How to Fix Business Bottlenecks Without Burning Out with Camilla Bignell

Does it seem like you're working harder than ever? I mean, your team is busy, the tools are in place, and yet things still feel heavy, slow, and oddly fragile. What if the issue isn't effort, motivation, or discipline, but the fact that your business has a hidden bottleneck that keeps breaking flow before results ever show up? And that's what we're talking about today On Experience Leadership.

Welcome to Experience Leadership, a podcast that challenges small business owners and entrepreneurs just like you to dare to be the exception. Join our host, customer experience expert Marc Haine, as he uncovers relevant and timely content to help you script and direct your business and teams to create jaw-dropping experiences your customers and staff deserve. Here is the host of Experience Leadership, author of Lights! Camera! Action!, customer experience expert Marc Haine.

Welcome to this episode of Experience Leadership. I am your host, customer and employee experience strategist Marc Haine. Today, my guest is the business bottleneck and flow expert Camila Vignell. And today, we are unpacking why pushing harder doesn't necessarily fix what's actually slowing your business down. I will say though, the price of admission for today is to please make sure you subscribe to this podcast. And please make sure that you share it with your circle. I'd love to see the business community really rally around the work I've been doing for the last, oh, 285 episodes. And it's free. So, go figure. There's a quiet moment most leaders have But they really say it out loud. It's the moment you realize you're doing everything right and somehow still ending up at the end of the day tired, behind, and questioning yourself. And that brings us to our Question of the Day. So, where in your business does work keep piling up? Or coming back to you because people aren't sure who's allowed to make the decisions or what they're allowed to make decisions on? Go ahead and share your experience. I'd love it if you would share this episode on your favorite social media platform, #ExperienceLeadership, and put your comments down. I'd love to get you part of this conversation. And if you're tuning in live today, feel free to put your question in the comment box here. And we'll see if Camila can answer your questions live on air. As I mentioned, Camila Bignell has lived what a lot of leaders are dealing with right this second. She has helped grow a business fast, literally from 20 people to over 120 people in just 6 months. And she's also worked inside a family business where roles, decisions, and expectations can get messy really, really quickly. She's known for helping business owners and teams slow things down just enough to figure out what's really getting in the way. Camila is known as the calm in the storm, helping teams stop scrambling, start trusting themselves again, and get work moving forward without burning out in the process. Camila, welcome to the show. It's so great to have you.

Thanks, Marc. It's great to be here.

Let's start off digging a little bit deeper into who your clients are and how do you serve them.

Yeah, typically my clients are service-based business owners. So, that can range anywhere from a graphic designer, web designer, up to a lawyer. And his team, an accountant and their team, bookkeepers, that kind of thing. I help other coaches and consultants as well.

So it's fair to say that if you're working with an optometrist, you can help them see their business clearer.

Yes.

Optometrist.

That's a good one.

Feel free to steal it. So, Camilla, why is it like I've been around the block a lot talking to a lot of business owners and a lot of, you know, and just before we went live, we were talking about how a lot of people are incidental leaders within their business. They've assumed the business, or they bought a business, or they stepped into a business. But they've never really been trained on leadership as a whole or being able to run a business. They're just doing the best that they possibly can. They're solving a problem that the customers have. But then, they're not necessarily well equipped. Why is it often that I see these leaders going from basically one crisis to the next? It's almost like in their mindset, They're thinking, oh my God, I have to work harder. I have to work harder. What are they missing?

The first thing I want to say is that typically the clients I work with have this expertise, right, Marc? And they go from being an employee in corporate or working for someone else. And now they're the founder of their business. They're running the business and they don't know how to be the leader of their business or even the systems that are required to be the— they can be at delivering their expertise.

Mm-hmm.

So that's one area that I see as being a problem. But if we use my dad, for example, I wrote about him in my book, Break the Bottleneck. And my dad worked for corporate for years. And then my mom and dad opened their own logistics warehouse. And my dad jumped into running the warehouse side and managing our staff. And what happened was the side of him that I saw as a human being that was creative and funny And even motivating in some ways, he almost cut that off. And he was just the leader that was my way or the highway. It's my, you know, it has to be my way. I'm the one that knows best. And he didn't even consider what the frontline workers needed or that they might know more than him in some areas because of their interactions. And I think that's where we create our biggest bottlenecks. Yeah.

It's interesting because as you were saying that, I recalled working for a hotel operator. And she was very successful. She had really high standards. But she micromanaged people like crazy. And I pulled her in. And as we were trying to change kind of the culture of the organization, I said, you are a really great anchor to this business. And she took that as a compliment. I said, no, no, no, it's not a compliment because an anchor holds people back.

Right.

And it's really interesting because You know, what happens is people, we go out and we hire employees and we hire the best people we can find, but then we don't let them play within their superpower.

Exactly.

And then it's like, oh well, you don't understand my business. So what are the warning signs that an owner or a manager has become the bottleneck to the business?

Okay, I'll give you a really good example, and this could be for a solopreneur or it could be for a team-based business. And how many times do you hear people say, I don't have time to do this, because they are busy? We all get stuck in the busyness of our life. And I had one client that I worked with who thought it was a time problem. That was a symptom. And what was actually a problem was that she wasn't communicating fully to her clients what the expectations were, and she wasn't asking them for their expectations. So, she was trying to jump through hoops pleasing this customer when really it wasn't realistic to begin with. The business, what you're doing to serve people needs to be set up so that it creates a win for your clients, obviously. But it also has to create a win for you and for your team. So, it's kind of a dichotomy and sometimes feels like walking a tightrope.

Yeah, it really does because there are some clients And I've seen this time and time again where, you know, I've seen companies with 6-figure clients and those 6-figure clients are so— they draw so much on the resources of the business that it actually costs you more to deal with them. And so when we're thinking about this idea of kind of, oh, well, we need the revenue, but then it's not until you kind of take a longer look at the whole business and what it's actually costing to service this one customer. That everything just actually breaks down. It's like, this is just, like it doesn't make any sense.

Exactly. I had the same client that I talked to you about that had the time, thought she had a time problem.

Yeah.

Once she started communicating better to her clients and asking them, leading them through the experience and the conversation, her time improved like that. She ended up having time for exercise, for her family. And she was working 60-hour weeks.

Would it be fair to say that when you said that phrase about having conversations with her clients, that would be just as strong a result if you also say she took time to have conversations with her employees?

Absolutely. Yep.

In your notes that you sent me, you said that flow breaks before effort does. What does that look like in real life?

Yeah. So, if you think of a hose or a river, Right? And the water's flowing through there. If a dam is put up or there's a block in the hose, right? You can still be trying to squeeze that water out to water your garden, but there's a kink in it.

Mm-hmm.

Right? It's preventing the flow of the water. So the effort is still there, but the flow isn't. So it's important to be mindful about how to improve and increase that flow again and get it going.

So, how do owners and managers know that they're the bottlenecks? Like, what are the early warning signs that it might be that we are the ones holding our businesses back?

Yeah, I think it's really important to set up feedback loops, number one. And that is with clients and your team. And consider feedback loops with your colleagues. Maybe you're in a mastermind-type community and even friends. I would say, I say friends and family with caution because it's sometimes, I want to say it's more helpful to have people that understand the requirements and the experience that you're having as an entrepreneur, solopreneur, small business owner, whatever that is. Sometimes family and friends don't understand that. So you don't want to listen to everybody.

Right.

So when you do things like the 360s, when you're going out and you're actually talking to people, what are What are the signs we're looking for? Like, what is the outcome that we're looking for in order to know, hey, wait a second, maybe we need to improve something?

Well, you know what? There's always something to improve. But you have to, you have to look at it from the mindset of, am I looking at it from scarcity or lack? Because that's not the perspective you want to have.

Right.

It's, hmm, how could it be better? than this? What could I improve? So, one of the things that I suggest, and I wrote about it in my book, is that you actually look at, like, where's the most friction happening right now? And then ask yourself 3 simple questions. And I, even when I work with teams, I ask the team members as well, because the owner doesn't have all the answers.

And so, part of the challenge here is that When I talk to leaders, everything is fine. When I talk to leaders, everything— they— I see a lot of finger-pointing, that they're blaming their issue on other people or other circumstances. I tease, and we've said this many times on this show, that when you're pointing at somebody, you're pointing 3 fingers at yourself.

Exactly.

And so, when people are going through their business, they might think that this ongoing crisis is normal. It's part of the industry. Everybody— this is just the industry. And so they, they live in this pain, but what can we tell them today that could help wake them up to look at a possibility that this is not normal, that there are better ways to do things? How can we pinpoint some of the symptoms that they're experiencing to help them really take in this content and say, oh yeah, you know what, maybe I do have a problem.

Right. Right. And I understand that because, you know, you said people say that it's fine. But then you, next you said there's finger-pointing. Anytime that there's finger-pointing or blame, everything is not fine. So you have to look at like, what do you think the problem is? I think the problem is someone else.

Mm-hmm.

Right? Now you have to look at it and say, where could I potentially be a part of this, right? This is something that I had to do in my life when, you know, I was kind of at my, my lowest, I wanna say. And it's helpful to use resources. Like, I used books. I used other people. I used mentors and coaches. And now with AI, it's something that you could say, hmm, I'm having this situation. Everything's really fine, but it would be great if this team member could improve whatever it is, right? But I'm interested, what part could I be playing in this? And be open to what the possibilities are.

So it really seems to me that before we can even get started with kind of diagnosing this, we really, the leaders need to take on the ownership of humility before they can even start. They have to be able to turn around and say, I need to evaluate whether or not I am a problem.

Right.

As opposed to everybody else is a problem. The environment's the problem. The government's the problem. My life sucks. It's terrible.

Exactly, exactly. You know, the government's the problem. But who voted them in?

You hinted to the 3 questions that leaders need to ask. So, when we come back, I'd love to talk a little bit about those 3 questions, how to leverage them, and how to make them as powerful as they possibly can. And we'll get to that right after this. When the spotlight shines on your business, are customers applauding or yawning? In other words, how is your business performing? Make your business a star with a new book, Lights! Camera! Action!, business operational excellence through the lens of live theater by Marc Haine. Marc uses his business and acting experience to help you see your business like a live show so you can create a performance your customers will never forget.

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today at your favorite online retailer or directly at marchaine.com. Welcome back. I am speaking with Camilla Bignell. Camille, you hinted to your book a couple of times. Do you want to tell us a little bit about your book?

Sure. Can I show it to you?

How about I show it?

Oh, there you go. It's called Break the Bottleneck, and really it's a simple system to turn your expertise into growth, freedom, and lasting impact. And the reason why I wrote the book was because it's simple, but it doesn't always feel easy. And I wanted to communicate that to other business owners.

Lovely. And, uh, and it's available on Amazon, right?

It is available on Amazon paperback, and today or tomorrow the Kindle version should be available.

Excellent.

Yeah.

So, Camilla, we talked about before about— in my introduction, I talked about that people sometimes are really unclear when it comes down to direction and delegation and ownership. How does unclear ownership quietly create kind of this idea that we have to constantly do rework, we have to constantly escalate in crisis? What are some of the things you've seen?

So, an example I can share with you is, let's say you're working in a lawyer's office, right? And the lawyer has all of the responsibility because of his license and credibility, reputation, right? So he gives a task to someone but doesn't let them know what they are allowed to run with. And really, just, he wants them to lighten the load, but he hasn't yet given the vision of what that looks like, what they're allowed to do, what they're not allowed to do, what his expectations are, what is the employee's expectations. I think it's a great way to work with employees is to ask— treat them like a customer, basically. What does my employee need to serve me well?

Yes, I think about all the different patterns that I've seen out there and how absolutely frustrating people get because they don't know where to go next. Just like I mentioned about the incidental leaders, right? They're in a business doing the best they can. But for some reason, people think, oh well, I own the business so I must have all the answers. And then, having this humility then roll back and say, you know, maybe I don't. Maybe I could tap into people. But at the same token, we also see this environment where when people are given like a little bit of latitude, it gets rolled back through crisis because you made a mistake. Where does failing forward come into this idea of flow and growth and eliminating bottlenecks?

Definitely, the failing forward has to be part of the process because Continuous learning is something that we, that we have to plan on in business. I actually attended a training yesterday and it was about treating your business like a scientist. And that requires experiments. So, you have a problem or something that you want to improve or create. You have to have data to decide the next steps.

Right.

You have to create a hypothesis. And then you experiment and try that out, test it out. You think of the, I don't know the number of inventions, but the number of inventions that Alexander Bell, for instance, made. How many did he make before he actually had some success?

Right.

We learn from our mistakes. And I think experimentation, I like to refer to it as play. If you can be in a creative, playful mode, to learn from whatever it is you've just done, you're going to be more inspired and motivated to learn number one, make the change, and then improve upon it.

Yeah.

And gain momentum.

It's so interesting because when I talk to leaders about this idea of failing forward, and I often get the, do you know what failure costs me? What it costs? But to your point, I mean, I don't understand why we have an expectation if we're going to try something new. For instance, a brand new marketing campaign. We decide, we're doing the best research we possibly can. We're not going to go out and commit to a 5-year marketing plan on something brand spanking new. We're going to go out and we're going to do, okay, well, let's do a 90-day and see what happens and see if that— right? We're not going to jump in direct. But yet, there's a lot of programs, a lot of tasks. I've seen it even in municipalities where it's like, no, we're going to— the town council wants this. We're going to do this. Here's our 5-year plan to pull this off. And it's like, but wait a second, you've not tested it. You're basing it on input from faulty sources because it's only 1, 2, or 3 people. And let's face it, we will always know when somebody's not happy because they'll let us know that they're not happy. But then it's like, oh, we can't do this ever again. And it's like, wait a second, is that everyone's experience?

Right? I love how you talked about, you know, some think they have to have this massive 5-year plan. And it's okay to have this vision of what you want to achieve, and that could be 1, 3, 5 years out.

Yeah.

But it's the little incremental steps that are gonna get you there. Um, I liken it to a pilot when he's driving from point A to point B. He doesn't realize when he's almost supposed to be at the airport that he's in the wrong direction. He adjusts 1%, you know, along the way.

Right.

And that's the same with the 90-day plan versus the 5-year vision. It must be that way. And you talked about the expense of failure. If you go down that path of 5 years and then you realize you're on the wrong path, that's a whole lot more expensive than a mistake 90 days in and a correction.

Right. And somebody once told me that there's no such thing as a mistake, only learning, which I thought was brilliant. In your notes, you mentioned this philosophy of permission-based leadership. What is that in plain language?

Permission-based leadership, to me, is— it requires integration, right? And, and it's integrating our logical side, our creative side, soul, and strategy. And it's giving yourself permission rather than judging yourself or other people, giving permission to really see what's going on, to get curious about how it can get better, to have fun and enjoy yourself along the way. Because when you're running your own business, it's probably a third of your life or more of it, and it ripples out and affects everything else in your life.

Right.

So why not make it a great experience as you're doing What you love to do and do well. Yes.

This is absolutely fascinating. For people tuned in who are— this might be really resonating with them and they might like to get in touch with you. How can they get in touch with you?

The best way probably is through LinkedIn.

Okay. And so the link is in the show notes. People can find you there. Excellent.

Yeah. And I think I'm the only Camilla Bignell.

On the planet or on LinkedIn?

I don't know about the planet, but I think so. Yeah. The only one on LinkedIn for sure.

There you go. So you talked before about questions to help us reset our thinking and maybe even reset our business. Let's dig a little bit into those 3 questions.

Yeah. This is something that I did when I worked for a logistics company and then ran my own family's business with my brothers. And it wasn't until I was coaching that I realized I even had this system. So be mindful of the systems you have. And the first question is, what's working? And that's why it's important to get the perspective of all team members in the business. What's working? And then the second question is, what's not working? And you're going to typically, when I interview a team, you can start reading between, seeing between the lines and reading what the real problem is because You're going to see patterns. And it's going to help you really determine what is working, what's said or unsaid, and then what's not working. The owner might not see everything that's not working, and the employees might not see everything that's not working. But when you put it together, you have a much broader picture that's going to give you a clearer view of what's really Going on? And then the third question is, if there was one thing I could change, what would that be?

Hmm, that's interesting. One thing you could change, what would it be? Would it be— would this be aspirational? So are we looking at, you know, hey, if you have a magic wand or you could twinkle your nose like Bewitched, what would you— what, what would be different? Or is this something more strategic?

I think it— you could invite both in there. There has to be some strategy in there, obviously, but the aspiration and the, the vision for what it could be, that's really important too.

Yeah, I, I always falls back on that Alice in Wonderland thing when the Mad Hatter asks him, where do you want to go? And she goes, I don't know. So that doesn't really matter which way you go if you don't know where you want to go in the first place. So that having a destination obviously at the end, I think, is, is the key. However, the I really like this idea of once you understand what it is you want, you can then take a look at where you are and design something to get you to what you want.

Exactly.

Yeah. I'd like to get into some of the most common challenges leaders face when they're trying to improve their situation. One of my biggest fears always when I bring new topics up and we challenge our audience to try something new is that People will look at something and go, oh, you're right, I'm going to start asking those 3 questions and that's going to drive my whole business for the next 90 days. And it's like, hey, slow down. There might be some cautionaries and some pitfalls we should be aware of. And that's what I'd like to get into next, right after this.

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Welcome back! If this conversation resonates with you, it's usually because you're responsible for helping people lead better, work smarter, and avoid burning out in the process. Camille and I have spent our time and our energy working with leadership teams just like yours who don't need more motivation. They need clarity, better decision-making, and practical systems to help get their people moving in the right direction. Systems that they could actually use. So, if you're designing an experience, maybe it's an offsite, it's a retreat, a conference, or a leadership program, and you're looking for expertise that can really create real operational change for you, not just the good notes and the warm applause, we'd love to get into a conversation with you. Feel free to reach out to us. Our contact information is— in the show notes. Camila, once somebody's identified their bottleneck, what should be their next move?

So once you've identified your bottleneck, actually in, in the book I have something called the Ripple Effect Roadmap, and it basically sets your business up with 6 pillars. There's branding and positioning, lead generation and prospecting, sales conversations, conversions, mindset and leadership, business operations, leverage, and sustainability. And it's important to look at that area and look at, so what is the process that I have right now? What's the framework that I use or system I use to do something? And do you have a system at all? Typically we think we don't have a system, but just like putting our pants on one leg at a time, we have a system. It's just not written down, right? For most of us. I think that's the important thing is look at the system that you have. And again, what's working? What's not? What would I change in the system to make it better?

I really love those 6 pillars on the roadmap. I think when people get very analytical, they sit down and actually sit with their team and go through each one of these. We're going to find different ways of how each one is actually leveraged by another as well. You know, like when you talk about a new product launch, you know, maybe you're looking at at your product offering and saying, in order to appease our customers or to service our customers at a high level, we need to bring in a new product. Well, that ties into your marketing and your research. It might tie into your human resource capital. Do you need more help? Do you need better training? What is it that you're looking for? So, I do see that as much as it's a roadmap, it's almost like a circular kind of rehashing, like kind of almost like an orbit around your business.

It's interesting, Marc. Over the years, I've attended a lot of training group programs and one-on-one coaching. and things like that. I've invested in my learning since 2011.

Mm-hmm.

And what I saw quite often in the group programs was that people were running around like a chicken with their head cut off. And so in my mind, I saw this racetrack, right? This really unsafe racetrack. And I wanted to create something that allowed momentum and flow because it's important, but also allows for safety barriers and allows you to fast when you want to and slow down when you need to. And so, I created my Ripple Effect Roadmap is actually a happiness Celtic knot. So, it's like a, like an 8 on its side.

Nice.

And, and that way, yeah, that way it's a house for the frameworks that they need in their business, but, but also helps guide you through that flow, especially when you're feeling stuck.

Nice, nice. And you know, the nice thing about that is, you know, I've talked to lots of people who are afraid to make decisions because they don't know what the, what the future will hold. And so they get stalled out by decision paralysis. And I remember talking with one person and I said, you know, just take a step, just take a step towards something, make a goal step. And they said, well, what happens if it's the wrong something? And it's like, well, because you're not doing this whole big massive leap, You're not like moving asteroids. You're taking one step at a time. And so by doing one step at a time, you can always pivot. You can always change directions if you're finding that that's not working for you. And it's so funny that we have kind of this fear that if we try something, it's going to fail at such a huge level. And most often, because we're not— they're not huge investments in order to make the mini steps, we can learn, we can go, we can move forward. And then we can pivot when things don't work out.

Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, your ideal client is a great example of that. You can't just come in and outright say, this is my ideal client and, and know right off the bat. You are going to have to test the market, test what their problems are, how you serve the problem, who you like to work with. My client who thought she had the time problem. She didn't lose many clients. She just fine-tuned her messaging and the outcome that, that people were going to— the experience people were going to have, basically.

It's interesting, right? And that intentionality to the focus makes all the difference in the world.

Exactly.

I love that. For the people who are tuning in, what cautionaries and pitfalls should they be aware of as they start trying to think about Yes, they want to start defining what their bottlenecks are. Yes, they want to start kind of solving that problem. What should they be aware of as they try to make this change?

Yeah, I think one of the top ones that I've seen is that when you hit a bottleneck, quite often, we as humans, we think that there's a flaw with us. There's something wrong with us or something wrong with our team, right? It's typically not a character flaw. Okay. So I think that's one of the, the biggest ones that, that I would say.

So the message I get from that is give yourself grace.

Absolutely. One of the biggest gifts I think you can give yourself, for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah. And in return, the, the world benefits. Yes. The second one is confusing symptoms with the root cause.

Right.

Okay. I think that's, uh, huge.

And then taking your 3 questions and applying them to this symptom is going to expose what the root cause is.

It's going to help expose the root cause. It's, it's not quite as simple as just the 3 questions, you know. You mentioned humility. So there's, there's a vulnerability there that I think is key. And, uh, that's one of my values, vulnerability for progress, right? Not for drama. for progress. And it's, it's really important to be open-minded, open to, you know, what's my part in this and what am I willing to take on and what am I not going to take on as, as my load to bear?

Yes, I love that. Um, you know, again, it's boiling down to humilities we've talked a lot about on this show, the idea of humility, intentionality, and so on. And being able to move forward and understand that we ourselves are human beings first, which, which I really like. And I, I realize some people will hear that and go, oh, it's all very woo-woo. I just want to solve my problems. But to your point, those problems can only be solved when we dig deeper into what the symptoms that we're seeing, right?

Exactly. And that comes with getting to know yourself better as a person, you know. What do you want? What is non-negotiable? We all have to understand the boundaries that are required in the work we do, the life we want to live. The goal is to have a business that supports your life, not the other way around.

Yeah.

And that does require boundaries. I can remember working with clients who were quite spiritual at one point in my career. I was an online business manager. And you said the word structure and they'd cringe, you know? And, but framework, they accepted that term framework. So look at it however you need to look at it. And the idea is about making progress, not judgment or criticizing yourself or others.

I love that. I, uh, and we need to be talking more about this. Would it be fair to say, Camilla, that some people just might not have the skill to be able to do this on their own?

Absolutely. Absolutely. We— have you ever heard that term, you can't read the label from inside the jar?

Yes.

Yeah. So this is a perfect example. So I don't do it on my own. And I'm sure you don't either. So it requires, it might require mentors and guides. It might require a community. Resources. I use AI quite substantially on my own and with my clients, and not as the vending machine that a lot of people use it for, but I use it as a strategic thought partner, and I teach my clients to do the same.

Yeah, it's a heck of a brainstorming tool for sure. Camilla, this has been really, really fantastic. Could you remind everybody how they can get a hold of you if they want to work with you?

Yes, uh, you can reach out to me on LinkedIn, or you can contact me on my website at camillabignall.com.

Okay.

And, and my book is on Amazon.

Sounds very valuable. Thank you very much, Camilla. As we wrap up, do you have any last thoughts about what we've been talking about today?

Yeah, I think that the biggest thing I want to say is that you have an expertise. You, you have a business that you started because you, you have something you to serve people well with. So, the idea is that you're the hero of your own story, your own business, your own show. And sometimes we need help and guidance to get there. So, that's what I do. It's through systems, leadership, communication, and tools.

Camilla, thank you so much for doing this today. I really appreciate you being here, sharing your knowledge, your passion, your expertise. I love that you've actually Lived the experience. It's not just theoretical. It's actually lived experiences that you've learned and you've developed yourself out of. And that's something that you could share with your clients. So, I love that. So, thank you for doing the show.

Thank you so much for having me. And I have to say, I love the thought that you have about love and care. The love and care that you provide in being of service.

Dare to lead with love and care.

That's it exactly. Exactly. And you have to do that for others and yourself.

Love it. Camila, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Hey, if you have questions about today's episodes, or maybe you're thinking, hey, we could really use a complimentary 30-minute brainstorming session with Marc or Camila. Well, good news. You can snag a spot on my calendar. Just hit the link down below in the show notes. It's the one that's marked meetwith.marchaine. And you can reach out to Camilla. The links are there too. As always, I'm at your service. And if you haven't done so yet, please, why don't you make sure that you're subscribed to this podcast? Follow me on social media. I'm constantly posting stuff. Feel free to reach out. Just have a conversation. If you just want to reach out and just have a conversation about where you're at, what you're up to, more than happy to spend some time with you. I want to thank you for being here. Time is our most precious And I really appreciate the fact that you spent time on this watching this episode. And I hope you got tons of value. Thank you very much. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and I hope you dare to be the exception. See you next week.

Thank you for joining us this week on Experience leadership. Make sure you visit marchaine.com for a full directory of available episodes. While you're at it, if you found today's content valuable, please share it and tell your friends about the show. As Marc says, knowledge is power, but only if you share it. Be sure to tune in each week for the newest episode.

Thank you.

Please stay safe, stay healthy, and dare to be the exception.