Ending the Era of Incidental Leaders with Jennifer Jensen

Would it surprise you to learn that 70% of people leave their jobs because of bad management? Not bad pay, not bad perks, not bad coffee, but just bad leadership. And if your company's leadership strategy boils down to, hey, congratulations! You're so good at your job. You're the boss now. Well, We've got a problem. A big, expensive problem. And that's what we're talking about today on Experience Leadership.

Welcome to Experience Leadership, a podcast that challenges small business owners and entrepreneurs just like you to dare to be the exception. Join our host, Customer Experience Expert Marc Haine, as he uncovers relevant and timely content to help you script and direct your business and teams to create jaw-dropping experiences your customers and staff deserve. Here is the host of Experience Leadership, author of Lights! Camera! Action!, customer experience expert Marc Haine.

Welcome to Experience Leadership, the small business podcast. I am your host, customer and employee experience strategist Marc Haine. Today, My guest is pragmatic leadership expert and author of Developing Authentic Leaders, Jennifer Jensen. Today, we're going to be diving into the leadership pipeline crisis and how to fix it with authenticity, influence, and a whole lot of common sense. Let me ask you something. How many truly great leaders have you ever had in your entire career? If you're like most people, the answer is 1, maybe 2. And that's not just sad. It's a leadership crisis that's draining our businesses from the inside out. Most managers aren't bad people, but they are underprepared. They're thrust into roles that they weren't trained for. They're stuck between fire drills and performance reviews. And have never been taught how to lead with purpose or presence. And that brings me to our Question of the Day. So, are you building a team of leaders or just a bunch of stressed-out task managers who really don't understand their job definition? I'd love to know what your experience is like. Why don't you go ahead, share a link to this episode on your favorite social media platform. #ExperienceLeadership and become part of the conversation. As I mentioned, my guest today is Jennifer Jensen, an expert who doesn't just talk leadership. She lives it. With 29 years of experience in the corporate trenches, Jen knows what it means to lead without a title and without basically the influence of authority. She's the author of Developing Authentic Leaders and the creator of the Authentic Leadership Roadmap, a practical real-world approach to turning overwhelmed managers into confident, respected leaders. Jen specializes in one of the most neglected leadership layers in business. And that is the one that's in the middle, the middle management. Jennifer, welcome to the show. It's so great to have you.

Thank you, Marc. It's a pleasure to be on your show and I'm excited to chat with everyone.

Me too. Hey, so maybe you could start off by telling me a little bit about who your clients are and what do you do for them? How do you serve them?

So, my clients typically are the middle managers who are struggling to grow in their careers. And so, I offer one-on-one coaching advisory services, as well as team advisory to help gain better collaboration amongst their team members and to support them as they're growing as a leader.

Is it the middle managers who are hiring you, or is it the top-end leader saying, my middle managers need help, I should hire Jennifer?

It's a combination of both.

Okay.

Because some middle managers recognize that they need the support.

Okay.

And then there's leaders that are recognizing that they need to support their managers as well.

So it's interesting. So how does a middle manager know that they need help? A lot of times what happens is people get kind of— they get absorbed into it. They get assimilated into the middle management position, just trying to do the best they can. And they don't really understand that there is a different way of doing things. So how do they recognize that they themselves have this weakness?

In some cases, they recognize it due to having exceptional managers, like having a great manager they've worked with before. And so, they realize that they wanna be similar to that. So, they wanna bring in somebody to support them. And then, there's some that are self-aware enough to realize that they aren't necessarily meeting the needs of their team. And so, then they wanna bring me in to support them.

Lovely. And like in my years in hospitality, I see that most people in leadership roles are what I call incidental leaders. There are people who have been promoted because they were great performers. They weren't given the skill to be really good leaders so that they kind of flounder. There's also people who assume leadership roles, people who like decide that they wanna go off on their own, create their own business, and they have no background in leadership training or finance or marketing or HR, and they're just trying to do the best they can. So when we think about this idea that we're promoting people into middle management roles, Why are middle managers so overlooked when it comes to things like leadership development?

They're overlooked because they're just assumed to have the skillset. They were great at what they did, and now we've moved them up to management thinking they'll be great as a manager or a leader too, but that isn't necessarily the case. And so, it's a huge mind shift on yourself and your behavioral skillset that are required from task management to becoming that authentic leadership and influence within your team. And so, a lot of organizations overlook that.

Yeah. So, when we think about these people stepping into these middle management roles, what are some red flags that a manager is maybe struggling but doesn't really know how to ask for help? Like, they don't know what's wrong. They just know, oh my God, I used to be so good. Now, I just suck.

The big signs are the team turnover. Is the turnover high on your team? And evaluating what are the reasons. behind that, because a lot of that could be due to micromanaging because they were used to doing all these tasks on their own and now they're having to delegate and they're not quite sure how to delegate effectively to encourage the team. So that's one of the big things and just seeing how the performance.

Yeah, it's interesting that you say that because, you know, a lot of times people will get promoted and it's like, okay, John, you're really good at what you're doing. Why don't we promote you to a supervisor? And then you could teach everybody how to be as good as you. And then we wonder, it's like, I don't understand why John is always micromanaging everything.

Yeah, 'cause that's what he's used to doing.

Or that's what he's told to do, essentially.

Yeah, and that's what he's done all along. And so, changing that mindset of, I'm now giving this back to the, to somebody else to do and having to trust them that they will do it, not in the way that I would do it, but they will do it in the time that's allocated to them, is a total mind shift.

Yeah. Yeah, and it becomes a thing because again, I'm being promoted. I'm the technician. I know what I've been doing. So that you also get a lot of things. It's just faster if I do it myself.

Yes.

And is it really? Because now you're doing that on top of what you're supposed to be doing as a manager and a leader.

And again, it's in the short term it might, but in the long term, it's just more stress and more work. You talk about the middle management trap. Is that what we're talking about right now?

Part of that, yes, is learning to delegate to your team.

Yeah.

But it's also showing that you are strategic in your abilities to do, to think visually, or to have a vision and strategy so that laid out for the executives to see. And a lot of individuals don't think strategically, and that's part of the problem of being overlooked. And so, you need to be aware of what your How you're performing in the boardroom with the executive so that you aren't overlooked. And you're also setting yourself up with strategic projects to show your capabilities as well.

So, what needs to happen? Because the people getting promoted into leadership roles might not even have a clue of how to become strategic. They're executors, right? They've been, they've been in roles where they have to, they were the doers. What needs to happen to train them to think more strategically?

So, you're going to have to start thinking in a grander scale and not so detail-oriented, but more on the broad range, big picture. And you're going to have to start making decisions that are for long-term versus just short-term. And so, you're going to have to look at all of the big picture as a whole and then try and break it down for your team to help them understand it and to move forward with progressing that vision and values that you have set before them.

So, what, what do you think is keeping these managers stuck in kind of the same old way of doing things? We're always constantly having this, you keep doing the exact same thing expecting different results.

It's because that's what we're used to, and we're not recognizing and becoming self-aware into changing that behavior. And so, a key thing for managers and authentic leaders is to become self-aware so that you can Adapt and change accordingly, and also understand your team and what's driving them and what their strengths and weaknesses are. And also understand why you react the way you do so that you can change your behaviors as well.

I get a sense that most managers tend to do a lot of finger-pointing. I use the word managers as opposed to leaders because I think leaders kind of work themselves out of that. But managers will constantly blame things. It's like, it's not my fault, it's because this is happening and this is happening and this is happening. I've said many times on the show, When we're pointing fingers at other people, we're pointing 3 to ourselves. So, what needs to happen for these managers to become more self-aware in the scheme of things? What needs to happen to kind of jumpstart their knowledge gap and their naivety so that they can start now developing as leaders?

I think a big key thing is, I know there's a lot of great assessments out there to help understand why you are the way that you are. And I provide one that is through Lumina Learning. And so, they do a great job going right down to how you react when you're stressed, and so, how to change those behaviors so that you can change how you are perceived and viewed as well. And I think it's also start taking ownership and accountability for your actions. And for me, as a project manager, when I was doing that, the buck always stopped with me. So, if something failed, it was my fault. And I always took it upon myself to say, if the team is successful, then it— the team gets credit. If the team fails, then I need to take responsibility and accountability for that because I am the one leading them. And some of the best teams I've had were the ones where we were successful, and we all make mistakes. And allowing people to make mistakes and taking ownership for it. Just humanizes you and makes you an even more effective and influential leader.

I can imagine that when we don't take ownership for ourselves, this is kind of the root cause of, like, toxic workplaces.

Definitely. Because I even have a client where they're dealing with a director who is micromanaging, but doesn't believe that she's micromanaging. And it's an extremely toxic environment. And so, I'm supporting that team and helping them to go into survival mode so that they can survive this and finish what they need to accomplish on that project.

You know, when you have that kind of a leader, there's consequences. What kind of damage does it do to the company's growth, to the team's growth, or even to innovation as a whole?

It totally destroys innovation. Nobody wants to get out of their box because they are too fearful to do so. And it also creates psychological issues. Because I've even gone through that with a manager, and I had PTSD afterwards for at least 6 months where I would shrink in the boardroom because I didn't know how people would respond. And so, when you're constantly micromanaged, it decreases morale significantly. You're going to have huge turnover rates, and people don't want to stay in an organization like that. So, your reputation as an organization goes down as well, and people don't want to work there anymore, and you're not going to get the superstars on your teams. You're gonna get the mediocre.

Right. It is really ironic that when we go through kind of the vetting process, we go through kind of wanting to vet the best people for the roles. And then we go through this, all the due diligence, we do the reference checks, I hope. We do all the work that we're supposed to be doing to get the absolute best people to come into our businesses. And then we micromanage the shit out of them, expecting them to be superstars. And then we can't understand why 6 months later, The whole flame has gone out of their eyes. Absolutely no passion, no engagement. And you're just wondering, what happened to them? I thought they would be so good.

And they were good, but you destroyed them.

Right? So what, so what I'd like to do, Jennifer, is I'd like to dig into some actionable strategies that the people tuning in can take, and we'll get to that right after this. When the spotlight shines on your business, are customers applauding or yawning? In other words, how is your business Make your business a star with a new book, Lights! Camera! Action!, business operational excellence through the lens of live theater by Marc Haine. Marc uses his business and acting experience to help you see your business like a live show so you can create a performance your customers will never forget.

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today at your favorite online retailer or directly at marchaine.com. Welcome back. I am speaking with Jennifer Jensen. Jennifer, why don't you tell us a little bit about your book?

So, Developing Authentic Leaders came from mentoring and working with other leaders as they were coming up, and there was nothing to mentor them with. And so, I started to write this book to help in doing so. And so, what I love about it is this book is all in point form or bullet points. It's not long paragraphs. There's 52 topics, one for every week of the year, that you can do yourself to become the authentic leader, or you can do as an accountability partner or as a team. And so, it's got a ton of great information to help anybody going into leadership. And we are all leaders at some— in some way in our own lives.

Lovely. And so, what kind of topics do you cover?

There's topics on communication, there's topics on Integrity, humility, vulnerability. And each topic is only about 2 to 3 pages long.

Nice. So, really easy to consume.

Very easy. And if you're not a reader, it's okay. You only have to read 2 to 3 pages.

Nice. So, I mean, we're talking— we talked about the kind of the problem state that we're seeing in businesses right now and some of the consequences. How do we turn incidental leaders into really great managers?

I think there's a lot that we can do. So, we can become a lot more self-aware and encourage our managers to be self-aware and align our values with actions and ensure our daily decisions consistently reflect our stated core values and communicate our purposes publicly. We can also define our leadership purpose and articulate your— our why clearly and share our purpose publicly as well, and then start to build trust. And be consistently reliable, practice transparency. And then we cultivate relational authenticity and practice appropriate vulnerability and show genuine interest in others. And then we're going to continuously adapt and grow throughout this whole process. And you're not going to be able to do all of this on every aspect of your life. You're going to pick 1 or 2 areas to start to work on to really help be successful. And then you're going to start inspiring others. And then measure and reflect on what you've done and then track it and start doing your own regular self-assessment on yourself.

It seems like an awful lot of work that one needs to do in order to shake this. As outside of your book, what other resources should they be looking into to think, I need help with this? I, like, I can be self-reflective, but I don't know if I'm being authentic enough or if I'm digging deep enough. So what resources are out there to help them?

You can also go and ask for feedback from others, like on your team, or the ones that you're leading, the executives, to help understand where your strengths are, and what's working, what isn't, and what they're seeing. And so, then start to take that information and apply it into how you continue to move forward as a manager.

I can imagine if you have a toxic workplace, if you're— because of the way you behaved, That you have people shutting down and stuff. And I can imagine that when you go up to them and you say, okay, team, I need your feedback. What's wrong with me? That you pretty much will have everybody just shutting the hell up.

Yes.

Especially if you're the micromanager. If you are totally— because you're not willing to take in the feedback. So why would they respond to you if you aren't even willing to take the feedback? So you have to be open to it.

And so, for organizations or leaders who've kind of lost that trust, what do they need to do to kind of reseed and rebuild that trust aspect so that when they do go out to their people, they know— the people know, hey, this— he's changing. He's developing. He's working hard to make this happen. What do they need to do to create this?

The biggest thing is to go and admit to your team that you are struggling with this area. And that you're going to need their support to grow, and you're going to make mistakes, and to allow you to make mistakes, and that you're willing to allow them to give you feedback and not be reactive in a negative way, and take that feedback and apply it. It has to be very intentional.

You just nailed it on the head. That was going to be my next question, because I think the intentionality behind it When you accept the feedback and you start acting on it, your people will start to see that you're applying kind of what the learning, right? So, if you have this ability, if you have this habit of micromanaging all the time and they say, well, you're a little bit of a micromanager. It's like you accept it with grace. Accept it as a gift that they've told you this and then work on it.

Yeah.

So then, every single time you have an interaction, you go, wait a second. Am I micromanaging right now? And they can point it out. And if trust gets up high, they can turn around and go, yeah, boss, you kind of sort of are.

And that's where I'd rather have my employees come to me and say, yeah, you're kind of micromanaging, Jen. You got to let this go.

Yeah. In the documentation that you sent me, you have this idea of having these 3 leadership shifts that every leader should make. What are those shifts that every leader should be making if they find that they're kind of on this other path?

They should go from doing to enabling. So, coach instead of solving it.

Hmm.

And you start to ask, what do you think? And guide the team members to find solutions rather than being the answer person. And also use the 70-20-10 rule. Let your team handle 70% independently, guide 20%, and then directly solve only 10% of the problems. That's one shift. And then, another one is from managing tasks to leading people. And we've talked a little bit about this with the micromanagement. And so connect work to individual purpose and learn each person's goals and consistently link their daily tasks to their bigger aspirations. And then focus on outcomes and growth and measure those results rather than activities, and spend 20% or 25% of the one-on-ones on development conversations. And another shift is to go from reactive To visionary. So, start thinking strategically and block maybe 20% of your calendar for future planning and big-picture thinking. And then communicate vision consistently. So, regularly explain how current work connects to organizational goals.

I love that. The 20% rule of blocking 20%, does that include blocking it with your team? How does that manifest itself?

Yeah, you can do it yourself, but then I would bring in the team. And that can be part of the 20% is bringing in the team to help with that future planning and big picture thinking. But you yourself need to have some sort of idea. You don't have to flush it out because that's where you want the team to help flush it out.

For the people who are challenged, like they've never done this before, they might need some help. How can people get ahold of you if this is resonating?

They can reach me on my website. at authenticleader.ca, or they can reach out at info@authenticleader.ca as well. And I'm always happy to help and guide people. Lovely.

When somebody gets promoted to a— you know, we talked about this thing about promoting the best performer into a leadership role. But can you walk us through what the ideal journey of a new manager receiving proper training would look like?

So, it depends. Each manager is going to be different on what their skill set level is. But I think the key thing is Doing a self-awareness assessment to understand truly where you're at. And then I like to come in and start to help them with learning. And once I understand their weaknesses and their strengths, then I can go in and say, let's start building on this. And if it's, for instance, communication and working on their communication and their body language and how they present themselves, which you would think isn't a big deal, but it actually is because it sets you up for where you're gonna go in your career next. So, like standing tall, making appropriate eye contact, and using purposeful gestures, and also maintaining a calm energy, especially under pressure, is huge, especially in the boardroom. And you've also gotta make sure you're dressing strategically. And it's also your mental presence and being present and working through those, as well as your emotional presence. And like I said before, staying composed under pressure and connecting and inspiring confidence in those around you.

So, this is not something that we would do, we would manifest organically, right? So, the message I'm getting is that if you promote somebody, then the onus is on you to make sure these skills get developed.

Yes.

And so, especially the soft skills. So, would it be fair to say that when you're getting ready to promote somebody that you sit down and you have a strategy for how you're going to help this person become the leader that they want to be?

Absolutely. Because that's what's going to determine if they are the right individual for your team.

And so, what would that look like then for somebody who's never basically educated their middle managers? They've just promoted and say, oh, you know what the job is. You just go to her. How do they know what they need to be covering? Like, if I'm promoting, if I'm promoting a middle manager never having kind of done the coaching before, how do I, as the top leader, kind of develop that capacity and that competency?

I think that leader themselves has to also have that capacity and competency as well to help truly understand what they need. And so, it's a whole organizational transformation that needs to happen if you're going to have authentic leaders within your team. And so, you're going to have to start to understand who you are as an individual, and then you're going to also understand what your manager's— what's their whole desire and their goals and their strategy? And then also find out what they're like on their teams, and are they the right person that's going to have the soft skills that they need for this role, or are you going to have to support them in developing those soft skills? Because great leaders aren't born.

Right.

We are all able to train. And so, you're going to have to be constantly adjusting and adapting and becoming much more self-aware as you're going on in this journey.

Would it be fair to say then, then if you're going to promote somebody that you assign them a coach internally, like somebody who's going to help them with the transition? Because I do know that there's an onboarding process and the onboarding process is typically really short. Especially if it's an internal hire, it's like, okay, Steve, you've been working here for 5 years. You already know what our systems are. Just do it. But they should, we really should be maybe assigning a coach, developmental coach, maybe to them as well and work with them side by side to figure out what, what we need to help them build.

Absolutely. And to have a one-on-one coach to help them out, or even doing any leadership training, have a budget of like $15,000 to $50,000 a year for them. Because you want to invest in them. You want them to be successful. And so, start having that so that you're going to have one of the most productive and successful companies if your team is truly trained and coached along the way.

I love that. I'd like to get into some— you know, I'm always fearful of band-aid solutions where we're solving something very short in the interim, but we're not really thinking about the long-term implications. So, I'd like to talk about some cautionaries and pitfalls. And we'll get to that right after this.

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Welcome back! I hope you're getting tons from this episode today. A lot of value. As you can tell, Jennifer and I are on a mission to support businesses just like yours. So, if you belong to an organization that could use our help, or you or someone you know might be planning a leadership retreat or a conference, drop us a line. We're here to help you. We'd love to explore how we could be of service to you and your people. Jennifer, you talk about The executive presence formula, what's involved in that?

So, that's your physical presence. So, mastering confident body language. It's about your mental presence and your emotional presence. And so, I've seen some amazing leaders who are the calm in the storm. And so, when all hell is breaking loose, they are calm and cool and collected, and they are the ones that are Taking the time to understand what's going on and making decisions and sticking to them. The one, the leaders that I've seen or managers that aren't effective are those that are freaking out and not willing to make a decision, especially during high-pressure situations.

Yeah. Yeah. And we see that quite a bit. I was just, I was just saying, I think on the last episode, I was saying that my wife and I were walking through Costco and we had, they have the sample stations all over. And there was obviously one gentleman who was like the manager. And he was in a tiff, I think, with one of the people doing the thing. And he stopped and he said, you have to listen to me. I'm your manager. Which of course is what we say to people when we've lost all that we've thought— we think we've lost all authority and we're trying to reestablish ourselves. And we just know that if you ever have to say that, you're probably on the wrong track.

Exactly. You should have handed him your card then.

I just, I started to laugh and my wife goes, oh, I know. But, you know, she would have killed me if I would. But the problem happens is I see stuff like that, right? And part of me wants to go up to them and go, excuse me, I just heard what you said. Um, just so you know, you're saying that because you feel you've lost all authority and you really suck as a leader. Would you like some help? And I have a sneaking suspicion it would just shut them right down.

Yeah, probably. But it might be words they actually need to hear.

Oh, maybe. But I, you know, I, I think people, to your point earlier, people have to understand where they are in their journey. And they have to be able to question their capacity and their own competency. And at some point, have the humility to say, hey, maybe I'm not as good as I'd like to be.

Exactly.

So, what does it mean for leaders then to lead with authenticity? Because a lot of times, I'll see leaders say, oh no, I'm so authentic. But you just see that it's all faked. And we'll see this behind closed doors. Like I've walked into organizations where somebody is like behind closed doors, They're in a board meeting or something and they said, oh, you know, the boss is telling the middle manager, oh, this Debbie chick, I don't know what's wrong with her. You know, she's no bloody good.

No, no, no.

And the middle manager— and they're saying this to the middle manager. And then my only thought process is, how do you want this middle manager now to go and face this employee? Because when managers, when people at the boardroom are talking so negatively, How do you expect this person to lead this person with fairness, with authenticity, with respect when the closed-door conversations are so negative?

Exactly. So it's leading by example. In that situation, you need to lead by example. And if you— how you're representing yourself in a meeting or with that individual, they're gonna take that and follow that same process potentially. And you don't want that. And so, when you're truly authentic, you're going to be the same in a lot of situations. And so, your values and priorities are gonna match what you say and what you do. And I, there's a great, great quote by Emerson that says, I can't hear you over your actions.

Hmm.

And so, we need to be able to, our words have to match what we're doing. And a lot of leaders are missing that. They say, oh, yeah, I'm doing that. You're not. Because I see you under pressure. I see you in your everyday and what you're presenting to the world. And I see you when you're the most relaxed, and you're not the same person. You're completely different.

Another story that comes to mind is when I had to approach a supervisor who was giving heck to a staff member for not treating a customer Properly. And I had to pull that supervisor aside and say, how do you want this employee to treat customers if you treat the employee with such disrespect?

Totally.

Right.

And we all want to feel respected.

Yeah. Yeah.

And heard. And so that's a big thing is not doing that.

So, you know, I do know that, you know, a lot of times people, people will say, treat people how you want to be treated. But I challenge people and say, treat people the way they want to be treated. Like, understand how they want to be treated. Some people are really good with kind of a heavy hand. They want you to be at the forefront. They want you to be direct in your communication. Other people want their feelings to be guarded and that sort of thing. And we have to understand the different personalities. So, what are some common mistakes that you see business managers making when they're trying to adjust or try to understand what the needs of their people are?

They have preconceived notions. And ideas about that individual instead of taking that individual at face value and looking at them and truly trying to understand who they are and what drives them and what they want going forward. And also, I see a lot of leaders who, they like to play politics. And yeah, we all have to play politics, but at the same time, we need to humanize and realize that our people are the ones who are gonna make us successful. And we wanna invest in them and make sure they're satisfied, because if they're happy and they're successful, then we as leaders are successful as well.

Right. So, as people are tuning in and they know that they have to make a change, what are some cautionaries, some pitfalls they should be aware of as they try to make a change?

Don't fake it till you make it. I hate that saying, 'cause it's a trap. It isn't about acting like a leader. It's about developing genuine self-awareness and emotional intelligence in dealing with your team. So, don't try and fake it till you make it. Another one is don't skip the self-assessment phase. You really need to be aware of who you are, and don't go to various techniques without understanding your current leadership style and your blind spots and leading to ineffective implementation. Another one to be aware of is overcorrecting. Leaders often swing from micromanaging to hands-off approaches, and the key is to find the balance in supporting and autonomy for each team member.

And so, these cautionaries, again, they're easy to say. How do they test whether or not they've done it?

Ask for feedback and be open to that feedback. Because that's the key. You have to be willing to adapt and change. And the only way you're going to do that is if you're listening to what your team has to say.

Gotcha. Yeah. So, that's the magic button, right? It's cause and effect. You'll see it through cause and effect. Jennifer, this has been so fantastic. Could you remind everybody one more time how they can get a hold of you?

You can get a hold of me on my website at authenticleader.ca or at info@authenticleader.ca as well.

Lovely. As we wrap up, do you have any last thoughts about what we've been talking about today?

Definitely. I would say choose one conversation this week that you'll practice being authentic leadership. Instead of just giving directions, ask powerful questions and listen for understanding. Notice— and I want you to also take notice— the shifts that happen within these individuals and the dynamics on your team and how they respond.

And you'll see it.

And I think another big Yeah, you will definitely see it. And if you practice it every week, you're gonna see a totally different team in very short order because there, you've now garnered a lot of trust. And I'd also say, start with self-awareness with who you are and start to reflect on your leadership style and what are your strengths, what are your triggers, and how you experience your leadership through the eyes of others, and just simply exercise Love that.

Jennifer, thank you so much. I really appreciate you being here today to share your knowledge and your expertise. It's been brilliant. Thank you so much for doing this.

Thank you for having me. It was an honor and a privilege.

Hey, if you have any questions about today's episode or you'd like to have a complimentary 30-minute brainstorming session with you and your team, feel free to book yourself on my online calendar. The link is below. It's the one that's marked Meet With Pretty convenient, right? As always, I am at your service. And if you haven't done so yet, why don't you go ahead, make sure you subscribe to this feed. And of course, follow me on social media. I post things regularly including little snippets of all my past conversations with experts like Jennifer. And please feel free to— if you subscribe, you'll get notification when I bring you fresh new content each and every week. Thank you so much for Thank you for investing your time with me today. I love having you along for the ride. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and I hope you dare to be the exception.

Thank you for joining us this week on Experience Leadership. Make sure you visit marchaine.com for a full directory of available episodes. While you're at it, if you found today's content valuable, please share it and tell your friends about the show. As Marc says, knowledge is power, but only if you share it. Be sure to tune in each week for the newest episode. Please stay safe, stay healthy, and dare to be the exception.