Acknowledging and Leveraging Your Strengths to Drive Leadership Authenticity

I don't know about you. But as a leader, I find it so easy to focus on what's wrong, what needs to be fixed, and what any of my shortcomings or the shortcomings of my team, what we have. Then, when we're face-to-face with our people, we are challenged to expose our flaws to those around us. And then, we wonder why We feel like imposters. There has to be a better way. And that's what we're talking about today on Marc Haine Live. Welcome to this episode of Marc Haine Live. This is where small business owners and entrepreneurs pick up core skill sets to create the show-stopping, jaw-dropping experience that your customers and your employees deserve. I am your host, Service Expert and Master of Experiences Marc Haine. And today, my guest is Kathi Kulesza. We will be talking about what it takes to bring the human being back to leadership by leveraging the 3 keys to apology-free leadership. But before we get into that, I just wanted to remind you to please subscribe to this podcast. By doing so, you'll get notified whenever we bring you fresh new content each and every week. And if you're watching this on YouTube, Go ahead and ring the bell as well for that notification. I was recently, day before yesterday, I was in a discussion with my mother. She is releasing her 4th children's book. In it, she has her whole story in rhyme. It is really, really clever how she does it. And when I tell her how clever I think she is, she just shrugs and says, I don't see why. Anyone can do it, which really mirrors the attitude I get from her illustrator, Bruce Whaley. He's created over 20 drawings for each of my mother's books. And when I pointed out how talented and clever that we thought his drawings were, he just shrugs it off and goes, oh, it's nothing. So, I have a theory that when we are good at something, something that is for us so commonplace, so normal that we don't recognize our own skills and capabilities. We don't recognize that we have special gifts. For most of us, we cannot see the label from within the bottle. And we need some way of being able to look at our leadership and the skills we bring from the outside in. So that brings us to our Question of the Day. I'd like you to put in the comments what is the one thing that you do, one capacity, one capability that you do that people are always complimenting you for that you look at and you go, but it's nothing. I'd love for you to go ahead and share your experience. And please don't forget to hashtag it #ExperienceHaine. My guest for this episode is the Apology-Free Leadership Influencer, Kathi Kulesza. Kathi uses her experience in the hospitality industry where she has spent 3 decades in management. She started when she was 12 or 10. She's been doing management training, customer service, loyalty marketing, and executive leadership. And she inspires her clients and audiences to get out of their own way and lead with assertive confidence. Kathi has a bachelor's in hotel administration from the University of Las Vegas and she is a certified coach. Kathi, it is brilliant having you here. Welcome!

Thank you, Marc. It's an honor to be spending some time with you today. And I'm so excited. I love that question that you just asked. Oh, it was awesome!

Yeah, I can't wait to see what some of the comments are going to be. Hey, maybe you could start off a little bit by telling us what you do for your clients.

My goal is to give my clients hope mostly that it's going to be okay. Because most leaders and managers, supervisors, whether you're just starting out or leading a huge team, typically face the same challenges. And it does have a lot to do with what you just spoke about. It's not really having that confidence in their own abilities. And as a result, it limits their ability to lead effectively. So, I give them hope and then I share some key strategies that they can apply to create better relationships with their team and generate more followers.

Wonderful! You know, it's so funny as you were saying that. I was just— I think I've been fed a lie. I started in the hospitality industry when I was 17 years old and you always looked up to the managers. Of course, I'm a baby boomer. So, we grew up, you have to respect your elders. And then, you had these people who were in higher positions than you. And you thought, my God, I can't wait till I get promoted. And I can't wait till I learn all this stuff so I have all the answers too.

That's exactly right. And that's, I think, the biggest challenge that managers and leaders face is they feel like they have to have all the answers. And coming up in the hospitality industry also, which we have in common, is As a general manager, I was trained that I needed to have all the answers. And you've probably said this about yourself because it's part of the industry is I'm a jack of all trades, a master of none. Because you end up just solving problems all day long for your team, for customers, for your bosses. And so, you end up knowing a lot about a lot. And you're used to having the answers. So, you actually just do a lot more talking than Really listening.

And it's interesting because what happens then is we have this definition between management and leadership. And I think what we need to do is before we get really deep into our conversation today is talk a little bit about what defines leadership versus management.

For me, and this is my personal opinion, so you know what those are like elbows. Everybody has at least 2 of them. Or most people do. For me, the way I look at it is that managers are given a title and authority. And because of that, there are people that will work for them and do what they ask them to do because of that title and because of that authority. Leaders, it does not require a title or authority to be a leader. So, leadership or being a leader is who you are as a person. And title and authority or not, you establish relationships with people. And because of those relationships, they trust you and they will follow you. So, managers have people that work for them and leaders have people that will follow them.

Nice, nice. And that creates a little bit of clarity. Why do you think this idea— we connected offline prior to this and that your whole premise of an apology Fear-free leadership mindset is something that you are really waving this banner. And I can't wait to get into 3 keys a little bit later. But why is this topic important specifically for today?

Today, like where we are in the world right now?

Yep.

Sure. I would say because we have big challenges ahead of us. We've had a few, 2 and a half tough years and to continue to get through wherever this time we're facing right now is going to take us, we're going to have to have relationships with people where they're willing to follow us and trust us as leaders as we navigate coming out of the COVID dealing with the economy, dealing with a potential recession whether we have one or not. And if we don't have loyal followers and people that trust us as leaders, we can run into some hurdles because we're ahead trying to make decisions and get things done. And we look behind us and there's nobody there backing us up. So, it's essential as we adapt our organizations and adapt to the challenges we're all facing that we've got relationships with people that are gonna trust us to lead. And they're gonna trust us enough to do some of the crazy things we ask them to do as leaders.

We've gone through, to your point, we've gone through COVID. That shook everything up and it shook everybody down to their core. All of a sudden, people had to figure out new capacities and new capabilities. And the learning curve was very short. The window of time was very short. Now that we're coming out of COVID a little bit and things are quote unquote getting back to normal, which by the way, normal. The only thing that's ever normal is the setting on your dryer. That is normal. But we're getting into this new, into this new, what I call the new era now. Where do you see leaders falling down as far as adapting to this new era?

I think it goes back to having to have all the answers and having to be able to solve all the problems on their own. And that's something that's probably something that we learn along the way when we get promoted and get into these leadership positions is you've got to be the person that has all the answers. And the reality is, and I've said this a few times, is there's no leaders alive today running companies who were alive and running companies after the last pandemic. So, there are no experts. So, one of the skills which is hard to learn, I mean, I'm a baby boomer too on the cusp, is to put aside your experiences and everything you know And to be able to look at your challenges through the lens of maybe a 5-year-old, a 9-year-old, as if it's your first time ever dealing with it. And that's hard to do because we're programmed just to move fast and solve problems. But some of the problems we're facing, nobody's ever faced before. So, it's— we're better off bringing the team together and tapping into the knowledge and the skills of our teams. But that's a different way of looking at how we run our businesses.

So, in your experience right now with leaders that you're talking with these days now, the ones that are coming back out of and trying to re-establish kind of what their roles are and so on, are you seeing that leaders are seeing their roles as leaders differently now than they did prior to COVID-19?

I believe so. And there's actually an article on McKinsey and Company that's called— it's— I don't know the exact title. But it's like the CEO. And it's about having a to-be list instead of a to-do list. And this is something that I talk quite a bit about is that leaders found during the pandemic, and we all experienced this, we revealed the human side of every person on our team because we were dealing with real human problems. People having dying friends, friends and family members dying, being laid off. You know, trying to keep the family going with less income, working out of the home, kids showing up or dogs in my case in your meetings. And so, it really just was this huge reset button. And we had to look at our people not just as employees who punched a clock or walked into the building. But we got welcomed into their homes and they got welcomed into ours. And so, this article talks about how CEOs They had to— and I call it the white ivory tower. And you and I are CEOs and we don't have ivory towers. But they had to come out of their offices and they had to get into the business and get their hands dirtier than ever to figure things out. And so, the article talks about the challenge of what do you do now? You have different relationships with your people. You've gotten to know more about them as human beings. You've sat and held their hand when they cried. You continue to try to pay them when they weren't working. And now, what do they do? Do they go back to the way things were before? And so, the whole idea, and this is one of the, I think, one of the most brilliant ideas that we could consider putting into place is to look at ourselves and who we want to be as leaders instead of what we want to get done as leaders.

Yes.

And so, focus on your to-be list and that's focusing on the humans instead of a to-do list, which is talking about checking things off a list.

I'd even evolve that line of thinking even one step further to not only what we want to be as leaders. But how do we want to help the team and our members on our team? How we get them to be who they want to be as well. And I think that to your point, the fact that we've had this personal relationship now, even though it was digital and it was virtual, we were in people's homes. We were in the midst of the challenges that they were seeing. The challenges with daycare, the challenges with being unemployed, all these things. surrounding all our individuals who are working with us. And it's given the CEOs some really great insights. I think something that they didn't get because they never hung around the water cooler with the staff. Yeah, it's interesting.

Exactly, exactly.

I'd like to take a deeper dive into what it takes to lead apology-free along with what does that mean. And we'll do that right after this.

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Welcome back. I am speaking Speaking with apology-free leadership expert Kathi Kulesza. Kathi, we are seeing reports now to your point just prior to the break about all these different stressors now that our team has been seeing. We're seeing reports of high cases of burnout, increased mental health issues, and of course, the Great Resignation. It's not only happening for entry-level positions. It's happening in the leadership realm. In your opinion, are leaders on the wrong track right now? Do they need something to shake them up?

Oh, that's a really good question. I don't know that they need something to shake them up because I think we've already been shaken up. I think it's more about it. So, the way I look at what we've been through is I feel like the playing field has been leveled.

Yes.

And so, if you can stop looking behind you in the rearview mirror of what happened, and start looking at what's in front of you, there's great opportunities for everyone. Because now, people have moved on. People have retired early. People have left a job that they hated for 25 years because they had this wake-up call. So, how about we look at the opportunities to bring people into the business that love the business, that have a passion for it, and that you now can be more competitive as a leader and you can set yourself up for more success in the future. But if we're looking at what we lost and we're looking back at the way things used to be, you're not going to see the opportunities in front of you. So, I like to imagine that the playing field is leveled and that we all have an equal opportunity to drive our careers forward. And I was actually speaking to a CEO for a publishing company and I asked him about the Great Resignation. And he said that he felt like it was a huge opportunity to bring people in who are aligned with their with the passion that they have and their objectives and the vision of the business. And that it helped weed out some of the people that were just disengaged and really not aligned with the business goals. So, it depends on the lens that you look at these opportunities through.

Yes, yes. And what a great insight. I did read a stat from Gallup that says that 34% of our workers are highly disengaged. And these are the ones that are moving forward. And The hope is that if we do our job right, we're able to attract the people with the passion for what we do. At the same token, I think the fact that we got a little bit more personal with our teams because we were seeing them in their living rooms and bedrooms and dining and offices and so on, that all of a sudden, we recognized that our people had more capacity than their job description allowed, which is really interesting.

Yeah, I agree. And When I think about the— and I think so, you and I were probably one of those. We're both those annoying optimists, right? We look at— Yeah, that's true. The glass is half full. And I know it annoys my family that I'm an optimist. I get one of those like from my 9-year-old niece, you're so positive. And we have a choice as leaders, right, to look at the to look at the opportunities and look at what all these changes have created for us as far as moving forward. But the truth is, in those disengaged employees, if you look at the research, if they're significantly disengaged, they're not just disengaged. Some of them are actually working against you.

Yes.

So, there's— yeah, yeah. So, you're working hard to move things forward and they're working on pulling you back. So, if you have an opportunity to mix things up and offer them an opportunity to move on. And they see something else they'd rather do. Invite them to do that. Right? And then, bring people in and attract the people that are. And as you said too, this is another thing that— and I have one of my friends in this industry. He's done a lot of research on remote work. And most people will tell you they don't want people working from home because they're not as productive and they don't get as much work done. And that's a misperception. Research actually shows that people who do remote work and have figured out the setting at home, they can actually be more productive and get more work done. And think about the introverts we have on our teams who don't like those interruptions nonstop all day long. How much work they're getting done when people aren't popping into their cubicles. But we're looking at it as we're losing something instead of gaining something. So, I think it's just a— it really comes down to being open to the fact that what you believe is happening may not really be happening. And that there may be actually some positives coming out of all this.

And one way to do that is to actually talk to your team and find out what their perspective is.

Exactly.

I'd really like to get into your brand, this idea of apology-free leadership. What is apology-free leadership?

So, I'll tell you one thing it isn't. It doesn't mean you never apologize. So, because people are always like, So, you do. Yeah, it's not that you don't apologize. The original idea for me came back to that story you told about your mom and how you'll compliment her and she's like, ah, it's not a big deal. And women and men do this too. But women traditionally do not receive compliments very well and we often shrug them off. And a good example is As simple as somebody will say, oh, I love that outfit you're wearing. And we'll be like, oh, this old thing? I got it at Ross for $10. Instead of saying, well, thank you. I spent a little bit of time putting this outfit together. So, that's where the apology-free came from. But as I started talking about it more and more, I found that both men and women do struggle with accepting compliments and really acknowledging their superpowers and the skills and their abilities that they bring into the workforce. But the apology-free leadership, what that really is, is that as a leader, you lead in a way and create relationships with people that when the you-know-what hits the fan, people are going to follow you. And you don't have to ask permission to make requests of them, or you don't have to apologize for interrupting when you've got an important idea to share. And that people will follow you in good times and bad. And you don't have to make an apology or disclaimer every time you ask them to participate.

Yes. And you're saying, we're seeing this, I think. And I think it was Sandberg who wrote Lean In. I can't remember her first name.

Yes, Sheryl Sandberg.

Sheryl Sandberg, yes. And she was talking about this whole idea about that she really felt as she hit the executive levels in the C-suites that when she was sitting at the table, she really did find that she had to temper herself in order to not be perceived the bitch and not be perceived as being aggressive. When I talk to some leaders, there is a misnomer that the word aggressive and the word Aggressive and assertive. Assertive.

Assertive.

The same thing. You know, yeah.

How are they different to you? Yeah. So, this is interesting. And there is the way people look at assertive men and assertive women often is different. Now, I do believe because we've got so many generations in the workforce that we soon will be more accepting of more assertive women. But like my generation, I literally Did everything I could to blend in. I was, you know, general managers. When I first started out as a general manager, there was, you know, 80% of the general managers were men, 20% were women. And all the men were wearing dark blue and black suits with white shirts and ties. So, I wore a blue or black suit with a blouse and a scarf so I could blend in as much as possible. And I did everything I could to not stand out. And that's what happens when women are more assertive is we stand out a little bit more. And because we communicate differently, We're sometimes seen, and I think this is a generational thing, that when we speak up because it's it's a cultural shift to see women as leaders who can speak up and speak their mind, and because women traditionally were quiet and submissive, that when women speak up, it's more noticeable when men do. So I'll give you the difference between. My feeling of the difference between assertive and aggressive is an aggressive person will speak up and make themselves look good at the expense of others. An aggressive person, they will attack people instead of the problem. An assertive person, and the definition that I use is they will stand up for themselves without violating the rights of others. So, what that means is the aggressive person violates the rights of others. They belittle them. They talk down to them. They compare themselves to them so they look good, the other person looks bad. The aggressive person attacks people. The assertive person attacks the problem. And they help keep that person feeling whole. Now, what happens is when women, even when they are assertive, speak up, sometimes people will be like, Oh, why are you being so bossy? Why are you being so biatchy? And so, what I suggest to women that they do is they're direct and they say, hey Marc, I'm really working hard at being assertive. Can you tell me exactly what I said that you felt was aggressive? Because this is a skill I'm working on and I really want to make sure I get this right. Most cases, you don't need an answer to the question. You just need to let the person sit and think about it. Or you could emulate what you see the men leaders doing. And then, you can easily say, you know, 2 hours ago, Joe asked you the same question and you didn't question him. I'm just wondering what's the difference when I ask you to do that task versus when Joe does? And you don't need an answer. You just need to let the person sit in it because it's a— I think it's an unconscious bias. And women, we do it to women too. So, it's not men don't just do it to women. Women, we judge assertive women. And we've got— and what I try to do is get women to embrace and celebrate other assertive women, to understand the difference between assertive and aggressive. And then, when women are being assertive, let's give them some applause and celebrate Because it's not easy. It's a learned skill. And you know, even as a man, being assertive is a skill that needs a lot of development and practice.

It does. And again, being a baby boomer, I grew up in my first jobs where the carrot and the sticking. It was, if I want your opinion, I'll tell you what it is. Or when I ask you to do something, I don't want you to ask me why. I want you to ask me how high.

Right?

It was this constant, I'm the boss. You're not. Just do what I tell you to do. And so, we have seen that shift over the last 30, 40 years. We've seen that shift in the workplace, which is really good. Kathi, this is a brilliant conversation. For those people who are watching this saying, yes, you're talking to me now. How can people get in touch with you if they need to get a hold of you?

So, the easiest way to get a hold of me is you can go to kathispeaks.com. Or you can even send me an email, kathi@kathispeaks.com. And let's have a conversation. I love talking about this as you can see.

Oh yes, it really does sound like you are advocating for people to be more human as leaders. So aside from some of the things we've talked about today, what does that look like when when you're thinking this idea of bringing the humanity back into leadership?

I'll give you a great example of this. So, I was in Andover, Massachusetts in let's say 1999. And I was the general manager of a hotel that was transitioning from a Marriott hotel to a Wyndham hotel. And we arrived there with A conversion checklist, $4 million. And my right-hand person was my food and beverage director. And it was— the task was very simple. So, all we had to do was change out every logo, which if you've ever seen how many logos are at a hotel, little task. We needed to replace all the subpar products that were Marriott products with Wyndham products. And then, we just Had to train all the employees on the Wyndham way of customer service. So one morning, my food and beverage director came into my office and she was— her name was Melissa. And she's like, Kathi, you've got to give the managers a break. You're pushing them too hard. They're doing all this hard work. They're doing everything we've asked of them and you're just being too hard on them. And I was thinking like, what's this? What's she talking about? Like, These managers had really good salaries when we got there and they still have good salaries. And they got to keep their jobs when we took the hotel over. And we had a lot of work still to be done. And so, I'm looking at her like, so? But then, I was thinking about it and she kept coming to me like several times a week telling me this. You got to give them a break. You got to cut some slack. So finally, I was like, all right, look, find us something to celebrate. So that afternoon, she was talking about our customer service survey results and they had gone up a little bit, just enough. And we arranged for the bartender to bring out margaritas and chips and salsa. And so, 5 minutes into the meeting, we celebrated the customer service scores and then we had some margaritas and chips and salsa. Now, you having been in food and beverage and hotels, you know we can do that. Not all companies can do that. But we could do that in that business. And we just hung out and had margaritas and chips and salsa at 4:30 in the afternoon. And those managers talked about those margaritas and chips and salsa for at least 3 months. And so, it dawned on me that just something simple like that, it didn't— it cost us probably $5 for the chips and salsa, $10 for the margaritas. Being seen as more human by your team, priceless. It was simple. So, it's just once in a while, just stop the hamster wheel and just spend time with them. Just take your boss hat off and just relax. Have a margarita or a Coke.

But make sure you have the chips and salsa.

Yes, the chips and salsa.

But it just goes to show, it highlights how important it is just to do little things. things to be able to do it. Like you went out and challenged your manager who came to you and said, okay, let's find something to celebrate. What can we celebrate knowing that we're on this path? We're on this journey where we've hit milestones. What can we stop and celebrate with people so that we can actually just take it all in? And it's interesting. I'm reading right now The Gap and the Gain. And Dan Sullivan talks about this thing about that we're always so focused on everything we don't have. We haven't got to the destination yet. But we fail to realize how far we've come. And so, bringing humanity back into it maybe is you look at that and you just go, wow! But look how far we've come in 4 months. Look how far we've come in 6 months. Look how far we— look at how different we are now than we were last year. And be able then to turn around and celebrate that. So, I think that's a brilliant concept right there is this idea of reward.

Yeah, and I just got the book on my Audible. So, I'm going to start. I'm going to catch up to you on that book because everybody we know is reading it. It's true.

It is true. It's become the subject of conversation all over.

Yeah, I want to get in the game and get out of the gap. But that's very true. So Dale Carnegie in How to Win Friends and Influence People talks about this, to focus not just on where we're failing but where we've had successes. So oftentimes, managers spend all this time on trying to fix the things that are broken and they don't give any attention to what's working. And so, you run the risk when you give feedback to your team that if they're trying to make you happy and stop doing what's not working, they may stop also doing what is working because they don't know what's working. So, you want to do equal doses as a leader. Here's what I want to see more of. Here's what I love when you do this. And then, you give them the criticism also. But they know what to do more of. And you can even apply this to communications problems that you have with somebody. If there's somebody that— let's say you're an introvert and you don't like it when people interrupt you when you're in the middle of a project, or they walk into your office. You can say— and let's say one time they actually schedule time on your calendar and they show up on time and they're there and they made the point to schedule time with you because they kind of sense that you don't like interruptions. You can say, wow, thank you so much for putting time on my calendar and for being on time. I really appreciate that you respected the fact that I'm really task-oriented. And thank you for doing that. So, you reinforce the behaviors that you want from people. So that way, when you give them criticism, they know what to do more of. And that's something Dale Carnegie— how old is that book? I mean, I don't know. Decades, right? It's just sometimes, it's looking at these new books that we have access to and then looking at the books that have been around for decades. It's the same concepts. But it's just being reminded that the people side of it and giving them that reinforcement, those positive feedback, they're going to want more feedback that's positive. So, if you tell them what to do more of, they're going to do more of it because they want that and they like it.

Yep, what gets recognized and rewarded gets repeated. It's awesome. Hey, before—

So simple.

It is. But before we get into our next break, we promised we're talking about the 3 keys to apology-free leadership. I wondered as we lead into our next break, could you give us the 3 keys and then we'll delve into it after the break? What are the 3 keys to apology-free leadership?

And the good thing is we already did one of them.

Yes.

So, the be even more human is one of the 3 keys. To think like a leader. And then, the art of being a sounding board. So, those are the 3 keys.

Wonderful! And we'll dive We'll take a deeper dive right after this.

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Welcome back! I hope you are getting a ton from today's episode. As you can tell, Kathi and I are really passionate about today's theme. If you belong to an organization who is planning a leadership retreat or a conference, why don't you go ahead and drop us a line. Our connection information is in the show notes. We would love to explore how we could be of service to you and your people. That's what we do. That's what we live for. So, I'd like to dig a little bit deeper into the 3 keys of apology-free leadership. You mentioned that we've already covered one, which is this idea of being more human. Let's talk a little bit about this idea of think like a leader because I would challenge that most leaders go, well, I am a leader. Think like a leader 24/7.

Well, and you're going to be able to relate to this example also. That when I first got into the hospitality industry, I found myself. So, I live in Las Vegas. That's where I grew up. And I found myself in New Jersey. And it was 1987. And we had been experiencing some labor relations challenges. We actually had our employees at the time were Signing the union cards to potentially have a union election. There was a big shakeup and they changed most of the managers. And I was supposed to get promoted and leave. And I got stuck staying in this hotel. And I had a new general manager. And during one of our first one-on-ones, Ralph, the new GM, asked me what I wanted to do with my career. And at the time, it seemed absurd because we're in the middle of this Impending union election. I just lost a promotion to go to Virginia instead of New Jersey. And I'm like, I want to be a general manager. You know, and I was kind of snarky. I was in my 20s. So, don't judge me for that. And he said, okay, if that's really what you want, then I want you to walk in this hotel every day as if you are the general manager. Be the general manager. And that's really what I mean by think like a leader is if you want to be in that next position, you want to be a leader, start acting as if you are. It totally changed my perspective. And that's where I started realizing that it was more about the relationships that I had with people instead of just checking things off a list. So, as a general manager and putting that hat on when I walked in the door, The first thing I would focus is on the people. I'd ask them, hey, how are you doing today? Do you have everything you need? What can I do to make your life easier? As the assistant GM, which I was in that position, I was like, okay, did the liquor order get placed? Do we have enough staff today? Is there people in laundry so we have enough towels to put in the guest rooms? And it was all about checking things off the to-do list instead of focusing on the people. And for me, that's where I learned the importance of having that to-be list. is when I was striving to be the general manager. I have given this advice to so many people over the years. And when I get pushback, this is what people will say. Well, I'm not getting paid to do that job. And I'm like, yeah. And if nobody can see you doing that job, you probably never will get paid to do that job. It was the greatest advice that I ever got in my career. And it set me up It set me up to be here and be able to help other leaders become more human and think like a leader and be a sounding board. That was the first lesson I learned and it's what set me up for success in my career. And I attribute a lot of the success I had to those early years and with Ralph as a mentor.

And just unknowingly, you just tipped your hand onto the 3rd key. This idea of being a sounding board. What does that look like?

So, that goes back to what we were talking about of having all the answers. But also, it is tied to that to-do list that we have. So, I had gotten a nice new job when I was working for Wyndham Hotels. And I was given the responsibility of being in charge of the loyalty program. Now, this was with Wyndham before they were the biggest timeshare company in the world. And so, I was the second person that was in that role of the Vice President of Wyndham ByRequest loyalty program. And as soon as I got there, I was feeling really in like over my head because there was a lot of technology involved in that job and I had no idea. But we would have conversations and I had no idea what was happening around me. So, one of my guys, he was my IT liaison. He would come into my office and plop down. And he would start giving me updates. And he loved to come in and just Give me updates on what's going on and explain. You know, tell me what's happening in IT. These are the projects, the bugs, blah blah. And I would start asking him questions. And I wanted to be able to understand the technology as much as possible. So I would ask him question after question after question. And one day he did this. And if there wasn't a wall behind him, he would have fallen back. And I was like. Nick, I feel like there's a little bit of tension between us. Is there something I did that's frustrating you? And he's like, yeah, you don't trust me. And I was like, what do you mean I don't trust you? These questions. Like, you just ask me question after question after question. I'm like, well, I'm trying to embrace and understand the technology. You know, you're here to give me updates. I want to be able to help you. And he's like, that's not helping. So, here's what I was doing. I was asking questions for my benefit, not his benefit. I was asking questions so that it's that the— you've— we've all read the books, right? Seek to Understand versus Being Understood by Stephen Covey. I was seeking to understand for my own benefit, not seeking to understand for me to be able to help Nick. And that's probably where we get that seek to understand wrong. It's you're asking questions so you can support the person that works for you, not asking questions so you can know everything. So, I started changing my response to him. And honestly, what he really just wanted is he just wanted me to listen. He wanted to be able to walk in, sit down, talk about what's going on, and have me just listen to what his challenges are. Very few times did he really need me to help him. He just needed to talk it out so he knew what to do next. And once I learned to just shut up, which is the key to being a sounding board, it's just shutting up and listening. His and my relationship got so much better. Now, once in a while, he would need me to go to the CTO and ask for a bug to be bumped up the list. But most of the time, it was just me being willing to hear him out and let him work things out loud in his head. And so, the key skill I learned to be a sounding board is this. I guess dead air on a vlog is not a good thing, right?

Not necessarily. But I think people get it. It helps punctuate.

Yeah. So, and I actually share this So, sometimes people need a target. So, the target is to listen 80% of the time and speak 20% of the time. I was just listening to Darren Hardy's— he does the— do you listen to the Darren Daily?

Yes.

Yeah. So, his Darren Daily today was when he went to this high-end event with a lot of very experienced leadership-type people. And he said, the people you can tell that are less experienced and less successful are the ones doing all the talking and all the kind of boasting about where they are in their career. And the people that are extremely successful are the ones that are doing this. They're listening and they ask questions, but they're not boasting. And that's probably one of the greatest skills we can learn as leaders is just to learn to be better listeners and ask open-ended questions and really, really understand what's going on. with the people sitting in front of you. And there's one question that I want to share that you can ask yourself. And I'm going to read it because I want to make sure I get it right. If you can answer what is going on with this person right now and you can confirm it by repeating it back to them and reflecting back to them what they're saying and what they're feeling, then you've succeeded.

Beautiful. And that magic word, feeling. It's all about what they're feeling. And you've just punctuated what I feel or how I feel leadership has changed over the last 40 years. And that is we went from being the master of the knowledge. We had to know it all. So, people would come to you and go, I have a problem. Help me solve my problem. And you'd help them solve their problem to now that we are the sounding board. We are now the coach. We are now the mentors. in our businesses. And if we're not grabbing that bull by the horns, because how well would people grow if you were there as an active coach rather than their manager? How much different would that make that person this time next year? And what about their deliverables this time next year? I do know that in past episodes, we've talked about the value of coaching. What are your thoughts about coaches, mentors within the confines of people who want to be those leaders, some people who have like the moral authority but they don't have the formal authority, to the people who do have the formal authority and still know that they still have things to grow and things to change in themselves?

So, I feel like everyone should have a coach and a mentor. There's a difference between the two. Now, there are some unique leaders out there that can function in both roles. But typically, a mentor is somebody that's a few steps ahead of you. And you ask them a question and they'll give you the answer or the solution. Whereas a coach will do a lot more listening and they'll help bring the best out of you. There's probably a certain level in your career that there's nobody around you that can do that coaching for you. And it's important to find a coach. And a coach is somebody you're probably going to pay a fee to. So, you can have a good coach. Whereas a mentor is somebody in your industry that you can go buy a cup of coffee for and they're going to give you their best advice for free. But most of the most successful leaders and highest earners, they've got a coach that they're investing in because they understand how it can get them to where they want to be faster. And I think the other example I like to use about coaches is I love football. So, if you think about football teams, the coach is on the field with the football team during the practice. You know, all those practices, watching the tape, preparing for the game. But during the game, the coach is on the sidelines. And so, the coach prepares the team to win the game. The team wins the game. And so, as leaders, that's our role is to be a coach and be able to be on the sidelines and not be there 24/7. So, we prepare our team to win the games. But also, as leaders, sometimes there's not that person in our immediate circle. So, we have to go and find that person and invest in coaching. You and I live in this world. We've invested in a ton of coaches. And they've helped make us better and more successful. And we understand that. And I guess, if you're listening and you're struggling and you're not at the point where you want to be in your career and you don't have somebody around you that's a mentor that's ahead of you that that's willing to help you, consider looking for a coach. It could be one of the greatest investments you make in yourself, in your family, and your business.

I was just going to ask you, what's the first step people should take? And you just answered it. Get yourself a coach. Explore a coach. And again, part of the challenge with a coach is you have life coaches. You have business coaches. You have speaking coaches. There are coaches specifically for what you're trying to accomplish. And so, don't just hire a coach. Make sure you're hiring a specific coach to help you move along in your evolution. This has been absolutely phenomenal, Kathi. Are there any cautionaries for people who are watching this who are thinking, gosh, I do have to make a change? Are there any cautionaries we should be talking about?

So, I feel like you have to be really clear. So, if you looked at where you want to be in 2, 3, 4, or 5 years, So, look ahead. The most important thing you could do is kind of step out. Like they say, you can't see the forest through the trees. So, take some time to really think about where you want to be 3 years, 4 years, 5 years from now. And then, take small incremental steps every day towards it. The more to-dos you give yourself or action steps you give yourself, the more overwhelmed you're going to be. So another great book by Darren Hardy is The Compound Effect, right? Is doing small incremental things every single day, 10, 15, 20 minutes a day, and it will compound over time. Often what we do is we look at where we want to be in 5 years and it seems too overwhelming. But if you just take little bites at it every single day and look at your successes and celebrate those, some little things you can do is Journaling, gratitude journals. I'm not a big list maker but having a plan, even though I don't like to do it, I make a plan because the days I have a plan, the more successful I am. And that one thing I'm working on, I make sure that I have to check it off every day. Even if it's at like 11:45 at night, I'm checking it off because I'm committing to myself. And when people see you commit to yourself and they see you working on yourself, That gives them permission to be their best selves also. And if you don't do it for yourself as a leader, then— because this is what happens if you work as a leader. And if, let's say, you're in an organization, you've got a team of 20 people. If you're the first one to arrive and the last one to leave, guess what? Your entire team is trying to do that. And you're not giving them permission to have a life. You're not giving them permission to invest in themselves, to go to the gym or spend time with their kids because They're trying to be there till you walk out that door. And so, I started leaving.

We could have a whole show. Sorry, we could have a whole show just on boundaries. I mean, yeah, you really could.

Yeah. So, what did I say? Just one day at a time, 10, 15, 20 minutes a day. Look 3 to 5 years in advance in the future and just take it one task, one step at a time.

And celebrate it. Celebrate what you do do. Kathi, this has been fabulous. Can you remind everybody one more time how they can get a hold of you?

Yes, Kathi, K-A-T-H-I, @KathiSpeaks.com is my email. Or you can go to my website, KathiSpeaks.com. That's my handle in most places, Facebook. And I don't really look at Twitter, but it is my Twitter handle. Or you can find me on LinkedIn easily.

So, thank you.

Terrific!

We do have everything in the show notes here. As we wrap up, do you have any last Thoughts about what we've been talking about today?

You know, I think sometimes we overthink what's in front of us. And actually, if you embrace this idea of not having to have all the answers and just having the right questions, you take the pressure off yourself. And so, once you learn to do that and you find those answers within your team, you'll actually find that leading gets easier because you're empowering and delegating more. And you're taking the pressure off yourself to know all and do all. Yes.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate you being here to share your knowledge, your passion, and your expertise. To the audience, I hope you got lots out of this and it wasn't just 2 people who are super passionate about this just talking about it. I hope you got a lot out of it. If you have, thank you again, Kathi. Loved having you here. I look forward to connecting with you in the future as well.

Right back at you, Marc. Thank you for having me.

If you have any questions about today's episodes or would like a complimentary 30-minute brainstorming session with you and your team, feel free to book yourself on my online calendar. The link is in the show notes. It's the one that's marked meetwith.marchaine.com. As always, I am at your service. And if you haven't done so yet, go ahead and subscribe to this feed. It's the only way that you'll get notification whenever I bring you the fresh new content and experts just like Kathi who grace us with their knowledge, their passion, and their expertise each and every week. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and I hope You dare to be the exception. Thanks for joining me today.