Break the Drama Cycle: Leadership Strategies That Work with Robyn Hatcher

Every day, your business is losing hours of productivity. Not to broken systems or bad strategies, but to something far more insidious—

drama.

Yes, workplace drama. The kind that sneaks in disguised as things like misunderstandings, micromanaging, gossip, and oh yes, Those infamous passive-aggressive emails. And that's what we're talking about today on Experience Leadership.

Welcome to Experience Leadership, a podcast that challenges small business owners and entrepreneurs just like you to dare to be the exception. Join our host, Customer Experience Expert Marc Haine, as he uncovers relevant and timely content To help you script and direct your business and teams to create jaw-dropping experiences your customers and staff deserve. Here is the host of Experience Leadership, author of Lights! Camera! Action!, customer experience expert Marc Haine.

Welcome to this episode. I am your host, customer and employee experience strategist Marc Haine, and I am so glad That you are with us today. My guest for this episode is communication expert Robin Hatcher. And today, we are putting a spotlight on how workplace drama silently drains your team's time, energy, and productivity, and what you as a leader can do to stop it. I do have one simple request though. If somebody in your circle could benefit from the insights that we're sharing with you today, Please do them a favor and pass along a link to this episode. You know me, I've always said knowledge is power, but it's only powerful if we share it. So, I have to ask you, have you ever walked into work ready to conquer the day only to find yourself stuck refereeing a petty squabble between team members? Or maybe you've noticed your once productive team has hit a standstill because of Constant misunderstandings, unspoken tensions, or I dare say gossip. Maybe people are just too hung up on who's the last person who used the Keurig and didn't change out the pod. You're not alone. Research shows that drama costs the average employee 2.5 hours a day. That's a month of wasted time every single year. Time that could be spent driving results, hitting goals, and moving towards a better business. But here's the twist. Drama isn't always loud and obvious. It can be quiet, sneaky, and baked right into your team's dynamic. And if you're honest, you might even see some of it in how maybe you communicate. And that brings us to our Question of the Day. So, how much time, energy, and productivity in your business are you losing every day to drama? And could you be unintentionally fueling it by yourself? I'd love for you to share your experience. Go ahead and share this episode on your favorite social media platform. Hashtag it #ExperienceLeadership. Put down your comments because I'd love to hear your voice as part of this conversation as well. As I mentioned, my guest today is someone who knows all about drama. Not just the kind that plays out in your workplace but the kind that lights up your TV screen. Robin Hatcher is a dynamic communications expert, keynote speaker, and consultant whose unique journey has taken her from acting roles on things like Law Order: The Blacklist to writing for iconic soap operas like All My Children and One Life to Live. But here's a twist. While she's used to creating drama for a living, today she's on a mission to remove it from your workplace and your life. With a powerful framework rooted in her Actor Types Communication System, And decades of experience training professionals at companies like JPMorgan, Spotify, PayPal. Robin has helped leaders uncover the hidden triggers behind workplace conflict and equips them with strategies to foster connection, collaboration, and clarity. Robin, it is so great to have you on the show.

Thank you, Marc. It's so great to be here. I'm looking forward to this conversation.

So before we get too deep into the topic today, Could you tell us a little bit about how you serve your clients, who your clients are, and ultimately, what is the outcomes?

Great. My sweet spot and who I love working with are emerging leaders in so many different— you name some of the companies I work for and with. And I love working with emerging leaders who are sort of sitting in that sweet spot in the middle, who will be the leaders of the future. And I've worked for tech companies. I work for financial services companies. I work for insurance companies. I work for just a global industrial products company. So I'm pretty industry agnostic, but I love working with leaders and women to really make sure that they step up and do things right.

I love that. You know, and I love the fact that, you know, this idea of actually niching it down into kind of serving women in the workplace as well, because I think in a lot of different areas, I feel that the voice gets robbed. You know, I go back to, you know, all the iconic books that have been written, like the one from the past Facebook CEO. Yeah. She talks about, you know, the importance of being able to be at the table and to actually hear your voice. We also hear lots of things and, you know, the political— even in the political realm, right? Having Kamala Harris run for president of the United States. And if she's too hard, she's labeled in a bad way. If she acts like, quote unquote, a man, Then it comes off differently and it's like, oh, I don't know why she's such a, you know, and people judge her based on that. And we see this in the workplace all the time. We're, we're seeing that if a woman, a woman is vocal or pushy on kind of raising her flag to bring opinions forward, that she gets labeled. But then at the same token, if she doesn't, then she's a pushover and invisible in the workplace. And we can see that in different personality types as well. So why is this such an issue in today's day and age?

Yeah, I know. I'm always so surprised. Like, there's such a fine line between being assertive and being aggressive, and women have to work it from so many different angles. And it's frankly, it's exhausting because I'll tell you what, it's funny that you use the word invisible because one of my keynotes is called Invisible to Invaluable. And so I really feel like there are so many instances where people feel invisible in the workplace. And it's interesting because sometimes It's our own mindset that makes us invisible. And sometimes it is the external circumstances that see— don't see you or don't recognize your value. And the interesting thing is like I've delved into brain science, I know, because I really wanted to get to the bottom of why things are so wacky, why perceptions are so stuck, you know, how we're perceived is like stuck. And, and one of the things that, you know, most brain scientists and people who delve in brain science talk about all the time is that our brain is designed to survive. And so its main focus is on survival. And when you are focused on survival, you start to weed out, you start to see things that either are going to help my survival or going to hinder my survival. They're going to either help me or they're going to hurt me. And so I feel like a lot of times what happens in the workplace is people see women who may be softer, They're used to their mothers being nurturing. They're used to women's voices being higher pitched. They're used to the femininity of females. And so the instinct is, oh, they can't help me. So let me just ignore them and not even actually look, look at them. And let me look at something that is going to help me survive. You can help me to survive outside of the workplace because you can bring me offspring, but inside of the workplace, you're not actually helping me to survive. So, there's a part of my brain that is going to turn off and say, eh, you know, I can ignore you.

And then you add to it the variable of now competition in the workplace where, you know, you have people within teams and everybody wants to stand up and be the rock star and be the one maybe up for the next promotion or goodness knows what else. And I can understand that, you know, at the same token, as much as we talk about collaboration and contribution and so on, that inherently workplaces are competitive. So do you think that when we think about this idea of workplace drama, do you think that that's like a contributing factor to, um, to what's going on?

Oh yeah.

It's interesting because again, with the survival, it's like, if, if you win, then I can't win. I have to jump over you in order to win. But the interesting thing is when I dissected writing for the soap operas, like you said, I wrote for One Life to Live and All My Children. And when I dissected what goes into writing drama, the main thing that you're taught is conflict creates drama. And what is conflict? Conflict is when 2 people want different things or the same thing, and something's in the middle. There's an obstacle in the middle. So what happens often in the workplace is I want one thing, you want another thing. You then become my obstacle or the— The image becomes my obstacle, or the rules become my obstacle. So the interesting— the other thing that I learned about the differences or the comparisons between workplace drama and soap writing is that, you know, in soap writers, most people don't know that there are 2 teams of writers that write for the soaps. One writes the outline or the breakdowns that they're called. The outline is what is supposed to happen within the week. And then there's a whole nother team that writes the individual scripts.

Mm-hmm.

Now, when I think about drama, how it becomes formed is that breakdown writer is like the CEO. It's like the leadership team. It's like the owner of the company. You create an outline for what you think the episode or your office or your department or your company is supposed to be. You write this outline. This is what happens here. This is what happens. But then, You deal with all these individuals who show up to your office. They're writing their own scripts. You know, it's like their scripts. And then it's like, oh, but the outline says this. Mm, I don't like that. I'm going to rewrite that script. I'm going to do this. And then it's like, oh, but you're going against the outline. So, so it really becomes very conflict and drama heavy when you've got 2 conflicting values, 2 conflicting wants.

Mm-hmm.

And the thing about what makes soap operas so compelling is that the characters will do anything, just like you were talking about the men in competition and the women in competition too. Soap opera characters will do anything to get what they want. You know, they will do anything it takes to overcome obstacles. They will kill their twin. They will come back as their twin. You know, they will under— you know, they will do whatever it takes. And often in the workplace, that's what we do. We do whatever it takes to get what we want. And that's when we start to create drama. And some people aren't as forceful as, say, like one of those characters in a soap. So they do it in passive-aggressive ways. They're gonna figure out how I can undermine you and still get what I want.

Yeah.

It's really an interesting dynamic because as much as people wanna turn around and say, you know, oh no, we're highly collaborative and, you know, we value everybody's contribution and so on. We do end up with all these different things. And to your point, listening to what you were saying, and the word kind of clarity comes into mind of if the CEO is really clear and creates a lot of clarity around kind of what the objectives are and helps paint pictures within the teams, though, that also has to translate from the team leader down into the individual teams. And if the team leader themselves are turning around and going, well, the CEO wants this, but finance is holding us back. Now we have to do production. And, and now I can see that, you know, because of that, because of kind of the internal almost silos, right, is, is maybe a driving cause for this as well.

That is such a huge, huge point because there's a Chinese saying that I love, the fish rots from the head down.

Yeah. And it's funny because you just said it was a Chinese saying and I understood every word you said. It was great.

Amazing. You know, it's universal. So the interesting thing is that the CEO, the clarity is so important in getting that message down and really in living and standing by that message is so important. I just worked with a team company the other day because we'd done a whole workshop training with them, and they were the most burnt-out company I've ever seen. Every single one of them. Were stressed, overworked. And what it came down to— and finally, it's like, we're at this workshop, and my assistant and I is like, why are they all so focused on this? There was not enough clarity. There was no clarity. Nobody knew what their job description was. Nobody knew what their responsibilities were because they didn't know their job. So somebody would do something and then give it to somebody else. It's like, oh, I guess I have to do it because I don't know that I don't have to do it.

Right.

You know, so it's like, that clarity is so important. The other thing about that clarity is like, yes, you've written the rules, then you have to live by them. You know, so many times, like I said, that I work with a lot of middle managers and emerging leaders. So, I'll give this great training, but then they don't see it replicated in their senior leaders. They don't see it replicated in their CEO. They don't see it supported by the upper-level leaders. And therefore, so then they get to the point, it's like, why am I going to do this?

Right.

You know, why should I do this if they're not doing it? I don't see how it works. And again, so then that creates that conflict, where it's like, they can't, like, go up to the CEO and say, you're not communicating the way I want you to communicate. But what they will do is they'll go to their team member and say, you know, no, I don't feel like doing that, or, you did this all wrong, you know? So, it just seeps down, and it's like nothing changes.

And then, and then from the leadership perspective, they end up kind of seeing the symptom of that, is nobody's taking initiative. Nobody's fulfilling and going through and delivering on time. People are, they're coming with stupid questions. I don't know. This is so easy. This is, this is common sense.

Yeah.

But those are all just all symptoms of something that's much, much bigger.

It's symptoms of something much bigger. And it's also a symptom of the fact that we are so completely different people. And one of the things that I believe is at the root cause of so many of our challenges is that we don't understand the differences, the communication differences, the value differences, all of those differences. And so that's another thing that reverts back to my soap writing days. Before I could write for any soap, I had to study what is called a show Bible.

Mm-hmm.

And a show Bible is the history of everything that's happened to that character, to the show on the show. Whether who they were married, who they married, when they got divorced, how many kids they have, how many kids died, how many— all of that is in a show Bible, which then is going to affect how they act and interact. Now, we all come with our own show Bibles, and no one sits down to study them. And so what happens is you go into the office and you give the directions of your CEO, of your leaders, like, I'm going to give this direction to Marc, to Robin, and to Susan. Same direction. Now, I want you to execute. Well, Marc's going to do it his way. Susan's going to do it her way. And Robin's going to do it her way. And that's based on how we were raised, what we thought, what our experiences were. Like, maybe we did the job before in another business, and now we know that's the way it's done. Or maybe we're really afraid of numbers, and we didn't understand what you were asking me, and I wasn't comfortable to ask you to clarify. So then, just like you said, they go back and they say, oh my God, Susan is such a slacker, and Robin has absolutely no idea what she's doing. Marc, he's OK. But that's because your communication style might have matched Marc's communication style. And therefore, Marc understood you. But so many leaders will speak in the same way to each and every individual on their team and expect results that they had in their head.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But they don't realize that what's in the other person's head might be completely different.

And I love that theory. And I think I'd like to delve a little bit deeper into those. But, you know, something really interesting when I read your notes as I was preparing for this episode, You had a theory about this drama triangle, and I'd love to uncover what that is and how, how does it impact and manifest itself in our workplace dynamics?

Right. In all due respect, it's not my theory. It's a theory that's out there.

Okay.

And I—

it's the first time I'd heard it. So when I read it in your notes, it's like, wow, that's brilliant.

Now I'm blanking on his name. Okay. So the drama triangle is very cool. So somebody look it up. You'll find their name. But what it talks about is that there are 3 corners of the triangle. There's the victim, there's the persecutor, and then there's a rescuer. The victim is always feeling very oppressed. You know, they feel like everybody is out to get them. They don't trust anything. That belief is everything is unfair. The workplace is unfair. Those are the ones that believe in the conspiracy theories, all of that. Then you've got the persecutor, and those are the— the persecutors are the ones that want to Criticize everybody. Everybody's doing everything wrong and they are not responsible for anything that's going wrong. It's like they, they're the ones that sees the wrong and they're gonna tell you. Then you've got the rescuer that comes in to save the day. And the rescuer is the one that they want a better environment. So they're going to fix the victim and they're going to protect the victim. And that's gonna make them look better. That's gonna make them resent anything. You know, they're going to resent the persecutor because they want to rescue and fix everything. The rescuer role is one that leads to a lot of burnout because they try to do everything at once. And then sometimes what happens with the rescuer is they're like, I don't want to be rescued. Why are you rescuing me? You know, so— But the interesting thing about the drama triangle is that it's not static. You could be in within one conversation, You can go from being the victim to the persecutor to being the rescuer. And that's what happens in our— that's why it's called the drama triangle. And that's how it works. And so somebody comes up, it's like, oh my God, this is just so hard. The rescuer comes up, oh, okay, let me help you. Let me fix it. I don't need your help. Why are you always doing this for me? So the victim has now become the persecutor. And then the persecutor can step in and say, well, why are you yelling at her? I mean, can't we just all get along? You know, so they just, you just shift roles over and over again. And then, but of course, listen, in a lot of things, we all gravitate or we all have a penchant for being one or the other. A lot of times we'll constantly show up as the victim. You know, that's part of who it is that you are. Some people will constantly show up as a persecutor, but can flip a switch You know, and so forth. So I find it a really fascinating dynamic that when I talk about it in workshops and in trainings, it's like, oh yeah.

It's interesting because as you say it, I'm sure people can just imagine, oh yeah, that happened yesterday between so-and-so and so-and-so. And that happened, that happened to me, right? And so they can actually place characters into this triangle.

Exactly. And we want to talk about how you can actually get out of that. I love that triangle because it happens and it's natural. And it's like the— and the thing that's so important for all of this with the big C, the thing I care about most is curiosity. We have to start getting more curious. I feel like, I don't know if it was the advent of Google or what, but curiosity has sort of petered out of people's ecosystems or whatever their way of thinking is that they feel like they know everything. They're not going to ask a lot of questions. Or I can just go home and look it up. But what you want to do with curiosity is get really curious about the other person and about yourself. Like, so as soon as you notice yourself playing the victim, you want to first ask yourself, hmm, what else is true? OK, this person just said this to me. Is it true that that means that he thinks I'm a piece of garbage? Or could it be something else? Could it be that he had a bad day? Could it be that he had a horrible phone call from his wife? Is this true, or is this a story that I'm telling myself about this? And this is the other thing that I love about having your show Bibles in the soap opera. Is it a tired old rerun, or is it a new episode? And a lot of times, we will recognize, oh, gosh, I thought that last week. I thought that last year. I thought that last month. What is true? These are completely different people, but I have the same feeling. And so, when you're feeling yourself playing the victim, those are some of the questions you want to ask yourself and some of the ways that you can actually shift or reframe and get yourself out of that victimhood.

Part of the challenge though is that we have to understand that it's happening. A lot of times I say, I don't think that a lot of leaders have any kind of awareness that this is happening aside from the fact that, oh, I can't believe they're fighting or arguing. But how can leaders tell If they themselves are unknowingly contributing to or participating in this workplace drama?

Yeah, that is such an important factor in that self-discovery. Sometimes you really— and that's why trainings and coaching is so important. What happens really when I do one-on-one coaching with execs, it makes like almost an instant shift because I present this and then they become more self-aware. You know, I present this, I present what I see them happening, what I see happening for them. And then it becomes, oh, that's what I'm doing. You know, so sometimes it's just taking that deep breath. First of all, it's like most people were so reactive and thinking about proactivity, like how can you proactively get ahead of something? So you hear something, you don't have to respond right away. All you have to do sometimes is take a deep breath. And think and say, hmm. And there's a, you know, I also do DiSC evaluations and that assessment, the DiSC assessment. And there's an analogy that a company that I use goes like, look, what color is the liquid in your vase? If it's red, you know, if you're filling up with this red liquid, then it's time to like take a breath and take a break. You know, it's like, oh, okay. You wanna get as clear in your vessel as possible before you have a response. And so the awareness, even just us talking about it, even if you listen to this podcast and you sit and you think about the drama triangle, the victim, the persecutor, it's like, oh, all right, am I feeling that? And sometimes it's a visual. What I wanna think about is when you're playing the victim, your body language is gonna be different. Your body language is gonna be more hunched over. You're gonna be more protective of your heart space. You're going to be looking down. It's like, what is that feeling? So sometimes if you're just feeling like the victim, one of the ways— things that you can do is just stand up straight. Really just stand up straight, take that breath, have your heart center focus on the other person, and really look them in the eye. And then it's like, because we are so connected to our bodies, and somatically we can make small shifts that then start to shift how our brain is working and what we're thinking and what our response is going to be. So just that sort of physical shift of feeling like, oh, I feel like somebody just beat me down. Hmm, how can I do this? And how can I speak with a deeper voice or a stronger voice or a more powerful voice? You know, so those are some of the things that really can happen. And similar with the persecutors, like, what am I really after? So when we're persecuting someone else, we're like telling them they're wrong. We're doing things different. It's like, But what you haven't really ever thought of is, what do you really want from this person? Or what do you want to be different? And then you can communicate that from a completely different way. Instead of saying, you're wrong about this, or this is wrong, or this needs to be fixed, how can you reframe it to say, you know, what would really work for me is this? So that's a whole completely different conversation. And so sometimes just really having that agitation is like then going deep down and thinking, oh, you know, I'm really upset because I didn't get the right directive from my superior, or I'm really not clear what the CEO is after. So I'm just going to take it out on this person because I don't know. I don't want to show that I don't know, and I just need them to do it. And that— I see that so, so often. people, these conflicts. And what it really boils down to is that the leader really wasn't clear on what they wanted or needed. And so all they have for them, all they have at their fingertips is to yell or to demand or to blame on somebody else.

Yep.

And so both times, so in those instances, sometimes the victim can then say, oh, that's interesting. It seemed like this was really, really important for you. Can you please let me know what the priority is or what the final ask is or what the goal is?

It's really interesting because as you were saying that, I could formulate so many different circumstances where this applies. And one of the driving forces a lot of times is this idea of I've lost control and I'm trying to reestablish my control. And to me, that— because when we're Self-aware enough that it's like, oh yeah, no, this is where I'm acting like this because I just feel like I've just lost all control, or or you know somebody's doing something. You know, a perfect example came into mind where we were doing something for the dinner theater that we were we just produced, and somebody came to me and says, "Well, why are we doing it this way?" And it's like, "Well, because da da da da." She goes, "I've been doing it for ten years, and I didn't know we were allowed." And it's like that was an interesting like. conversation because it is basically, it is conflict-based. But so we have this persecutor, right? Or this, this victim coming in. And then to your point, she switched it into this kind of persecution thing. And then it was a choice. Do I engage in this conversation or don't I engage? Right?

Exactly.

Yeah, it's very interesting. And, you know, I think one of the things that we fail to do now in our adult years, we used to do it when we were children. Was, you know, you come home crying to your mom, oh, Sarah hurt my feelings. Well, you'd go and tell Sarah that, you know, she hurt your feelings and not to behave like that. You hurt my feelings, Sarah. And she's like, oh, I'm sorry. She gives you a hug, right? And we stop doing this as adults. We stop acknowledging that our feelings get hurt by stuff, right? And anytime we turn around and go, they don't respect me, or they, you know, anything that you play that victim, I bet you, I bet you can tie it to That your feelings were hurt.

Yeah, yeah, totally. And that's so interesting because for years, I think what happened is people were like, feelings don't belong in the workplace. Feelings don't belong in the workplace. Feelings don't belong. So people were afraid to admit that something was bothering them, you know, and then, or, you know, and then we're back to the female thing, you know, it's like, oh, you're just too emotional. You know, don't talk to me about your feelings. You're too— you're being too emotional. And so the thing is, we're all emotional. People talk about this all the time, and men just deal with it a little bit differently. But what it is, is it's OK. I'm giving everyone who's listening OK to talk about feelings in the workplace because that leads to psychological safety, which is all the buzz right now, which all it really means is giving people the attention to be valuable and heard in the workplace. And so, talking about feelings. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's a cool flip to that is whenever you start a conversation with the phrase, I feel, it changes the whole dynamic of the conversation.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Versus, you are.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. In your book, you talk about actor types. And I think this, you inferred it a little bit with the communication channels. I'd love to delve into some of those and how they can affect the workplace dynamics. And we'll get to that right after this.

When the spotlight shines on your business, are customers applauding or yawning? In other words, how is your business performing? Make your business a star with a new book, Lights! Camera! Action!, Business Operational Excellence Through the Lens of Live Theater by Marc Haine. Marc uses his business and acting experience to help you see your business like a live show so you can create a performance your customers will never forget. Don't forget, buy Lights! Camera! Action! today at your favorite online retailer or directly at marchaine.com.

Welcome back. I am speaking with communication expert Robin Hatcher and we're having a great conversation. I'm loving this conversation. Robin, you also have a book. Would you like to tell us a little bit about it?

Yes. My book is called Standing Ovation Presentations: How to Un— I don't even know. How to Understand Your Unique Actor Type and Let It Shine. And I worked this book as an analogy, again, with my acting and my soap opera writing, because what I discovered when I was sitting down to write a book on communication and presentation skills is that we all have so many different styles. And when I was acting, I would go to auditions, and I would act out— I would audition for one part, and I would look around the room. It's like all those people kind of look at me. But then there's another part that looks really super interesting. Why wasn't I sat out for that one? And actors would sit around on auditions for days, hours, moaning about why they didn't get called for that audition or this audition or that audition. And finally, I started looking around. I'm thinking, you know what? You didn't get called because you're not the right type. You would not be believable in that role. And so, I started realizing how distinct different types are. And then, of course, writing for the soap operas, I could not write one line For one character who is completely different from another character. If anybody knows, like, All My Children, if I wrote a line for Erica Kane that actually needed to go to Dixie or whatever, it would be a mismatch. So I just started looking at what are some of those actor types and similar to a lot of the assessments. So there's a DiSC brand and all this. So I came up with 9 different types of actor types. Usually the top 4 are the ones that show up most in the workplace, which are The hero, the buddy, the whiz kid, and the superhero. And so the differences are like those superheroes are the ones that really want to get things done. They care about the action. They care about being direct. They care about working it out. And the hero though is the kind that is just like, oh, look at me. I am so the focus of attention. I am so charismatic that I can run a whole movie, you know? And then you've got the buddy who is always wanting to be the best friend and wanting everybody to get along. And that's what they live by, collaboration and getting along. And the whiz kid is the one that's all about the facts, data, data, data, data, data. Give me the proof. Give me logic. Think of Dr. Spock. Think of The Big Bang Theory. That's our whiz kid. And so when you think about— and then you've got the comic. You've got the superhero. You've got other— actor types that also show up in the workplace and in those major actor types as well. And when you think about how they show up and how they take in information, how they share information, what they need, it's always completely different. You know, so if you go up to a whiz kid and just say, oh, hi, you're such a great worker, I really appreciate getting— so what'd you have for dinner last night? They're going to look at you like you are insane. You know, why are you doing this? Why are you talking to me like that? I don't care. Just tell me what I'm supposed to do, and I will do it, you know? And that's the mistake that we want— that we make, you know, as a leader. It's like— or you've got the leader who is a superhero. I need this right away. I need it by this, this, this. And you're talking to a buddy who, as soon as they hear this, it's like, oh my God, I don't like that tone of voice. They hate me. And as soon as they start feeling that, then that victim comes in. As soon as they start feeling that, they start to slow down because they can't process the fact that their boss doesn't like them. So they are thinking, oh, what can I do to get them to like me? But the work doesn't get done because they don't understand because they're afraid of their boss, you know, or they don't understand the directive. And the hero has this other Things like a, like I have a little bit of, a little bit of a lot of hero in me, but you know, so heroes loved it, love the big picture. They love everything looking good and, and feeling good. And it's all about the stories and the big picture. So you put them with the whiz kid that wants this minute detail or this and this and this, and the hero's like, I have no idea how to get that information. I don't care about that information. I don't want that information. Why are you, you know, and it goes both ways. You know, that, that's one of the most often things is like when I work with a lot of engineers or IT professionals and they want to give you everything. And there, if you've got a hero boss, it's like, I don't care about that. Why are you talking to me about how the widget was made? What the alloy was used to make that widget? I don't care. Just let me know if that widget works.

Yeah. And tell me what you need. Just tell me what you need.

Yeah. Yeah.

For the people who are tuning in and listening to this, where this might be resonating, how can people get in contact with you, Robyn, if they want to pick your brain and work with you on figuring their workplace out?

Yes, please. You can DM me on LinkedIn. That's one of my favorite spots. Or you can just go to my website, RobynHatcher.com. That's Robyn with a Y. And book a discovery call. There's a form on there. Or my email's on there too. You can email me at robin@speaketc.com.

And it's all in the show notes anyway. So, you know, it's really interesting what you're saying because it changes the whole idea of leadership communication to being intentional leadership communication. And the challenge though is how many of us have been trained in this? How do we— how does a leader look at the information you're giving them and saying, okay, now I know I have a problem, how do I fix it?

Yeah, well, there are definite strategies and frameworks. So, once you know that you have a problem, what I do with the actor types is I will give you a list of, or list, or have a conversation about what your style is and what the style is everyone else. And then, what you can do is look, and you don't even have to have a formal assessment, you can look at your team and sort of immediately guess what their primary actor type is. And let me just clarify, because this comes up all the time, we are all more than one actor type. I'm going to say it again because people always push back on that. We are all more than one actor type. And we have a primary actor type, and we have others. Good leaders, Marc, have learned how to be a Meryl Streep. And what I mean by that is Meryl Streep can take any script, Any role, any type, and act the heck out of it. And so, to be a good leader, you need to see what all these other types are like, and then think about how you can embody those other types to communicate with your team through. And that doesn't mean that you're being fake. It means that you're being a Meryl Streep who can be flexible enough to get your message into the right wording, the right system, the right framework so that it's understood. And I love to give the analogy, it's like if you had a team that only spoke English and you started speaking to them in German, you probably wouldn't get a lot done. You know, you maybe have one German worker and it's like, oh, that worker was so great because he understands your language. And so, that's what we do so many times. We go in and we go to this— we look at this team and we say, We're going to speak to them in my language. And then, they don't do it and you blame them.

Yes.

You can't blame them for having brought up speaking English.

And it's interesting because what I see in a lot of organizations is when there's that misunderstanding, the conflict might not necessarily be front of house. But you don't know what conversations are happening behind closed doors between middle managers, frontline managers, top-end managers about people and the way that they react. And so, I've heard where I was in one meeting where somebody turned around and said, Donna is such a slacker. And I had to stop them because here's a middle manager talking to a frontline supervisor. And I went to the frontline manager and I said, how do you expect your supervisor to treat this woman now from this point forward? You've already tagged her as being stupid and an idiot.

Yeah.

So, how do you want them to treat this person now? And so this intentionality, I think, is really, really important.

Yeah, it's so important. And that's such a great point is like how you talk about anybody is also a reflection on you. You know, so that's, that's one of the things that you want to really be intentional about, like seeing and valuing all of their strengths, learning how to connect with them from a different strength. Learning how to communicate and value what there is. And the other piece that goes hand in hand with that is acknowledging. So many people in the workplace don't get acknowledged for the work that they're doing. And when you are not being acknowledged, when you don't feel valued, what's your point? What's the point of actually doing the work and showing up if no one's going to appreciate it? So that's one of the things that is so, so important. To the workplace as well, to eliminate and reduce drama, is to see that, yes, you need this. I may not even be able to get it to you. I may not be able— and this was what happened on a coaching call yesterday with a client who was in that burnout team. It's like, yeah, there's no motivation for these people that are working so hard. And one of the things is, I, as a leader, I'm going to tell you how much I value you. So that one of the motivations is being part of a team where you feel valuable. And so sometimes it's the most you can do.

I feel that even with the actor types, each of those actor types would respond to feedback and recognition and reward systems completely different as well. So we have to understand what kind of rewards would work with them.

Exactly. And that's one of the things I teach in my workshops and my coaching, what it is that would work for a particular type, how you can— I call it feeding their bank account. So how can you give them this acknowledgment along the way so that when a conflict comes up, when drama might erupt, you have a full bank account where they're not going to hold it against you, which is so, so important? Because drama is going to happen. It's going to happen where you're doing something that they don't want. And then if— but if you've been acknowledging them along the way, and feeding their bank accounts, they're gonna give you a pass, or they're gonna have a conversation with you and say, you know, this is it. But they're not gonna blow up. They're not gonna be passive-aggressive. And that's so important to know exactly what it is that they need and when they need it.

Yeah. You mentioned earlier about this idea of curiosity, which I think is a magical philosophy. Is there any other steps that leaders could use to prevent misunderstandings? And once they understand actor scripts and the actor types, and how to communicate and so on, have a level of curiosity. Is there something else that they need to do to help prevent the misunderstandings and the mis— kind of guided perceptions?

One of the things I feel like leaders don't do enough is to share their why and their purpose. A lot of times, people are— they tell people what to do, but they don't tell them why they're doing it. And people are very, very motivated by feeling that there is a sense of purpose. And so, when you can say, yes, we need this, and by you doing that, it's going to create X, Y, and Z, people are going to be much more likely to do it and not act out or not resent you. So, that's really, I think, a really important— like, having a strong purpose. A lot of times, a lot of the leaders I work with, and I ask them that question, it's like, what are your values? What's your purpose? What is your mission? It's like, they're not quite sure. So, if you're not sure, Then the people you're working with or who are working for you, they're not sure. So they're just like sort of—

I'm just doing the best that I can!

Yeah, they're just doing stuff. And so seeing people for who they are, getting curious about their backstories or their show Bibles or whatever you want to call them, and learning how to communicate in the way that they can receive it, and seeing their value and acknowledging their value, And then I think the most important part is getting curious about yourself, you know, because the thing is you can go and sort of psychoanalyze all these people's like, oh, that's that type and that's that type and that's their problem and reframe that. But have you turned the lens in and looked at yourself? You know, what is it that you need? And so, you know, and then when I think about the rescuer, you know, that role, the rescuer, sometimes people are rescuers because of ego.

Yeah.

You know, you have to ask yourself, it's like, am I trying to save you because it makes me look good? That's a whole different reason for stepping up for somebody.

And being curious allows you to turn around and say, I wonder why I reacted that way.

Exactly.

And start sitting down and having a conversation with oneself.

Exactly. And that, I mean, I cannot tell you, like, I'm thinking of 2 executives that I've been coaching that literally, and I've heard it from their senior leader, did a 180 just because they started seeing what they were doing, where it was coming from, how it was creating the reactions that they were having themselves. And then once they saw that, it's like then they could navigate the conversations a lot easier because they could say, oh, that's what I'm doing. Oh, that's the button that person is pushing on me right now. You know, because we're all triggered by things. You know, that's the other thing. We're triggered by things. And like, if you think, oh, I'm being triggered because, hmm, yeah.

As people uncover this for themselves and digest what you're saying, are there any pitfalls and cautionaries that they should be aware of? Things that they, as they wanna make a change, they should maybe That's an excellent question.

I feel like one of the things is what I just said, don't overanalyze and then throw some psychoanalytic stuff into it and take— it takes time. So take that breath, really think about what your outcome is, what is the goal for what it is that you want to achieve and create a timeline. So one of the pitfalls is to try to do everything really quickly. I was just listening to a podcast today who was talking about— this guy was talking about how hunting, you take— you have to walk really slowly in order to see things differently. And a lot of times, we want to get— fix the problem right away and go in and think that it's done. But it's a process. Every time you're dealing with a new situation or a new way of communicating, it's a process. You have to test it out, then come back, and you could— go backwards before you go forward. But sticking with it and knowing that the value is to collaborate and to lessen the drama— we're never going to get rid of it. Otherwise, why would we have plays and all this other stuff? We're not going to get rid of it completely. We love drama.

We're human beings. We love drama.

But we can rewrite it. You can rewrite it so that it is not so crippling and not so time-sucking.

Yeah.

There's one thing about productive drama. Like, so when you have like constructive conflict where, you know, you're brainstorming ideas and you're pushing back on assumptions and, and it's like a collaborative kind of exercise, conflict is great there. And being able to pick different people's point of view and perceptions about stuff is great, is a great productive use of drama. But the stuff happening around the Keurig machine, not so much.

Yeah, yeah, because that becomes vindictive and biting. And, you know, that's the kind of drama that we don't want.

Yeah, this has been such a great conversation, Robin. Do you have any last thoughts about what we've been talking about today? It seems like we've covered the gamut, and I feel like I could probably do another 2 hours with you.

I know. I think— gosh, did we cover everything? Is that possible?

Uh, 30,000-foot view.

Yeah, I know. Yeah, there's a lot. I mean, people are so wackadoodle. You know, we're so interesting and we're so complicated and we want it to be simple and it's not. And I really believe that with patience and love, that's the one thing we— like, I have a— when I say love, I mean it's a communication framework. Like, you need to listen, you need to understand, you need to validate that other person. And you need to then, and only then, do you express and empower and explode them. So that's my love formula for communication. Listen, say something that shows that you understand where they're coming from, validate a part of what it is that they're saying. It doesn't have to— you don't have to agree with it. You can just validate it. And then you express your opinion or you explore their opinion more deeply.

This has been brilliant. Brilliant, Robyn. Could you remind everybody one more time how they can get a hold of you?

RobynHatcher.com. That's Robyn with a Y, or Robyn@SpeakEtc.com. Shoot me an email, find me on LinkedIn. I'll be happy to explore further opportunities.

I want to thank you so much for being here with us today. I appreciate your passion and your expertise and your brilliance. This has been absolutely a Great conversation. I've loved every minute of it and I can't believe 52 minutes have just flown by like that.

I know. Thank you so much for having me, Marc. I really appreciate it. It was fun chatting with you.

It has been so great. Thanks again for coming. Why don't you let me know if this was of value to you? As always, my offer stands. If you would like 30 minutes of my time to brainstorm your business with you and your team, feel free to book time on my online calendar. The link is is down below in the show notes. And as you can tell, Robin and I are dedicated to business owners just like you. So, if you could use our help, if you're planning a leadership retreat or a conference and you need some help, you need people to come in as subject matter experts to help support you, please give us a call. Our link is in the show notes. It would be our absolute honor to be of service to you. And while you're at it, why don't you go ahead, leave a comment or review about this episode? I'd love to get your feedback. Was this Did you pick up any tidbits that you could use? I'd love to hear from you. And of course, if you haven't done so yet, please make sure that you subscribe to this podcast. Make sure that the minute you subscribe to it, you'll get notifications each and every week when I bring you brilliant experts like I did with Robin today. And you'll get that notification if you subscribe. Thank you so much for joining me today. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe.

Thank you, Marc.

Stay healthy, and I hope you dare to be the exception.

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