How to Become a Better Manager Through Servant Leadership

How are you doing? I mean, as a leader, how are you doing? How do you fare? And really, how do you know? That's coming up today on Marc Haine Live. Welcome to this episode of Marc Haine Live. This is where small business owners and entrepreneurs pick up core skill sets to help them work on their business, not just in their business. I am your host, Service Expert and Master of Experiences Marc Haine. And today, my special guest is Michael Tanner. We will be talking about how to evaluate your leadership effectiveness within your business. But before we get into that, I just wanted to remind you to go ahead and subscribe to this podcast. And please remember to ring the bell. That'll give you first dibs whenever I bring you fresh content. It'll give you the notification. And while you're at it, feel free to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, and of course, on Instagram. And if you want to engage with today's content, go ahead and use the hashtag #ExperienceLeadership. I was speaking with a colleague yesterday about how people find this channel. My argument was that I don't think anyone will ever search for, how can I become a better leader? Or, how can I stop sucking at being a leader? Now, I could be wrong. But many leaders I come across are so focused on what they need to be doing that until they know they have a weakness, really nothing gets addressed. For most of us, we cannot see the label from within the bottle. And we need some way of being able to look at our leadership from the outside in. Which brings me to our Question of the Day. So, in all seriousness, as a leader, how are you doing? What mechanism do you have in place to measure your effectiveness? Could you even really define the word leadership. Go ahead and share your experience on social media. And again, please make sure you use the hashtag #ExperienceLeadership because I'd love for you to be part of this conversation. My guest for this very special episode is leadership veteran Michael Tanner. Michael is a trusted advisor and a leadership coach equipping leaders to positively impact lives, not just their business results, but the people that they're leading. Michael, welcome to the show. It's so great to have you.

Marc, thanks so much for having me. It's a real honor to be on your show and to serve your audience any way I can.

This is fantastic. We were talking a little bit offline and we started laughing right away. And it's like, oh, this is going to be such an excellent episode.

Yes, I certainly hope so. I hope the audience enjoys all of our fun and our laughter. But I hope they learn something about leadership as well.

Fantastic! So, maybe you could start off by telling us a little bit about what you do for your clients.

Yeah, sure. So, we do 3 things basically at the Credible Leadership Group. We help you define leadership, measure leadership, and improve leadership. And so, we do that through a number of various ways. We have freebies like I have my own podcast as well. We do individual coaching. We do group workshops, 2- and 3-day workshops. We even partner with HR departments or maybe CEOs to really become the leadership development arm of the business. And they will bring leaders throughout their organization to us to be trained up as leaders. And those are longer-term engagements, a year or so. But they're very focused and very dedicated to that business, that team, and growing the leaders inside of that team. So, we do that through a number of different ways. But it all evolves around defining leadership, measuring leadership, and improving leadership.

Wonderful! And it's so important. You and I were talking offline before we went live talking about the need for training and how unfortunately, people get promoted into roles and they don't get trained. People just have an expectation that they were good employees. So, go ahead and just do your magic as a leader. And then, they wonder why they wallow. In despair and ineffectiveness afterwards.

Yeah. And I was sharing with you, and it sounds like hyperbole, but it really isn't. I believe roughly on a daily basis, I encounter that situation in my business among my clients is where you have that rockstar individual. The proverbial example to use is the salesman, right? Rockstar salesman. He could sell anything. He's always at the top of the list every single month in sales. He gets promoted to sales manager, and now the business just assumes that he's going to equally perform as a sales manager. But what starts to happen is that sales team starts to fall apart because while that individual is a great salesman, they're not necessarily a great leader, uh, and the team as a whole just starts to fall apart.

Yeah, it starts to suffer. You mentioned just before we get too deep into this, you mentioned that you have a podcast. Could you let everybody know what the title is, who you serve on your podcast, and where they can find it?

Yeah, thanks so much for that, Marc. Yeah, you can find me at the Rookie Leaders Podcast. The primary audience for my podcast is that individual that's new to leadership. Maybe they've just recently been promoted. to some type of manager or supervisor position. They have a small team. But they're new to the idea of leadership. But I'll also say that I have a fair amount of my audience that has been in leadership for some amount of time. But for whatever reason, they feel like they've plateaued at their current position. Maybe their team hasn't grown in a long time or they haven't received additional responsibilities or anything like that. And so, I think they came looking for leadership content and found my podcast. But yeah, you can find it anywhere you find podcasts, The Rookie Leaders Podcast. You'll find me there.

Rookie Leaders. Perfect! That's so great. And of course, your podcast is serving the same audience that is watching this today. So, it's really important. And it's so interesting because really, the leadership with humility are the ones who are always looking to get better and look for resources to get better. So, but I think to get us really started into our topic today, I think we need to start by defining what leadership is. So to you, what is leadership?

Yeah. So, we build everything that we teach at the Credible Leadership Group. We teach everything around our definition of leadership. And I just felt it was really, really important to create a real concise, meaningful definition of leadership. Because maybe, like me, you encounter this when you ask a group of people, well, what does leadership mean to you? You get answers all over the map. And all of the answers are going to be vague or ambiguous in some way. My favorite is probably the answer of, well, I don't exactly know, but I know it when I see it. Right? And so, we just felt the need to clearly define Leadership. And it's what we use in all of our leadership training. And here's the definition: influencing others towards a shared goal. That is our definition of leadership— influencing others towards a shared goal. I'll break that down really quickly for you because there's a lot of meaning in that definition, if you will.

Sure.

But first of all, there's got to be others, right? You're not in leadership if other people aren't following you, right? So, So, influencing others toward a shared goal. There have to be others. But we start that definition, or I'm sorry, let's go to the end as well. There has to be a goal. There has to be others involved and there has to be a goal involved also. We're not just wandering aimlessly through the wilderness here, right? We're not just trying to survive the workday. We have a purpose. We have an intention and we're trying to be successful in something. And so, that is our goal.

Yeah.

And then, we start the definition with the word influencing. And we use that word because leadership carries with it this idea of a willingness to follow. Right? You're not a leader if people follow you just because you have a title or just because you have a position or some type of authority. Right? People don't willingly follow you out of fear. Right? They don't willingly follow you when they're afraid, well, you could fire them or you could reprimand them in some way. But what we want is we want leadership where those on your team are willing to follow you. So that's the reason we use the word influence there. And then lastly, a shared goal. The word shared in our definition, it really has 2 parts to it. First of all, it means communicated, right? A goal that hasn't been communicated is useless, right? You have to be, as a leader, an effective communicator. You gotta Share that goal multiple times. You've got to talk about it different ways. It's got to be properly communicated. But the second and probably the most important part of that word shared in our definition is this idea of togetherness, right? It's a shared goal, meaning we are in this together, right? I'm not the leader just giving you a goal and sending you on your way and saying, best of luck. I hope it works out. Or I'm not sitting in my office, if you will, barking orders or commands at you. No, I'm in there with you. I'm getting my hands dirty with you. I'm in the trenches with you. We are in this together. We're sharing in this goal. And so, that's our definition, influencing others toward a shared goal. And again, that's what we build all of our training around.

It makes me wonder where the heck were you in 1976 when I was entering the workforce. And everybody seemed to rule from the roost with a carrot and a stick. Why is this definition important today? Like, why is this such a big focus for you?

Yeah, I think it's so important because a lot of what you just said around the carrot and the stick, or command and control type of leadership. And I'll just say where I first learned leadership in my first leadership Professional leadership position, meaning I got paid to lead people, was in 1993 in the United States Marine Corps. And so, when people hear that I'm teaching leadership from a military background, they expect me to be talking about rank structure, command and control, and authority. And I said it, therefore, you do it. And that is not at all the leadership that I learned in the Marine Corps, and that's not the leadership that I learned in the corporate world as well. I don't deny the fact that rank structure is important in the military, but I would submit to you that the best leaders I've ever worked with, either in the military or in the corporate world, were servant leaders that even though I didn't have that definition of leadership and they didn't have that definition, definition of leadership, they were certainly abiding by that definition of leadership. They were the type of leader that I would say of them, I would follow him anywhere. Right? I would willingly, I would follow him anywhere. They were the type of leader that I knew they were standing shoulder to shoulder with me to accomplish whatever it was we were trying to accomplish. And so, it was just that leadership that I experienced. And then was later able to articulate and define and so forth. But I think it's important because it combats exactly what you're talking about. Those myths, those misconceptions about what leadership is. It's not a title. It's not a position. It's not command and control. It's not the stick and the carrot. It's more of a servant leadership type role.

I love it. Everything that you're talking about today just really resonates with me on so many different levels because I've had situations where bosses consider themselves bosses. I am— you are my employee and I am the boss. And then, other people turn around and say, I work with you. We work together. We are part of a team. Our roles are different but we are all part of a team. And so, yours is more the latter than it is the former, which I think is fantastic.

Absolutely. And I think it's the most effective form of leadership because you're going to get the most out of the people that you're leading when you lead that way. When you lead with your title, when you lead because I'm the boss, then people are going to be doing what you ask them to do out of fear, right? They're doing it because they fear the boss could fire them or something like that. When people are doing what you ask them to do out of fear, At best, you're getting a half-hearted effort from them.

Sure.

You're at best getting half of their effort. But when you lead from a servant leader mindset and you're in it with them, we're shared in this goal and so forth. And they would say of you, I would follow that person anywhere. They're willingly following you at that point. You're getting full effort always, all the time. This is This is the type of leadership that gets the heroics, right? The above and beyond, the weekend work, and so forth. And I'm not saying that we want to lead this way so that we can manipulate and get the weekend work and the above and beyond. But that's when you get the full effort from your team members is when you're leading from that servant leadership spirit rather than leading with your title as the boss.

It really is the difference between managing people's hands Do this, do this, do this, and engaging their heart and their soul and their minds.

Yeah, totally. I totally agree with that. I don't like to get all semantic with my words and all that, but I'm not a big fan of the idea of the word manager. I prefer the word leader. And the way I look at it, you take a noun. A noun is a person, place, and thing. Well, everything within a noun except for the person, you can manage, right? You can manage your time. You can manage a conference room. You can manage an event. You can manage. But the person, the person aspect of a noun, in my opinion, you should lead them, not manage them. You should lead them. And again, that's a willingness to follow type leadership is what you're looking for with people. Everything else you can manage, but you want to lead people. I love it.

Yeah, you manage things but you lead people. That's exactly right. In your experience now, what especially now we're in an unprecedented time. We're in a time of COVID-19. People, depending where people are at, restrictions are being lifted. But there's still lots of restrictions being faced in different quadrants that have really tested the capacity and the ability of the leaders. What do you think has been the biggest handicaps that leaders have had to face during this huge transition?

Yeah. I think one of the things that leaders have had to do that maybe we're not really accustomed to is we've had to get really, really creative with our intentionality around leadership. I was a big fan. I was always a big fan of just kind of leadership by walking around. I just walk around through cubicle land office areas and And just stop in and have good conversations with our team members and so forth. I'm a big— I believe leadership is really about relationship. And so, I'm all about building as good a relationship as I possibly can with all of my team members. And when you're in the office together and all that, it's simple, right? Even easy in that we can just kind of walk around together. And chitchat with one another. But now that we're at home and we're having to connect via Zoom or Teams or something like that, then I think we as leaders, we've had to be a lot more creative around how do we maintain and even build stronger relationships with those that we're leading. And we're having to do that in a disconnected world. And so, we're having to be really, really creative in how we do that. We still have to be equally intentional about doing it. But now, we just have to be a lot more creative about it.

Yeah, and I would even argue that we need to be even more intentional now because if we're leaving people in office and people who are leading from remote, how do you give the people— how do you not do it so you're punishing one over the other even inadvertently? I'd really like to talk about your leadership equation. That you have that you put into on your website. And we'll get to that right after this. Sure.

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I am speaking with leadership coach Michael Tanner and we're talking about this ever-elusive idea of effective leadership. Michael, we're seeing reports of the high cases now of burnout, increased mental health issues, and of course, the Great Resignation that's happening. In your opinion, are leaders on the wrong track?

Well, I think an argument can be made for that. I mean, you said it earlier. We're in unprecedented times, right? So, in addition to the pressures and stresses that just general life is bringing on our team members, The fact that we're working differently, that we're not as connected as we used to be to our team members and to our leaders and all of those things are making for even more stress and more pressure on our team members. But I think the old adage still holds true that people don't leave businesses. They leave bad leaders. They leave the people or the bad boss or something like that. And I believe that's still the case even though we're in unprecedented times and we have all of these additional factors into someone leaving. I believe still it comes down to, do leaders have the appropriate relationship with their team members? Because when they do, I think team members find it much more difficult to resign and leave the team when that's the case. So, I do believe that even though we're in these unprecedented times, people are still leaving bad leaders, they're not leaving the company that they work for.

Right, right. And it's the culture, right, that's created by the leaders as well.

Exactly.

When people measure their effectiveness, I've talked to lots of leaders and they go, oh, our sales were up 15%. And yeah, our turnover is a little bit low or a little bit high. And yeah, we're always struggling to fulfill some empty spots. But you know what? We're right on target on our budget. What's wrong with the way that people are measuring their leadership effectiveness?

Yeah, such a great question, Marc. And I encounter this all the time. I think I shared with you before we hit the record button, I go in with the question, well, how do you define leadership? And I get kind of a deer in the headlights. I get these vague answers. But then I follow that up with, well then, how do you measure leadership effectiveness? In my opinion, the answers are even worse than the definition question. It's either no answer at all. I don't even know. I don't exactly know how to measure our leadership. Or it's metrics that I believe are the wrong metrics to be using. It's metrics like attrition. Well, if our attrition is high, then we know that we have leadership issues. They will utilize met goals, right? Like you were just saying, if we're on budget or if our sales goals are being achieved and so forth. The struggle or the issue that I have with those types of metrics is that those are lagging metrics. Those are the equivalent of the scoreboard at the end of the game. And the problem with the scoreboard at the end of the game is it's the end of the game and you can't change the scoreboard anymore. So, if you failed, if you lost, the game's over. It's too late. And so, for instance, to look at attrition as a metric for leadership effectiveness, in my opinion, it's too late. You've already lost your best team members. They've resigned. They've left. We just talked about the Great Resignation. They've resigned. They've left. Game over, right? It's too late to now look at attrition and say, oh, well, we better fix leadership. Same with a goal, right? Accomplishing goals. So, you have a sales goal at the end of the year. Well, December 31st, if you look at your sales goal and you didn't meet it, guess what? Game over. End of the year. It's too late now to think about, well, how could we do leadership differently so that we could meet our revenue goal? And our intention at Credible Leadership Group is to give leaders a method, an objective method to measure their leadership effectiveness in real time so that they can then take the action necessary to improve it.

Fantastic. So, what are some of those aspects on how you go about to effectively measure leadership?

Yeah. So, we utilize what we call the leadership equation. And I'm not going to get all nerdy on the math and so forth, but I will share with you the 4 variables that are in the equation. And again, much like the definition, all of our leadership development teachings are around these 4 elements of leadership, these 4 variables in the equation. And those variables are credibility, competence, motive, and relationship. So, I'll explain those quickly for you and kind of how they align in the equation. But it starts first of all with credibility. Credibility is kind of your track record or your history of success, right? So, if you're an effective leader, then your people can look at you and they have some level of believability in your capability to lead us, right? So, you've got some kind of track record, some kind of history of success of some sort, right? That credibility is then added to competence. Now, competence is, that is your knowledge or your ability to succeed.

Right?

Not just your history now, but now your knowledge and your skill set for success. And competence really in this has 2 aspects. First of all, it's the subject matter in which you're leading. Right? So, if you are a sales manager, well then, you need to be pretty competent in sales, of course. But the second element of competence is general leadership competence, right? Your knowledge and your skill around leading people. So, you have credibility. That's added to competence. And then both of those are divided by motive. And motive for us answers that all-important question of why do you want to be a leader, right? And what it comes down to is your people are constantly Trying to assess, are your motives selfish or selfless? When you make a decision, your team members are asking themselves, why did he make that decision? Did he make that decision to bolster himself? Did he make that decision so that he could look good or take credit in front of someone? Or maybe you ask someone to do a task that no one likes to do and they're, well, why did he ask me to do that? Your motives are always being questioned by your team members. And it's a divisor in this equation because it can greatly impact, negatively impact your leadership effectiveness if your team members perceive your motives to be selfish. But now finally, all of that is multiplied by relationship. The level of relationship that you have with your team members As people, not as team members, right? When I talk about relationship, it's not how much do you know what they're doing for the team or what their deliverables are or how they're performing. When I talk about relationship, it's how well do you know that person as a person? And it's multiplied in the equation because a high level of relationship can positively influence the equation and it can actually overcome shortcomings in any of the other 3 variables. So for instance, if you're— if you ask a person to, to do a task that no one likes to do, their first thought is, well, why is he making me do that? You know, why is he punishing me? What does he have against me? But then the mind quickly goes to, well, you know though, I know Marc really well. He and I have a really good relationship. I know that he's got the best interests of the team at heart. So, I'm going to go and do what he asked me to do. You can see how that relationship just overcame that initial questioning of the motive.

Right.

And so, that's why relationship is multiplied in the equation because it overcomes many of those other variables in the equation. And we utilize, we have what we call the Leadership Calculator. We utilize a survey that you can use That then puts your answers into that leadership equation to give you a score on your leadership effectiveness.

Wow! Wow! That sounds— and it's so much of it is surrounded by trust, isn't it? When you talk about the relationship, I love Stephen Covey's theory on the trust bank account. And there's not a time that I have seen a situation where that doesn't come into effect. Right? If the trust is really high and you let your team down, there's a lot of forgiveness. But if you let them down too often, you become overdrawn. And now, you lack that trust, right? And we see it time and time again in leadership roles all over. This is, Michael, this is fantastic information. Could you let everybody know how they can get in touch with you? And even better, this leadership calculator you were talking about, how can they get access to that?

Yeah, so the best place to find us is at credibleleaders.com. And right on the home page, you'll see the big button at the top where you can utilize And utilize the calculator that I spoke of. It's a free tool. I welcome any leaders to utilize the calculator to assess their perception of their leadership effectiveness. But I want to be careful to say that's your perception of leadership effectiveness. So, we take the next step of then enabling you to send this calculator to your team members that you're leading because that's what's important. Their perception of your leadership is what's important. And so, we give you the capability, again, a free tool here to collect that assessment from your team members and get a good leadership effectiveness score from us, from your team, because they're the ones that really, really matter related to your leadership. So, credibleleaders.com, you'll find it right there.

Love it, love it, love it. And what I'd like to do is I would like to take a quick break. But when we come back, I'd like to talk about, take a deeper dive into some of these variables and how people can control it for themselves as opposed to, oh, it's not my fault. And we'll do that right after this.

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Welcome back! I hope you are getting lots from today's episode. We are uncovering lots of great information about how to evaluate your effectiveness as a leader. And I have to tell you, so far in the 20-something-odd, 32 minutes that we've been going live, I have to tell you, I've had multiple episodes of goosebumps as you were bringing some of these topics forward. They resonate so highly, this idea of being a servant leadership. This idea of leading with— my tagline is to lead with love and kindness first, which means we need a high level of empathy. So, if you're enjoying today's episode, please go ahead and leave a review. And of course, please share the episode on LinkedIn with your circle of people. It would be really great. So Michael, how does each variable of the leadership equation individually improve leadership?

Yeah, so again, Marc, I don't want to get too nerdy in the math. But as I talked about, so for instance, motive. Motive is a divisor in the equation. And we know that in a fraction, that the bigger the number on the bottom is, then the smaller the sum is, right? The total is.

Right.

So what we do is we measure motive as a divisor. And again, as I said earlier, motive is really a measurement of how highly do your team members perceive your motives to be selfish. If they believe that you are in leadership for yourself, then at a really high level, they're questioning your motives. And when that's the case, as I said earlier, when that's the case, when that big number in the denominator is divided into these other variables, Your leadership effectiveness score is going to come way, way down. And so, that's how it plays together there. But as I said, there is that saving grace, if you will. And that's the relationship.

Right.

Building those relationships with your people. And because the relationship is a multiplier in the equation, then focusing on building good strong relationships with your team members That's typically where we start in leadership development because it's a multiplier in the equation. Therefore, it overcomes shortcomings in almost any of those other 3 variables. Well, not almost, all 3 of those other 3 variables. So that's usually where we start is building good relationships with those you lead.

For the people who are tuning into this podcast right now, This idea of motives. What kind of questions do leaders need to ask themselves in order to figure out if their motives are sound, if their motives are generous, if their motives are not self-centered and personal agendas-sized? Yeah, made up a new word.

Yeah, that's a really good question, Marc. And I'll have to say, in my client base, I am always energized by the individual that is transparent enough, as I teach motive, transparent enough to raise their hand. Sometimes even in a group of people, raise their hand and say, I'm not so sure I got into leadership for pure motives. They're transparent enough to say, I just wanted the prestige, or I wanted the title. I thought it would be cool to be vice president of this. Or, I wanted the compensation and so forth. And so, I just, I so appreciate when individuals are willing to be transparent and honest in that way. Because I think the reality is, I know this is— I got into leadership for those very same reasons.

Right.

I thought the title was cool. The compensation had to be great. Found out otherwise. But I thought all of those things as well. And so, those individuals that are asking themselves, well, maybe I did get into leadership just for those selfish reasons. Well, that doesn't mean that you're doomed to selfish leadership. You can do things. You can take actions that one, they will transform your own emotions and feelings about leadership. But they will also change the perception of your team members. Right? So, I'm a big proponent of this idea that action precedes emotions or action precedes feelings. Right? And so, if you want to have the feelings or the emotions of selfless leadership, then you need to first start taking the actions of a selfless leader, of a servant leader. And when you start taking those actions and you start seeing the impact, the positive impact it has on the people that you're leading, When you start seeing the positive impact it has on the success of your team and the performance of your team, well then, the feelings, the emotions of being a servant leader are going to follow that. Likewise, with your team, they may perceive and they may accurately perceive right now that you're in leadership for selfish reasons. But when you start taking selfless actions in leading your team members, Their perception is going to change. And that motive score that's in the denominator, it's going to start going down. And when it starts to go down, your leadership effectiveness score is going up. So, you just got to take the action necessary to change your own heart, your own spirit, if you will, about leadership, but also change the perception of your team members as well.

Yeah. Yeah. And really, that one question of, why am I doing this? And being very honest with yourself is going to take a lot. It takes a lot of humility. And then, that realization of, well, wait a second. There are many people that I get to influence. And you and I talked beforehand when we had our little pre-podcast meeting and talking about this idea of leaving a legacy and people actually turning around years later to say, this was the best time of my career. Because I had a leader who listened. I had a leader who cared. I had a leader who helped me get better.

Yeah, totally. And that's exactly what I'm talking about when I say when you start taking the action of being a selfless servant leader and you start seeing the impact that it has on your team members, the positive impact that it has on your team members, and yes, the success, the performance, all of those things go up as well. But I believe really when you start to see how you as a leader are positively impacting the lives of those you're leading, then it just has this natural ability, if you will, to change your heart, to change your mind, to change your attitude towards leadership when you see how well you're positively impacting your team members.

Yeah. And like you said at the very beginning, this has nothing to do with your title.

That's right.

Because we can be leaders in the office, we can be leaders in every realm of our lives. It doesn't have to be the fact that you are the manager or the VP or whatever.

That is true. So true. And I think we've probably all experienced that team, that group of people that has a leader, but then there's someone else on the team. And that other individual on the team, that's the one that everyone respects. That's the one that everyone honors. That's the one that has the most influence on all the other team members. They don't have the title. But they're certainly serving as a leader to that group when that's the case.

Yeah, that's so magical. For the people who might be the checklist fanatics of going, okay, I want to become a better leader. Step 1, step 2, step 3. What are the cautionaries that we should explore before we sign off today?

Yeah, one of the first things that I want to make sure that everyone understands is that leadership is not a destination. It's not a title. It's not a position or some type of rank or authority. It's not a place that you arrive to. You can't say, well, one day when I have the title of vice president, well then, I've arrived. I am now a leader. You can't view leadership In that manner. You have to view leadership as a journey. And for those that are listening that are the checklist-type folks, well, first of all, I'll say I'm one of those people. Right? I get up every single day and I have a checklist. And nothing soothes my soul more than to put a check in the box next to things as I have accomplished them. But what you have to do as a leader, just be sure that you View leadership as a journey. And you are forever on this journey. Yes, you're checking things off on the box, you know, checking the boxes off as you go. But just don't view that, well, I've checked all the boxes today. Therefore, I'm a leader. I'm done. I'm good. That's just not the way it works. It's a journey, not a destination. So check your boxes. But then come back tomorrow. And let's check some more boxes on this journey to effective leadership.

Fantastic! Michael, as we wrap up, do you have any last thoughts about what we're talking about today?

Yeah, so I just so enjoy seeing people win, right? And I want to encourage other leaders to be of that mindset as well. Do everything that you can to see your people succeed, to see your people win. So, get in the trenches with them. Get your hands dirty with them. Share in the accomplishment of the goal. with your team members. And you'll be a much more effective leader when you have that spirit.

Fantastic! Could you remind everybody one more time how they can get hold of you and how they can get to that calculator?

Yeah, head over to credibleleaders.com. You'll see it right there on the front page, predominantly at the top. You'll see the calculator. And then, if you want to connect with me in a further way, I'm most likely to be on LinkedIn. So, just look me up on LinkedIn. You'll find me there as well.

Terrific! And it is all in the show notes so people can grab ahead and click on it. And I do encourage you to take advantage of the resource that is Michael Tanner. My goodness! So fantastic! Michael, again, thank you so much. I really appreciate you being here and sharing your knowledge, your passion, and of course, your expertise.

Hey, thanks again so much, Marc. It's a real honor to serve you and your audience any way I can.

I love it. Thank you. If you have any questions about today's episode, or you would like a complimentary 30-minute brainstorming session with you and your team, feel free to book yourself on my online calendar. The link is down below. It's the one that's marked meetme.slo/marchaine. As always, I am at your service. And if you haven't done so yet, why don't you go ahead and subscribe to this feed. And follow me on social media. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and you dare to be the exception.