Getting Past the 4P Marketing Framework to One that Works

Most of what we've learned about in marketing, we learned ages ago. Today though, almost as fast as technology changes, marketing and our audience expectations for marketing have changed as well. This leads to a huge problem of us trying to get our message out, spending tons of money on outdated and ineffective practices while trying to be the solution to their problem, not by becoming the problem. And that's what we're talking about today on Marc Haine Live. Welcome to this episode! This is where small business owners and entrepreneurs pick up core skill sets to help them create the show-stopping, jaw-dropping experience that their customers and their employees deserve. I am your host, Service Expert and Master of Experiences Marc Haine. I am so glad that you're here with me today. My returning guest for this episode is one of the best experts on scaling for growth, Randall Craig. If you saw past episodes, Randall came on and we just, we were blown out of the water. Today, we will be discussing how you can think differently about your marketing and your marketing initiatives. My one ask is that if you know somebody who could use this information, please share the episode. Knowledge is power but only if we share it. It used to be if you needed a product or a service, you'd talk to a friend or a neighbor and get recommendations. Failing that, you'd pick up this big Yellow Pages phone book, look up a category, and find the company that out to you and you'd start making phone calls. If you really wanted to do some research and do a deep dive on the company, you'd call the Better Business Bureau. They'd know for sure if the company was trustworthy. That is, if anybody reported them for any misdeeds. But then, once you've done that research, you would then make your decision. Now, if you are a millennial, Gen Y, or Gen Z, all you heard from Yellow Pages on was blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Because today, we have Google. But that brings us to our Question of the Day. How are you getting noticed and how are you building your know, like, and trust factor? I'd love for you to share your experience with us. So, feel free to to make a comment wherever you're consuming this. Hashtag it #ExperienceLeadership and be part of this conversation. I am so excited to have Randall Craig back on the show with us. He is the author of 8 books. He is a Business Growth Advisor and a Hall of Fame Speaker. Randall serves on both corporate and not-for-profit boards and frequently appears as an expert in the media. He has earned the FCMC designations, CFA, MBA, and his CSP designations, and has a Black Belt in Karate. Randall has also been inducted into the Canadian Speaker Hall of Fame. He leads the Brain Trust Professional Institute and aside from his books, shares his unique and often timely innovative perspectives through his keynotes and his virtual presentations and over 600 articles. He has his own podcast called So Here's Randall, thank you so much for coming back. This is thrilling!

Marc, thanks so much for having me. This is always fun speaking with somebody who's as good as you are.

Oh, thank you. Before we get into today's topic, could you just uncover for us a little bit of what you do and how you serve your clients?

Yeah, so I'm a professional speaker. So, I get up in front of groups and I share my ideas, particularly on marketing frameworks. And how you can grow your business with some perhaps new thinking. I coach CEOs, founders, and leaders in entrepreneurial innovative companies on how to scale their business. And I run the Brain Trust Professional Institute, which is an online learning platform to teach about thought leadership and becoming a trusted advisor and so on. So, those are the 3 things I do. And yeah, I've written a few books along the way too.

Always the busy soul. Today, we are talking specifically about thinking differently about marketing. Why in your opinion is this such a timely topic today?

Well, I think that it's a timely topic today because so often, businesses that have had some success have been doing so based on what they may have learned years ago. So, if you think about it, way back in the 1940s, people kind of built a business because back at the club, somebody says, use so-and-so. And that's what— or maybe in the 1950s, there's a pitchman on TV with real creamed hair saying, buy this product. And you say, whoa, that's somebody who's endorsing it. But in the 1960s, there was a transformational thing that happened. And that transformational thing was a marketing framework. So, if you're somebody who's gone to MBA school or attended a marketing workshop somewhere or other, you may have heard of, for example, a framework called the 4 Ps. The idea is that if you sort of define and describe each of the 4 Ps— price, product, place, and promo— then abracadabra, You will have a marketing plan. And the reason why this was so fundamentally different than before is because for the first time ever, we were able to sort of describe what we needed to do in those 4 areas. And it didn't matter what the product or service is. As long as you sort of put something in each of those 4 boxes, you're going to be okay. The problem with 4P, and there's a whole bunch of other ones as well, is that they weren't directional. They were descriptive. So, it describes those things. So, what the problem is, is that yes, when you've built a business based on some of these older frameworks, maybe you're not using the best of today thinking on how to grow your business to the next level. Or more creatively connect in with whoever your clients and prospects are. Or be more efficient with whatever your spend happens to be, or figure out how to use some of these newer digital kind of marketing things that came about. It's, you know, listen, there's just one prospect and one client. There's not like a digital version and a real-life version and so on. And so, the marketing framework has got to encompass really that journey that somebody goes through. And that's what I wanted to share with you and the viewers today.

Wonderful! You mentioned descriptive versus directional. This idea of having descriptive kind of frameworks. Is this the only ineffective process you're seeing in current marketing practices?

You know, there's an expression that says, 10 businesses, 11 opinions. Like 10 business leaders, 11 opinions, right? So, there's many ways to do it right. Okay? One particular kind of company might say, well, actually let me take a step back. I wasn't going to talk about it today but I will. Every business competes on 3 dimensions: price, expertise, and trust. Price, expertise, and trust. One business for example may say, you know what? We've driven our costs down so that our price to the end user, to the consumer, to the business, whoever it is, we can be cheaper than anyone else. And that's how we're going to drive up the volume. Others say, well, we know how to solve the problem. We don't care about you. We care about how you can solve the problem. So, we're the best. We invest in our people. We've got the best R&D. We get the best product servicemen. But we can solve it. We do better than others. We got reviews. We got testimonials, everything. We're the best. Okay, we're most efficient. Right. And that's expertise. And trust is, you know what? We have your best interests at heart. Whatever we say, you're going to trust us. And we were going to work hard on that trust dimension so that yeah, price is value. That's table stakes. Yes, expertise. Well, guess what? If you're not an expert, you're not going to be able to solve our problem or the product or service. It doesn't really fit. It's not going to work, etc. So, maybe we can win the market based on trust. So, all 3 of those, okay? Every business lives in that triangle between those 3, right? And so, not everyone has thought about it that particular way. Do your advertisements, are they all about some imagey kind of thing and everyone else is advertising on price? Is your entire marketing strategy based on referrals? Or is it based on looking for new zip codes to sell your stuff to? You know, having a booth in trade show or whatever it is, right? So, every business is in there somewhere. No one is 100% in one of those 3 corners— price, expertise, or trust. But it boils down to, do you want to be cheap? Do you want to be known as being cheap, smart, or trusted? So, which of those are there? So, that's kind of like helps reframe. But the framework that really can make a significant difference and it is so simple. It's something we call the trust curve. And that is sort of the cornerstone of some of the modern thinking in marketing in terms of being more effective and certainly being more efficient with your dollars.

Before we get into that though, I just want to, right now, we have an environment that is focused on certain ways of doing things. And granted, we still have lots of baby boomers in leadership roles who are still doing the things they've always done because they've always done it this way. But are there any myths about marketing that you think need to be busted? A little question again. I'm a master of little questions.

I think that's a bigger question, Marc. Thank you. So, I'll give you this. I think that the biggest problem that many marketers find is that they find themselves backed into what I call campaign thinking. We're going to have a campaign to do this, to drive this many leads. We're going to do a campaign to do this or that. And I think one of the things we've learned certainly over the last 5 years is you've got to think also in terms of your marketing stack, if you will. What are the elements of those, of the marketing that as you start to layer them on, and some of them are marketing initiatives, some of them might be technology-based, some of them are process-based, some of them are data-based, etc. As you start to layer these things, your marketing stack can be a multiplier for any campaigns you choose to to actually execute. However, if you don't, they become your strategic differentiator because it's the machine that takes you from point A to point B. Okay, it's a constantly changing machine, granted. At one point, there was no social media. So, guess what? That's another layer in the stack, social media, right? At one point, we had no mobile. Well, that's another layer in it. At some point, we didn't have things like marketing automation, or CRM, customer relationship management, or any of these other kinds of enterprise technologies that were available for smaller businesses that now are perfectly able. So, getting away from this campaign thinking is something that— and it's very hard because you've got an agency that you've been pumping money into or some sort of consultant you've been pumping money in where there's a beginning and an end of a campaign. You can see the ROI. It's not just that. It's what's in the marketing stack that you're building, which has got enduring value and which becomes a multiplier for whatever you spend in a campaign.

It is so interesting because as you were saying all that, I was thinking about a conversation I had with a business owner about how customer interaction now is more relational than it is transactional. And essentially, you've just said the same thing about marketing initiatives.

Well, how about that? How about that? Let me take it one step further though, Marc. Let me take it one more step further. If we think about what's called the customer journey or the prospect journey, at the very beginning, they don't know who you are. And every time there's a touchpoint, something happens. And here's that something. Either trust goes up or trust goes down. And so, the question of what are you doing at each one of these touch points where you can influence whether the trust goes up or down is equally important, right? And well, it's critically important in my view.

So, it's so funny that you mentioned that because I do have a keynote called Engagealytics, which is uncovering the mysteries of your customer engagement journey, where I believe that people come through us and they go on this milestone. of different needs, different questions at these milestones to really go towards this idea of how do they become a brand ambassador later on without topping over into the pit of the tainted. Yeah.

And so, you and I should do a tag team at some point, Marc, because of course, I'm talking about it from a marketing strategy perspective, not a customer experience perspective. But guess what? It's the same side of the coin. It's the same coin, just different sides.

So, yep, absolutely it is. And it all becomes almost a cultural implication as well in an organization. It's really interesting how there's all these different crossovers now.

Yeah, I totally agree. I totally agree.

Yeah, one of the challenges I've always had with clients is quantifying marketing initiatives. never truly knows if marketing is making any difference. Like, how does a good marketing initiative really kind of reflect ROI? Like, what are some of the—

So, I'm going to take exception to what you said, of course. Because you said, how can marketing get the ROI? I think, let's be very clear. Bad marketing Badly set up marketing, you'll never be able to figure out the ROI. Good marketing, you can.

Okay.

So, the problem is that so often, people set up marketing in a way that you can't act. Like think about it. If you can't see the results, how in the world can you possibly improve it? How do you know when you should stop doing it? You try something and it doesn't work. And you don't know whether it's not working or it is working. I think that you'll see sometimes there's a question about, gee, for a particular marketing initiative, is it actually doing what it's supposed to do? And that begs the question, which is heavy lifting for a lot of businesses. Well, how do I know what it's supposed to do? Where does it fit within the spectrum, this journey if you want to call it that?

Yeah.

And so, if you've not done that heavy lifting, Then, it becomes very hard to say it's doing its job or it's not doing its job. So, with your permission, let me take a step back.

Okay.

And I do want to talk about the trust curve, which is the model really that I think is the linchpin to answering the question you asked. Is that all right?

That sounds great. Can we do it right after this?

When the spotlight shines on your business, are customers applauding or yawning? In other words, how is your business performing? Make your business A star with a new book, Lights! Camera! Action!, Business Operational Excellence Through the Lens of Live Theater by Marc Haine. Marc uses his business and acting experience to help you see your business like a live show so you can create a performance your customers will never forget. Buy Lights!

Camera!

Action! today at your favorite online retailer or directly at marchaine.com.

Welcome back. I am speaking with the host of the podcast, So, here's your challenge. Randall Craig. Randall, before we get into The Trust Curve, could you just let everybody know a little bit about your podcast?

Very simple. So, here's your challenge. You can get it at Apple Podcasts or wherever you like. And it's all about one topic, 5 minutes, and an action item. Most business owners, it's not that they don't know the answers. They don't know the questions. So, in my podcast, I share one concept Expand it a little bit and then say, hey, here's how to— here's your challenge. And the challenge is how to implement. I give a couple ideas and that's it. That's it. Once a week. That's it.

And the library is huge. So, check it out. The link is in the show notes. So, trust curve. You were talking about trust curve. You want to tease us about the trust curve.

Oh, I'll do more than tease you. I will do more. Remember the 4P framework? Descriptive, not directional.

Yes.

So, the idea with the trust curve is that over time, you build trust with your prospects. You build trust with your customers. You build trust with your employees. But let's just talk about prospects because we're talking about marketing today. So, at the very beginning, they don't know who the heck you are. Okay? How do you solve that? Awareness. That's the first stage. Second is, well, they prefer you over anybody else. That's preference. Third is they're not so sure about it. So, they want to test drive. That's And finally, the last is commitment. They're signing the contract. They're making the purchase. They're engaging whatever it is. The trust curve says that as people go build their trust and go through the 4 stages of awareness, preference, trial, commitment, then they're going to be a customer. So, here's the basic, basic idea. A marketing strategy is no more complex than this. What are the specific initiatives that will drive awareness? What are the specific initiatives that make people prefer you? What are the specific ones that will induce trial? And what are the specific ones that'll cause them to sign the contract or buy the product or service? Okay, that's it. So, if you've got a list underneath awareness, preference, trial, commitment of of those things, you're good. You're golden. And so typically, marketing problems are things like this. People say, I don't have enough people walking into my business, or the phone's not ringing. Well, guess what? That's likely an awareness problem, maybe a preference problem. Okay? If you think about, Marc, last time I was on your show, we talked about your car buying experience.

Right.

And if I remember correctly, it was 2013 that you bought a Honda Accord. How's that for memory?

Wow! You are brilliant.

Well, I don't know about that. I take good notes. So Marc, think about it. What was it that caused you? What happened to the old car? Did it just break?

Yeah, the old car needed to be replaced and I had to shop for something.

Okay, that's awareness. Okay, you need a new car. Now, why didn't you get like the Ferrari or the Lamborghini? Okay, what drove you to Prefer Honda?

Well, I needed— originally, I was going to shop for a used car. And when I looked at brands, I realized that Honda depreciated a lot slower.

And so, think about this, okay? And I'm talking to all of our viewers right now. What was it that caused Marc to come to that solution? Okay, it was advertising. It was his friends saying, well, you know, it depreciates less. Maybe he read Consumer Reports. Maybe he spoke to his neighbor in the driveway. Maybe he went into the dealership and had a conversation. But those are all examples of particular types of marketing initiatives. Same thing with you when you think about, gee, on one hand, Marc's aware that he needs a new car. But how does Honda make sure that Marc is aware of Honda. Well, once again, maybe it's advertising. Maybe they've got a blog. Okay? Or maybe they're on Instagram. Or maybe they're in a mall where he walks by as opposed to a regular dealership where he might not walk by. There's a whole bunch. Maybe his neighbor's got one. Okay? And he saw it and thought, this is what looks nice. Those are the particular kinds of awareness initiatives. Same thing with when you decided that I think I like the Honda Accord. You went into the dealership with your big, big wad of cash, Marc. And what did you say? I'll take it. No, right?

It wasn't that easy. No.

No, no. What typically happens, you go to a car dealership, right? And they say, well, would you like Mr. Haine to do a test drive? Right? That's trial, right? And so, what are the other ways in your business that you can actually get trial to happen? Sometimes, it's a freebie. Okay, test it out. If you go to a mall, you're walking by one of those fast food restaurants. Maybe, you have some food you've never tried. They're out in front with a little piece of a chicken saying, hey, try this. See if you like it. Right? The idea of trying a chocolate before you buy the box is the essence of actually trial. And commitment. What are the specific things that you can do to improve commitment? Well, maybe Honda might be able to offer easier financing or a better rate. Of course, they could diddle around with the price and everything. But every business has got things under awareness, preference, trial, commitment. And as trust increases, remember every interaction on that customer journey, trust goes up or trust goes down. It goes up or down along the trust curve. But it's your marketing initiatives along the way that actually can make a difference.

It really is blurring the line between marketing and operations. You know, when I started, when I came to Alberta back in 1999, I came in from being an entrepreneur coming into a corporate structure where I had an HR manager. I had a marketing manager and I was the director of food and beverage. And marketing was its own little silo. Excuse me. Marketing was its own little silo and they created their marketing campaigns and they did stuff based on their strategy. But now, based on the description you've created with this trust curve, this becomes more of an all hands on deck kind of initiative.

Well, that's actually very true. Okay, that's very, very true. And that speaks to the fact that anytime anybody, whether it's an accounts payable receivables clerk, or the receptionist, or some frontline person that you think is not a critical part of the marketing, that person absolutely is. Absolutely is. Not just in terms of their direct interactions but with social media. Everybody is effectively a corporate spokesperson, right? So, So, that's part of it as well. I will say though, when you talk about trust curve operationally as well, here's something that anytime somebody's going to make a decision, the trust curve actually applies. Think about it. You mentioned HR.

Yes.

Okay, so the HR manager is thinking, I've got to recruit a new director of, I don't know, purchasing or something. Or I've got to recruit a new salesperson. I got to recruit whoever it happens to be. Think about this in the trust curve context. Awareness. I need to hire somebody. Okay, I'm going to put an ad out. That's part of the initiative. Maybe I'm going to do a career fair so people understand who we are. Maybe I'll ask my friends so that people are aware that we're hiring. Okay, preferences. Okay, I've got all these resumes, a long list. Okay, who do I prefer? Trial is the interview process and commitment is the offer letter. Right? And from a job seeker's perspective, it's the very same, isn't it? I'm looking for a job. I'm on the— I'm applying. I prefer to work at this company. Gee, I've got interviews. Gee, I'm going to get an offer. I'm going to sign it. Right? So absolutely, you could use the concept throughout. In our particular case, talking about trust curve and marketing though, the more interesting thing is to say, okay, so what role do things like content play? Because sometimes content, people are blogging. They're posting on social media. They're doing all kinds of other content videos. Look, even this podcast is content, right? So, every piece of content that the organization creates, where does that fit on the trust curve? Is the content top of funnel, which is really more awareness preference? Or is it bottom of funnel closer to trial commitment? Or somewhere in the middle, right? How do we use some of the technology? Like, where does marketing automation fit in? Probably not awareness. Okay, but probably closer to preference, trial, commitment. Where does the CRM fit in? Well, CRM doesn't fit in at the very beginning, does it?

No.

Right? Because you don't know who they are. But it sure does when you go between trial and commitment when somebody is about ready to commit. So, there's a whole bunch of overlay that's possible onto the model that is not really possible with models like the 4 Ps or the best 1960s thinking. And so, when it comes to how does a business owner, an entrepreneur grow their business, okay, you don't need a 50-page marketing plan. You don't need to do anything other than to say, okay, how do we determine what goes under each element of the trust curve? You need some help for that. Well, guess what? People like me are around. Okay. But if you didn't know the trust curve in the first place, you probably might not have been thinking in this paradigm. That's really the point.

Yeah, brilliant. To your point, sometimes people need help shaking their perspectives. How can they get in touch with you if they want to explore this deeper with you?

Well, first of all, I'm a big fan of self-serve. So, if you go to randallcraig.net, I've got a white paper that explores this in great detail. randallcraig.net/trust in great detail. If you want to get a hold of me, go to randallcraig.com. That's my website. All the contact information is there. But do the reading first. And the reason why is that'll help you explore this particular topic in greater detail. That way, if we have a conversation, it could be a higher-order conversation.

Sounds great! Could we talk a little bit about how to apply the trust curve to existing problems? Say for instance, you're not getting the sales that you need. How can we look at the trust curve to be able to use it as a forensic tool to help us problem solve?

So actually, Marc, that's a very good question because every business I've advised, They already have a marketing plan.

Right.

They already have a business development process. They've already— it's all in place. So, what I would say is this. Step number 1 is really to put what you're doing right now on the trust curve under awareness, preference, trial, and commitment. And then, the forensic part is, gee, are each one of these things doing its job? Because sometimes what worked 2 years ago, say, or before the pandemic, or during COVID is not working today. Number 2 is to recognize that maybe you've got lots and lots and lots of stuff.

Okay.

In one part of the trust curve but not enough or not the right things in another. So, where's the bottleneck? Like, where are things not getting through? Because if If you get lots of leads, lots of people at awareness but nobody's going through to preference, guess where you need to focus your time and money? If it turns out that you're getting everybody to that, well, think about the car dealership, the test drive. But for whatever reason, you can't close them at the very end. Your focus has got to be on trial and commitment, right? So forensically, it's a powerful, powerful tool.

Okay.

The challenge is sometimes when you're in the box, you can't sort of see You know, physician heal thyself, right?

You cannot see the label from inside the bottle.

Yep, yep, that's right, that's right. And I could make some terrible pun about, uh, you know, when, when sales aren't where they need to be, it'll drive you to drink, and therefore the label is even more important. But, you know, I, I, I won't go there. I won't go there. So, so that, that's the So, that's kind of how I would start it. It's really not rocket science. You just need to have a deeper understanding of the trust curve, which you can get on randallcraig.net/trust. Okay, just read through that. Well, that'll get you started. And then, when you realize there's some problems, you realize that, hey, maybe you should dive deeper into this thinking, then you could do that from there.

I can absolutely see that by dissecting, going through the trust curve and understanding the components of the trust curve that you also end up putting blinders on so that you're not suffering from squirrel syndrome or shiny object syndrome where somebody comes in with a solution and you think, oh my God, if I could only get that. Now, using the trust curve, you're able to—

Well, to tell you the truth, most entrepreneurs that I know, they're sharp people. And they do have their tentacles out. And people do say, hey, this has really worked very well. And the reason why they're successful is because they've been able to pivot. So, the trust curve, contrary to what people may think, it's not a straitjacket. So, somebody says, here's this shiny object. Somebody says, I've had great success with this. Some vendor says, here's something that you should do. Don't throw it out. But rather, you only have so much time. You only have so many dollars. So, you've got the things listed under awareness, preference, trial, commitment. You say, if I do this, the shiny object, let's make sure it makes sense.

Sure.

But what am I going to scratch off? What am I going to stop doing that is under my trust curve? Okay, somebody's got this amazing thing to do. I don't know whatever it is. to generate trials. Okay, you could say, okay, what am I going to scratch off here? I only have so much dollars, so much time. Okay, and when you scratch it off, try it out. See if it works. Right? But most of the time—

Yeah, to your point, if you're looking at your trust curve and you're thinking, we're really suffering in the trials realm, then you can then start shopping specifically for the solutions that apply to that. You're not looking at a CRM that's talking about how you attract prospects at that stage.

That's absolutely right. And it also becomes an early filter for you. Somebody comes up to you, you're trying to generate awareness and then their thing is more about the commitment stage. You could say, sorry, not in my plan. I made a note. Okay, it's not in our plan for this year. We'll look at it next year, the year after. Yeah, right. Save you a lot of time just because all of a sudden, We're talking about strategy, right? And by the way, we spoke at the very beginning of the podcast about how every organization competes: price, expertise, trust.

Right.

The trust curve is the mechanism that explodes out and say, okay, how do we land the strategy airplane? Right? We don't need the 50-page marketing plan. We just need to be very thoughtful with respect to what's under each of those 4. Okay, that's all it is.

I love it. I'd love to talk about some cautionaries because I can imagine people's imaginations are just going wild right now. I'd like to talk a little bit about some do's and don'ts. And we'll get to that right after this.

When you're delivering an important speech to a huge audience, it's easy to lose your place or go way over time. Give yourself an advantage with the Pro Speaker Presentation Speech Timer app. No more checking your watch or calling for time. The Pro Speaker Presentation Speech Timer app keeps you on track with easy-to-see timers, even changing color for visual prompts during your speech. And you can set audio cues to practice or set it to vibrate so you don't even have to look. Be the pro you know you are. Download the app at speakerpresentationtimer.com.

Welcome back. I am speaking with the CEO Whisperer himself. Randall Craig. As you could tell, Randall and I are passionate about helping businesses like yours. If you hear something that you like, if you belong to an association planning a conference, a leadership retreat, or you think we could be of service in any kind of context for you, feel free to reach out. I think that we can be really great service to you. Our contact information is in the show notes. So, don't be afraid to reach out. Randall, do's and don'ts when we're thinking about this idea of implementing or looking at our strategies right now and tying it against the trust curve. Any do's or don'ts that you think we need to flag?

Well, the do's are very simple. Just get off your pot and do it. Okay. But listen, it's actually a very good question. Let's not make things too complex here. It really is not It's not rocket science, okay? You've got the framework. You could download my more detailed paper on it. That's not a problem. And just start working on it. Take what you're doing right now and throw it on there. See how that works. And that's it. That's really it. That's a do or don't all in one shot.

Is this one of those exercises you think that should be implemented within a team? Is this something that marketing director would do? How much input does it require within an organization to get something that's cohesive and strategic in execution or for execution?

Well, Marc, you said something very astute earlier on in our conversation. That marketing isn't just the job of the marketing department or the agency, right? There's a lot of hands that go in it. There's more spent on marketing technology today than almost anything else. Okay, just as an example. So, it really depends on the scale of the organization and just how much alignment actually that you're looking to get across everybody. So, I've done this with 30 people in the room, facilitated a session for a global company in the publishing world. Okay. Well, guess what? That was great. But if your whole company is just 30 people or 3 people, that's ridiculous. Now, the best is when you've got sure the person responsible for marketing. Be helpful if the leader was there as well. If there's a few other people as well, just because there's arms and legs that— and there's aspects that come. The question of whether you should do it yourself or you should involve other people. Listen, as a facilitator, I kind of got a bit of a conflict of interest here because I would say, it's always better if you've got a facilitator who can also add value to what other best practices. But if that's not in the cards for you, if that's not in the cards for you, it's better that you at least take a piece of paper or whiteboard and say, Let's just see what this looks like. And you know, Marc, if I can make an offer, if somebody wants to just have a short conversation on this topic before they do it themselves or thinking about asking somebody else, they could just reach out to me directly at randallcraig.net/30. And I'd be happy to have a conversation about it. I love this stuff. I find it fascinating how different companies can implement it. And I'd love to have the conversation. So, that's the other part of it, I guess.

Yeah, wonderful! As we wrap up, do you have any last comments, last thoughts about what we've been talking about today?

Well, maybe this. Once again, it seems today the conversation is all about it's not rocket science. But listen, if you want different and better results, you're going to have different and better inputs. Right? If you want to put stuff on a shelf, okay, call it a marketing framework. Let's not use some of the thinking of 20 or 50 years ago. Perhaps you can do a little bit better today. And that's probably the closing thoughts. Take the opportunity, learn about the trust curve, and then actually get going using it.

Love it! Could you remind people one more time how to get in touch with you?

Sure. Go to my website randallcraig.com. You could reach me there. Or if you wanted to to talk to me, randallcraig.net/30.

Love it! Randall, this has been an absolute blast. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge today.

My pleasure.

Why don't you let me know if this was of value to you? As always, my offer stands. If you would like 30 minutes of my time to brainstorm your business with you and your team, feel free to book yourself on my online calendar. The link is down below in The show notes. It would be my absolute honor for me to be of service. And if you haven't done so yet, why don't you go ahead and subscribe to the show? This will give you first dibs whenever I bring you new content with new experts just like Randall to help you put on the show your customers and employees deserve. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and I hope and dare you to be the exception.