8 Principles That Help Entrepreneurs Outlast the Competition with Dr. Neri Karra Sillaman

What if the reason your business is struggling isn't because of your competition but because you're chasing the wrong definition of success? Maybe it's time to flip the script on how we think about growth, longevity, and impact. And that's what we're talking about today on Experience Leadership.

Welcome to Experience Leadership, A podcast that challenges small business owners and entrepreneurs just like you to dare to be the exception. Join our host, customer experience expert Marc Haine, as he uncovers relevant and timely content to help you script and direct your business and teams to create jaw-dropping experiences your customers and staff deserve. Here is the host of Experience Leadership, author of Lights! Camera! Action!, customer experience expert Marc Haine.

Welcome to this episode of Experience Leadership. I am your host, Customer and Employee Experience Strategist Marc Haine. And I am thrilled that you're here with me today because my guest today is Dr. Neera Kara-Silliman. And today, we're diving into what it really takes to build a business that lasts. Not just in profits but in purpose, in impact, and in integrity. From turning rejection into opportunity to redefining what success even means, this is one conversation that you're going to want to lean in for. I do have one simple request though. If there's somebody in your circle who could benefit from the insights that we're sharing with you today, please do them a favor and And pass along the link to this episode. And please make sure you subscribe to this podcast. I'd really love to get to 5,000 subscribers. So, if you haven't done so yet, please make sure you subscribe to this podcast and encourage your friends to too. You know, we've been told for decades that if a business is profitable, it's going to be successful. Full stop. But here's the catch. Most of those success stories really do fizzle out within a few years. Or even worse, they implode under the weight of unethical decisions and broken values. So maybe it's time to stop asking, how do I grow fast? And start asking, what am I actually building? And will it matter 10 years from now? That brings us to Our Question of the Day. So, if your business disappeared tomorrow, who would miss it? Would your customers? Why? I'd love for you to be part of this conversation. Go ahead and share a link to this episode on your favorite social media platform. Hashtag it #ExperienceLeadership because we'd really love to hear from I'd really love to hear some of your experiences and I'd love to make you part of that conversation. As I mentioned, my guest today is an award-winning entrepreneur, Cambridge PhD, and a trusted researcher in the field of immigrant entrepreneurship, Dr. Niri Kara-Silliman. She started her first business as a teenage refugee armed with zero capital, big dreams, and a desire to serve other people. Today, she runs an international luxury brand that supplies global fashion houses like Prada and Miu Miu. Did I pronounce that right? Is it Miu Miu?

Miu Miu.

Miu Miu, okay. She also is the author of Pioneers: 8 Principles of Business Longevity from Immigrant Entrepreneurs, which blends real-world research and her personal journey to redefine what it means to build businesses that last. Dr. Niri, it's an absolute pleasure to have you here today.

Thank you, Marc. Thank you for the invitation.

So, let's start off by talking a little bit about Who do you serve? Who's your customer base and how do you serve them?

So, our customers initially were people who were very much like us. They were all distributors who were from the former Soviet republics and were searching to build a better life for themselves. So, that was our very first customer base. And this is B2B business in, you know, in the in that sense. Today, we still have— obviously, we still have our own brand. But about how many years ago now, maybe more than 10 years ago, we also started manufacturing for other luxury brands as well. Our factory is based in Istanbul. And we have exceptional craftsmanship. And that's how we started to produce and partner with Italian luxury labels.

Wow. So this is world-class. This is, this is, this is not like some back office shop.

No. So this is very funny. I used to, you know, I think it's from my culture a little bit. We don't like to talk about our successes. Like you have to be humble. You can't say you've done this, you've done that. So I used to say it in a very subtle way. And then Dori Clark said to me, Neri, you need to say this is a multimillion dollar business. You need to have some sort of number in there because people are going to think, you know, not to offend anyone who has an Etsy shop, but they might think you have a, you know, tiny little, you do it out of your bedroom.

Yeah, or your kitchen table.

Exactly. So yes, it's a business. We employ 175 people in our factory only. We have operations in Bulgaria. where it's about, it's more connected to our online operations and also the metal accessories production. Part of it is also done in Bulgaria as well because they have a very high-end technical metal production.

Wow.

So, and of course we come from Bulgaria originally.

Yeah.

So that's the reason.

But I mean, you didn't start off and decide one day, oh, let's open up a multimillion-dollar operation. Let's talk a little bit about your journey. What brought you into entrepreneurship?

Well, it was like today in the immigrant entrepreneurship literature, they quite often talk about necessity entrepreneurship. We became entrepreneurs, and I say we because I will not necessarily call myself, I am the entrepreneur, I am the one who created this, because this is a family business. It started because of necessity. We were refugees. My parents were selling the leather products of a different brand based in Turkey and making commission out of it. And we wanted to create a better life for ourselves. I went to university and had the idea to write the business plan of our brand that became Neri Kara. Came back to Turkey after graduating from university and basically told my parents, we can go to the Italian suppliers that we know of and ask them to buy, or they can give it to us if they were discarding those leather skins because they will have a small defect on them or it will be out of season. So they can give it to us. And with that leather skin, we created our very first collection, which was mobile phone covers, tiny little, you know, like card holders. And it started off very, very small and then it grew from there.

It's interesting because, you know, ultimately it started off with an idea. You did not even fathom that you would be at some point going into high-end leather goods around the world?

Actually, we did.

Oh, you did?

Okay.

Tell us a little bit about that. What did that image look like?

I mean, even with my dad, I asked him the same question because, as I said, this is a family business. I asked him, did you know that— well, when I was— I actually did a talk at University of Miami and I put up on the screen. We had English communication class and in that class they will teach you how to write an email. I mean, this is 1996, '97.

Right.

So how to write an email, how to write. And I wrote that my name is Neri Kara. My CEO is called Helen Brown. I have a luxury leather production facility, luxury leather goods brand, and we are producing— no, our direct competitor, I wrote, is Gucci and Prada. And a few years later, when we— that's why in the book I talk about create from the future back.

Yes.

You have to have a crazy idea. You have to have a vision, and that maybe comes from my background, but I used to have a math teacher in my high school who would say to me, if you want to reach the star, you have to aim for the moon. And this has been something that has guided me in my life. I mean, I never start something thinking I want to graduate, I want to graduate with a 4.0 GPA. And I may reach 3.5, but I still aim for the 4.0. So, with the business, we had that vision. We didn't want to create something that will simply sustain our family for a few years. You know, this is an industry. We know the key players. And in order for you to become one of the key players, there are certain elements that need to happen. But we never really thought small. I have to be honest with you.

So, how did you uncover that? Because, I mean, it's one thing to think, yes, you know, we want to be a luxury brand. So just out of curiosity, how long has your business been in service?

More than 25 years.

25 years.

More than 25 years.

So 25 years ago, it's fine to turn around and say, I have this big dream of what I want to create. But how many people get caught up in this idea but then the reality hits because they didn't understand all the rules? And because of that, they've had to make concessions. They've had to You know, maybe they didn't get funding, maybe they didn't get bylaw approval to be able to build the factory, or, you know, it seems like there are a lot of people who don't go as far as you because of all the obstacles that get in the way. And at some point they just go, okay, that's it.

We hit obstacles too, many times. I mean, the very first obstacle is we created our very first collection. And this is me very naive. How old was I at the time? 20. 20, thinking we are going to reach to the very first distributor with our first collection. This is Italian leather, very high-end. This is a product that doesn't exist in the market. He's a distributor that worked— who worked with my father, with my parents for many, many years prior to, you know, our new idea, new brand. He's going to say yes, and Actually, we had the first meeting with him. We flew to Moscow. He sat down with us and he said, no, nobody knows who Neri Caro is or what Neri Caro is. So there you are. Like, that was my first step in my business plan that this, you know, step A will happen, which will lead to step B. But then you have to look for step C and D. You have to start looking for other options.

Yeah.

You can't let the obstacle make you think this is the end because there is— I don't believe in such a thing as an end or a final step or— there is always a way around. There is always a solution. And with us as well, many times there was the Russian ruble that devalued. Distributors had left us. Distributors didn't want to carry our brand. And then in 2008, there was the recession that happened and that hit us. And let's not forget Russia and Ukraine war. Our biggest market was in Russia and Ukraine. So it is— we've had nobody who is an entrepreneur who can say being an entrepreneur is an easy path.

There you go.

We face obstacles all the time. But for example, how we work around those, in 2008, we had to sit down and this is where my academic brain comes in because I have to really look at the business. And yes, we are talking, we are so focused on building Neri Cara, the brand itself, which takes a lot of money. By the way, you always have to keep investing. But then when you strip away everything and you look at what is one thing that you do uniquely, one thing that only belongs to you, only, let's say, belongs to Marc Haine, that if you were left on a remote island and you have to fend for yourself, what would you do? And for us, the response, the reply was our manufacturing.

Hmm.

This is one thing that we are exceptional at. And that's when we reached out to luxury brands who had reached out to— who had reached to us about 5, 7 years ago. But at the time, we were so focused on our own brand, we weren't ready. Yeah. And now it was time.

I love, I love, you know, you bring up a really good point, this whole idea of doing one thing really, really well, because I do find that the propensity is to run around and kind of chase kind of the silver ball, the next shiny object, right? That is like, oh, we're saying, you know, my competitors are doing this, so I better do this. And so because of that, they tend to lack focus. So is that what's hurting business longevity? Is that one of the conditions that hurts business longevity, is that we don't have a really solid definition of what we do really well?

I think in the book I talk, I have this quote. It's by the founder of Wandery. He says, because he worked internationally, he says, working internationally, you get to read tomorrow's newspaper today. I think one of the elements, there's many, many challenges to longevity, but one of them is that you are, you need to really always be 5 steps ahead. You really need to know the tomorrow today and be able to adapt your business fast enough, make the decisions fast enough. But those decisions, like you said, that will be true to you. You can't really look at what the competitor is doing. You can't really say, oh, XYZ is now investing in this, so I better do the same thing. They must know something I don't. So, these are the things that can really hurt the business. Another one is growing very fast, which is something that you also mentioned in the beginning of our conversation. I think today everyone seems to want to expand, invest, grow fast, go into new markets, sell very fast. And unfortunately, this type of thing, I've seen it again and again. I've even seen it in our own business. When we have grown too fast, too quickly, we have always faced consequences of it. So, there are many elements, of course.

It's funny. I use the example of a cookie manufacturing fast food operation called Felix and Norton that was here in Canada for a while. It was Montreal specifically. And they grew— somebody had a unique recipe for a cookie. It was delicious. People loved it and they went into the franchising space and within 5 years, they expanded to like over 250 stores all over the place and they were in every single mall. You just couldn't get away from it. But because it was so available, like any— too much of anything good, at some point, people got sick of it.

Yeah.

And they stopped coming and then they tried to do things like gift baskets and coffee and And they tried to divert, but they really couldn't hold on to the core of what made them great was they made these really amazing cookies, cookies that people would've driven out of their way for, but they made it way too available. And so that's a sign that again is one of the outfalls of expanding too fast, chasing after the fast buck. So what warning signs should founders look for that maybe they're chasing the wrong goal?

I think, well, those are, if this is not really, if it's hurting your business, that's one of the very first signs that you can see. But I think something that you just said is so accurate, staying true to your values.

Hmm.

I want to add something to this. I was nodding when you were giving this example because it's very, directly relates to an example in my book. I talk about Dominique Ansel. He's the creator of Cronut, and it became so successful. It's like what put him on the map and made him a household name and made his business very successful. He was approached by a company that will make Cronut become a household. It will be everywhere. It will be in supermarkets. It will be It will allow him to become. I mean, he already is, but like multi multi millionaire. It was a great deal. It's a no brainer for him to sign that, but he said no. And instead, but he has he expanded into Japan, but he said no to this mass production. And even though it will bring him in the short term money much much, but. I think he said, that's not why I started the business, when I asked him. I have to stay true to my value and the intention of why I started the business. I don't want to be everywhere. That's not what my business is about. So, I think there will be warning signs like you mentioned. I mean, I think as entrepreneurs, you always can see the warning signs and there is a difference between a warning sign that you are in the wrong direction versus you just know that you have to— you may have rejection and obstacle, but you just know that's a temporary obstacle. You know that you have to keep going. So, I think we as entrepreneurs, we have that instinct and it doesn't even mean— I'm not even going to say, look at your profitability because There will be times when the profitability will be lower and the reason will be different. But if consistently for 6, 7 years your product hasn't been selling and you've been going out to investors to raise money, that's a warning sign right there. Because again, if your product is not selling, you need to ask yourself why that is.

It's interesting because I do know business operators who will blame— they blame all the external forces, right?

They—

Yeah.

I live in a small community of 5,800 people, and when I talk to a, let's say, a restaurateur here in town, and I say, so how are things going? They're like, oh, you know, we're a small town, it's not that good. And I said, well, why isn't it that good? Oh, well, you know, 5,800 people, we don't have enough. And I point out that we, within a 25-minute commute, we have 125,000 people. And so if we build a restaurant that people would wanna travel for, and he's like, oh, nobody's gonna travel 25 minutes for a meal. Right? And so we have this mindset thing of how we interpret data. And then all we do is like, when we hear pieces of information is like, oh, we have to conquer the information because it's not fitting my model. It doesn't fit what I have up in my brain.

Yeah.

I want to blame everything else. And so, so what goes on? What goes on in that entrepreneurial vision? Because something happened to you that is different. Your mindset was different with all these other obstacles where other businesses would just turn around and they just go, it's not my fault. It's everything else but not me.

I think this is something, you know, we talked about before we got on the call about leadership. I think one of the mistakes I've seen in my own family, in my own business, like, it's sometimes you can be too close to the business, in my opinion.

Mm-hmm.

And you are so close to the business that you just, you take it very personally. You have been building this like a baby, and then things are not working. And it's very, very hard to stop and say, Let me see why. Because it's personal. So you will blame everyone else and all the conditions, but except look at the, you know, I don't want to call it problem, but look at what's in front of you. So I think one aspect of leadership is to be able to take a step back Be very objective in what you are. And it's very hard to do, especially in entrepreneurship.

I joke because there's a saying that says, you can't see the label if you're inside the jar.

I like that.

And so, I believe you need to bring people from outside to come in and surround ourselves with people who are going to be honest with us. Right? So that we can get out of our own ego and our own head and our own pride. Because I've dealt with hotel operators. I've been in business for 20, 25 years. I've been doing the same thing. I don't understand why it doesn't work anymore. Well, because the world changed.

You have more competition.

Exactly. People have different demands. They have different expectations. And if you haven't done anything different in the last 25 years, it's no wonder you're failing.

And you know, even if they bring outsiders, even even if people they people from their own company will tell them what is wrong or you know ring the alarm bell, it still takes humility. Not even humility. Not always the person will listen.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Because you don't know what you're talking about. I've been in this business for twenty years. You you have no idea what I'm talking about.

Yes. So exactly. So I think I talk about him a lot and give him as an example quite often. But Hamdi Ulukaya, when he was building Chobani, he said, I ask people we work with to tell me what is wrong. And that's, that's a really good example of good leadership, to be able to have your door open, have your mind open. And to say, I'm here to listen, and if there is a problem to be solved, I will look at it and let's figure out a solution together. This is really good leadership. And this is, in my opinion, an aspect of longevity because to be able to read tomorrow's newspaper today, you have to have an open mind and an open heart and listen to what Others are telling you.

It forces us to create trustworthiness in our leadership, right? Because we can't— if anybody comes to us and says, hey boss, I think I see a problem, and the boss shuts them down, then they will never come back. And then when the boss turns around and says, okay, it's the end of the month, um, everybody tell me what's wrong, and all you hear are crickets. It's so quiet.

And Marc, what you just said You know, in the book, I also talk a lot about authenticity.

Yeah.

What you just said is, in my opinion, an element of also authenticity.

Sure.

If you say one thing to people, but then turn around and do something else, and to me, you are authentic. But because you have authenticity, you also— there is an element of trust there. I should be able to come to you, I should be able to You know, say an opinion and see if you really meant what you said.

It was really interesting. I've mentioned this story before that I was running a hotel and the owners were away. And I was doing a SWOT analysis of the business because I wanted to find out where can we really leverage the magic we had in our teams and the impressions that people had. And the owners came back and they said, yeah, we hear you're doing this study with the staff and you're talking to the staff about this business. And I go, yeah, yeah, I actually— I met with the dishwasher to talk a little bit about the— to the dishwasher. And he goes, what will a dishwasher tell me about my business? And I said, you don't think that the dishwasher has an idea of where his bottlenecks are? What some of the challenges he has? You know, what chemicals work, what chemicals don't work? The only thing a dishwasher could tell me is when is payday and when he can go for a smoke.

Wow.

And I thought, what? Exactly. That's exactly how I felt. It was like, wow. We have a we have a comment I'd love to put up on the screen. Powerful. Treating the business very closely, you won't be able to see the problem you cause.

It's like very nice.

That is a very good. Olad, Ololad. Thank you very much for the comment.

Ololade Achimbo. Very nice.

Thank you very much for the comment. That's very true, right? Hey, when we come back, I'd like to explore how we could rejig our mindset about success and longevity. And we'll get to that right after this. When the spotlight shines on your business, are customers applauding or yawning? In other words, how is your business performing? Make your business a star with a new book, Lights! Camera! Action!, Business Operational Excellence Through the Lens of Live Theater by Marc Haine. Marc uses his business and acting experience to help you see your business like a live show so you can create a performance your customers will never forget.

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today at your favorite online retailer or directly at marchaine.com. Welcome back! I am here with Neri Kara-Silliman. Why don't you, Neri, why don't you tell us a little bit about your book? I know we've alluded to some of the content in your book. But why don't you give us a little description about what's going on with your book?

So, my book is called Pioneers. I will— ah, you have— you brought it to the screen. Great! It's called Pioneers. 8 Principles of Business Longevity from Immigrant Entrepreneurs. And in the book, I am asking the question that no one has asked until now. Why are immigrant entrepreneurs more likely to create businesses that last? If you look at the literature, everyone talks about why are immigrants more likely to be entrepreneurs, and we all know why. But nobody has made the connection between business longevity and immigrant entrepreneurship until my research and my book. So, in order to do that, I reached out to people who have done exactly that. I've been— today Forbes had an article, America's Wealthiest Billionaires, which I think it's a funny title in some sense. But also it was a statistic that close to 50% of Fortune 500 companies are started by immigrants. And this is a very significant statistic. And in America, only 23% of the population is made by immigrants. So it's, I mean, the statistics are enormous and statistically immigrant-founded businesses last longer. So people I interviewed are founder of PayPal, Duolingo, WhatsApp. You have Google, who is also an immigrant founder. You have Chobani, Dominique Ansel, Dermalogica. The list is endless. And I didn't only focus on America. I wanted to broaden my horizon and also look at other countries, other geographical areas. So you have Middle East, you have UK, But of course, majority of the businesses do come from United States because United States is actually one of the largest country to accept immigrants.

Right.

So, I think the other one is Saudi Arabia, actually.

I wonder from a societal standpoint, as you were talking, it's like it just occurred to me, you know, it takes risk to become an immigrant. It takes—

Oh, yes.

A different kind of mindset, especially, you know, you're a refugee. You were a refugee.

Yeah.

who were like both people from Vietnam whose parents were very, very successful over the period of their careers. And I wonder if it's something to do with having kind of a brave mindset or a courageous mindset because you've had to make the difficult decisions before that really the entrepreneur journey is just another decision.

Yeah, absolutely. And you take a risk. So there is certainly a higher risk-taking There is more propensity to take risk. But also, I say immigration is the ultimate act of reinvention.

Absolutely.

And business longevity, you have to keep adapting, you have to keep reinventing in order for your business to stand the test of time. So there is the connection there between innovation as well. Same thing, immigration is very closely connected to innovation. You have to create something out of nothing. You are not given anything. You know that things are not going to be handed to you.

Mm-hmm.

Things are not going to be easy. You have to create it yourself. So that already— and people who become immigrants, immigration is not a walk in the park. A few days ago, I talked to someone who basically, well, let's say we see the world differently. He said, why are they coming to our country? Why don't they stay in their own country and try to build it there? First of all, usually they run and things are, you know, nobody becomes an immigrant or a refugee because it's easy.

Because it's fun to do. It's like, oh, it's Wednesday, let's become a refugee.

Very difficult. And I think not always it's appreciated the challenges that come from being an immigrant. And then you have to overcome so many barriers. You don't have capital, there is discrimination, you have lost your community during the process of immigration. But because of all of that, when immigrants start to build businesses, they are very much focused and they value each connection that they make.

Hmm.

This is a very important aspect. And the other one is that they are very much focused on value. To them, it's about impact. What impact can I make? What can I do? What can I give to you? And, you know, it's— I say that profit, they don't really go out thinking, I'm going to create a profitable business. They are— maybe that sounded wrong. They are not focused only on profit. They are focused on value, on impact. But because of that, profitability comes to them.

Would it be fair to say that a lot of immigrant entrepreneurs look at how can I support my family?

Of course.

Right?

Of course, they do.

To your point, you know, maybe somebody from a country just, you know, maybe they were in the dry cleaning business. At some point, and then they come to Canada or they come to the US and, you know, you see what the minimum wage is and then like, you know, but I have this skill, why don't I open up a laundry business here? And to your point, because the mindset is, oh, you know, I have to provide for my family, then it's a business thing. Now I have to provide for my employees. Now I have to—

Right.

And, and then it's just seeded, I think, by The pride factor of somebody who does something really, really well.

All of this is true. And also, again, in the literature, they talk about it as necessity entrepreneurship because you have to become an entrepreneur because you have no other choice. You don't— your diploma is not recognized. You don't have the same opportunities provided to, you know, to others. However, again, there are When they are building that business and of course providing for your family, this was also our motivation, by the way, when we started our own business. We wanted a better life for ourselves. But then how will that business stay, you know, in action? How will that business become a player? How will the profit come? So I'm not saying you can't focus on profitability, but Profitability can only come to you if you start thinking of value, of impact, of others.

So, for those poor souls who are born in North America and not an immigrant, would you say that the first mindset for business owners has to be something along the line of, what are my values and what value do I bring to my community, to my world for longevity?

And yes. Another one, I think a very important one that I thought was very obvious among immigrant entrepreneurs is how much community— they value community, how much they value the relationships that they build. And, you know, this was certainly the case in our own business as well. We were— we didn't have any money when we started, but it was because of the relationships that we built with our suppliers, with our employees, with our distributors and how to this day they are everything. This is how our business runs. And I think, yes, this is at the end of the day a business, but I think if you put other people first, kindness, these are the elements that are not necessarily talked about in business books. Of course, we talk about strategy and competitive advantage. And I'm not saying those are not important because I certainly think about them in our own business. But there are other aspects like kinship, altruism, which I studied in my PhD because I thought, why is this not an area studied that much? Because that's how we have built our own business. And when I started to interview even people, you will be surprised, Moderna and Pfizer, BioNTech, and these are, you know, the people who created the COVID vaccine, they are all immigrants. That's the connection there. But I thought BioNTech, the founders are Turkish immigrants in Germany and the CEO of Pfizer is Mr. Bourla, and he's a Greek immigrant. So, you have the Greek and Turkish immigrants and they joke about it. There is friendship among them. And he even, I may have used it in the book as well, he even says, we didn't have a written contract. It was all, we just shook hands on it.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, these are giant companies. It's not a family business.

And again, it's with a different philosophy, right? As opposed to let's protect ourselves from all liability, let's just shake hands, let's just have an agreement, let's get— just move forward and we'll figure the rest out after. You mentioned about not having enough money. Do you believe that constraints actually fuel your level of creativity? Like, was that a major definition how you overcame all these obstacles?

Of course, it's one of the principles, fry in your own oil. In my book, I call it fry in your own oil because it's a saying from my grandfather. It means to be self-sufficient. And I think one of the mistakes that I've seen, especially in the early days of a business, you try to raise money and bring investors on very early, very early on in the business.

Yeah.

And I think that hurts that can hurt the business. When you have constraints, whether that's financial or any other constraints, this really helps you be very focused. You really understand what you are very good at. First of all, you get to hone your capabilities, your resources, and that's when you really can have a business that can stand the test of time. Because you've done it.

When you think about constraints, where does that— part of— I believe that some of the most successful companies, they fail quickly. They fail fast. They learn from it, and they move forward. But with constraints, especially when you have financial constraints, you have the cost of failure added to it. How do entrepreneurs need to adjust that mindset?

I think failure— Amy Edmondson has a fantastic book on this. She's the expert, right kind of wrong. And she actually wrote a testimonial for my book as well.

Okay.

I highly recommend anyone who is interested in failure to read her work because it's exceptional. But failure, it's— I— and she also doesn't advocate that fail early on and fail fast. And because it actually is not something that not all the time businesses can recover from. But you can fail in, let's say, you can have these smaller failures and learn from them and really not repeat them. And also really have a takeaway, what went wrong. And it doesn't even mean the very same thing won't repeat, but then when you are, when the failure happens again, it's not as dramatic. And again, in order for that to happen, we talked about having an openness, having trust. You have to have people in your company who are— you are building this not failure-proof, but I would say learning-friendly business that you can experiment, you can learn, and then apply those lessons later on.

How much of it revolves around luck? You know, I hear like people, oh, he's so lucky, or— but there are lucky moments in businesses. So, how can people learn to spot the lucky moments in their journey? And why do you think this is an important component of these principles we're talking about today?

Yes, it's the 8th principle in my book. I added it as a separate principle because after I've done my interviews, I noticed that every single entrepreneur I interviewed talked about luck. Every single one of them was mentioning it, and I thought, I need to really look into this more. So, when it comes to immigrant entrepreneurs, luck is not something that happens to you. It's not an event, but it's a capability. So, I don't— I'm not going— In that sense, you don't say he's lucky or luck happened, but it's a resource that is in the business. Again, we talked about competitive advantage. You need to be able to recognize when luck happens and be ready to take on that luck. So Dominique Ansel says, I was lucky I moved to New York. I was lucky I met my wife. I was lucky that we created the Cronut, but But those were— this wasn't something that happened out of the blue.

Right.

And it was a resource that they develop. They learn how to be lucky. And they— it's a strategic aspect. There is a strategy to it.

And that luck actually came from consistent action, consistent mindset, and just keep moving forward.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And being in Just I say dare to play your hand. Dare to play your hand.

Yeah.

When something happens, take a chance. You never know. Try it. Like when Dominique Ansel, to keep the same example, he invented the Cronut. His wife suggested, you are French, you know, you have croissant, there is donut American. Why don't you combine the two and see what happens? So, being able to having that, taking that luck, that's why I say it's not this event that happens to you out of the blue, but it's a resource that you develop and that you use.

I would probably challenge that there's a high virtue of curiosity involved.

Oh, yes. Yes, of course. It's not a challenge. You are adding to it.

Yeah. Hey, when we come back, I'd like to talk about some cautionaries and pitfalls. My one fear when I put these podcasts together is that somebody will come up with a good idea and go, great, for the next 30 days we'll do this. But ultimately, when we start doing short-term thinking, we fall into pitfalls. And I'd like to talk about some of those cautionaries. And we'll get to those right after this.

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I am absolutely loving this conversation. I hope you're getting lots of value from it as well. As evident from our discussion today, you can tell that Neri and I are deeply dedicated to supporting business leaders just like you. So, if you're in the midst of planning a leadership retreat or an industry conference and you're looking for some amazing content, or maybe you just need some expert guidance, we're just a message away. Feel free to reach out to us. Have a conversation about your unique challenges or to discuss how we could collaborate to help you achieve your goals. Our link is in our contacts. Our contacts are in the link below. So, Neri, um, for the people tuning in, what, what advice would you give somebody listening right now who's on the edge of giving up?

Well, I don't know. It's, uh, not I don't know, but you have to know that it's not, it's not going to be, it's not easy. It's not, uh, like just like the immigrant entrepreneurs I mentioned, Mm-hmm. Things are not handed to them on a plate. And I'm not saying the person who is on the verge of giving up doesn't know that, but you have to— there can be sometimes also for you to take a step back and really assess why is something not working. And then see what happens. Be able to change your mind, be open to changing your mind, be open to seeing something from a different perspective. And sometimes even giving up for a week or a month can also be able to help you in your direction.

So, don't give up, take a vacation.

Take a small vacation. They call it— what did the— there was— I saw I saw a very funny meme. I think it was Fast Company. They called it a micro vacation, but something funny like that. But yes.

For people listening and tuning in, they want— they know they have to make a change. They know they have to maybe work on mindset. They have to work on the 8 principles you talked about. I would strongly encourage, if you're tuning into this, go and get her book so you understand what those 8 principles are. But cautionaries, what warnings would you give people wanting to instigate a change?

I think saying to— we talked about it a little bit already in our conversation, being too rigid, being too stuck in one's idea. I think I emphasized this earlier as well. You need to be open to other perspectives. Even you bring other people on board, not necessarily consultants, You can ask people in your organization. We talked about the dishwasher. And being able to open your mind to a different perspective, I think this is very important. And being too close to the problem, to being too close to the business, can sometimes blind the entrepreneur.

Yeah. Neri, this has been a great conversation. Do you have any last thoughts about what we've been talking about today?

Last thoughts, I think we have covered quite a lot, I would say. Another one that— one of the things I talked about in the book is cross-cultural bridging, which is connected to what I was just saying, being open to other perspectives. Sometimes one thing that I thought entrepreneurs who are immigrants did very well, they have been able to become a bridge between 2 cultures. Sometimes, if you are able to do that, that can also help you in the business too.

I love that. You know, it's so bad. It's too bad that in the United States, DEI has become synonymous with affirmative action. And with all the talk and the rhetoric about how they're viewing DEI now, I think it's done a real disservice to this idea that we can bring diversity into our businesses, diversity of cultures, Diversity of thought, diversity of ideas, and we're shutting all that down based on a perception. But really, that's a key to— that's a magical superpower, I think, for most businesses.

Absolutely. In fact, Marc, if you look at most businesses, they were able to create a business because they were looking at it from a different perspective, because they come from a different culture. Now that they are in a new culture, I just gave you Cronut as an example. Hamdi Ulukaya starting Chobani. He comes from— he's Turkish and he comes to US and he's able to bring yogurt, Greek yogurt to America. And yes, that's what I would say.

And then just look at all the magic, just bringing Greek yogurt to America. I mean, that was a great service to bring.

It's not that they didn't have Greek yogurt, but it was anything But yogurt, it just wasn't a very good quality.

Exactly, exactly. I say the same thing about Montreal bagels, by the way. I live, I live, I live in Alberta, Canada, and you know, you can't get a decent Montreal bagel.

I've been both to Montreal and Alberta, by the way.

Have you?

Yes.

Okay.

Hey, could you let everybody know how they can get in touch with you if they'd like to have a discussion?

I am on I'm on LinkedIn.

You can add me on LinkedIn. My website is my name basically, Neri Karasillaman or nerispeaks.com. And I also have an Instagram account, @prof.neri.

I love that. Neri, thank you so much. I appreciate you making time for us today. I know how busy you are with everything. This has been truly brilliant.

Thank you, Marc. It was a pleasure.

Please let me know if this was of value to you. As always, my offer stands. If you would like 30 minutes of my time to help you brainstorm your business with you and your team, feel free to book yourself on my online calendar. The link is in the show notes. It's the one marked meetwith.marchaine.com. It would be my absolute honor to be of service. And while you're at it, why don't you go ahead and leave a comment or a review about this episode? I'd love to get your feedback. Was this of value to you? Did you Fill in any knowledge gaps. Was this worth your time? And of course, if you haven't done so yet, please do make sure that you subscribe to this podcast. I'd really like to get to 5,000 subscribers because then I know my message is working. Thank you so much for joining me today. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and I hope you dare to be the exception.

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Thank you.

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