Better Business Practices: How to Transform Your Culture with Michael Kerr

There is a pervasive issue that is silently eroding the very backbone of companies and teams worldwide. You know it's happening in your workplace if you are seeing people quitting, sitting around disengaged, and you haven't seen a new innovation in the office since the Keurig was introduced in the lunchroom. And that's what we're talking about next on Experience Leadership.

Welcome to Experience Leadership, a podcast that challenges small business owners and entrepreneurs just like you to dare to be the exception. Join our host, customer experience expert Marc Haine, as he uncovers relevant and timely content to help you script and direct your business and teams to create jaw-dropping experiences your customers and staff deserve. Here is the host of Experience Leadership, author of Lights! Camera! Action!, customer experience expert Marc Haine.

Welcome to this episode! I am your host, Customer and Employee Experience Strategist Marc Haine. I really appreciate you joining me today. My guest for this episode is workplace culture expert Michael Kerr. And today, we are tackling the hidden yet costly problem that could be holding your business back from reaching its true potential: a disengaged culture. We will share transformative insights and actionable strategies to help you turn around your workplace environment and fuel extraordinary results. So, stay tuned as we explore why culture isn't just part of the game. It is the game. My one ask for you today is if you do know somebody who could use this information, please go ahead and share a link to this episode. Knowledge is power but only if we share it. In my experience, leaders are often caught up in the day-to-day operations focusing on numbers, dealing with the crisis that they have in front of them and putting out fires while the core of their company's success may be quietly deteriorating. It's easy to overlook how the atmosphere in your workplace can directly impact everything from employee satisfaction to your actual bottom line. And that brings us to our Question of the Day. Are there moments when you sense that not everything is as harmonious as it could be? Possibly affecting customer satisfaction and employee retention? Have you noticed signs of disengagement among your team? I'd love for you to be part of this conversation. To do so, go ahead and share a link to this episode on your favorite social media platform. Hashtag it #ExperienceLeadership. Put your comments down. I'd love to interact with you. As I mentioned, I am so excited to have Michael Kerr back on the show. Michael was part of my inaugural year of this podcast. He was, I believe, episode 25 of Marc Haine Live and Experience Leadership, the small business podcast. Michael is a Hall of Fame speaker. He travels the globe, not just speaking, but immersing himself in the cultures of companies big and small to discover what makes them tick or what makes them tank. He's authored 9 game-changing books including The Humor Advantage and The Jerk-Free Workplace, which have become essential reading for leaders striving to craft environments where creativity, productivity, and laughter go hand in hand. With Michael's insight, businesses aren't just laughing all the way to the bank. They're becoming places where people genuinely love to work. Michael, welcome to the show. It's so great to have you.

Thank you, Marc. It is awesome to be back. Can I bring you on the road with me to introduce me at all my events? Like, that was an awesome introduction. Thank you for that.

Well, it's— you deserve it. I called you on social media. I said, the workplace culture phenom.

Well, that's— that is just— that is lovely. I will take that. In fact, I'll take that and run with that. Thank you.

So before we get too deep into today's topic, could you just tell us a little bit about how you serve your clients? Who are your clients? What do you do for them?

Yeah, well, I have a wide range of clients— small companies, mid-sized companies, large corporations. Government agencies, anybody that has a group of human beings, really a group of mammals known as these, these crazy human beings are essentially my clients. I've had the pleasure of speaking in countries all over the world, and I talk primarily no matter what, no matter what the topic, it all feeds up to the importance of workplace culture, why workplace culture matters, why it's your number one competitive advantage, how it affects absolutely every aspect of your organization. And especially how you have to be intentional about it.

So I find that since COVID workplace culture now has become kind of the buzzword. Why is having a good workplace culture more important now than ever before?

I think it's more important now than ever before just because of the pace of change going on in the world, the amount of change and the uncertainty and so many external elements that are happening and Certainly, the amount of competition that's happening when we talk about business, right, that has been more than it ever has been. And so, as I said, culture truly is your number one. I don't care what business you're in or how big or small you are. It is your number one competitive advantage that you can control in a world where there's so many things that we cannot control anymore. You can't help a competitor opening up across the street from you. You can't prevent that. Somebody down the road is going to undercut you on price, perhaps of your products or services down the road. In the other direction, they're going to pay your employees more. What you have to compete on and be relentlessly intentional about is your workplace culture, because we know it drives success. If you want to attract better employees, more employees, and if you want to keep those employees happy and motivated and engaged and offering their ideas and offering great, exceptional customer service and customer experiences, Then we know that starts with a rocking great culture.

And so, I started off the show talking about I find too many leaders are too busy working in the business, not working on the business. And because of that, things change around them. And before they know it, they're looking up and they're seeing attrition and disengagement and so on. For you, what are the first signs that tell you that a workplace culture might be going on to the bad side?

Going on to the dark side.

Going on to the dark side.

Darth Vader walks in one day. You're definitely going to the dark side, Marc. You've hit obviously on one of the big key signs. If you have trouble keeping your employees, that's kind of a red flag, right? So, employee turnover rates obviously is a critically important metric to watch. But there's a lot more than that because often, depending on the markets, on the business that you're in, employees may not be in a position to leave your organization, even though they want to leave your organization. So certainly having your pulse on what employees are truly feeling in your organization is absolutely key. It's astounding how many surveys I see or surveys I've even been involved with in organizations where the senior leadership team has absolutely no clue how the employees are truly feeling. You interview the senior leaders and then you interview the employees and you get very, very different outlooks and perspectives and attitudes about their organization. It's like they're working in 2 different companies. And so, if you want to be aware of what's going on in your workplace culture, you've got to make sure, and not just through surveys. I mean, that can be helpful, but you have to make sure you are truly listening to your employees, communicating with your employees, engaging with them in meaningful ways so you truly Do understand what they are feeling about your workplace before it's too late. And as I say, when employees leave, you know, and companies sometimes do exit interviews to find out what went wrong. Well, I've got a little hint for everyone. It's too late. They've left the building. Elvis has left the building. So you've got to make sure you're doing stay interviews. What will keep you here interviews? What are people truly feeling in your company? Are they truly enthusiastic ambassadors for your organization?

And it's so interesting you say that because so much of what you talk about, especially when it becomes the leaders kind of wanting to tap into the genius that is their team to find out how things are going, you need to be able to have a high level of trust in those environments. And a lot of the bad culture environments actually have incredibly low trust.

Absolutely, yeah. Trust is everything. Trust is absolutely critical. And we found in surveys going through COVID, that was one of the most important values. That rose to the top during COVID during the period when people were shifting to working from home in virtual environments and hybrid situations, trust became that much more important. And those organizations that already had high levels of trust survived a lot better than those companies that didn't perhaps have the level of trust that they needed. But you're right, Marc. I mean, trust is everything. If I'm going to speak up as a frontline employee and ask challenging questions, If I'm going to suggest some pretty kind of crazy, out-there, outrageous ideas, I need to trust that I'm able to do that, that it's a safe environment for me to speak up when I need to speak up. And we know from surveys across every industry that the numbers are abysmal. The percentage of employees who say they do not feel comfortable speaking up, they do not feel comfortable asking questions or suggesting ideas or giving feedback to their boss. The number of people, in fact, who dread And how sad is this, who just dread having a one-on-one conversation with their boss, is abysmal.

Yeah.

You have these initiatives. And, you know, I've always had a kind of a love-hate relationship with HR processes because the HR gives these task lists to these leaders. And it's like, did you do the evaluation? Oh, good. Check. Did you do a one-on-one with them? You scheduled it? Oh, you said you did it. Okay. Check. without really kind of any accountability behind how they work? Or for that matter, did you even train them on how to do one-on-ones?

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Such an important piece of the puzzle too. If you're going to be intentional about your culture, here's one thing we have to remember. Great cultures don't just happen. You can't fake it. You can't go buy your culture at Costco. Even if you did, it probably wouldn't fit. You can't go buy it at IKEA because nobody would understand the instructions and you'd have little parts left over. that no one would know what to do with. You have to be intentional about your culture. Every leader says, oh yeah, yeah, culture is really important to us. Well, is it really? What are you doing to be intentional about your culture? And so, a huge part of that is making sure you are relentlessly hiring with your culture in mind. That means, of course, too, Marc, you have to know what your culture is or what your desired culture is.

Well, it's on a poster, Michael. It's on a poster.

Yeah, yeah, it's on a poster. It's on this sign, right? You get this, you get to put your values on the wall. You get your team together once a year. You get your team together like this once a year, right? And you hold hands and you sing We Are the World because your values make you feel so warm and fuzzy. And you've got the poster with the unicorns and puppies and rainbows. But here's what we have to remember, right? And it's amazing how many examples I find of organizations with the exact same list of values.

Yes.

And yet Company A is rocking it, winning all of those best places to work awards, just rocking it competitively. Company B, not so much. It's a soul-sucking, fun-sucking kind of workplace, right?

Yeah.

So what's going on? Because they've got the same values. And of course, it's those cliché sayings: actions speak louder than words and talk is cheap. And so what great leaders need to do, what great organizations need to do, is make sure those values aren't just wallpaper, that they mean something. We've got to translate what those suckers mean. I mean, look at it this way, Marc. Who disagrees with any of these wonderful values? You have a value like, we believe in teamwork. Oh, isn't that sweet? Like, is there anybody going in for a job interview saying during the job interview, I want you to know I'm not a team player, or safe work environment? Yeah, not for me. I'm a bit of a daredevil. Nobody's gonna say that. So, you need to interpret, okay, what do these really actually mean in terms of everyone's behaviors and attitudes specifically?

And how you treat them as well.

And how you treat them, right? And to turn them into stories. You've got to make sure you're modeling them, of course, relentlessly out loud. And then, you've got to hold your employees accountable for living your values out loud. But also, celebrate and recognize them when they live your values out loud.

And a lot of what we're talking about, the leader is in direct control of all of this. So, how can bosses figure out if the way that they interact with their team or talk to the team is empowering them rather than making people feel safe, or feel left out, or feel unsafe, or feel challenged all the time? Like, how can they figure out if what their own behavior is affecting their team?

Yeah, and it starts with self-awareness, right? And I think it is scary for a lot of leaders to ask that question, to actually ask employees, Hey, can I get some honest feedback from you about my leadership? Is there anything doing that that is driving you kind of nuts? But getting feedback from your employees is absolutely critical. Being self-aware of your behavior, recognizing that as a leader, everything you say and do either adds to your culture or it detracts from your culture in some way. And so, you need to be vulnerable enough to have very honest, open conversations. And you could do that through anonymous surveys. That's part of it. But I think ideally, if you're working on building trust, you want to make sure you're having these open and honest conversations and creating that environment where people know they can speak up and give you honest feedback. And it doesn't have to be overly formal. Going for coffee, making it a conversation so it doesn't have this big weight to it and keeping it simple, right? Just keeping it simple. A simple framework like, Hey, is there anything I should stop doing that would make your life easier as an employee? And anything I should start doing that would make your life easier? And one thing that maybe I'm doing well that you want to make sure I continue, right? Stop, start, continue. Dirt simple framework.

Yep.

But it's essential that you have that self-awareness enough to ask good questions, to ask for feedback, and to be aware, to just be aware and observant. of how people are behaving around you. Are they speaking up in meetings? Are they asking you challenging questions?

And again, part of that is you need high trust. So, if you're in an environment that is not very trustworthy at some point, or people just don't feel comfortable. And the frontline managers will be able to tell the leaders this. The frontline managers will be able to say, hey, whenever you're having a bad day, everybody's stepping on eggshells. So, if you can't talk to your team, talk to other leaders within your organization. And say is, are there times when I seem unapproachable?

Yes. Yeah, that's it, right? Yeah, it's about being approachable. In my book, Small Moments, Big Outcomes, I referenced this study, a Harvard study where they looked at what was the biggest predictor of success in terms of predicting a leader's success. What was that going to be? And they were kind of surprised by what they found in the research. It wasn't any of the things they expected it would be. The number one thing they found that predicted a leader's success, a leader's effectiveness, a future leader's effectiveness was simply this. And the term that they used in this research was they were positive energizers. Now, they don't mean that in some woo-woo new age kind of way. They just meant that they were positive leaders. They made people feel good about themselves. They passed along positive energy to other people. They were attentive with them. They were focused. They were present when they were talking to employees. They made employees feel good about themselves. They demonstrated actively that they cared about the employee beyond just the widget that shows up for 8 hours at work to do their jobs. And the simple litmus test is, as a leader, do you think employees are happier to see you come into the room Or are they happier to see you when you leave the room? In fact, there's this study that cracks me up, Marc, where they measured employees' blood pressure when their bosses were at work versus when their bosses were away from the office. And of course, what they found is that in a lot of cases, people's blood pressure was higher just when the boss was in the office. Now, I don't know about you. I don't know about anyone watching this. I would feel pretty horrible if I knew just my presence was causing people's blood pressure to spike.

Yep. And you know, it's so funny that because it's pervasive in a lot of workplaces, especially with people who have leaders who are our age, you know, the baby boomers, the last of the baby boomers who are still out there dominating with the carrot and stick, right?

Absolutely. Hasn't— I, I was just on a podcast earlier where There was a CEO talking about the transformative power of culture in her organization. And she talked about how it just wasn't on anybody's radar even 10 years ago, 15 years ago, and how it's a relatively new thing. But when you intentionally focus on your culture, that's when the magic happens. And that's what happened in her example.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'd love to tap into some more action steps that leaders can take to help kind of shift this mindset. Into this idea of culture, and we'll get to that right after this.

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Welcome back! I am speaking with the phenom known as Michael Kerr. Yes, you, Michael. You here.

You.

Hey, Michael, tell us a little bit more about your book because it's just hit Amazon, right?

Yes.

And so, it's available for purchase now. Tell us a little bit about it.

Well, it's called Small Moments, Big Outcomes: How Leaders Create Cultures That Fuel Extraordinary Results. So, it's as much about leadership as it is about workplace culture. And really, the intent of this book was for leaders at any level in an organization or culture leaders, culture managers. There are more and more of those positions in organizations or anyone really just interested in building a better culture. The primary goal of this book is to encourage leaders to think of themselves as not just a leader, And I talk about what that means to really, truly be an inspiring leader and not just a manager. I'm not knocking managers. We need managers. Some of my best friends are managers. But we also need people to be intentional as a leader if you're going to drive success. But not just intentional as a leader. This whole book is selling the idea that you need to now in 2024 and forevermore think of yourself as a culture leader if you're going to be successful. So I go into all of the components of what makes a healthy, rocking, collaborative, resilient, inspiring workplace culture. The importance of living your values out loud and how to do that. The importance of connecting employees to a sense of purpose. Communication, which is so important, right? Everything is communication and communication is everything. The importance of meetings to build your culture. The importance of recognition and appreciation and the importance of bringing more fun and humor into the workplace. And it's packed full of examples from companies around the world that are putting this into practice. So it's not just theoretical. Readers can see that these ideas actually work. People implement them and amazing results happen. Who knew that when you implement ideas, things actually happen?

We've talked about humility. We've talked about trust. We've talked about communication. Are there any other aspects that lend itself to great culture that leaders or the audience should be aware of?

Yeah, there are several elements. And I already— if we think of it chronologically, we've touched on this already a little bit. But certainly, the importance of getting your hiring right is 90% of the battle. You have to. And I know tight labor markets, right, that it's easy to just hold up the old mirror and do the fog test or see if the person has a pulse and say, you're hired. You cannot get away with that. If you want to build a great workplace, you need to invest relentlessly in your hiring, in your onboarding, in selling your culture before they've even started to work with you so they understand what your cultural norms are, what your values are, and relentlessly hire for attitude and for people who are going to grow your culture. And then you need to train those people on your culture and your existing people. You need to offer training on your values and not a slide on a PowerPoint presentation that talks about culture and your values. You need to train in an in-depth way about what your culture is all about. And then you've got to relentlessly keep it alive. You've got to be intentional about your culture. So as a leader, that means, I think, getting into the habit of anytime you make a decision, anytime you make a decision, don't just think about your customers, don't just think about your bottom line and all— yes, all that stuff is important. Always ask yourself, how is this decision going to help us build our desired culture? And does it reflect our desired culture? So get in that habit. And then some of the key elements for sure. One is your meetings and why I dedicate an entire chapter in the book on the importance of meetings, because meetings are a critical touchpoint in your organization. Meetings are a critical culture touchpoint. Meetings should reflect your desired culture, but also help you build your desired culture. And so many people complain about meetings, right? They dread going to these soul-sucking, fun-sucking meetings. Well, meetings shouldn't be soul-sucking. You're doing them wrong, folks, if your meetings are dreadful places to be. They should be full of energy and they should be fun because we know that generates better ideas and better conversations. Makes people feel welcome and comfortable. So, if you want to start down this path of being more intentional about your culture, get your meetings right and use those as a stepping stone to build a better workplace. Recognition is another huge piece of the puzzle. If you talk to any leader in any organization, especially ones where they have transformed their culture, they will always talk about the importance of recognition. And not just top-down recognition. Building this into your culture where it becomes peer-to-peer recognition, where it becomes the norm for everyone to appreciate and celebrate and thank one another and recognize one another for the outstanding work they are doing. But make sure you tie it back to your culture, to your values. And then, of course, fun. I mean, I'm the author of a book called The Humor Advantage: Why Some Businesses Are Laughing All the Way to the Bank. So we got to talk about fun, Marc. I mean, that's an important element. Work is too important in our lives to take seriously. Work has a huge impact. on our marriages, our family lives, our mental and physical health, our identity. It's a wee bit of a time sucker, we may have noticed, right? It's the single biggest use of your waking hours in this short journey called life. So, hey, let's make sure we're enjoying the journey. And as I talk about in both books, if you embrace the spirit of fun in your workplace, all the numbers move in the right direction. It has been shown to be positively correlated to lower employee turnover rates and absenteeism rates and better morale and more resiliency in your workplace. And it ties into better creativity and innovation scores. So everything moves in the right direction. And as I always say, hey, even if adding more humor and fun into your workplace doesn't get you the results I suggest it will, what would you rather have? The same level of success and less fun, or the same level of success And at least a little bit more fun. I mean, it seems like a no-brainer question to me.

I don't know anybody who's left their jobs because, you know, I go to work every day, but it's just way too much fun. You know, I just, I just, I just really that much fun in a day. It's like I just can't handle it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

One of the things I talk about in this book too is this concept of deep fun. So yes, there's all sorts of ideas that I talk about all the time in terms of simple little things you can do. to make a more fun workplace. Third Person Thursdays, where everybody refers to themselves by their own name, right? These stupid little ideas like this that don't cost any money, don't cost any time, but they make a huge difference. So I talk about the small things we can do to weave more fun and levity and humanity, because that's really what we're talking about, into the workplace. But this concept of deep fun, this is this notion that if we take the perspective, and it's especially important as leaders. If you take the perspective that coming up with new ideas to outthink your competitors, to outgrow your competitors is fun, that coming up with ideas to engage your employees and build a stronger culture is fun, coming up with ideas to rock it with your— as you know, Marc, to rock it with your customer experience and customer service is fun. Leading people Ought to be fun. It is fun. And if you take that approach, that, hey, this is fun to do all this stuff, then how could you not be more successful?

Right.

It just changes your whole mindset, doesn't it? Instead of waking up every day going, oh God, I have to go to work, it's like, oh, I, I get to go to work. Yeah. It's like the weekend comes, it's like, oh gosh darn it, I wish I could have a weekend shift. Okay, that never happens.

Never mind.

Hey Michael, for people who this might be resonating for, how can people get in touch with you if they want to touch base with you and get your book or hire you?

First of all, might be resonating with them. Might be, Marc.

I hope.

You know, it's right.

Might be. You just never know. I mean, I think I might have a few grumpy people on my audience list.

What?

So I don't know. But, you know, maybe what people can do is put in the chat, I am not the grumpy one.

I'm not the grumpy one. Yes. Thank you, Marc, for that. People can reach me at my web— through my website. mikekerr.com, M-I-K-E-K-E-R-R dot com. You're welcome to sign up at the bottom of my homepage. I have a weekly newsletter that goes out that talks about all the stuff I've been talking about here today. Lots of fun in it. Lots of great relevant tips for folks. And if you want to send me an email with a question or anything, my email is mike@mikekerr.com. Perfect.

I do know that the businesses that I tend to cross paths with The bosses are at a point where they know something's wrong. They don't have an idea on how to fix it. But they do want to fix it. And so, how important is it for bosses to be clear that improving culture is one of their strategic goals?

Yeah, it's very important. As we've been talking about, it's everything to be aware that culture has to be treated as a priority. I've interviewed hundreds of leaders around the globe. And one of the questions I always ask is that standard question. So, what's been more important to your success? Your strategy, your business strategy, or your culture? 98% of them without missing a beat say, oh, it's our culture. Culture drives everything. Not discounting the importance of strategy. Strategy is pretty important if you're running a business. But we've got to make sure they're integrated. And in fact, there's research that shows integrating culture into your strategy more intentionally, better, makes a huge difference.

Yes.

And vice versa, your strategy should inform your culture. But all of these leaders tell me time and time again, when we intentionally shifted our focus to culture, when we intentionally shifted to make our employees the number one priority, that is when our business exploded. That is when the magic happened and everything started to move in the right direction. So, you first and foremost need to truly embrace the idea that this should be treated as your number one priority. And then make sure you get your employees involved. Get your employees involved as much as you can. You want their support. You want them to be culture champions for you. You cannot do this alone as a leader. You cannot do this even with a brilliant leadership team. You need to get all of your employees thinking like a leader. You need to get all of your employees thinking about how they're contributing to the culture. Are they adding to your culture or subtracting from your culture. In fact, a lot of organizations, some of my clients now, they assess their employees. They tell their employees that 50% of their assessment, 50%, half, I believe that is, is going to be based on how they are contributing to a positive workplace culture.

So good.

Not just assessing them on their job, on their skills, on their talent. Are you doing— what are you doing actively to make this a great place to work for the rest of your teammates?

And there are so many examples of really great initiatives where we celebrate excellence. We celebrate generosity. We celebrate the positive values that we want to represent, right? There are so many of them.

Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There are so many things you can do and so many fun things you can do with all of this, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. So, oh, Jennifer's comments were hidden behind us. Jennifer said that she is not the grumpy one.

Do we know which Jennifer this is?

There we go. Oh, of course, Jennifer. Jennifer is never grumpy. I have never seen her grumpy. She's never grumpy.

I know Jennifer. I love Jennifer. She's not grumpy. She's never grumpy.

Nice to have you, Jennifer. Thanks for tuning in. Hey, we hear a lot about psychological safety. And again, this seems to be when you talk about well-being in the workplace and psychological safety. What does it mean for leaders to be focused on things like psychological safety?

Yeah, and I talk about that in the book, Marc, a lot. Psychological safety and belonging. And to me, those 2 things kind of go— they're not exactly the same thing, but I think they go hand in hand. In fact, in my chapter on communication, I talk about the importance of looking at all of your communication through those lenses. Are you communicating in such a way? And I'm talking about everything, whether it's an email message you send out, Whether it's a formal presentation, whether you're in your meetings, one-on-one conversations, are you giving your employees a sense of true belonging so they feel like they fit in in your workplace? And not just fit in, right? There's a difference between fitting in and truly feeling like you belong. Fitting in implies that maybe I have to change something about my personality. Well, not me because I'm adorable. I don't have to change. But for other people, right, they think, do I have to change something about myself? Do I have to speak in a different way, put on an artificial mask? In order to fit into this company or in this team. Whereas true belonging is accepting people for who they are, for who they are. And of course, we want people to be their best selves at work. But do we make sure they truly do feel like they belong? And do they feel psychologically safe? So it goes back to our conversation earlier. Do they feel safe to be themselves, to bring themselves to work? And on that note, by the way, when I've interviewed employees, And ask them, hey, why is this workplace the best place you've ever worked? Because you've told me that. The answer I get 9 times out of 10, it's the same answer. They always say, this is the first place where I feel like I can be myself at work, where I can bring my true authentic self to work and I don't have to fake things. So, it does have a real impact on morale. But the psychological safety goes back to that conversation. Do people feel safe? Safe enough to come to their boss with problems, with observations, to point out a performance issue, a safety issue, to ask really uncomfortable questions, to suggest really outrageous, crazy ideas without fear of being laughed at or ridiculed, or even worse, being punished or being told, you know, we don't pay you for your ideas, we don't pay you to think around here. So, there's a lot that goes into that. topic of psychological safety and belonging. But it starts with communication and you as a leader, again, being very open and vulnerable. And there are companies, by the way, and I love some of the creative awards that companies come up with. There's awards like the Exalted Order of the Extended Neck Award that goes to an employee that asks the most uncomfortable question of senior leaders. And this has to be voted on by the peers, by the frontline employees, right, for it to work. But that is a way of encouraging those behaviors you want more of. And it sends a powerful message. We want you to speak up. We want you to challenge us. That's how we're going to keep getting better. So ask us those tough questions. Bring us those great ideas. But turning it into a fun recognition award can help encourage people and send the message that, yeah, we want you. We want you to do that.

Again, you know, it's Intentionality on the leader's front. You mentioned things like emails and meetings. And I know a lot of people use emails when they're pissed off about something. Or let's have a meeting because I just want to ream everybody in. How does a leader check themselves? Because again, this requires a lot of intentionality. We talk a lot in leadership circles around this idea of emotional intelligence, understanding how we react. to certain things. But what is it that leaders can do to check themselves before sending off an email because they're frustrated or calling an impromptu meeting because they're pissed off? What do they need to do?

Yeah, well, again, it goes back to self-awareness. And especially on the email front, there's just a whack of research that shows employees' reactions to getting an email from the boss that isn't maybe worded the most positively Or they— it's hard to interpret an email, right? Yes, it's hard to. There's a study that suggests 50% of all emails have a tonal issue. We don't know what your tone— are you mad at me or not? Why aren't you excited about this? Why are you using exclamation marks? Why aren't you using exclamation marks? Right. So especially when it comes to email, first of all, first and foremost, if it's anything remotely serious, don't send an email. Don't send a text message. Either get on the phone or better still, talk face to face. And if employees are remote, hop on a Zoom call so you can see the body language and connect face-to-face as much as you can. But when you are sending emails, be especially aware as the boss of your tone, how you might be coming across. Be aware that there are studies that show that when employees don't hear a response from you to an email they have sent you, they take that home with them and it niggles away in their minds overnight. It's a huge source of stress. But again, circling back to that intentionality thing, and in terms of your question of checking yourself, one of the things I'm a huge fan of is daily leadership intentions. And I know some really successful leaders that swear by this, where they have a few key things that they want to work on, habits that they want to form, or behaviors that they want to make sure they're doing. So they turn it either into a checklist or into an intention list. So they have a list. I don't suggest having a huge list because You're going to fail right away. But maybe 3 or 4 things that you really want to work on as a leader. Create that list. Give it a lot of thought. Be as specific as possible. And then every day, whether it's sitting in your car in the parking lot for 30 seconds or a minute, or sitting at your desk when you get in your office, review the list. Don't do it in a half-assed way. Review it seriously. Go through this checklist. And then at the end of the day, look back and review that checklist again. And create a little scorecard for yourself. You're not always going to hit your marks every day, but are you the majority of time doing what you want to do, committing to yourself these commitments that you have set up for yourself? Are you hitting these the majority of the time? And if so, I'd suggest in the eyes of your employees, your perception of leadership is going to just get better and better and stronger and stronger. Yeah.

What do you think about actually publishing the list? If you've created the strategy, you publish the list to your employees and you say, hey, this is what my intentionality for the next— for this, for today. Please call me out if you find me tripping.

I think that's a really, really great idea. I think it's an awesome idea. It's— you're being open and transparent with your employees. You're helping them hold you accountable. So, it's not just you holding yourself accountable. And it's letting them know what your leadership style And I talk about this in my book too, that, that, that's something that you can do is actually share your leadership profile with your team. In other words, write up a doc. It doesn't have to— it shouldn't be a book. It shouldn't be a massive document.

Manifesto.

But a one-page outline even that just outlines your leadership style. What's important to you? How do you like to be communicated to? How do you prefer to communicate with other people? What drives you nuts? What pisses you off? Put it all in there. But just be open about, hey, this is my leadership style. And I think that's a brilliant thing to do.

Love it! When we come back, I'd like to talk about some cautionaries and pitfalls for the people who this really resonates with them. They know they have to make a change, but maybe there's some things they need to be careful of. And we'll get to that right after this.

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As you can tell, Michael and I are hugely committed to serving business leaders just like you. So, if you would like to explore how we could be of benefit, especially if you're planning a leadership retreat or a conference, drop us a line. Our contact details are in the show notes. Michael, so much of what we've been talking about today, this idea about bringing fun into the workplace. What's a good way for a boss to bring fun into the workplace without losing respect, without looking like they're Michael Scott from The Office?

Right, right. I often bring up that example, right? Yeah, yeah. Don't try too hard. Especially if you're not funny. And remember, when we talk about humor, we're not talking about necessarily being funny. We're certainly not talking about telling jokes or being the office clown. It's about being more human, more real. It's about laughing at the things that you have no control over. And especially as a boss, this is so important. Laughing at yourself more. As I remind my audiences, when you take yourself overly serious, the reality becomes that no one around you is taking you seriously. Because you're taking yourself so bloody seriously. So especially as a boss, it's important to be able to lighten up and show people that you can laugh at your own bloopers. And laugh at yourself though in a confident way, not in a way where you're trying to be like Michael Scott and ingratiate yourself with your teams in a weird kind of way, but where you can just truly be vulnerable and say, hey, you know what? I did a bonehead thing. I just screwed up, and have a good laugh. at your own expense. That sends the tone, right? As a leader, you are the conductor in your workplace. You set the environment, you set the tone, the music. And so laughing at yourself is hugely important. If you're not naturally funny, you don't— and it's not about being an extrovert either, by the way. Some of the most effective leaders I've interviewed around the globe are very much introverts. So it's not about being an extrovert. It's just, again, about being more human. But look for those opportunities and make sure as a boss you aren't stepping on the natural humor that's just going to happen, right? If you set a light tone, humor takes care of itself, right? It just happens throughout the day as long as you're not squashing it, as long as you're not creating an overly oppressive environment. But a couple of key things that you can do to send the message that you are okay with humor and a little bit more fun in the workplace. Again, I go back to meetings. Make sure your meetings are fun places to be. That sends a powerful message that will flow out to the entire culture if you bring more fun into your meetings. So you open up with a fun icebreaking thing. Yeah, like those people are doing. You get up and you have everyone spell their names using only the movement of their hips. Or you ask a quirky question to open up with a laugh. Or you do a theater improv exercise. To get people warmed up in a fun way. There's so many fun things you can do to bring more levity into your meetings. And we know even a Scientific America study, for goodness sakes, found that the most effective meetings are those meetings that have high levels of fun in them. So make sure you're leveraging your meetings. And then the second place, really simple place to add more humor, is to again create some fun recognition awards that are just strictly fun. You know, the Houdini Award to whoever magically made a big problem disappear. The Survivor Award for the person least likely to be voted off the island. The Jackass Whisperer Award for whoever— I love this one— for whoever is best at calming down irate customers.

Perfect.

Just, just, you know, has that ability, that soothing voice, who can just talk to anybody. The Jackass Whisperer Award. So create some fun awards. And that's Sends a powerful message and is a really simple way of infusing more fun throughout your culture.

So a leader wants to take some of these suggestions and implement them. What should they be cautious of as they try to lighten things up, create a more higher-trust work environment, and really work on workplace culture? What do they need to be concerned with?

The first thing I would say is the possibility of resistance, right? Nobody— well, very few people, very few people like change. So if this is a big change for you and you're trying to impose it in a top-down way, you're going to probably get some resistance. So again, I go back to this idea that the more you can involve your employees, the more you can engage your employees in the process and sell the benefits of this and get them excited about the opportunities and why you're doing this, and then create some scorecards and Celebrate the milestones, but make sure you're bringing everyone along with you, that you are not imposing this in a top-down way. Another cautionary note I would suggest is momentum and keeping it up. Everybody gets excited for the first week, and then what happens? Reality hits. Life gets too busy. You get too busy as a leader, and it kind of trails off. You start these— I'm a huge fan, Marc, of traditions and rituals in the workplace because that helps create a stronger culture. It gives everyone a sense of history in their organization, gives everybody something to look forward to and something to reminisce about. All the great workplaces I've gone into around the world, huge, huge fans of traditions and rituals. And there's all sorts of fun ones. And that's, that's another great way to infuse more fun into your workplace. But you have to keep them going. And when you keep them going, they work. You have to get through that period where some of your employees are maybe rolling their eyes thinking, this is so stupid, this is lame, this is corny. You have to push on. You have to make sure you are doing it consistently. And so that's probably one of my biggest cautionary notes is you've got to sustain this. It's got to be sustainable. Your ideas need to be sustainable and you need to keep the momentum going so that it's not just the flavor of the month.

Yes. Yeah. And so, a perfect way to do that is take a look at budget time because budget time, everybody's nose is on the grindstone. So then, if you're going to create an initiative, say, ask yourself, so during budget time, how am I going to keep this up? And if you say, oh gosh, I'm going to be too busy, then you better not start it.

Right, right, right. Well, and that's a great example too, right? I always remind people that at those times when you're most busy, Those are the times you most need to be aware of your behaviors, how you're communicating your values. Are you truly living your values out loud when the things are the craziest? And when you are most busy, those are the times when you most need to take a break and celebrate. When you most need an infusion of fun and energy into your workplace.

And your team needs it too. The team needs the break as well. They need that.

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about with the entire team.

Yeah.

This has been fantastic, which I knew. I knew that I knew this was going to be a stellar discussion, Michael. Do you have any last thoughts about what we've been talking about today? Anything that we haven't covered that you think the audience should know?

I want to remind everyone again of just that notion that work has a huge impact on your life. And especially for the leaders watching, you have a disproportionate impact on your employees' happiness, on their stress levels, on their lives. You affect their family lives. Whether you know it or not, you affect their marriages. For your employees that are married, you affect their health, their mental and physical health. You have a disproportionate impact on your business, on your employees' happiness, on your customers' happiness. So, I challenge you to just think about what you want your legacy as a leader to be. We're given on average, as I open my book with, about 4,000 weeks. in this rollicking journey called life. And it doesn't sound like a lot, right, Marc?

It doesn't.

Yeah. Yeah.

When you think about it.

4,000 weeks. And I think you and I have used up more than half of our weeks, Marc. I hate to tell you this. And the weeks are going by fast. You just had a week last week and it went by pretty fast. And this week is going by pretty fast. So, what do you want to do in the time you've been given? What do you want your legacy as a leader to be? What legacy do you want to leave behind in your team, in your organization? So I challenge you to step up as a leader. What does that mean to you? And what does that mean to you to intentionally build a more humane, compassionate workplace culture?

Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful.

I would just add, it's never too late to start. It's never too early to start. It's never too late to start. Some of the great success stories I share in my book are from leaders that where they started, where they had epiphanies in their 60s. About how they wanted to run their company.

Yes.

I got to change things up. We're going to focus on our people now and make this an incredible place to work.

Yeah. It's almost like at some point, especially like in the baby boomer realm, they clawed their way to the top by stepping on everything and everybody. And then, they got to the top and it's like, wait a second. This culture doesn't work.

Yeah.

What have we been doing?

We've been eating our young here.

Have we been stupid?

Somehow, it didn't work.

Could you remind everybody one more time how they can get a hold of you, Michael?

Yes, thank you, Marc. It's, uh, www.mikekerr.com gets you there, and my email address is mike@mikekerr.com. Operators are not standing by, but they're close by.

Yeah, they quit. They quit. They thought you were too silly and they quit. And how can people get hold of your book?

They can— well, right now it's only available on Amazon, so if you cruise over to Amazon Amazon in whatever country you're in. You will find it there in both Kindle format and paperback format.

And I encourage you, don't just get the one book. Really look at Michael's other books as well because number one, they're hilarious. But they're with so much great leadership advice to help make you better. Thank you so much, Michael, for taking time out today. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. I can't believe the time has gone by so quickly. Thank you.

Thank you, Marc, as have I. It's been a fabulous conversation. I hope everyone got some great tips and value out of it. Thank you, Marc.

I really appreciate you. Why don't you let me know if this was of value to you? As always, my offer stands. If you would like 30 minutes of my time to brainstorm your business with you and your team, feel free to book yourself on my online calendar. The link is in the show notes. It's the one that's marked meetwith.marchaine.com. It would be my absolute honor To be of service to you. And while you're at it, why don't you go ahead and leave a comment or review about this episode? I'd love to get your feedback. Was this of value to you? And of course, if you haven't done so yet, why don't you go ahead, click the subscribe button. Make sure that you get notified every time I bring you fresh new content each and every week with brilliant guests just like Michael Kerr. Well, maybe not as brilliant as Michael Kerr because he's like top. He's a phenom. Thanks again for joining me. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and I hope you dare to be the exception.

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