Being Intentional with Diversity and Inclusion

There's not a week that goes by that we don't hear about diversity, equality, inclusivity all over the workplace. It is such a hot topic right now that big business is on the hot seat. It's not because they're not hiring diverse workforces. It's not because they're not even It's not even because they're not supporting DEI. It's because they don't have the corporate culture that keeps their diverse workforce from quitting. So, that's what we're going to be talking about today on Marc Haine Live. Welcome to Marc Haine Live. This is where small business owners and entrepreneurs pick up core skill sets to help them work on their business, not just in their business. I am your host, Service Expert and Master of Experiences Marc Haine. And today, my guest is First Star Consultant Kelly Beattie. We will be talking about what it takes to be intentional with diversity and inclusion and what we can do to support our workforces better. But before we get into that, I just wanted to remind you to go ahead and subscribe to this podcast. Please do remember to ring the bell because that will give you notifications whenever I bring you the fresh new content every week. And while you're at it, why don't you go ahead and follow me on LinkedIn, Twitter, and of course, on Instagram. You know, I am really proud that this podcast is able to bring you information to support you running your business. It's, I think, a great tool to help you understand your teams and develop your own personal skill sets as a leader. The amalgamation of the past 74 episodes give you a lot of information, especially how to support and sustain your corporate culture, which brings me to our Question of the Day. What initiatives have you implemented in your company What about in your division, your department that supports the differences in the people that you've hired? I'd love to hear what your stories are. Go ahead and share your experience. Why don't you go ahead, share this episode on social media with a link and make sure that you hashtag your comments with #ExperienceLeadership. And that way, we can track this conversation and make sure that you're heard. But then, other people can learn from it. learn from you as well. My guest today is the President of First Star Consulting, Kelly Beattie. A Master of Emotional Intelligence and Diversity Training, Kelly is a sought-after specialist located in Ann Arbor, Michigan. She is IDI certified to support intercultural competencies and a 360 Certified Strategic Leadership Development Coach. Welcome, Kelly! It's so nice to have you on the show.

Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here. It's wonderful.

Wonderful! Maybe you could start off a little bit about telling us what you do for your clients.

I really support their initiatives. I help them to achieve their goals, whether it's on an organization level, a department level, or an individual level. Really going in and helping them accomplish their plans and their goals and objectives.

And so, are we talking specifically in diversity and inclusion programs? Are we talking about Business culture? What are we talking about?

The whole, really the whole gamut. As you mentioned in the intro, DE&I work is very, very important to organizations. And so we've been doing a lot of business supporting companies locally, as well as nationally, in their DE&I efforts. But also leadership development, leadership coaching, executive coaching, really going in and helping these leaders move through these, these Yeah.

And as I mentioned at the very beginning, I really see like, I mean, we're hearing about all sorts of issues with inclusivity and equity and that sort of thing. Why is this an important topic for businesses today?

Well, it goes directly to culture and being able to provide a culture for your employees that they feel safe at work. They feel confident and they feel comfortable really being themselves. in that environment. And so, being inclusive, being intentional, having equity, being able to have an opportunity to achieve the same things is really, really critical in organizational culture these days.

Right. I grew up, of course, being a child of the '60s, been born in the '60s and then really coming, maturing in the late '70s and early '80s. Back then, a lot of the talk was about affirmative action programs which supported hiring of visible minorities and making sure that people had a balanced workforce. How is diversity inclusion programs different now?

Different. They are different now because it is beyond demographic diversity, right? We're not just checking the box for diversity as it relates to the numbers of people that I've hired in each category. But really celebrating the differences those employees within the workplace. Really embracing what makes them different and being able to have that melting pot of great ideas from a very diverse workforce.

And so, we're not talking about visible minorities. We're talking about the individuals being different and independent individuals that are different from the people around them.

Absolutely. And diversity, yes, the racial diversity is a very, very critical issue. There's also socioeconomic diversity. There's lots of different types of diversity that are out there. And really being able to focus on making sure that, that, that diversity is celebrated and that people feel included in their workspace, and that they feel confident and comfortable there.

I am so excited for this conversation because What you mentioned is kind of the poster that we see on the wall, right? It's like, we support diversity. And so, through this episode, I'm really looking forward to uncovering what it takes to actually walk the talk and not just have it as words.

Yeah.

How have you seen DE&I programs affected with remote working? Because now, I think with remote working, we've opened up a whole Pandora's box of equity. What have you seen?

That is definitely true. I would absolutely concur. Organizations that I have worked with pre-pandemic have told me that they were never, they were never going to go remote; they were never going to do flexible spend, you know, flexible scheduling. And then COVID hit, and then they had to change. And so honestly, they, there has been a decrease of incidents in workplaces because people are remote and they're not interacting face-to-face.

So, this you're talking about interpersonal conflicts? Okay. And so, but what about things like opportunities? Especially as we're coming back to— and now, there's talk about hybrid environments now where sometimes you can go to the office or you can stay at home. But the people who aren't face-to-face with the boss, people who don't have the exposure are said now that they're going to end up actually with more opportunity for pay raises, for recognition, for promotions than somebody who might be working remotely.

Because they're visible.

Right.

Yeah. And so, that is the increasing challenge is how do I keep pace if I work remotely? How do I maintain that same level of visibility? And honestly, It's, it's a really big challenge for, for people. And so the leaders are navigating these really, really critical waters as it relates to, do I bring my workforce back? We're still in a pandemic. And so you want to make sure that your employees are safe and that they, again, feel comfortable and not feeling exposed in an environment that they've, that they are in danger of maybe catching the virus. But on the flip side, Right. We still have to get business done.

Yes.

Right? And so really being able, really being able to have a good, difficult conversation about these types of instances. So if, if I am choosing to work remotely because of health issues and health reasons, I need to be able to assert myself and to be able to find opportunities to increase my visibility.

Yes, yeah. And where does that put the onus on as far as the leader is concerned? How much responsibility do the leaders have in order to be present to the fact that their workers are remote?

Yes, the leaders absolutely have to maintain that level and being able to stay in touch and find opportunities to connect with their remote workforce as well. But it really has to do with both sides. Both parties have accountability to be able to have that opportunity, right? So as a, as a professional, I can take charge of my career. And I can ask questions, and I can connect with people and build my network and, and do all sorts of things to open up doors and increase my visibility. And then the balance of that is that leader being able to be open and to hear ideas and to be able to hear thoughts. The one thing that the pandemic did do is it really changed the way that leaders think about the workplace. So many had these antiquated notions that you have to come in, you have to work 8 to 5, and that's the only way that we can get business done. And then we all know what happened in March of 2020.

Yeah.

People scrambled. They still needed to run their businesses. And so it really changed the way that leaders think, because they had to be able to flex their thought process in order to continue their business.

Yeah, you know, just in that little segment, you've uncovered so many different qualities and issues and challenges. From communication to being aware to trusting and creating a culture where people can trust. Because before the pandemic hit, when I was working for the municipal government, I would— I got, you know, if I came in at 10 o'clock, people were like, well, that's nice. And it made me realize that I had been at breakfast meetings all morning, right? So, people didn't know that. They only saw when I came walking through the door and they're going, well, our day started at 8:30. What makes you so damn special?

Oh yeah.

And then, it made me start thinking about why is it that we equate working with somebody being at their desk.

Yes.

Right? And now, and really at the end of the day, people commuting their 45 minutes an hour or whatever it is to go and commute to sit at a desk to do the work that they could be doing at home now is the big challenge. And before COVID-19, it was all about trust. People didn't trust that their employees would get the work done.

Right.

Right? And in fact, I think if you look back at any kind of all the ad spaces and stuff from basically April, May, June, July last year, there were tons of software being released on how you can track the software on somebody's computer to make sure that they're doing the work. And it was all very big. And then, it's like security camera footage, right? Some people put up security cameras and they expect that, yeah, we can always catch whoever's doing things wrong. And it's like, well, who has time to sit down and watch copious amounts of video footage, right? It just didn't work. But it's interesting because it forced us to trust a little more. And so, do you see that reflected now in how cultures or how businesses hire their staff?

I do. I do. There is, there is an element of that where people are changing their interview and hiring practices and really asking different questions as it relates to the hiring process. And it's more about behavioral-based interviewing. And tell me about a time when you had to, or when you accomplished this, and driving down to some of the interpersonal skills as it relates to the job and being fit to the team and fit to the culture versus being able to just come in and do the job.

Yes, yes, I see. And right along those lines, I see that a lot more of the questions are values-based.

Yes.

Because we want to make sure that people fit at least with the values if we were insisting on diversity. I'd really love to get into some corporate culture and leadership behavior impediments.

Okay.

That are impeding DEI. And we'll get to that right after this.

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I am speaking with Kelly Beattie of First Star Consulting. And we're talking about this idea of corporate culture and how DEI fits in and how to be intentional behind diversity, equity, and inclusion programs. I mentioned at the top of the program that it seems from reports that the biggest problems that we're seeing with DE&I programs is that it is not helping with employee retention. Why is that?

Well, honestly, through my IDI work, there was a great statement that came out. And it is, companies hire for diversity but they onboard for similarity. And so— that's really good! Yeah, that's through, that's through IDI and the assessment that you mentioned. And so we, we seek diverse candidates, but then we hire them and we immediately want to make them like us, versus celebrating the fact that we brought them in as a diverse candidate, and to be able to change our onboarding and to be able to change some of the opportunities that they have. I was working with a gentleman, and he was, he's a Black man, brought in to help as an executive. And I was coaching him, and he, the first thing he said to me was, Kelly, they want me to have all these press statements, to like media statements, but it doesn't sound like me. I wouldn't say that. And so because we're trying to fit these diverse candidates into our world versus opening up our world to fit these diverse candidates, it's hard on retention.

Yes.

They come in thinking, I've got this great opportunity. I'm going to come in. I'm going to make this change. And they face the same roadblocks that they've continued to face.

So is it because leaders are ill-prepared?

I don't know if it's ill-prepared. I just, I don't know if they just don't know what they don't know. Right? And so really being able to incorporate DE&I work. And when, when I work with some of the top organizations that have outstanding DE&I plans, they don't necessarily list it as DE&I. There's not a line item in their strategic plan that says, we're going to be diverse, we're going to be equitable, and we're going to include everybody. But it's woven into their strategic plan. Right. So inherently, they are focused on DE&I. Like they have, they have changed and looked at all of their policies, their hiring, their systems, some of their, like they've relooked at their handbook to make sure that there's not inherent biases present within those types of policies. And so by looking at it and saying, we're going to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do, automatically lends itself to being a very diverse, equitable, and inclusive organization.

Well, definitely that level of humility definitely outlines where you might be lacking as well. You mentioned biases. Do you find that that's one of the big impediments that leaderships have, that they just don't understand what biases they do have?

Oh, absolutely. And it's either— there's 2 camps with leaders that I work with. One, they know that they have biases and they really need to do some work on how to uncover and bring it to a conscious level to say, oh, that's why I think the way that I think. The other camp is they don't believe that they do. And everybody has bias.

I treat everybody the same, right? I treat everybody the same. I have no favorites. I don't persecute anybody. I have no bias. Yeah, but I don't have any—

everybody has biases.

Sure.

You know, my, my, my dad is 77 years old and was in the hospital, and he said, I know that, that, I know that this is the times, but I had a male nurse.

Yes.

Right? And so, I mean, we all, we all have biases, and it's about being able to recognize what they are and Yes. And why they— why, like, how do we come up with them, right? And how do we combat them? And it's not— the human brain just functions. Like, when we see and hear something, we automatically draw a conclusion about what we saw and heard. And our biases play a tremendous role in which side we— how we conclude that. How we were brought up, what our history is, what our experience is. And we can't We can't help it. The human brain just naturally fills in these blanks.

Mm-hmm.

And so we have to bring conscious awareness and say, oh, you know what? Because I am of this generation, and when I was growing up, these were the traditional roles that I experienced. Now I'm realizing that I've gone beyond that, right? And so, it's about doing the work to uncover what those biases are and to understand the root of how they came to be.

Yes, it's so interesting because I think we are persecuting the modern age with the history and the habits of the past. So, a perfect example is you watch an episode of All in the Family from 1970-something, or you watch a TV show from the 1960s where a man is hitting on a woman in a— and the behavior. I mean, Mad Men is a perfect example. Watch an episode of Mad Men and watch how they interact with the women, right? And it's like, oh my God! It's like, I can't believe they actually did this, right?

Right.

But it was values. It was values and it was definitions that were made before their generation was even born. born. This idea that my mom, bless her heart, her role getting married was to be of service to my father.

Yes.

My father got up every morning. She made him breakfast. She laid out his clothes while he was in the shower. She packed his lunch. And then, here you go, honey. And it was Leave It to Beaver kind of utopia where everybody had their roles. And now, all these roles have been shifted. And it's becoming more and more complicated to start thinking about this thing in the workplace. Go ahead.

I was just gonna say, it's a— and it goes beyond because we pass those roles on to the next generation.

Right.

Right? Just through, just through our natural conversation. And the next generation is looking to see how we interact and what is it that we do. And do we have Do you know what role do I play versus what role does the male play, right?

Yes.

If you're talking about— if you're talking about homes, I mean, I see it in— I see it in children. I've got school-age, young elementary school-aged children, and my daughter loves to play football with her friends. And one of her male friends looks at her and says, you throw like a girl. And my daughter just looked at him and said, I am a girl. How do you think I'm going to throw? Right? So, she didn't realize that it was intended in maybe not the nicest way.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting because I'm surprised she just didn't step up and go, come and say that to my face and I'll kick your bum.

Well, she wound up throwing the football at him and hitting him right in the chest.

So, it's so interesting. Last night, I just saw an article a TV news report about Lego, about how they're going to be knocking out the gender bias out of their products. Because they have Lego for children. I mean, for boys. And they have Lego for girls. And the girl ones are beauty shop and shopping. And it's all focused towards kind of that mentality. And it's like, who's to say that young girls don't want to play with the Star Wars Right. But the challenge, and they mentioned something really interesting because it really starts with these preschoolers who get teased if people find that they're playing with a gender-different toy. So, if a little boy is playing with a girl toy, a quote-unquote girl toy, people make fun of them.

Yes.

And so, we're creating these biases now at a very, very early age. As people migrate now, what do leaders need to do in order to offset that as they're bringing the new generation into their workplace?

It's a great question. Really being able to, as leaders, emotional intelligence is highly critical. It is becoming one of the top leadership competencies for this particular age. Being self-aware and recognizing that these biases exist and recognizing where are our biases, right? I work with, I work with male executives, and they'll say, well, I can't even compliment, I can't even compliment the women in my office because they get offended. And I just smile and I say, do you ever compliment the men? Why are you only complimenting the women? Right? So it continues to feed on that bias. Right? And so being able to have that self-awareness and saying, oh, you know what? And it was, to his credit, the executive said, well, I'm going to start complimenting the men. I said, fantastic! That's, that's all we're, that's all we're asking for. Right? If you're going to compliment me on my dress, great. Are you going to compliment my coworker on his tie?

Right?

Or—

And hopefully, that's the yes, right?

Yep. And so like I said, to this, to this executive's credit, he said, I'm going to start complimenting the men then. Fantastic! Right? So being self-aware and recognizing what I'm saying and how I'm saying, but more importantly, why am I saying it? Right? Why do I feel, why do I feel the need to, to say that? Right? And then being self, like self-managing, being able to understand our emotions, and then being able to express them in a really healthy manner. I can be really good and mad at somebody and never raise my voice.

Right.

And at the end of the conversation, the relationship's actually stronger because we had a really good discussion about whatever made me mad. But I'm not tearing into them. I'm not calling them names. I'm just saying, you know what, that really bothered me. And I need just some time to process this. Right? And then you've got the social awareness of emotional intelligence and being able to look at social cues. So if typically you come in the office and you're jovial and you're saying hi to everybody. And today, you just walk in and heads down over to your desk. And I, wow, that's unusual behavior. I need to pay attention to make sure that Marc's okay. And then, the relationship management is the empathy and the conflict management. So many people avoid conflict and it just causes bigger issues.

It so does. If you ignore it, it will not go away.

Exactly.

I did a segment on people who are fighting at work and the leaders, how intentional leaders need to be to be able to gauge kind of the pressure in the room because customers can feel it. And in a particular situation I was talking about, the supervisor came in, did their thing, and then walked out. And at no point did she have a clue that there was some static going on that was affecting her customers, affecting her employees, And the actual civility between the 2 employees were just horrendous.

Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, it's amazing. I was working with a woman that I was brought in specifically to coach her because she was the mean person in the office. And I said, has anybody had a conversation with this person about her behavior? Oh no, that's just the way she is.

She was the mean person or the main person?

The mean.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, so she, she was— she's being accused of being a hot— like a host— creating a hostile environment.

Yes.

And I sat her down and I said, do you, do you know that people think this about you? And she wept.

Yeah.

She said, I had no idea that people thought that about me. She's like, I just thought that that was part of the culture, that we could be really brutally honest with each other, and I thought that was great. I wish somebody would have told me.

Yeah, a long time ago and I would have stopped. Yeah. And it just goes again to this idea that when behavior gets unrecognized. So, good behavior will get supported if it's recognized. Bad behavior, if it gets recognized, will be corrected.

Correct, right?

If you just leave it, it just evolves into something that's just absolutely cancerous. This is really, really— yeah, go ahead.

I was just going to quickly say, we teach people how to treat us. So, if you say something to me and I don't say anything to you, it reinforces to say, oh, I can say that to Kelly. So, just something to remember. We teach people how to treat us.

That is so interesting because it's so true. And I guess as leaders trying to create this inclusive culture, they need to be putting their staff through training to understand that aspect of their relationship.

Yep. And beyond training, the training is great. But how do they apply it? How do they make the training stick? And how do they hold people accountable to what they learned in the training?

Love it, love it. This is so incredibly interesting, Kelly. And I know that there would be people out there who need help with this. They need help with understanding. It's such a huge issue. How can people get in touch with you if they want to pick your brain?

The best way, I am on Instagram. But my main is through LinkedIn.

Okay, LinkedIn. So, they can just go and the link will be in the show notes.

Yeah.

I'd really love to get into some concrete examples of communication practices. And we'll get to that right after this.

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We are uncovering So much amazing content today. I hope you're getting lots from this episode. My goodness, like I mean, really this idea of being intentional. It's really taken this idea of being a good leader to a whole new level with this understanding. Are leaders having a hard time adapting once they understand the challenges? Are they having a hard time adapting to it?

Some of them, I mean, just like with any group of people, there are going to be people who are early adopters, and they're going to be on board, and they're gonna, oh, yep, or this is a great idea. You're going to have kind of those influencers, right? Then you have the majority. And there's always going to be people that just never, never come along. A lot of the work, a lot of the work that I do, and it's something that I really want to stress to your audience, is that you don't need to have a title to be a leader. You don't, I don't, I don't need to have a fancy title. And in fact, a lot of the executives that I do work with, they'll tell me, if I have to use my title to get something done, I've failed.

You have.

It's about building influence. And I encourage organizations to look at who are their informal leaders? Who are people listening to? in their workplace and then being able to tap into that.

I love it. I talk a lot about that in my book about having these people with informal authority or as opposed to the people who have the titles and stuff. And there are people all over the place who have this moral authority. They're the ones who are leading by example. And my mom, when I was brought up, they said, treat people the way you want to be treated. But at the same token, I think it goes as far as saying behave in a manner that you expect everybody else to behave.

Yeah. And so, many of us were brought up on the Golden Rule, right? Teach people, treat people as you would want to be treated. And there's a concept out there now called the Platinum Rule. Teach people, treat people the way they want to be treated.

Oh yeah.

Right? To be able to go beyond and making that assumption that you want to be treated the same as me, but really being able to identify your individuality and to be able to say, you know, you may, you may love to be recognized at a company meeting where I would be horrified. Right?

Exactly, exactly.

But it's really about the individualization. And leaders have to get to know and talk to their employees to find out what they want. What is it that, what is it that they need? And really good leaders spend about 60% of their time focusing on their employees.

Yes.

Right, working with them. Yes, the good leaders do. And the— for me, yes, things still have to get done. We have to accomplish the goals that we need to accomplish, which is the other 40%. But so many people flip that. And they spend the majority of their time Getting stuff done. And they leave their employees behind. And so then, it goes to culture.

Until that employee is a problem. And then, what you're doing is reinforcing that only people with bad behavior get your attention.

Correct. And you wind up bringing even your superstars down because now, you're focused on this employee who's struggling. Whereas the strongest leaders focus on their high performers. They will work with their struggling employees to see if they can correct that behavior. But really, they focus on their high performers and give their attention to them because they want that emulated.

And I'm sure I am not the only one who's been in a leadership role where you've been working with the person who's been the most difficult on your team to the point where at some point, you turn around and you say, you know what? I'm done. We have to part ways. And as soon as that person walks out the door, all of a sudden, all the team members are coming and going, do you know what that person did? This person did this. This person did. And all of a sudden, you're hearing a list of grievances that are just bubbling to the surface that you were never aware of.

Right.

And so, in past episodes, we have talked about how to have difficult conversations. And I get a sense from you that when you mention difficult conversations, These may be topics that when you go deeper, that these are actually deeper than performance issue conversations. What are your thoughts with these difficult conversations?

Well, being able to hold a space to have a difficult conversation and the topic can range. A difficult conversation may be a performance It may be, you're not, you're not doing what I thought you were going to do, or you're not up to expectations. As a leader, I have to make sure that I check myself. Was I clear with my expectations? Right? And it goes beyond, do you understand? Because most employees, if their boss says, do you understand? I don't know if the culture is right there, but many of them go say, yep, I understand.

Right.

And then they go back, and then they try to figure it out.

Yes.

And so really being able to ask those pointed questions, to say, Marc, what did you hear me, what did you hear me say as it relates to this goal? Or what did you hear me say as it relates to my expectations? And to get that sounding board back so they know. And so that, once we know that the expectation is clear, then it sets a platform for that difficult conversation. Help me understand. Why are you struggling? How can I help you? What can I do? So many people, like I mentioned before, avoid the conversation. Oh, Marc will figure it out. It'll be okay. Marc will figure it out. And Marc doesn't figure it out.

Or Marc stays working 5 or 6 hours late trying to figure it all out, or working on the weekend. Trying to figure out why is he so inept at his job.

Right, right. But difficult conversations can also be— go back to our earlier conversation with as it relates to DE&I. Somebody might have made a comment in a meeting that made the whole group go silent. But nobody knows how to move the conversation forward. And so, being able to have The space in order to say, okay, let's, let's talk about what just happened. Tell me why you said what you said. Help me understand. People have really good intentions when they speak. Most people don't set out to offend. Most people have that experience where, gosh, it sounded a lot better in my head than it did coming out of my mouth. Right? And they, and we trip over those words. And to be able to create an environment that does have trust and does have positive intent, to say, you know what, I know Kelly. I've worked with Kelly for a really long time. I'm going to just check in with her because that, she said something that doesn't align with what she would normally say. Right? And then gives me the opportunity to say, oh my gosh, that, that wasn't what I meant at all. I am so sorry. Or, that is what I meant, and this is why. And it be— begins a really healthy dialogue for mutual understanding.

Yeah, yeah. Again, having the safe space that if you say something, you're not going to be crushed by the people around you. That you have this open and honest. And I like to call them courageous conversations. Being able to have those courageous conversations is so important.

Yeah.

When I recently— oh, you were going to say something?

You want that? No, I'm just agreeing with you.

Yeah.

There's lots of material out there.

Oh, I know. It's just like my head just buzzes when we talk about this stuff because this is all about interpersonal. It's about respecting people as individuals and recognizing that they're individuals as well. And when I recently facilitated a workshop for an intact team, it was really interesting because when I was hired because they had conflict. They were losing staff and they couldn't understand why they were losing staff. The leaders thought that they had and created this wonderful culture. And they wanted to find out why it was so bad. And as we were digging into issues, all of a sudden, this animosity came out about these things like unwritten rules. There were rules that the staff were living by that they were actually passing on to one to the other. And don't— the people who stay late and work weekends, they're the ones who get get the pay raises and the bonuses. And they're the ones who get promoted. And don't come in. Don't go and do this in the lunchroom. And there was so much pressure around these things that were never a policy. It was never written. But it's stuff that were handed down. And so, having these, being open to these courageous conversations, what do leaders need to do to be aware that this stuff exists?

Yes.

So, there's a great saying that culture eats strategy for breakfast. Right? And when you're talking about, when you're talking about a set of unwritten rules that are going on in your organization, that's the culture. Right? And it does get passed on from person to person. And so as you are onboarding new people, if I'm responsible for helping to onboard, I'm passing these things over. So leaders have to really be aware of what these unwritten rules, what their culture truly is, and being able to ask those questions. A set of listening sessions is really, really helpful. Leaders can sit down, and they can do quick feedback. 15 minutes: What should we start doing? What should we stop doing? And what should we keep doing? And that gives a platform to be able to uncover, what are some of these unwritten rules that are happening in our organization? I worked for a company where I was a manager in that organization. And one of our cultures, like, it was a very casual company. You could wear shorts in the summertime, you could wear sandals. And so in our department, the unwritten rule was we never went casual. We were always, at minimum— it was never written in, like, the dress code didn't say that we had to be that way. But our leader always dressed that way. The, the management was always dressed that way. And so it was just, you walked into the— oh, this is the way that we dress. And And to be able to, to be able to have companies and leaders within those organizations ask the hard questions. Because it's very common that the, especially the C-suite, believes their culture to be one thing, but it's actually really something else.

And that is always clear if you ever watch an episode of Undercover Boss. Yes, I love that show. I love it too. It's like the boss gets down into the grassroots of the organization and actually talking to people. It's like, this happens here?

Oh yeah.

It's so amazing.

Yeah, there's a buffer between the middle management and the executives where a lot of times, the executives are shielded from some of the stuff that's happening. Whereas if, if, again, going back to having a difficult conversation, if we can help to train and apply skills in having courageous conversations, so I can go to that next level and say, this is what's really happening here. Because I've walked into several organizations, and they say, what? Like, I don't under— like, I don't understand. I, why? Why is this happening within my organization? Or the even a worst case is they are forced to bring us in because of a lawsuit or some sort of harassment claim that's going on. And so we're brought in to help to identify— we do a lot of organizational culture audits to figure out. So we'll go in and facilitate these listening conversations to hear what's really going on in the organization.

And I was just going to mention that. How important is it for people to start looking at third-party intervention? When is it appropriate?

Honestly, if it's something that— if they have people within their organization that are trusted and can get the information out, That's fantastic. Most organizations don't have a group of people that— and honestly, the HR departments are stretched, right? And so because of this EDI work, or ED&I work, and being able to work on culture and do these other things, you know, HR and organizational development are 2 different skill sets. And so HR is then— human resources departments are now pressed to be able to do all of this. And so really, they, each company has to consider, do they want to buy the talent, borrow the talent, or build the talent?

Yes.

Yeah, do I want to bring somebody in to do it? Do I want to get an outside third party? Or do I want to develop somebody from within in order to—

Make sure that happens. Yeah. And, you know, and, you know, lots of, lots of big businesses are bringing people in who specialize in these things. You mentioned somebody trusted. I think it's important to note that what is the person who might be trusted by the management team might not be the person who's trusted by the people on the ground.

Oh, absolutely. So, how do they test for it? Say that again?

How do they test for it?

Well, you can just see people's reactions. So, if I go into— if I am that person, that trusted person, and it's announced that I'm going to do a bunch of listening sessions, I can see the nonverbals on people's faces. To be, oh, why is she right? Or you can also, you can also get it. You can also kind of gauge it because of the how truthful people are being in those answers. Right? If I'm not getting, if I'm not getting, if I'm all, if I'm only getting sunshine and rainbows, unicorns and lollipops, oh no, everything's great here. Everything is fantastic here. No, it's oh, it's great. Then I, then it's a flag. to say that people don't feel like they can be honest. Right.

That's interesting. Yeah. A lot of people watching this will go, oh my goodness, this makes so much sense. And they might recognize that they might not have an effective culture. But they don't know what's wrong. How do they get started?

Start asking questions. All throughout the, throughout the organization, just start, start, you can start with the leadership team and just, what do, what do we want to be? What do we want our culture to be? And really do an assessment as to where, what is our current state? And then what is our future state? What do we want it to be? And then being able to bridge that gap from where you are to where you want to be.

Yeah, and understanding what the obstacles are along the way to support it as well. Yeah. Are there any cautionaries to what we're talking about? I know that I've known a lot of managers who will get information like this. And right away, they're going to go back to their team and go, oh, we have to change and we're going to change today. What are some of the cautionaries about what we're talking about?

Well, I'm gonna flip it and make sure that it's intentional. And that you're planning for it, right? We, we, you don't want a culture initiative, or you don't want an initiative that relates to DE&I to appear as flavor of the month.

Right.

Right? So when I go to a seminar, it's, oh my gosh, it's so great! I got such great information! I go running back to my team, hey, we're gonna start this! Well, there's no plan, right? And so it's really about managing the change piece, the change component. And how are you going to lead the employees through the change to make it sustainable?

And I can see that to some people, especially the flavor-of-the-month managers.

Yeah.

I can imagine that that is a really tough conversation to have when trust is not high.

Yes. And the more that the flavor-of-the-month switches over, the more different flavors we get every month, the more trust is going to erode. Because then, it's going to be, oh well, they're just— it's going to fade away. So, I'm not going to buy in. I'm not going to put any energy to it because they're going to be something different next time.

Yeah, just let it blow over. It'll blow over in a couple of weeks. And they'll be on to something else. Don't get your knickers in a twist, right? And so, when trust is really that low, Is there any way for somebody to be able to overcome that? Or do they have to go to a third party?

If they are able to ask the difficult question, right, and being able to hear the difficult answer. So, if you don't trust me, right, the trust is broken between us. And you are feeling like I can't be trusted, I need to be able to have that difficult conversation and say, Marc, tell me, tell me why you don't feel that you can trust me or respect me or whatever, whatever value you're trying to get to.

Mm-hmm.

And to be able to hold that space and listen and not be defensive and not try to disprove it. But really just listen to what that person has to say. Because it might be something minor that occurred. You might have said something offhand that you didn't really give any credence to. And then every time, you might have alluded to it. And so it starts to erode that trust. But what a lot of, what leaders do is they ask the question. And when they hear the answer, Yeah. They immediately defend versus just actively listening. And at the end of the conversation, say, thank you for that feedback. I really appreciate it. That's going to start the basis of rebuilding that trust.

Love it! It's so interesting because I know so many different personalities who would be contrary to that. They would hear the feedback and right away, well, you do understand what it takes to run this company. And it's like, okay, stop.

Yes, exactly.

This is part of the problem. And this is part of the challenge. So, I think it's really interesting because it does take a lot of humility in order to stop and self-assess. And it takes a lot of intentionality in order to make that happen. If people don't have those skills, so if you have a manager and he just, he's completely devoid of any kind of understanding. But the team themselves understand that this is a really crappy manager and he says things that are unkind. I know he doesn't mean it. But it still hurts every time he says it.

Oh sure.

What can the staff do? Because I mean, obviously, there's always that fear that the boss has the upper hand as far as their employment is concerned. Who wants to rock the boat?

Yeah, yeah. So, it really comes down to something that you said previously where Companies are interviewing to align with their values. Right? And to be able to— that's where, that's where you'll find the greatest employee satisfaction and employee engagement is when the employee's values align with that of the organization. When you have somebody who is apparently out of line with those values, again, depending on what level manager we're talking about, right, you can't fire the boss, right? You can't fire the owner.

Right.

That's where you may think, we might need to go. Or we might need to, we might need to be able to, who can we, who can we talk to in order to address this?

Yes.

Right?

And it's going to somebody who that particular leader trusts as well. Yes.

Yeah. And to get that feedback.

Yeah, so fascinating. As we wrap up, do you have any last thoughts about what we're talking about today?

Just the only thing that I want to just leave the audience with is just be curious. I know that Ted Lasso needs no additional publicity. But it's such a, it's a classic show. But just be curious. Don't be judgmental. And it's really, it's a really hard space to be in. But if you can lean in to that diversity, if you can lean in to that difficult conversation and say, I really am curious why you think that. That goes a really long way.

Yeah, yeah. And again, humility, intentionality, and being present to it, right? Big, big things.

Yes.

This has been absolutely fantastic, Kelly. Thank you so much. Could you just remind everybody one more time how they can get a hold of you? Where can they find you?

LinkedIn. They can find me through LinkedIn. I think the link is in the notes.

Fantastic! Kelly, so again, thank you so much. I really appreciate that you were here to share your knowledge, your passion, your expertise. This is such a big topic. And I know that all we've done is just kind of brushed over the top.

Oh yeah, just grazed it.

And maybe one day, we'll get together again. We'll do another show very specific to maybe something that's happening in our reality and what's going on in the world. And I would love that. I'd love to have you back. This has been really, really fantastic.

I would love to come back. This has been so much fun.

I'm glad because I know you were a little nervous.

Live?

We're doing this live?

I was so nervous.

But I mean, this has been really amazing and it's been such a great conversation. I've loved having you on this and I look forward to connecting with you on more stuff.

I would appreciate that.

About how to make workplaces better. So, thank you again for doing this.

Thank you so much, Marc.

If you have any questions about today's episode or would like to have a complimentary 30-minute brainstorming session with you and your team with me, why don't you go ahead and book yourself on my online calendar? The link is down below. It's the one that's marked meetme.so/MarcHaine. And as always, I am at your service. And if you haven't done so yet, why don't you go ahead and subscribe to this podcast? Go ahead, follow me on social media. And don't forget, when you're interacting, don't forget to use the hashtag #ExperienceLeadership. My name is Marc Haine. I hope that you stay safe, stay healthy, and dare to be the exception.