5 Crucial Tips for Giving People the Courage to Take Risks and Be Creative

Over the last few months, we've talked a lot about employee engagement levels. As much as some of the focus has been on mental health, mental wellness, and a lot of issues that we've come to realize really stem from the culture of work. Imagine though, if we can bring creative thinking, creative work, and a culture of allowing people to work within their zone of genius. Imagine what that would do for your business. And that's what we're talking about today on Marc Haine Live. Welcome to today's show! Hey, actually this is the very first time. This is episode 135, very first time that we are actually going live on LinkedIn as well. So, for all those folks on LinkedIn, welcome! Thank you so much for joining us today. This is going to be an exciting insight, exciting broadcast. For you, if you've never come across Marc Haine Live before, this is where small business owners and entrepreneurs pick up core skill sets to help them create the jaw-dropping, show-stopping experience that their customers and their employees deserve. I am your host, Service Expert and Master of Experiences Marc Haine. And I am so glad to have you here joining me today. My guest for this Really special episode is creative catalyst Caroline Brookfield. And today, we will be talking about how business operators and managers can intentionally move their teams into the creative realm. So, stay with us and we will define and uncover terms like divergent and convergent thinking. We'll talk about how to support the risk of failing forward and how we can face uncertainty with A new level of curiosity. We are trying to solve new problems with old solutions. And that is no longer adequate in our almost post-pandemic era. Our disengagement from daily creative thinking habits has limited our ability to see the new possibilities that are ahead of us. We're pigeonholing ourselves. And human beings now are more disengaged, no longer willing or wishing to perform purposeless tasks. So that brings us to our Question of the Day. So, how do you support creativity in your workplace? I'd love for you to be part of this conversation, go ahead and put in the comment box and make sure please hashtag it #ExperienceLeadership so we can make sure you're part of this conversation. You know, I am really thrilled to introduce Dr. Caroline Brookfield. Caroline is an author, veterinarian, entrepreneur, and a stand-up comedian. She has helped left-brainers amplify their originality with a creative mindset to find novel solutions to chronic problems. Although she admits that she can't draw a stick figure or sing Happy Birthday, she expresses her creativity through performance, writing, and creative problem solving. Like for instance, sneaking vegetables into smoothies. She is based in Calgary, Alberta and lives with her husband and 2 teens, and a rescue dog, and 2 cockatiels. Caroline, welcome to the show! It's great to have you.

Hey Marc! That's so awesome to be here. I'm so glad I am your first LinkedIn Live. Like, it's creativity.

You're my first!

It's creativity and I can't think of the word and encoded. That's not the right word. But you know what I mean.

Yeah, yeah. Before we get into today's topic, could you just discuss a little bit about what you do to serve your clients?

Yeah, sometimes people are very curious about why is a veterinarian talking about creativity. And the dots all came together in a long convoluted story. But suffice to say that I realized through my professional journey that creativity was the thing that I was missing. I wasn't feeling engaged. I was hopping around from job to job searching something and I didn't even know what. And when I reconnected with a previous love of performance and drama and photography, I started to really see the world in a different way. And I was so excited about sharing this with other people. Because I hear so many people who say, oh, I used to do that thing in high school that I loved and I don't know why I don't do it anymore. And I think that's one of the things that's really missing in this era of people feeling like a lackluster performance and lackluster life.

We've seen a lot of changes now through, and as I mentioned at the very beginning, through the pandemic. And I think we've created new sets of expectations. Why do you think that this idea, this topic of creativity is so important today?

I think it's very important for many reasons. One is because we've been so programmed since the Industrial Revolution to be productive and putting widgets into boxes and things. And we don't need that anymore. We have robots to do that. And we need to reconnect with our creativity. We're all creative. We all have this creative capacity. But we've kind of lost it a little bit in our journey to become inbox zero or super productive. Because sometimes, the characteristics that we need to engage our creativity are antypical or contrary to what we think we should do in business to get ahead and be efficient.

Yeah, yeah. It's really interesting because I think at the same token though, it's also challenged leaders to try to figure out how do I think differently now. Like it's this One aspect of, you know, we've been talking a lot about this idea of zone of genius. Before we get too deep into this conversation though, could we please define what you mean by creativity? Because I believe different people have different perceptions of what that might look like.

Oh, you're absolutely right. A lot of people hear creativity and they think, oh, I don't do painting. That's their definition or some visual or other art form. Researchers have Different ways of talking about it. Generally, one convention is to call it big C or capital C creativity versus small c or little c creativity. And so, when people hear creativity and they're thinking of Picasso and Van Gogh and Steve Jobs, that would be a big C creativity where you are creating something new, something important, and it's recognized by your peers in your domain as something novel and useful. However, what I talk about is the little c creativity. And that is things that we are already all doing. I guarantee every person who's watching this is doing something creative. They just don't call it that. Whether you throw a dash of paprika in your meal, whether you choose some earrings to go with your outfit, or whether you build a pivot table that does something unique that helps you be more efficient in business, those are all examples of little c creativity.

So, it's almost like anytime you're solving a problem.

Pretty much. It's called creative problem solving. So, the difference would be when you're dreaming about something, you know that person that's like, oh, I had that idea. And that person stole my idea that I had. It's like, well, that's imagination. Ideas are imagination, which is useful. But creativity is applying that imagination into something to solve a problem usually.

Oh, well, that's a great definition. I love that. I never really thought of it from that perspective. I was actually walking through a trade show yesterday with a colleague of mine. And he was talking about all these times he's had all these great ideas about stuff. And then, all of a sudden, before you know it, somebody else had come up with it. And we talked about how and why that happens, that we get these ideas and yet, we kind of just park it and go, oh, that maybe one day. And then, somebody else does it and you're like, darn it!

You know what? It reminds me of one of my favorite quotes about creativity, which I can't find an attribution for or a source ironically. And the quote is, Creativity is plagiarism undiscovered.

Ooh, that is awesome! Plagiarism undiscovered. I think I might even steal that one as well.

Yeah, we can.

And I'll attribute it to you who couldn't attribute to anybody. How's that?

Perfect.

At the top of the show, I mentioned engagement rates. Like, I know that we are— I mean, businesses are struggling right now with not only are they lacking staff, but the staff they do have now are more engaged now at a higher rate than they've ever been before. Are there any other indicators that leaders may be on the wrong track within their culture that you've noticed with your clients?

Well, sometimes organizations or leaders will come to me and say, I want my teams to be more creative. Can you help me with that? And their teams are terrified to say anything because they are penalized for mistakes. Or there's a culture of, we've already tried that, or that's a bad idea, or we have to run that through legal. Of course, that is part of it. But so, I think when people say they want creativity, it's like unleashing a can of worms in a way. So, how some leaders are very afraid of creative employees because they believe it lends some type of chaos. And in an environment where there's a lot of micromanaging, a lot of like top-heavy organizations who want to control everything, it can be very difficult to engage creativity in employees because a huge part of creativity is allowing for failure and exploration. And if you don't allow that in your organization, then sorry, not much I can do to help you, right?

So, which brings up a really good discussion point. And that is the importance of trust within organizations to be able to allow people to work within their zone of genius. This idea of trust to support more creativity in the workplace. What do you have to— any comments about that?

Well, I think in the end, trust is about knowing where someone— having trust in yourself to know where your limits are and where you're capable of taking something responsibly and competently. And then conversely, from a leader, knowing what your team and organization allows for in that individual Capacity. So, I think it was Leanne Davey. I could be wrong on the reference who said, managing is not about telling people how to get up the mountain. It's to tell them which mountain to get up and allowing them their own way to get there. So, it's trying to find a common— I think to be clear on expectations. I'm a big fan of clear expectations like how— what is the framework or the crucible around which we're trying to create this project. And what latitude can I give to you? And I have to trust that you will come to me if you're feeling unsure or you're feeling like you're in over your head. And I think at the end of the day, trust is really about a mutual understanding of where those expectations are, if that makes any sense.

Yeah, yeah. And to your point, this idea of the delegation piece of being able to turn around, I think the one aspect that we've seen through COVID, like when COVID first hit, we had all these kind of top-down organizations, control, stick and control cultures all of a sudden jumping on the bandwagon to find tech to be able to monitor what people were doing on their computers and all that sort of stuff. And it's kind of like buying security cameras. You can buy 15 security cameras. When are you going to sit and actually watch it, right?

Good point.

And so, I think at that point, we had all these people being told when they became remote workers, this is what we want you to do and how we want you to do it. But then, as time went on, that became a really dated methodology behind leadership. Because once people were sitting in their own workspace, it's like, okay, I'll listen to you but I'm not gonna— I'll do it my way. And people were, I think, and to your point now about this idea of bringing creativity in, when you have that distance, when you have that remote work and you are, as long as you're delivering on the objective, you're on safe ground. Do you see now that as people are coming back now and being in some cases forced to come back into the office, do you think that that's lending to the level of disengagement and the discontent now in the workforce?

That's a big question as far as coming back to work. So, with respect to the lens of creativity, We know, and Donald Ratner is an architect who wrote a book on this, My Creative Space. We know that people who are able to personalize their workspace are more creative. Like very simple things like putting pictures or a little dinosaur mod, whatever, right? So, I think the benefit of remote working has been like that's amplified your ability to personalize your space and build a space that works for you. And I struggle with the coming back to work because In one sense, I think it depends on the organization. To me, it's not really about working at home or working in the office. It's really about the culture of the organization. Are they allowing people the space and time to be creative? And to your point about the video, and this is what's killing creativity, is expecting people to be productive every minute of every day. And if they're not doing something like checking email or calling a client, that it's not useful work. And with AI and with the advent of all of the technology that we have, Our leaders and managers need to catch up and use those tools to leverage, not to fill our employees' day with more stuff but to free up sometimes. Like, wasn't that what computers were supposed to do? Oh look, we've got computers. We're going to be able to sit around and eat bonbons all day, right? That was how they sold it.

I'm still mad at Popular Mechanics because in 1976, I still had that one edition talking about the advent of computers and how in the new millennium, we will be in the recreation phase of humanity. No more paper. We're going to be all laid back sitting on beaches. The liars.

Exactly. And so, I think it's hard to get out of this mindset of I'm paying someone X dollars per hour. So, every minute costs me this much money. And it's knowing when to let go of that a little bit. And yeah, for sure, there's people who take advantage. But if you want to have new solutions to problems that have plagued you, or you want to stay current and relevant with the pace of things that are happening, you need to give people time to play with chat AI. You need to give people time to play with technology like streaming software so that they can learn if it works or not. I mean, if they don't have time to explore that, then you're just going to keep doing what you've already done. And if that's what you want and those are the results you want, then fill your boots. But If you want new ways to work, you need to really make the time and effort to do that.

But then, don't complain about people not taking initiative or people not solving their own problems and that sort of stuff if that's the culture you've created. I'd love to talk about this idea of divergent and convergent thinking. And I'd like to talk about it right after this.

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Welcome back. I am speaking with the creative catalyst, Dr. Caroline Brookfield. Caroline, you mentioned something. You hinted to something. And even in your introduction, there was a hint into this, actually the answer to this question. But what do you think are holding people back from being more creative or even perceiving themselves as being more creative?

Well, I think number one is self-perception or this identity within a group. So, When I came to vet clinics and I had an online jewelry business, I was embarrassed to tell people because I think they would think, why does a vet have jewelry? Like, that's so weird and random. Because it didn't fit what I expected and other people expected a veterinarian should be. I mean, maybe I do flyball, that makes sense. Or maybe I do something else animal-related, but it was outside of the stamp that the box that society has created. And I think that's one of the things that holds us back because we fear judgment. And we fear judgment like— not only do we fear judgment, we also fear not being included or belonging with our group. And in order to belong to our group, we have to look and act and do what our group does. And that's historical because we feel judgment like actual physical pain. When someone is criticizing us, we actually have the sensation of pain. And that was because at one point, if we got excluded from our group of people, we got eaten by a tiger or we starved or froze to death. And so, we just haven't— it's this outdated operating system that hasn't adapted quickly enough to the pace of change that's happened in our world.

Well, I grew up thinking I was the least creative person on the planet. And I can actually stem it back to elementary school. where my dinosaur sucked and everybody else's was better. And they're not because I said it sucked. It's because everybody came to tell me how much my dinosaur sucked. And it's like, I can't do this.

I suck.

I don't think you're alone. I think we've all had— mine was ventriloquism. So, I could play piano like I'd taken piano lessons all the way along. We had this talent day in grade 2 and I decided I was going to try ventriloquism on like a Sunday night. And I was like, grade 2, what do I know? And I remember, and I think up to that point, I was fairly clueless about what people's opinions were of what I did, right? And I remember sitting there with my Cabbage Patch doll, Pierrette, and doing my terrible ventriloquism act and looking up and seeing the looks of shock and horror on my teacher's face and all the other students. And I remember thinking, oh, like it matters. what people think about what I do. And I think we've all had an experience as a kid where our creativity has been squashed or we felt that sting of judgment, whether it's implied or spoken out loud. And it really does stop us from thinking we're capable of doing things. And whether that's art, maybe you're not very good at art, probably, right? But I know that you do performance and you act in plays and your art is different than what it's defined by what we learn in school.

Right. And to your point, I mean, we evolved with that culture of judgment and that culture of feedback that was never positive. I mean, I remember growing up again being the butt end of the baby boomers. I remember the carrot and the sticking thing. And I remember when you did something wrong, oh my goodness, did you know about it. And so yeah, you create this environment where you no longer want to take the risk to stand out. I can't tell you how many times I'll be sitting in a meeting and it's like, oh, I should bring up this idea. And then other people are talking. It's like, ah, never mind. And it's like, what just happened?

Yeah, exactly. We're conditioned. And when I talk to educators, I always say there should be like different marks like A, B. There should be an M for maybe because we don't teach kids how to be comfortable with multiple possibilities and multiple answers. Like, life is not a right or wrong event. It's lots of maybes. So, I think you're right. I think we've been so conditioned to be in a culture of, am I right? I'm like that when I go to a presentation or a workshop and they give you an instruction to do something. And if I don't hear it or understand it properly, I have anxiety. I'm like, what am I supposed to do? And it's something like, doesn't matter. It's my own personal reflection in an article. Like, but they'll say, you know, reflect on a time that you were happy or something. And then, I missed something and I'm like, am I supposed to do it when I was happy at work? I'm happy at home.

Or really happy or just medium happy or just like giggly?

And it doesn't matter, right? It doesn't really matter. But you want— we're so conditioned to make sure we're doing what's expected of us and not fail.

And again—

But the problem is there is no standard anymore. Nobody knows what the right answer is. So, there is no achievement because maybe it's right. Maybe it's not. Who knows?

Yeah, yeah.

But you know, and I do blame the education system for a lot of that. I mean, I was a terrible math student. I was told how wrong I was so many times. And so, we weren't allowed to fail forward in school because you didn't fail and then say, oh, okay. So now, we know what you don't understand. Let's work on that a little bit. It was, let me teach you a whole bunch of stuff And then, I'm going to give you a test. And then, when you failed it, there was no going back to it to see how can I get better.

Well, and to your point, like instead of celebrating your skills in whatever other subjects, it's like, yeah, yeah, you did okay in those. But you did really bad in this one. Where we should be doing the opposite saying, okay, how can we make sure you've got like the minimum skill level you need for math? Or maybe also teach you in a way that works for you. And there's a whole other conversation about that. But celebrating your strengths and we can't be good at everything.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We could probably go on for ages just talking about the fear of failure aspect of creativity. But let's talk a little bit about the divergent and convergent thinking. What are they and what role do they play, do you think, in today's topic of exuding creativity?

Right. And this to me is the low-hanging fruit of creativity. Like if you take one thing away from our talk together, Marc, this would be the one because people do this. You just mentioned it. You're sitting in a meeting and you don't share your idea. So, divergent and convergent by definition. So, divergent is imaginative thinking. Like there are many different answers. How could I get a unicorn to the moon? Maybe I put them in a spaceship. Maybe I give them special powers. So, there are many different answers. Convergent thinking, conversely, is what people don't think about with creativity, which is just as important. And that is filtering, analyzing, and criticizing that idea to come with one solution. For instance, if you're writing a poem, the things that you're trying to— the theme you're trying to think of is a divergent theme, divergent thinking. But finding that one exact word that goes at the end of a sentence that's just perfect, that is convergent. So, there's divergent and converging. Dr. George Land, who is a famous researcher in this domain who worked for NASA, he calls it the gas and the brake. So, divergent is the gas that takes you on a road trip to anywhere you want to go. The sky's the limit. Or convergent is the brake, stops you from hitting grandma in the crosswalk, which is also very, very important. The problem is, Marc, do you ever— do you know what a brake stand is or a burnout? No.

Yes.

So, what is it? Tell me what it is.

That's where you keep your foot on the brake and you hit the gas and you get the wheels going just barely, just enough to turn them to burn the rubber and keep the car in space, in the same space.

Exactly. So, is that getting you anywhere?

No.

No.

But it can look cool.

It's fun. Not very effective though.

No.

Makes a lot of noise. Smells really bad. And that's what happens is what the biggest challenge that people do is that they try to do diverging and converging at the same time. So, if you're thinking about an idea that sounds a little bit off the wall, you're going to say, oh, maybe that's not a good idea. I'm not going to share that. That's criticizing your idea before you've had a chance to express it and work on it. So, when you're thinking of new ideas, you have to be fully immersed in that divergent mode. Think of the new ideas and don't criticize them. Allow your brain to wander. And whether you're doing it on yourself, in a group. And then, once you've kind of finished that divergent thinking, then you can go into convergent mode. But if you try to do it at the same time, you will not get helpful or good ideas. And because the problem is you can think of some ideas. And usually, if you don't follow a process like a creative problem-solving framework or divergent or design thinking type of framework, you only get to like subpar improvements on a really not very interesting idea. But to break through that and to get to the really disruptive ideas, you have to allow those bad ideas to percolate and generate other ideas to get to that idea that changes everything.

And to your point, I do a lot of design thinking workshops towards the idea of creating experiences and that sort of thing. And to your point, when you're sitting around a boardroom and people say, okay, well, what does everybody think? So then, people just kind of just mull up because they're afraid to say something that might make them look stupid. And so, part of the challenge is we need to create safer spaces for people to be able to, what's my first thought on this? Without being judged, oh well, that's stupid. And so, I love the idea of design thinking workshops where you give everybody Post-it notes. And it's like, just write down your first thought. It doesn't matter what it is. Just write it down. Because sometimes, you need to get to that failure to seed new ideas. And a lot of times, I don't know if it's because maybe people are just thinking, well, we don't have time. But the quality of the feedback and the quality of the stuff that we get when we allow people just to vomit through all their ideas and their thoughts and then filter out what's good, what's not good, can be a real catalyst for change.

Absolutely, because someone's terrible idea might give someone else an idea that could change everything.

Yeah.

And it feels unproductive. It feels like a waste of time. Why are we talking about getting unicorns to the moon? We're really trying to deliver a product on time for our customers.

Yep.

So, but maybe thinking about unicorns and the moon, we'll think about a new technology. You just don't even know until you allow the space and time to explore those thoughts. And a good point about brainstorming, what you're alluding to, Marc, is that it's also important to honor different different techniques. Like some people prefer to create alone. So, saying, okay, well, I need a few minutes on this. And some people are like, I really want to collaborate in a team. The typical, the most creative person in the room or the boss is at the whiteboard writing down all the ideas. It's a terrible way because even subconsciously, you're creating that filter and people are not going to express the ideas that could change everything. And as much as probably with your design thinking workshops, it's important to use specific techniques that can help to amplify those ideas. There are so many different ways to help take people who are not used to a creative problem-solving framework and forcing them to think of things in a new way that helps to create new ideas. But it takes time. Yeah.

In my book, I talk about the theory, the improv theory of yes, and. I'm a firm believer that whenever you use the word but, you just erased everything that happened before it. And the word but Creates a reason, gives you the permission to give excuses rather than to move forward. And yes, and is a lot more proactive and a lot more empowering than the but statements that follow.

Absolutely. Yes, and.

Yes, and. We've in past episodes, we talked a lot about failing forward. And I talk to leaders all the time and it's like, but I can't afford for people to fail. Because it might cost me more money. It might cost us time. It might cost us resources. How can leaders support failing forward when it comes to the cost factor?

Yeah, that's a difficult one to hang a number on. I think what some companies will do that you've probably talked about or heard about is give a certain percentage of people's time where they can work on a project that interests them or something that's maybe not directly related to their work. So, Google and 3M are both known for doing this with their workforce. Also, I think what helps me personally about failing forward is really looking at the risk mitigation. So, one of the things I might do if I go skiing and I'm on a double black run and I think I might fall. Well, am I going to die? Like, what's the downside here? And what is the likelihood That the failure is going to cause this catastrophic event. In which case, maybe you make that a smaller project or you make it not quite as large of a scope as what it had because it doesn't have to be all or nothing. It's about managing the risk and deciding where you can allow people to play and where that red line needs to be so that you're not letting people wander off and doing expensive projects with no results, which obviously is detrimental to especially a small business.

I always had a theory with my staff. It was, as long as nobody gets hurt and nobody dies, let's try stuff. When we talk about this though, like I know a lot of leaders, especially in my generation, are very much, do it my way. If I want you to jump, don't ask me why. Ask me how high. By giving leaders permission to be more open about this stuff, are we talking about weakening our stance as a leader or compromising standards?

Well, I don't think so. I mean, in the generation you're talking about, maybe that would be their perception because again, we're talking about these boxes. A leader in an organization of a certain age needs to act and behave a certain way.

Right.

And so, when they go outside of that framework, it's very uncomfortable because not only do they feel like they're doing it wrong because everybody else must know what they're doing, they're also worrying about the judgment from their peers. So, I think it's for them, as much as they might not want to admit it, a lot of it is stepping outside of the expectations that are placed on them for their generation and career. But they call it other stuff like, oh well, I can't because that doesn't work. But really, I think a lot of it comes down for these leaders as well, a fear of judgment and a fear of being perceived as weak. But we do know, I mean, I'm a big fan of Brené Brown's work. We know that leaders that show vulnerability, that help to engage their team especially. And maybe that worked for that generation for when they were being managed by other managers. Maybe that worked for them. But for the Gen Zs and the Millennials, it does not work. They don't want to be held under somebody's thumb. And nor should they be. It didn't work for any generation. It's just that also the type of work was different. So, it was more process-driven, widget sticking in box things. And now, we have that intelligence economy and you can't productivize, which I know it isn't a word, around human intelligence and human creativity. There's no—

Right.

format. It's not an assembly line. So, to get back to your question about does it make them weaker? No, it makes them stronger. But they feel weaker because they're doing something other than what they think they should do as a leader.

Yes, yeah. And it's funny. I just had a conversation about a nonprofit group that's struggling with their membership right now. And they have a lot of these older members who are, this is the way we've always done it. And I don't see what— but yet, everybody's screaming, oh, we want the younger generation. We want the new generation to come into our organization to make, right? And you've always got this catalyst of this battle going on that is, yes, I want to do it. But I don't have the skills to make that happen. If somebody is listening to this and thinking, boy, I need to talk to Caroline, how can people get a hold of you?

I love carrier pigeons. But I haven't got one yet. Especially not in Alberta in the wintertime, right, Marc? I have a website. My website is my name, carolinebrookfield.com. I'm quite active on LinkedIn. My email is just hello@carolinebrookfield.com. So yeah, I'd love to talk to anybody who has the interest and the desire and just doesn't really know how to proceed with these skills. That's what I do.

Fantastic!

I do speaking as well as workshops and fun interactive experiences as well.

Fantastic! You know, it seems what we're talking about today is really becoming more intentional about the relationships I think that we have with our employees and our teams. Do you have any tips on how maybe somebody could get started with trying to create this culture that would be more conducive to letting people create within their zones of genius?

Yeah, I think number one is lead by example. So, to your point about leaders who feel like they have to micromanage everything, show that it's okay for you to fail in small things. Show that you're exploring a fishing company that found a new way to improve their supply chain, which is completely outside of your zone. Lead by example is number one. And then number 2, allowing, making time for people to learn these skills. And I have a book that talks about the 5 habits to engage creative mindset because we all are creative. It is a human evolutionary elemental gift. And we've kind of forgotten how to tie into that. So, these habits are things that you can do every day to help amplify your own creative mindset, whatever that looks like.

Fantastic! It's really interesting, the whole basis of making that switch because I think people create, I think, an imagination in their mind that if I change the culture of my organization, we're going to crash and burn and it just won't work. But what you're talking about is you can do this incrementally. It doesn't have to be a whole big, oh my God, we're going to shift everything now and make magic. We can do it in small little increments. I'd love to talk a little bit about some cautionaries about people wanting to make a change within their environment. And we'll get to that right after this.

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Welcome back! As you can tell, Dr. Brookfield and I are passionate about helping entrepreneurs and business managers just like you. If you belong to an industry association or an organization that is planning a conference or a leadership retreat, And you feel that we could be of service, feel free to drop us a line or do a connection request. Our details are in the show notes. Carolyn, for people who are like, oh my God, yeah, no, I can see where I'm going. I really need to do something now. And they make it the kind of project of the month. Do you have any cautionaries for people who might want to start opening up their culture towards becoming more creative and more brave in failing forward?

Yeah, I think it's really hard. It's a hard change to make, especially if you're in that culture of top-down micromanaging. But I think starting with yourself and maybe make a daily practice of thinking about what are the things that you're going to allow to let go today, if that's a new thing for you. And how can you create some time in your day or in your team's day to make some space? Like, make it a habit of allowing space in the day even if you haven't filled it with anything specific or any strategic activities yet. Just being okay with having 10 minutes of downtime where people can stare out the window. Making time for that creativity to fill up that space is really important. I would say that's one thing. Another thing that is really important is for people to understand how we respond to uncertainty. So, when we feel uncertain, we're no different than a mouse or a tiger or another animal. We do what has always worked. Like if I'm a mouse and I want to grab a piece of cheese from the middle of a room, I'm not going to start doing pirouettes and dancing and jumping around through the middle of the room. Because I would die, right? Like thousands, millions of generations before me have gone really fast along the edge of the baseboards or wherever they do. And when they're feeling uncertain, if there's like, is there a cat around? Am I going to get eaten? They're not going to start doing something different. It's evolutionary. So, when we are faced with uncertainty or ambiguity, we default to status quo solutions. And we don't do it on purpose. We don't think about it. But that's That's our response to uncertainty. So, I think one of the things that is helpful is to be mindful that if you're trying to change a culture, that's a threat. That's ambiguous. It's uncertain. And we treat that as a threat response. And in order to manage that threat response, we need to stop and we need to be— that's where mindfulness really helps. Just be present in the moment and not try to catastrophize about the future or think about what could happen in some cases because that stifles our ability to Think creatively and think differently. I'm not hearing you, Marc. I don't know if you— is that you?

Yep, I'm sorry about that. Yeah, I don't know why that happened. But to your point, the 20% time was the catalyst for being able to set a small amount of time over to say, it doesn't matter. We can play. We can explore. We can do it. So, to your point, that kind of conquered this idea of the status quo thinking. Yes, we're in the middle of a crisis. But we've set aside this 20% time so that we're 15% time that you can do something that, you know, that's what we want you to focus on in that time. So, because again, if you're in the middle of uncertainty or ambiguity as to what the future is going to hold, This is a good time to get more creative than to do the same thing over and over again.

Yeah, and it feels like we reconcile the discomfort of ambiguity with action. So, we can act. We can get angry. We can withdraw. But a lot of times, action feels good because it feels like we're doing something. So, it feels productive when it might not be the right thing at all. So, I like your reference back to that 20% time because then, it's that clear expectation. You're like, what's George doing today? Like, what the heck has that got to do? You know what? I told him 20%. This is why we do this. And probably most of the time, George's ideas are terrible and they won't go anywhere. But that one time it does, it could change absolutely everything.

Yeah, the remote, the whole argument between remote and in-person workspaces and that sort of thing. The one thing I do see that lacked, that fell off very quickly was those kind of collisions, creative collisions that happened around water coolers and while you're getting coffee and that sort of stuff. I thought we missed out on that. Some people said, oh, I'm much more productive now at home doing the work. Well, because you're not being interrupted by these little conversations. How does one, do you think, adapt some of the Creative collision space when you do have a hybrid or a remote working thing. How can leaders start thinking a little bit better about that?

Well, it's funny you bring that up because some people have said that people are more creative without those cooler conversations because they're not being interrupted. But let's have a scenario, Marc. We're in an organization that makes widgets for car manufacturing. And I'm colliding with someone from marketing of those widgets. And I'm an engineer for those widgets. I mean, yeah, creativity can happen. But at home, I can connect with someone in India who's making parts for toy trains. And the creativity that can happen there, or talking to someone who's a conductor in an orchestra might actually give you more creative ideas than bumping up against your colleagues because we need cross-pollination and we need diverse viewpoints. That's why DEI is so important. Aside from the fact that it's the right thing to do, It's helpful for creativity. You have the same people sitting around a table with the same ideas. Like, how boring is that? And there's really not a lot of chance for creativity. But with multiple points of view and skill sets and experience, you actually amplify creativity. And I think being at home could be actually a better environment to do that if it's done with intention.

I love that. And I think it's to your point. It's done with intention but it also has to be done with permission. That the leaders can reach out to people and say, don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to reach out to LinkedIn groups or online groups about certain things. Right.

And maybe it's about setting parameters around that. Like, I'm okay if you spend 30 minutes a day watching funny cat videos and reaching out to producers of those videos to get tips on how to do better marketing or whatever the case, right? And then, it's a framework. Then, people are like, okay, this is my 30 minutes to play. The leaders are happier because it's not like they're feeling like they have to watch their employees 8 hours a day. And it gives them that space to play with permission like you said.

Yeah, this has been a fabulous discussion, Caroline. Again, thank you enough for taking time out to be with us today. Do you have any last thoughts about what we're talking about today?

Well, I think to the point of diverging and converging separately, I'd like to end with the words attributed to Ernest Hemingway. Who knew he was a budding neuroscientist when he said, write drunk, edit sober. So, when you're writing or when you're creating, no rules. Allow yourself to create. And when you're editing and like evaluating those ideas, that's the time to knuckle down and get down to brass tacks, so to speak.

And it's 2 separate hats, isn't it? It really is to your point. It's 2 separate hats that you're putting on to be able to do your problem solving. I love that. Thank you so much.

You don't have to drink. But the idea is—

You don't have to drink. But yeah, and I tell people, play at work. When I get into new environments, I'll talk to people and go, oh, where are you playing today? And they look at me and go, playing? Well, aren't you having fun with what you're doing? Let's have some fun. Caroline, I want to thank you so much for sharing your passion and expertise with us today. Could you just remind everybody one more time how they can get a hold of you?

Thanks, Marc. I still am focused on this carrier pigeon. So, if I get a carrier pigeon in February in Alberta, I'll be thrilled. Otherwise, it's hello@carolinebrookfield.com. That's my website. And I'm very active here on LinkedIn as well. So, get creative. Find a different way to contact me. It'd be exciting.

Love it. Thank you very much, Caroline. This has been brilliant.

Thank you so much, Marc. It's always a pleasure to hang out with you.

Why don't you let me know if this was of value to you? As always, my offer stands. If you would like 30 minutes of my time to brainstorm your business with you and your team, feel free to book yourself on my online calendar. The link is in the show notes. It's the one that's marked meetwith.marchaine.com. It would be my absolute honor to be of service to you. And why don't you go ahead and why don't you leave a review or a comment About this episode. I'd love to know your feedback. And of course, if you're on YouTube, if you're on other platforms, make sure that you subscribe to this podcast. I'd love to connect with you more and more in the future. And please remember to follow the hashtag #ExperienceLeadership. My name is Marc Haine. I hope that you stay safe, stay healthy, and I hope you dare to be the exception.