to go to the park, I want to bake bread, I want to work on my movie, I want to make a comic book, I want to play Dungeons and Dragons. And then if other kids want to collaborate, they'll raise their hands and then we'll have a list of all the activities that could happen in that day. And then staff will make sure that they have whatever one on one help they need, whatever ingredients that they're cooking or whatever supplies that they need if they're making a project. If for some reason we don't have that supply. There's a dollar store across the street or a hardware store one block away. So that handles a lot of it. But if they want to make something really extreme that we don't have, you know, like. Or it's hard to source, then sometimes order that and make sure that they have it next week. Yeah. So we're really facilitating their creative dreams. And I'm sometimes extremely jealous of this kind of life that they have, because if I had a place where I was just like, dum dee dum, dee dum, let's wake up and, like, go to this place. And then everyone's like, so, what do you want to do today? How can I make that happen? That sounds fun. Yeah. So anyway, I'm jealous. I think they have it pretty good.

They have a pretty good. I mean, but what you do is very different than coddling them. I mean, you allow children to experience natural consequences of their actions. You don't just give them whatever you want. Can you kind of help us understand how you navigate? And I don't want to say, like, behavioral challenges or challenges that might arise or you know, really, you know, give children that sense that they are responsible rather than just, you know, I think there is.

There is some of that happening within that. Within that structure of, like, as I just mentioned, they show up and there's, like, this really great opportunity. So that's pretty wonderful. We are this small society. We're all this small group. I think people in general want to make things work, and they want to go through their days without too much conflict and tension. So I think there is just a natural desire for people to want to work things out and want to work out conflicts in positive ways so that they can just have days that are not. Where the tone is not a stressful one and where they just feel at ease. So, you know, for the most part, I think we're able to just guide people towards that place, because that's where people want to go. Not that we haven't had students that love drama, and that's getting like. And get something from that. Like some kind of. Like, there's actually kind of a nice feeling you can get from a charge through the body of excitement. So for those students, then we'll have to be like, okay, I realize that you love drama and conflict, but here at Brooklyn Apple, we can't do all that here. And sometimes these things take time, and these are relationships that we build over the course of a year and years. And for the most part, we're able to work all these things out with kids that we have, you Know, occasionally ripping apple is not the best fit for kids. We have some kids that come here and really the best fit for them because of what. Whatever they're going on, whatever they're going through in their life usually is, like, structure, like, oh, your life is really kind of falling apart right now. You could really use a place where everything's the same every day or, you know, similar every day. And you have a very, you know, a clear set of. Of, you know, a clear set of very minute boundaries and rules. And for some kids, that. That. That is actually what they need. And it's taken us a while to kind of, like, recognize that, okay, maybe Brooklyn Apple. While Brooklyn Apple is super fun and stimulating for a lot of kids and that's what they need for other kids, like, that might not actually be the best match.

Yes. And what I've observed is that typically those children tend to be a little bit older, and they're used to the more strict rules of school, and that kind of freedom that they experience at Proclamation might just feel totally overwhelming, and they don't know where to find themselves in that space. It can be also true with younger kids who just need things to be very well organized. But I think that it is very hard when you have been, I will say oppressed, because I think that a lot of schools are oppressive environment to suddenly be able to do whatever you. That can be a bit shocking.

Yeah, there's. Yeah, there's the deschooling term and idea that people go through. I know. It was a shock to me when I first I interned at Brooklyn Preschool and I came in from the school system. That was all, you know, that all I knew besides my one year of homeschooling.

And.

Yeah, it's a big culture shock. It's much different to have a place where kids are empowered and it's all about their. Their interests. And it's really. It's not for a staff member, you know, such as myself. Like, sometimes I have. Myself or other staff members will have really great ideas of things that we want, you know, that we think the kids will love and. But it's not, you know, it's not. It's not where they're at and not what they want to do. And it can be sad and disappointing to be like, no, don't. You know.

Yeah. I mean, no. I've heard several people refer to you as the most emotionally intelligent person that they know and where I. I'm just so in awe of how you're able to step back and allow children to have their freedom. I mean, in me, it's something I really needed to work on is that impulse to control and manage behavior is so strong and perhaps from my teacher training or upbringing, but you just seem to be able to let go in such a natural, organic way. Is that ever hard? I mean, how do you think you became like this guru of children?

It's been time and good teachers. I unfortunately tend to learn like I need. I can't just accept like established knowledge. Sometimes I'm just like, okay, like you say we have to do this, but like, why can we do, can we do this other way? And like, and that's, that's how I learned, fortunately and unfortunately. But as far as emotional intelligence, I can, I, you know, I picked up definitely some skills from NBC or nonviolent communication a few years ago. And before that, I would definitely not say that I was the most emotional, intelligent person that definitely like helped give me a roadmap for like understanding feelings and needs and stuff like that.

They do, they do teach you a lot. I, I've often heard this phrase, the red thread of desire. So yes, to desire is suffering. But if we can kind of follow our desire to end that suffering to all the way, that's where the insight emerges. And it seems like you do really allow the children to experience that suffering and let them teach it what it may. Buddha Noah. So I, you know, when we, the way we met, I didn't even say the way we met, but my first company was called Cottage Class and it was a marketplace for micro schools. So the idea was that a teacher could list their micro school on our site. We would do payments and marketing for them and potentially help with other things like space. I ended up trying out a lot of stuff and Noah was really the first person who partnered with us. And we had so many learnings along the way, and it was really fun getting the word out for this wonderful community that so many people needed but didn't necessarily know about. During the pandemic, there's this phrase learning pod that arose and tons of people started building micro schools with like one teacher, a group of kids, and there are more and more of them. And I think it's a kind of a really amazing place to experiment, etc. But one thing that I really dislike about this is that I feel like these people are basically recreating school. This environment is five days a week, nine to three, very little parent involvement, set on learning certain academic skills and maybe learning it in more innovative ways. Doing project based learning, outdoor learning, using Cooler curriculum, but the same way they're still learning all the skills in the same place at the same time in the same way, which I feel is a little bit antithetical to the spirit of homeschooling, which is every child learning in a unique way for themselves. What I really love about Brooklyn Apple Academy is that you're not trying to be a school. When we think about modular learning. I've been using this term a lot to describe this certain type of homeschooling, where parents are really trying to curate the ideal education for their unique child. There are these different modules. You might learn math, one on one with a parent or with a tutor, or in independent study, you might learn drama by going to a drama club. You might learn science by going on a school bus that has a science lab, or you might learn music by hosting a class in your house. And you will often join a homeschool co op like Brooklyn Apple Academy, where children will learn different kinds of skills, like how to get along in a group, how to be civic action, how to start their own business, and learning from role models such as you and the other teachers. I just really feel like. I guess this isn't really a question, it's more of a statement, but I just feel like it's a really big mistake for these micro schools to try to recreate school or for a parent to send their child to a micro school and say, now it's done. I'm outsourcing my child's education to this place. What do you think are the skills that children are developing at Brooklyn Apple Academy that I think are vital to their education? What would you. What are they. What are they getting out of it?

Noah, I. I am not the most ideological person in this movement or that you'll ever meet, and I'm fine with incremental change when it comes to education. So if. If you're in a micro school and it looks a little. And it looks kind of like school, I'm sure they're going to be able to kind of honor the individual more than in a larger school. And, like, the kids are probably gonna have fun. They're probably gonna have fun. Manisha. It's probably gonna be.

They're gonna have a ton of fun. I mean, these schools are wonderful. They're, like, run by my best friends.

And then also, like, one thing I have strove not to do is to ever question decisions that other parents make, especially in my life, because, like, it's also individual, like. And yes, the. The. And funny enough, the homeschooling I did actually, you know, because it was in 1993 or 94, actually. They were. The unschooling, I don't think was something that my parents knew about or. So it did look a lot like school. For the first half of the day we had like, we sat down in a desk across from my parents and then I homeschooled with my best friend and his, his parents. And for the first half of the day it looked very much like school. But then the second half of the day was self directed and we chose what we wanted to do and a lot of the room within those projects to the science of our subject. So like, you know, I don't know schoolishness, if, you know, if you can cut down on some of that in a micro school, and that's great, I'm okay with incremental change and what other people, you know, decide what we do at Brooklyn Apple is, you know, it's obviously, it's what I've decided to do and what we do, what we learn here, we learn how to work in groups, we learn how to collaborate. I think these are things that we need to learn as human beings if we're gonna like, move forward. And it's something that I think we're often, or I feel ill equipped to do, or I feel like our society is left as ill equipped. I think sometimes when I'm in groups, it's very hard for, for people to think about, to kind of balance individual out, individuality with. With groups. And we're a very kind of hyper capitalist, hyper individualist society. And you know, I guess Brooklyn Apple is somewhat a product of that. But, you know, I think we need to learn how to work together and how to do that without the hierarchy of grownups. Kind of direct, you know, pulling the strings and making things happen for kids to be able to kind of make, you know, make, you know, make their own movies, to make their own projects. And we're here as an advisory role, but not. We're not the captain, so I think that's useful. And then like, you know, just be given space, you know, given space. There's often. Sometimes we're in the park or on a field trip where a kid will go off by themselves and read a book under a tree or just sit under a tree for a little bit and have solitude. And when I first saw that, I was like, oh, wow, that kid there. They have three brothers and sisters in a small apartment. Like, where in their life do they ever get a moment of solitude? And for myself, I grew up in a rural area. I had that access to that and it was something that I really enjoyed. So sometimes we are able to give that or give the gift of solitude. Other skills. We do a lot of cooking. I feel like everybody should learn how to cook. I think it's, or, I don't know, that's where I'm ideological. I think everyone should know how to cook.

Life skills. Yep, there we go. Cooking movement.

Yeah, people should know how to cook and, and you know, kids handle money at a very early age here at Brooklyn Apple and starting stores and they should know how, you know, I think those are good, those are good skill. They, I don't know, we're, we're learning how to be like human, you know, human beings that are interested in stuff and move through the world.

I love so much of what you said. I mean, having that space for solitude. And we all have different levels of need for solitude. And also just thank you for the reminder. You know, parents ultimately, I think for the most part really do know what's best for their child. And some of these micro schools are just incredible places. And I think I was reacting more, I think when I was more involved in helping you market the school. I think sometimes I noticed a certain fear of parents that their children wouldn't get the academics that they needed at Brooklyn Apple. And I really tried to encourage these parents to think about not just getting all the academics in one place at the same time. I mean, it seems it can feel safest to say, like, I want this other person to make sure my child is learning academics. But even in the same amount of time that you help your child with homework, they can go so far in math and language arts. And what one person is really good at teaching, such as collaboration or cooking or self directed learning, another person is going to be really amazing at teaching math. And even when it comes to curriculum, I often tell parents, like, get a full curriculum, but get a math supplement. And there's really a lot of really extraordinary things to be found when you start piecing, taking these different pieces and putting them together into your own mosaic as opposed to just trying to get them all taken care of in one place at one time. And you know, I mean, I can understand, you know, people are so busy, they're working so hard, it's so stressful. And I certainly understand the temptation to outsource. But if you're outsourcing because you don't have confidence in yourself, I would just, you know, maybe question that.

I think it takes a lot of Trust Manisha. That's a. It's a. It's a lot.

It does. It does.

And then I think culture and like, I, I know a lot of you have to kind of go out on a limb and trust that and, and trust that process. Especially. You might have a lot of people in your life, like grandparents or something that are like, what the. You know, what the heck are you doing? So it's going to take, you know, I think, you know, as. As. As this movement has more of a track record and, you know, goes, you know, becomes older and has, you know, decades of experience under the, under its spell, it's going to be easier to kind of show people, like, look, this, this works. But, you know, there's a. There's a, There's. I understand why people might not want to take that risk. And I think. And I think, you know, yeah, it's. It's scary. It's. It's scary to try something, you know, this different, especially if you. If you haven't seen. Haven't met kids that have gone, you know, have done. Done something different and seen how cool they are, and it just takes a lot of faith. Faith based education.

Yeah, it does take faith. And, and it feels like a huge risk because it's someone you care about so deeply, your child. And I mean, I think, you know, I mean, really, thank you for reminding me to be a little more compassionate. You're so good for me as a friend in that way, because I can get so judgy and I forget, you know, I have breathed in the air at Brooklyn Apple Academy and seen how joyous these children are and watch them grow up from the age of four to now, you know, do, you know, getting. Doing these really cool, innovative projects and helping in their community and organizing climate action or, you know, writing a book, producing a podcast. And, you know, I just have to remember, you know, not everyone is there yet. You know, take. Let them be at the point in their journey they are today. And, you know, so, so thank you. That's a good reminder for me. But I just, I love what you're doing so much. So I promised everyone we would tell them about Field Trip Day, which is just. It's legendary. Like, Field Trip Day is this most popular day at Brooklyn app. This is your brainchild. What is it? What happens on Field Trip Day?

It's not a. It's.

It's.

Yeah, it's fairly simple. It's that we are in, you know, we're in New York City and is there, you know, are there A lot of cool things to see and do here. Yes. There just are, there's like. So we make use of that, that we're, you know, and I, I think in other, you know, other places. That's true too. Or when I grew up, I think, what inspired field trip days. You know, my year of homeschooling, we went on a. Was in Maine and there are, you know, and that's a rural state. It's a lot different than New York. But there are a lot of cool field trips to do with, you know, in Maine. We went to the concrete factory and they took us on a tour of their, of the, of their big limestone, you know, open pit mine and into the concrete factory with this huge furnace where they were, you know, with the, the heat of the sun melting the, you know, like, slaking the lime. And, you know, that was inspiring. I was like, okay, this is cool.

And.

And then we went on rockhounding field trips. We were studying immigration in that year. And so we, we went on a. We went, we went to New York City and we went to the, the Tenement Museum. And we were in, you know, and we were in Chinatown and my mom saw steam coming out of a, a ninth floor window. And she's like, oh, I know what that is. That's a garment. You know, that's a garment. You know, they're making garments up there. So she, we. We walked up the nine flights of stairs up to the, up to the, up to the ninth floor and we visited, you know, a sweatshop. It's not, you know, I mean, the steam was from. They have big garment steamers to like, you know, flatten everything anyway, so like, like that opened my eyes to be like, okay, it's not just what we want to learn. It's not just in the book. It is in the world. And seeing it in the world is going to. And seeing it, that's going to actually tell you that whatever you're learning is real and is applicable. And why wouldn't you want to. Why wouldn't I. Why wouldn't you want to incorporate the lessons of the world into whatever you're learning? So we're here in New York City and we visit art studios from artists. I love factory visits. There's tons of really great cultural institutions and museums, and we visit those. Yeah, we've had some really incredible field. And then this last couple of years, we've had a van field trip day, so we've been able to go out into stream beds in New Jersey and look for Fossils and go on really amazing hikes and just like, just be out and about in the world. The world's a cool place, and being able to see as much of it as you can, especially as a kid, is great. And the kids that go through Brooklyn Apple over the course of a year might end up going on 200 field trips over four or five years and get to really see New York City in ways that. And kind of understand the totality of it that maybe their parents don't even understand. They've. A lot of parents don't really. It's like, oh, I don't really understand Queens, or I've never been to the Bronx, or I've never been to Staten Island. Well, these kids have, and they can kind of. They, you know, they have a good understanding of this, of this space and place.

It's such invaluable experiential learning. I mean, you can learn about social science and history, geography, natural history. It's, it's, it's really amazing. And the field trips are just so much fun, too. And, and I think they're just great. There's a Bank street professor, I think, who was talking about the importance of travel in children's learning. And I've heard kind of several famous CEOs say they always look for employees who are well traveled, who have been exposed to different viewpoints. And I think what's incredible about New York is that you can get every country in the world and every viewpoint just right next to your doorstep. So I just think field trip day is such a wonderful experience and the kids love it.

Field trips are cool. Everyone should be going on lots of field trips if they can.

Noah, you know, I just love Brooklyn Apple Academy so much. To me, it's a home away from home. It's a safe space. It's a space that makes me optimistic and feel full. Is there anything I've missed today that we didn't touch upon that?

I don't know, Manisha. I can talk about Brooklyn Apple for hours and hours. This has been one hour. I can talk about it much longer at great length.

If families are interested and they want to check it out, what's the best way to get started? I mean, should they come send their kid to visit for a day? How are you doing this?

Check out our social media. We've got thousands of pictures and videos of what we've been up to. And then from that, you can get a pretty good sense, a curated sense of what we're up to. There's, I think, a Video pinned. That's a little tour of the school. You can go on, on. And then, yeah, give me. You can call me. I talk to parents all the time. They're always welcome to call me and talk about it. And then they're always welcome to the. Yeah, come. Come visit when we're in session. They come in and they can spend an hour or they can spend all day if they're having fun. And. Yeah, come join us.

Join us. I, you know, I. I definitely recommend a visit. Like, if you're already sold. I mean, this. For some of you, this just might be incredible. Like, your mind is blown that this exists and you're gonna sign up right now. And. And for others, you might be kind of on the fence. I would definitely recommend sending your child for a visit because nine times out of 10, your child is gonna have such a great time there, and it's gonna be so obvious that this. This is a space where they're going to love learning and make friends and where you're going to get to be part of a community that you love. So if that's an option, I really recommend it. And don't forget, there's plenty of things you can try at Brooklyn Apple. You can join a club, you can join a camp. You know, there's lots of options, but I definitely recommend the visit. It's truly extraordinary. And I do want to mention also that if you want, you can donate to Brooklyn Apple and help them give scholarships to students who might not be able to afford it. You guys are amazing at making it possible for anyone to come. I've been lucky to be part of that process, and we always find a way for people. So. Yeah, so it's. It's the Insta Brooklyn Apple Academy I think you can find in most places. We'll have all the information in the show notes. So. All right, so as we. As we wrap it up, I want to ask you, is there anything completely unrelated to what we've talked about today that you are learning right now that you find interesting right now?

I've always been really interested in New York City history and history in general. And I'm teaching this new class about infrastructure at Brooklyn Apple, and through that, I'm reading a textbook about city planning, which I never read.

Oh, my gosh.

So I'm putting myself. So I'm going back to school about that, and that's been really. That's been fun.

That's pretty awesome. I definitely do not want to read that textbook, but I really want to hear from you what you learned when you are ready to share with me. That. That sounds really, really amazing. I mean, I appreciate that you are bringing that textbook information to life through your class, because not everybody would want to read a textbook. So thank you for doing that work.

Oh, yeah. I mean, we're always seeing its failures and successes every day as you walk down the street. I've been in the same city, living in the Same City since 1999. And so for me, and I think a lot of people that live here is like, it becomes the only city and the only place in a way. And you kind of. And for me, I can kind of forget, be like, oh, look at the city over here. It's designed in this totally different way. Not really. Oh, that really works. Like, what can we, you know, what can we do that's different? So I'd like to help bring that eye to this class.

Well, Noah, thank you so much. I mean, people listening probably notice this conversation. A little bit of a different feel than usual. Noah and I are really good friends, and it's just, you know, it can be really hard working to try to change education. And it's so valuable to have a friend like you, Noah, where we can laugh about things, learn to take ourselves lightly, and also, as you did in this conversation, hold each other accountable. And I just really appreciate the ways that you hold me accountable to families, to children, to myself, and the values that I want to bring into the world. So just thank you so much for being here today and everyone listening. I just. I love Brooklyn Apple so much. If you're thinking about it, you know, please consider giving your child this gift because it's a truly unique and magical place.

Yes. All right. Thank you, Manisha.

Thank you, Noah. And, you know, anyone listening, if you have questions, things you're curious about, please write them in the comments. We'd love to. To continue the conversation after the show. And thanks again. No, I hope you have a glorious day.

Thanks, Nisha.

You too.