From Grind to Growth: How to Build a Business That Works for You

Ever feel like the harder you work, the further behind you fall? It's like you've built a great product or service only to feel like every single day you are a prisoner to it. If you're stuck in the weeds, putting out fires and praying that this month won't break you, you might not need more hustle. What you might need is a system or two. And that's what we're talking about today. On Marc Haine Live. Welcome to this episode of Marc Haine Live. This is where small business owners and entrepreneurs pick up core skill sets to create the show-stopping, jaw-dropping experience that your customers and your employees deserve. I am your host, Customer and Employee Experience Strategist Marc Haine. And today, my guest is one of the world's foremost experts in engineering growth systems for businesses. Chris Goguen. Today, he's here to help you break free from the chaos, escape the grind, and finally build a business that doesn't demand your sanity as the price for success. So, stick around. Stay with us. This is going to be an awesome high-value episode. You know, in business, we talk a lot about the big wins, the deals, the dollars, the dazzling innovations. There comes a point in every business where success becomes, well, a little suffocating. You've got customers. You've got sales. You've got momentum. And you've also got a calendar that looks like a disaster zone and a team that relies on you for every single decision. And that's not sustainable. And it's not what you signed up for. And that Which brings me to our Question of the Day. So, have you built a business that gives you freedom or one that traps you in a never-ending to-do list? I'd love to know what your experience is. Why don't you go ahead and share this episode on your favorite social media platform? Hashtag it #ExperienceLeadership. Put your comments down. and be part of this discussion. As I mentioned, my guest today is widely regarded as one of the world's foremost experts in engineering growth systems for businesses. From designing parts for the International Space Station to helping small business owners scale into the tens of millions of dollars, Chris Gogan has lived the full spectrum of what it means to build systems that work. He's worked with giants like Michael E. Gerber, the author of The E-Myth and his clients have generated over $165 million using his systems. He's helped save business owners thousands and thousands of hours annually. And get this, he once made over 100,000 cold calls and he only ever liked 3 of them. Chris is the founder and CEO of Engineered Growth Systems and he's on a mission to help good people build great businesses and exit wealthy. Chris, welcome to the show! This is so great to have you.

Well, thanks Marc. After that lead-in, I'm like excited to hear this guy talk.

Well, all you have to do is look in the mirror. So Chris, maybe you could start off by maybe tell us a little bit about what kind of clients you serve and what do you do for them?

Sure. So, I work with clients typically, you know, $1 million to $5 million in range. And they're looking to grow on scale, looking to get to $5, $10, $20, $50+ million. And most of them are looking to exit sometime within the next like 5, 10 years. And then, I've also had a number of people come to me who don't make quite that much, who are in the like under $20,000 a month range. And we're looking for, hey, how can I get some of that to help me in my business? So, I developed some resources for them.

Nice, nice. So, Chris, today we're talking about this idea of going from the grind to going to growth. Why does growing a business feel so overwhelming even when things seem to be going well in a business? There's this challenge of scaling.

Yeah, you know what? That used to surprise me because I used to think that when people hit a certain dollar amount, that there'd be no more problems in life. Once you cross that million-dollar mark, it was a big thing. Depends on the business, right? Service businesses, you know, whatever. Like, as soon as we cross a million or 2 or 3 million, all life's problems are going to go away, you know, because they're going to be money and clients are going to be flocking to you and, you know, you're going to have wealth and time and all the rest of this stuff. Um, you know, that's, you know, when I, when I started this journey, you know, 30-some, 35-plus years ago, that's kind of what I thought. But, you know, what I found is that it just takes a whole heck of a hard— a lot of hard work to get the business off the ground. You know, to get to get it where it's turn a profit, to get it where where it's it's or break even, and then you know where you're actually maybe making some money, and then you scrap, and you know, and maybe you cross a million dollar mark, maybe you know two three four five million. But but it's like you get there from from sheer hard work. You know, it's it's like what entrepreneurs do. It's like we don't like a lot of people don't come into things knowing like anything about systems or anything like that. We just We just figure out how to make a good product, how to make a good widget, a good service. And all of a sudden, there's a couple people that want it. And then, there's more and more and more. And then, we're really, really, really good technicians at what we do. But understanding like how to run a business is completely different.

And it is always going from basically one crisis to another.

Always.

So, I love that you're using Michael's E. Gerber using his terminology of the technician. Because I do find that most people in businesses are incidental leaders. I do find that even people who are in like middle management are also incidental leaders because they get promoted because they did really great work as the technician. Then, they're promoted into a leadership role with the whole adage of, oh, you know what, Chris? You're so awesome at what you do. Why don't we promote you and you could teach everybody else how to be as awesome as you are? And we don't give them the skills to develop properly. So, when we're thinking about this idea from the entrepreneurial journey, why is it that so many entrepreneurs fall into the grind trap? And they're just— it is crisis after crisis after crisis.

Yeah, yeah. You know, as you're saying that, it reminded me of that old joke. Behind every successful man, Is a surprised wife. You know, and and I think like kind of like as you're talking, it's like behind every successful person is they're also surprised too. Like you know when when they're they're in the company and they they get the promotion promotion, and then then all of a sudden they're like holy crap! Like like I'm I'm now I'm now managing this this department or I'm running this division like. Man, holy crap! I I don't feel equipped to do this. Or if you're running your business, you know, you're just grunting away, just grinding away, and then and and then you've got so I love that visual. You're just grunting, grinding away, and then and then all of a sudden there's like wait we've got some traction. We can really grow this thing. We can really take this thing to a new level. Holy crap, man! I am like so ill-equipped. Like I don't know. I don't I don't have tools. I don't know what to do. The only thing that I know is I know. Hard work. That's all that I know. And I know that I am darn good at solving problems and figuring things out. I can make things happen and I pride myself on that. I'm darn good at that. Yeah, but there's obviously like problems with that. The obvious is you're capped out. You only got 24 hours in a day. And the other problem with that is you just get burnt out because everything depends upon you.

Right.

Like I was talking with with a gal, very successful, very well recognized name. If I said it, like most people would probably know who it was. And they're saying it's like she's like she's like Chris. Like everything depends upon me. It's like if I stop, everything stops. And I've got too many mouths to feed, you know, in this company. And she's like that, my friend, is not that's not enjoyable. So, a lot of people are in that. And because they're great at getting things done, they're passionate about what they do. They know that they need to drive in revenue. They know to keep the doors open. They know that they have to take excellent care of their customers because that's what gives them referral business and keeps people sticking around. Plus, it's part of their DNA. They just want to provide excellent service to it. And so, they just feel like Atlas where the weight of the world is on your shoulders. Uh-huh. And every day is like Sisyphus, the Greek mythology with the guy that would roll every day. He'd roll the rock up the hill only to have it roll back down. So, it's like every day it's like that. Just working just to like not have this rock roll down. Forget about even getting to the top of the hill. I just wanted this thing to not roll down and crush me. And then, like over time, that just really builds up.

So, would it be fair to say that most people don't know that they need a system? I mean, you mentioned something that says, oh gosh, I can't keep up with it. I need a system. Do you find that the entrepreneurial world that there's that much self-reflection in the problem? Or is it more blaming everything around the problem?

Yeah, great question. I think it's kind of like a little bit of everything. Like, I think kind of initially, you start blaming everything around the problem. Oh, these prospects are garbage. They're not They don't follow up. They're not returning calls or they're not this or not that. And our customer service department sucks. They're not answering phone calls or not being timely on stuff. So, there's some of that. And people usually don't know about systems. Usually, how they try to solve it is by throwing somebody at it. I'll hire somebody to take care of it.

Or creating a policy.

Creating a policy, right? Those, yeah. How well do those work, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, they'll typically like one of the first things they do is create a policy or they just hire somebody. I don't want to deal with this. So, I want somebody else to deal with this. And I don't want to figure it like I don't want to figure this thing out. So, you figure it out. So, that's abdicating responsibility. And I think I've been guilty of that. I don't know any business owner that hasn't been guilty of that.

Right. Are there any myths about being productive that we need to bust? Because you talk to an awful lot of people and people are like, oh, I'm so busy. Oh, busy. You don't know how busy I am. Are there like, are there some productivity myths we need to bust now?

Well, I'm sure for every one I say, you can name 5. But yeah, first of all, I think that whole productivity myth is a myth in itself.

How so?

Well, like I'm so busy. First of all, I don't want to be busy. Like I don't want to be busy. Like I consider myself ambitiously lazy, where I'm ambitious because I want to be lazy. You know, I don't want to be— maybe in my 20s and 30s, yeah, you know, I kind of like having stuff going on and being in the middle of stuff. I got this doing, got that going on, that going on. Man, as I get older, it's like I don't want to have a lot. I don't want to be busy, you know. And so, all this stuff comes up. Hey, you can do more. Do all these posts. Do all this, you know, like, Like be be active on social media. You know, just just shoot this video of yourself. So so it's like busy feels good. It feels like you're doing something. It feels like you're being you're being productive. But but it's like are you really being productive? You know, and like like why are you busy? Like are you getting to where you want to go? You know, like like like like why? Like why be busy? Like that you know personal like being more efficient with your time. Well, if you're efficient doing the wrong things, who cares?

So, is that the difference between productivity and busy is efficiency? Or is there more to it?

Well, no, I think there's more to it. I think the difference between productivity and busy, I think busy to me is just like running around like a chicken with your head cut off. You're just doing stuff because it feels good to do stuff. But when you're frustrated, you're stuck, you're overwhelmed, whatever, you're doing stuff. It feels great because, hey, look at all— I'm doing stuff. I feel good because that's what got you to the level where you're at is doing stuff. Productive is okay. You can be productive, but are you like meaning I'm getting stuff done and it's good stuff that I'm working on? But is it the right stuff? You know, is it because you get it? You can be productive on stuff that you shouldn't be doing. You know, like, like, you know, one client was, you know, became really productive on solving customer service issues. where his biggest opportunity was just in scaling the business. He had an incredibly massive opportunity. So yes, he was very productive on that end. But the bigger opportunity was being more productive on developing the front-end growth engine systems. So, you want to be productive and then you want to like do the work and then make sure that you're moving in the direction of where you want to go.

So, from what I'm getting from that is productivity is really centered on goal objectives, not just being productive and getting stuff done. It's not necessarily about a checklist. It's about moving in the right direction, doing the right things to get you to where you want to go.

Yep, 100%.

Gotcha.

Yeah.

Earlier, you mentioned burnout. How widespread is that among founders and managers, entrepreneurs? Usually, when people are really passionate about what they're doing, burnout seems to be set aside. So, at what point does that energy, that dedication, that passion of what we're doing start to lead to this idea of burnout?

Well, here's a good question for anybody listening to this. It's like wondering if you have burnout. Like, ask yourself, am I burnt out? But don't ask yourself that all day. Ask yourself that at 3 AM when you wake up. And you can't sleep because your mind won't shut off? Ask yourself that when you're just diving into the day. Ask yourself at the end of the day when you should be going home, spending time with your spouse and kids. And so, I was reading some stats on this and it said that there's a study that was done. It said 1 in 2 founders reported experiencing burnout. This was in 2024. I don't know if that number is low or high. That stat in itself is pretty startling. You know, 1 out of 2 is experiencing burnout. I can tell you that just about everybody that I work with has experienced burnout. And like a lot of them, they're just like, I just don't know what to do. Like, I'm burnt out. I'm stressed out. I'm overwhelmed. But see, The owner, the founder, the CEO, the manager—they can't say that publicly because they have to be the Rock of Gibraltar. Right now, left alone with their thoughts, they'll say that. Put together, put them in in a you know group of peers, and that that's a common thing that that a lot of people will you know will talk about. You know, so it's it's a. It's a pretty big problem. And it's one that it pains me that people have that.

Well, and you could see it in the end result. Like, I was blessed to be working as an economic development officer for a community and going around to business, to business, to business. I can walk into a business and I know right away, have they lost the love? And it's really interesting because we stopped taking care of certain things. And we say that in the hospitality trade, in restaurants. If you want to know if it's a good restaurant or not, go to the bathroom first and see how clean it is. Because if the bathroom is messy, chances are the kitchen is going to be disgusting. Right? And so, how much focus people put onto their business is really tied to the passion and the kind of pride that they have in that business. Once that burnout starts to happen, pride gets set aside and it's like, I just need to get through the day.

Yeah, no, 100%. And I was laughing as you're saying that because I remember back when I was a young engineer with Ford Motor Company. This is in the late '80s and they're turning their quality around, investing a lot of money into it. And I was a young engineer, green behind the ears. And I was working with a senior engineer who was like half retired.

Yeah.

And he was mentoring me and helping me. We're going on tours of a vendor's plant. And you know, whatever vendor we selected, we're going to give them millions of dollars of business. And and and so so you know, we're we're doing the tour, and he stopped, and he goes, "Chris, come come to the come to the washroom or come to the bathroom with me." Like his name was Fred. I'm like, "Fred." It's like, "You know what? No, I I I don't have to go." He goes, "No, come to the bathroom with me." It's like, "Fred, no, I I don't know where this is going, but I don't know. But no," he goes. Come with me. I'm like, I'm like, okay. So so so we we went in the bathroom and um and and and he he looked. He goes, the reason why I want I wanted you to see this is because you can tell how well a business runs itself. He goes, because when we're going through the business, they have the parade route. You know, it's all set up and it's going to be clean and neat and orderly, and everything's going to be ticker tape. Everything's going to be exactly how it should be. He goes, but you come to the bathroom and you know and you can see like how well they take care of the details here is how well they take care of. And that has always stood out with me. I teach my kids that lesson. We go to restaurants like, if you want to know the quality of the food, let's look at, you know, go in the washroom and see how clean that is. If you're wondering if there's roaches running around the kitchen, well, look at the bathroom. That's a sham. Then, you know what I mean? It doesn't matter like what the price on the menu is.

You can also find out a lot about the leadership culture through the bathroom as well because that's where the The posters are plastered. All employees must wash their hands. It's like, hmm, okay, that's how we're going to speak to our staff. It's amazing how people do these things that they don't understand the wider parameters of what that creates as far as the business and so on. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And I always, when I see those signs, I always wonder, it's like, do they need to have those signs up for people to remember to wash their hands?

Right? Yeah.

Or shouldn't people just be washing their hands like automatically? Like, if you have to tell them to, maybe you hired the wrong person.

Yeah, or you're not training them, not setting expectations early enough and that sort of thing. I mean, it's all sorts of wafts of issues. But you know what? I'd love to dig into some strategies that leaders can use to move themselves now from this idea of being in the grind all the time to moving to growth. And we'll get to that right after this.

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Welcome back! I am speaking with Chris Gogan. Chris, I just pushed my book. I see something on your bulletin board. Is that something coming up? Is that a book you're working on right now?

Well, I wrote an ebook like years ago, Client Acquisition Systems, to build client acquisition systems. I'm working on a new one just on engineering growth systems for your business to really help an owner scale and to have more growth and more freedom, more time, more enjoyment in their business.

I love that. I love that. And so, when do you expect that to be published?

Working on it. Maybe like later on this year, early next year.

Okay, well, keep a surprise to it because I'd like to put the link in the show notes here. Because of course, it has everything to do with what we're talking about today. The leadership, it's interesting because we got into this whole idea of leadership mindset and this idea of scaling. I think it was Dan Sullivan who wrote the book, 10 Times Is Easier Than 2 Times.

Yeah.

And this idea of scaling where people just say, I got this far because I worked really hard. I'm just going to work harder now and get Why is this the wrong mindset?

Yeah, that whole like 10 times easier than 2 times is— when I first heard that, I didn't really understand it. But then, when I looked at it, then I understood it. And it makes perfect sense because with— and this is where it opens up your mind to a new way of doing things. Where I was on a call with a client and Their business was doing well. And I'm like, how'd you like to double your business? You know, without missing a heartbeat, said, I would. They were like, I would love to double it. Love to. I'm like, okay, great. Just think about all the things you're doing right now and just do twice as much of it. You know, all the outreach you're doing, just double that up. You know, the sales, double that. You know, sales calls, double that up. You know, the onboarding of new clients, just double that up. Everything you do, just double that. And then, and then they stop and they're like, Oh crap! It's like I don't want to double my business. Well, not that, not that way anyhow. So, so if you take any business, forget about like, like the glamour of it. Okay, going from one million to ten million. Yeah, I'd love that. It's like no, actually think about the details of that. Like what am I doing on an on an everyday basis? You know, like, like you know, in fact, just take a calendar and like every fifteen minutes or half hour, you know, jot down. You just an Excel spreadsheet, whatever. Just, just jot down what you're doing every fifteen minutes, half hour. How are you spending your time? And then, okay, well, if I want to 10x my growth, can I just 10x all these things? And the answer is obvious, right? It's like, no. So then, the question after that is like, would you like to be able to— well, first of all, is there enough room in the market for you to 10x your business? Like, is there enough potential out there? Is there a market out there? And is there a market out there for what you offer? To 10x. And so, yeah, but what about— but you don't— no, no, no, no, no. I understand all that. Let's just set all that aside. Just first of all, is there opportunity in the marketplace if we could solve all these other things? I don't know if we could. But if we could, is there opportunity to 10x? And they're like, yeah, for sure. So, it's like, okay, great. Well, would you want to 10x your business? Meaning, let's say we can 10x your business not in a way that destroys your soul and you sacrifice everything on the altar of success. Where where you can have more impact, you can help more people. They can still have that five-star experience, but you can actually like have more time. Would you want that? Would you want that? You know, and then usually it's like, yeah, I would. You know, but because well, it's it's a no-brainer, right? Who like like like who wouldn't? Um, yeah. And then but then and and then the question comes up to like well. How? Like, how's that possible? Because from what I've learned so far, so them thinking, everything I've done so far, this is not possible. Like, I don't understand. Like, Kris, how does this work? How can you do this?

Yeah. Well, it's interesting because when you do talk about 10x-ing somebody's business or somebody working on their business to 10x it, their first response for many of the entrepreneurs is, that is impossible because I'm already working the max I possibly can. There's no way I can 10x it. And so, We have leaders falling back on, this is the way it's always been. I've always done it. What needs to happen to shake that mantra? Because to get people from where they are today is they're going to need a completely different set of systems and skill sets to move to scaling their business up bigger. Because to your point, like you said earlier, there's only 24 hours in a day. There's only so many hours one particular person can work. So, we have to start doing things differently.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And before doing that is so you need hope, right? You need hope in the opportunity. So, it's like they have to know that it's possible. I remember listening to Les Brown talk many years ago. He's like, I'm not going to try to imitate his voice but like, is it possible? So, they have to understand like, look at, hey, is it possible for me to do this? Like, is it possible for me to take— take whatever business you're in and look at anybody in your industry? Like, hey, have they grown? Whether you're an HVAC company, you're doing $1 million. Is there another HVAC company doing $10 million? There's lots of them. I've worked with them. You know, is there— is there like professional services or any, like, you know, doing like 10x what you're doing? Yeah, there are. You know, so, so like, is it possible? You know, they got— they got to— they got to like be open-minded to the fact that, yeah, hey, it is possible. And then they got to like figure out like, do I want to? You know, like, let's like, like, what do you like? What do you mean, do I want to? I said, well, what would life look like? You know, your business is 10x. Let's kind of like, you know, like, like look out in the future. Let's say it's 3 years from now, 5 years from now. You know, we had one client that went from $3 million to $10 million in one year, you know, and saved $2 million in expenses, you know. So is it possible? A lot of stuff is possible. But like, let's look at like, would you want that? Would you want to have a business that runs? Or do you want to be waking up every morning with your hair on fire? A cup of coffee in your hand and hair on fire like all day long. Or would you rather have a business that's running smoothly and efficiently? And so, they got to like want it. My dad used to always say that. He always used to talk to me about this Indian tribe called the Gatawanas. And every story was about the Gatawanas. And I guess I should be saying Indigenous like Storybook got along with. And it's just about having just that internal desire.

Right.

You know, like you gotta want to do something. You gotta want to. So then, sometimes it's just a matter of like them looking, okay, well, do I want to do this? And then, the biggest question that really stops most entrepreneurs, and this is one of the things that stops most people dead in their tracks. Is can you change? Right, because when you're going, when you're starting to add systems in, there's systems that will free you up. And if you really want to grow and scale and do something like like incredible, you got to change where you got to be able to let go of the control. Like where and a lot of entrepreneurs their identity is tied in in their business. And what they do. So, so they, they'll lose that identity and, and they don't know what to do with it. They freak out and then, and then they, they all start grabbing control and pulling and pulling it back in. And, and, and they don't, they don't want to really let go of that. So, that is probably the, the biggest, the biggest problem. Like, I remember like, I worked with Michael Gerber for a number of years and I remember Michael, like talking with Michael, saying, "Hey, what's what's the biggest thing that that that you want to do with with business owners?" You know, in in this one conversation we're talking, he goes, "You know, he goes, Chris goes, I want them to realize that they're the problem. Because once once I get them to realize that they're the problem, he goes, then we can go to work on fixing it. You know, and and and so so it's it's not that you are a problem." It's that your problem is you're limiting what you can do.

Yes, because you're using the frame of reference to your existing circumstance.

Yes.

Right? So, as long as people are saying, well, I can't double my business because I can't get enough staff. Or I can't double my business because the customers just aren't coming in. Right? And so, as long as we can start shaking kind of everything we're pointing to and turn around to your point, starting with yourself. What do I need to change if I want to double my systems? Because we have to— too many entrepreneurs and too many managers have a hero complex that they want it all to come from them. They want to be the hero. They want to be able to go to the Chamber of Commerce meeting and go, hey, guess what I did this week?

Right, right. And one of the things that I found is because I always tried to fix that or help people that still have the hero complex and get there. But I found that before that change can happen, life usually goes like that.

Yes.

Because anyone driven, more work and harder work gets more stuff done. Right? But then it happens with everything, right? Like relationships. It's like what I'm doing, like my relationship sucks, my kids hate me, my wife hates me, whatever it is. It's like my friends hate me. It's like I got no friends. It's like, well, it causes you to look in the mirror and have an honest look. Okay, well, what do I need to change? What am I doing? So in the business, it's like, man, if you're stuck, you're hitting a wall and you're not getting where you want to go, It's just like you just need to like stop, hit pause, and like look at like, hey, you know what? I need to look at things in a new light, a new perspective. Like, what do I need to change? What do I need to stop doing? What do I need to start doing?

Right. So, you are a systems kind of guy. You have growth systems and freedom systems. What are they and how do they work together?

Yeah, so working with businesses, there's really like 2 things that I come across with businesses. One is, I want to grow. Like, I'm doing well, but I want to grow. And a lot of times their growth has been through— they've gotten where they are through hard work and then through referrals and things like that. So, so when you want to grow, now you got to start doing some outreach. Um, and so you can do it manually or you can do it with systems. So, so there's a whole growth systems where we, we can do more outreach. Um, And I've got a video on like a self-assessment on this, like where you can self-analyze yourself to see where you are, you know, green, yellow, red on marketing, sales, and fulfillment. But anyhow, so you got the growth systems where you can like, you know, 10x your business without 10xing your time. And then the other side is like, people are like, hey, Chris, I do want to grow. There's plenty of market where I'm at. But I don't have any time. Like one client who was making about $4 million a year. And when we started working, he had time. We went to work on his growth systems and he built those growth systems which got him about $20 million. But then, he's like, I got no time. And so, it's like, okay, well, we need to go to work on your freedom systems. Meaning, we need to like systematize and have other people do what you're doing. Yeah. So, so you can back your time off from there. And then, so if we can free your time up from all those things that you're doing to run the business, to keep it going, and we've got, we've got a system and people running the systems that's, that's working without you doing everything, now we can take you and focus you back on, on the growth side. And, you know, and so, so we built those, we built those freedom systems in, and then just some 3 years later, went from $20 million to $50 million. And then had a very nice life-changing exit on that. So, he went from $4 million to $50 million in a little over 5 years from building both systems and freedom systems. It's not typical. Everyone's got a different time frame. Some are longer. Some, I know some people do stuff shorter. But it takes time to build stuff.

Yeah, this is— I'm sure this will resonate with a lot of Entrepreneurs and leaders that are on this podcast. Could you let everybody know how they can get in touch with you if this is resonating with them?

Yeah, sure. You go to my website, chrisgoegan.com. That's Chris, C-H-R-I-S. Or you can email me chris@chrisgoegan.com. There's some great resources on the site. You can go there and get some things on there. So yeah, and then a simple email too if you want to start a conversation.

Perfect! For people tuning in, what's one simple change that business owners can make this week that will have a major impact on their time, on their business building, and on their profits?

Yeah, so all change starts with a desire to change.

Right.

Right? So, So they gotta want, they gotta wanna, they gotta wanna hit a new level. So, so biggest thing is like, like I always tell people, man, it's like just unplug. Just like, like go for a walk in the woods, you know, go to the beach, go like, like, like wherever, like whatever recharges you, go there. And, and then just like remember when you started your business? Remember how like I had this dream of, you know, this vision of like what you had and what you wanted to do and that passion in it. Well, along the lines that that passion has gone away. It's still there but instead of it being ablaze, it's now an ember. So, go back and look at things and say, gosh, it's like, what do I want to do? Like say, 5 years from now, if I could make my business look like anything I wanted to look like in 5 years from now, what would I want it to look like? Because know that whatever you want it to look like, if there's a demand for your product or service, We can engineer and build systems to get you there.

Hmm.

So, just play like play in the sandbox. Just sit there and like just imagine, gosh, what can I do? Wouldn't it be cool if, gosh, honey, wouldn't it be great if we could take a vacation like once a year? How about we take 3 vacations a year? How about if we take 2 weeks off? How about if we took a month off? How about if we grew from 1 location and we grew into like 50 locations? And and I'm spending less time working the business, and I'm working thirty hours a month. Or sorry, a week. I mean, you could do a month too, right? But but it's like just just and I've got clients that have done that, you know. So it's just like just just pick come up with this new vision, you know, of like of of what you want, and then and that's that's the starting point. Because if you have that and you've got a good product and service, man, there are systems. And we could talk for hours and hours and hours on what these systems are and the technical details of all this. But there's growth systems and freedom systems. Growth systems agree to grow your business. Freedom systems to free you up from doing everything in the business. So, it's like, have something compelling. Have something exciting. And then, you got to have that gotta wanna. So, that's the thing that I would do. I would do that.

I love that. I love that. I think having the vision, having a vision of where you want to be And then, that helps you get clarity of where you are today. And a lot of times, the solution of how to get to where you want to be becomes much clearer even though you might not know how to do it. But you get clarity that you now know you need to change, which I think is brilliant.

Well, a big thing. So like Michael Gerber did the Dreaming Room for years. And the Dreaming Room was for business owners who had already done well. And it's for them to come and reimagine their business. And he's like, start off with a blank sheet of paper. And I remember talking with him about this, like, well, a lot of them coming in here, they don't know what they want. He goes, I know. And he goes, but they know what they don't want. And knowing what you don't want is a good starting point. I don't want to be working 68 hours a week. I don't want to be working Saturdays and Sundays. I don't want to be missing my kids' hockey or baseball or ballet. I don't want to have like strained relationships with wife and spouse and kids. And I don't want to have like, I don't want to be fat. I don't want to be like all these things that you don't want. Well, so that's really important. So, if you can know what you don't want, so then take those all the things I don't want. Well, what would be the opposite of that? What would the opposite look like? I don't want this. So, what would that look like?

I could see that that's probably a very simple exercise to start with listing one column. Listing what you don't want and just keep on going until you've exhausted everything you don't want. And then, to the right of that, just write everything that you do. Like the opposite of that, of what you do want. What would create that clarity for you? I love that. That's a great idea.

And then, if you want to like add some teeth to that, so it's okay, here's what I don't want. Here's what I do want. Then, you can just look at, well, like Just pull up some basic business metrics. Like, look at, okay, well, what are our revenues right now? What are our sales right now? Like, how about our customers? Like, what kind of feedback are we getting? Are we getting like 5-star reviews on everything? And then, if you want to go like last thing, if you want to drill it even deeper. So, look at your big goals. So, you got the vision. Look at your big goals and then, you can just say, okay, well, take inventory of what you're doing. Just look at like, how am I spending my day? Like, how much time are you spending on social media? How many— how much time are you spending on, you know, on X or Instagram or LinkedIn?

Or video games or whatever.

Doing stuff, right? It's like, look at how you're spending your time. And then, it's okay. Well, how I'm spending my time, does it match like what I need to do to get here, you know, to get to where I want? Because if I don't, here's the thing. If I don't change what I'm doing, Am I going to change what I'm seeing in my life?

No, you keep doing what you've always done.

Are my relationships going to get better? Or am I going to feel better about myself? You know what I mean? So, it's like those are just some vision. Look at some honest metrics in your business and then look at how you're spending your time.

Love that! I'd like to get into some pitfalls and cautionaries. I'm always afraid that people will take information create a little band-aid policy or something, or a band-aid hit of the month, and then it doesn't stick. So, we'll get to some cautionaries right after this.

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Welcome back! I hope you are getting tons of value from today's episode. As you can tell, Kris and I are on a mission to support businesses just like yours. So, if you belong to an organization that could use our help or You or somebody you know might be planning a leadership retreat or a conference and you need speakers with amazing thought leadership, then drop us a line. We'd love to explore how we could be of service to you and your people. Chris, one thing that people get wrong when they try to systematize their business, what would that be?

They don't call Marc.

Right? Or Chris. Would it be fair to say that trying to do something by yourself when you've never been trained to do it is akin to guaranteeing failure.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Because ultimately, we talked before we went live today. We were talking about the whole philosophy of these incidental leaders. People open up shops because they have a passion for the business. But they don't necessarily know HR systems. They don't necessarily know leadership skills that they need to move forward. They don't know anything about finance. And so, there's a waft of things Business owners don't need, don't know. So, what can they do then to make sure that they tap into the brilliance that's already out there?

So, I can tell you from the hundreds of clients that I've worked with, I can tell you what people typically do before we talk. They typically will read the latest book, the book du jour. And then, they'll get excited about that and then, they'll implement that or attempt to implement it. And they'll spend a week or a month or several months or a year or whatever on the latest tactic. And then, they do the next one and the next one, the next one. Or they try to do 10 tactics at one time. And then, nothing works after 30 days. They throw it out the window. So, they're doing too much of the thing du jour. And I'm all for learning and improving and getting better. But a lot of the employees, when I'm working with a company looking to help them grow, drive more leads, drive more sales, develop those growth systems, when I'm talking with people in the business, they're like, yeah, we tried so many different things and he's always got some cockamamie scheme of what's going to happen to get us there. So, I mean, that's just what everybody's going to do anyhow. So, I mean, God bless you. Go do it. And then, waste 2, 3, 4, 5 years doing that. And then, we can have a conversation about it because like when people— here's one example. The thing I hear all the time is, okay, I want to grow so we need more sales. So, we need more sales so we need more leads. We need more leads. We need more Marketing. We need more marketing, so we need more traffic programs. So what's the latest traffic scheme we can do? LinkedIn, Google, you know, Instagram, Facebook, X, videos, emails, funnels, um, posting, whatever. You've all heard these before. I know I'm not the only one getting like spam blasted with all this stuff. So, so they like, they try all these things and none of them works. They all fall flat and they all don't get the results that they were led to believe Or hope they would get, right? And then so, so when I talk with them, they're like, you know, I remember like, like, um, work— working with this one very famous, uh, brain doctor, and he's like talking with his team. He's like, yeah, we, we tried— they went down this whole list of things that they tried, and they're like, none of them work. I'm like, well, that's interesting because I've got clients in kind of similar businesses where we did these things and they worked. So is it that they didn't work or the method that was used didn't necessarily work? And they're like, huh, okay. That's, you know, they do this thing and scrunch their eyebrows. Okay, that's interesting. You got my attention. So, I said, okay, well, look. Here's why our engineered approach has worked so well. Like, I'm not a genius. If anyone thinks I am, I'll let them spend 5 minutes with my wife or kids.

They'll tell you the truth.

They'll tell you the truth. There are a lot of things I don't know. Systems, I know extremely well. And so, what I found on the growth side, so this methodology called engineered marketing is most people start with traffic. We start with a selling system. We start off what's unique and special and different about you. Come up with that. Look at that differentiation and let's really, really, really make that differentiation clear. Now, let's figure out how to sell that differentiation. And once we know how to sell that differentiation, Now, let's start throwing a whole loaf of bread at the pigeons. Let's pull off one slice and start tossing out little breadcrumbs to get people to consume bigger bite-sized pieces. I call this a human engagement factor. We've got this whole human engagement factor where 1 second buys you 3 seconds. 3 seconds buys you 30 to 60 seconds. That buys you 5 minutes, which buys you a 15-minute phone call, which buys you—

30 minutes.

an hour call or an engagement which buys you a bigger engagement, a bigger engagement, and a bigger engagement. So, I call that a slide. So, it's your whole client acquisition slide. And I say, okay, well, why don't we grease that slide and then strap a jetpack on people's back to get them to come down faster? So, I call it like building out your greased slide. So, when we figure out what's unique and special about you, we figure out how to sell that, and then we figure out how to take, take the breadcrumbs and toss them out there, then, then that's, that's when we can build these magical systems. Like, you know, um, like what, like, you know, one, uh, system, you know, I built, I had it running on, on Google for 13 years. I hadn't touched it. You know, um, people talk about Facebook and Instagram and how ads fatigue. Well, we've got one ad that's, that's been running for 6 years without touching it. And it and it continues to pull in excellent results. You know, we've got stuff. So I'm a big believer on like on like doing stuff right and not doing a hundred million things all at once. It's like no no no. I've got I've got this methodology in the system. Let's create that differentiation. Let's create what's unique and special. And now let's put that message out in front of people because your best prospects will resonate with it and everyone else won't. And we don't want everyone to resonate with it. Like I want everyone else. I don't want to talk to anybody. And my clients want to talk to anybody. That's a time waster, a tire kicker. So, we tailor everything for your best clients. And so, when you build this up with these systems, so everything we do, it's like engineered. It's engineered to produce a result, not just kind of doing stuff because it feels good.

Right, right. This all makes perfect sense. But it's a very strategic approach rather than kind of this emotional kind of It's a backwards and forwards principle.

Yeah, backwards and forwards principle. And one of the things that I hear a lot is because it's like I teach business owners to also look at, once we work with, to look at their business from a non-emotional standpoint. Like meaning, be passionate about what you're doing, passionate about the result that you're bringing to your market. But let's not get emotional about looking at things. So like one client, we're looking at, he had like Half dozen traffic sources he was using. You know, it's like, okay, well, let's let's let's look at how each one of these are producing. It's like I have no idea. It's like, okay, well, let's let's put some measurements in place. So so we put put a little meter, you know, on on on every single one of them, and then it's like, hey, well, let's come back in thirty days and let's let's let's look at the numbers. So we came back in thirty days. We looked at the numbers, and three of them, two of them were killing it. One was meh. And 3 are crap. So, it's okay. Well, where do you want to spend your money? He's like, I don't want to spend on these garbage ones. Okay, well, cut those off. The 2 that are doing good, what should you do? He goes, well, can I spend more on those? Like, yeah, let's do it. And then, the one that's doing mediocre, he had a conversation with the sales rep and they're like, hey, look. He told the sales rep, your rate is this. I can pay you this.

Yeah.

I sent over here. It's not going to work for me. So, do you want it or not? And they're like, sure.

Or you re-strategize it, right? You take a look at it and you re-strategize it to figure out how you make it more productive. But that's one of the important things, right? That is measure, measure, measure, measure. And because you measure what matters.

Measure what matters. And if you can measure it, you can improve it, right? And so, that tells you where to spend your time on. I love it. Yeah, it's way more efficient doing that.

This has been such a fantastic conversation. Chris, could you remind everybody one more time how they can get a hold of you?

Yeah, sure. So, they go to my website, chrisgoegan.com, C-H-R-I-S Goegan, G-O-E-G-A-N dot com. Or you can email me, chris@chriscoegan.com.

Perfect! And as we wrap up, do you have any last thoughts about what we've been talking about today?

Yeah, you know what? It's like you've worked so hard to build something spectacular like your product, your service. It's like you're the best at what you do. Like you know it and everyone you work with knows it, right? So, here's a challenge for you. It's like, why not build a business that's as great as the product or service? that you offer. Could you imagine what you could do if you had a business that was as great as your product or service? Could you imagine having leads from multiple lead sources coming in whether you do anything or not? Could you imagine if those leads are turning into sales without you doing anything or not? Could you imagine if those sales were then delivered upon, had a 5-star customer experience, and you didn't— you wouldn't have to be— you weren't involved with it, and it was profitable, and your employees were happy and like excited to be there, thrilled. And you cast a vision and your team would just roll it out and do the work. You take a month off and go, you know, and go, go, go up by Mark and hike through. I did this last summer. It's like I hiked through Banff and Lake Louise and Moraine Lake and Jasper. I mean, everyone should do that. Everyone should go visit. Hire Marc. Go visit Marc and then do a tour up there. I say that like joking but I'm not joking. It's like they should. It's absolutely spectacular. But just imagine if you had a business. Like, you know what you're doing right now. You know how hard you're working. And you've been successful because of that hard work and you've done so well because of that. Now, it's like, why not reward yourself? Let's create the business that's as amazing as your product or service and have that leads are coming in. They're being closed. They're being delivered upon. You're profitable. Profit margins are happening. Taxes are getting filed. And you don't have to worry about any of this. You're just sitting there like just basking and loving it. And the biggest thing that's going to occupy your mind is like, how can I help more people? Or what's next? Because everyone's got this what's next. Like whether it's a whole new massive growth level or if it's just like, no, you know what? I've got this passion project I've always wanted to do. Now, my business is cooking and I'm working 20 hours a week, 10 hours a week. Let me start this passion project and fuel this foundation and get this thing up and going.

I love that. What a vision! For anybody tuning in, how does that vision resonate with you? I'd love to get your comments. Why don't you go ahead, put your comments in the in the comment box because I'd love to know, would that be a vision that you could hang your hat on? Because I think that's a brilliant way of being able to put it, Chris.

Thank you.

Yeah, Chris, this has been spectacular. Thank you very much for being here. I appreciate your knowledge. Your passion is obviously like front and center and your expertise is off the charts. Thank you so much for being here and helping us with this today.

My pleasure. And Marc, may I add one thing?

Sure.

I do have, if someone wants to learn like the growth side of this, on my website I've got the 3 Systems Guide. You can go. It'll be front and center. You'll find it no problem on the website. That'll help you with the growth engine side of things.

Love it! And the link is in the show notes for that. So, make sure you click on the link in the show notes. Go over to Chris's website and get that worksheet. Thank you very much, Chris. It's been awesome.

Awesome! Thanks, Marc. Thanks for allowing me to share.

If you have any questions about today's episode or you would like a complimentary 30-minute brainstorming session with you and your team, feel free to book yourself on my online calendar. The link is down below. It's the one that's marked meetwith.marchaine.com. And make sure that you go to Chris's website as well because we are here to serve you. And if you haven't done so yet, please make sure that you're subscribed to this podcast. Follow me on social media. Make sure that you interact. Why don't you make sure you interact? Reach out. Say hi. We're here for you and we'd love to get into a conversation with you. Thank you so much for joining me today. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and I hope and I dare you to be the exception. Thanks so much!