How to Stop Being a Soul-Sucking Workplace

Employees don't quit their jobs. They quit their bosses. That quote's been around a long time. And yet, according to a Gallup poll, 50% of employees said that they left their job to get away from their manager. But it's really not fair to blame the managers. Or is it? And that's coming up next on Marc Haine Live. Welcome back to Marc Haine Live where small business owners and entrepreneurs pick up some core skill sets to help them work on their business, not just in their business. I am your host, Service Expert and Master of Experiences Marc Haine. And today, I am so excited to speak with my special guest, Workplace Culture Expert Michael Kerr. And we will get to him in just a moment. If you are one of my raving fans, then you'll have subscribed to my channel where you get a notification every time I launch new content. If you're not one of my raving fans, what the heck are you waiting for? Well, there's still time. Like always, if you find the information here valuable, please go ahead and click the thumbs up button and share this video with the people you think can benefit from this content. As customers, we have gone into business or we have gone into businesses rather that seem like it would be a hoot to work there. You go in and the environment is so loose, so fun. It's almost like joyous. And you think, wow, this is really great! We've also been in places that sound like they should be playing the death march on the PA system. So, what is the difference? We've all heard of places that seem to be a joy to work at. And yet, many, many of you listening are saying, joy to work at? But that's what I want too! And before we get into what it takes to create the former, I'd like to know from you our Question of the Day. So, what is your workplace culture like? Is it a place where you feel that you can be your authentic self? Or do you feel like you have to walk on eggshells everywhere you go? I'd love to hear some of your experiences. So, why don't you put them down in the comment box below? Is it a great place to work at? Is there some improvement that's needed? What would make getting up every single day and saying, wow, I get to go to work today. What would it take to make that happen for you? As I mentioned, our guest today is workplace culture expert, Michael Kerr. Michael Kerr is a Canadian Hall of Fame speaker who is, or at least during pre-pandemic times, traveled the world researching, writing, and speaking about inspiring workplace cultures. He's written about inspiring leaders and interviewed them. He's looked at businesses and how they can leverage humor to drive outrageous results in their businesses. Michael's ideas on building inspiring workplaces have been featured in hundreds of publications worldwide, including Forbes, Fast Company, Business Insider. And while his Inspiring Workplaces blog is listed as one of the top 30 workplace blogs in the world, he is also the creator of a Culture Leadership Academy, one of the most comprehensive culture leadership online programs available. And we will make sure to get the link down below so you can check it out. Michael is also the author of 8 books including I have to put it in front of my face. Ah, The Humor Advantage! Look at us, we're twins in stereo. Yeah, it's why some businesses are laughing all the way to the bank. He's also the author of Hire, Inspire, and Fuel Their Fire: How to Recruit, Onboard, and Train New Employees to Live Your Culture Out Loud. And he's got another book called The Jerk-Free Workplace: How You Can Take the Lead to Create a Happier, More Inspiring Mike, welcome! Michael, thank you so much for being here. How are you, sir?

I'm doing fantastic. And I have to say, I am a raving fan of you, Marc. So, I'm one of those raving fans.

Thank you for being a raving fan.

An honor to be here, sir.

Well, I am like you. I've read your book. I think it's brilliant. As a person who guides and mentors business leaders, I think this is a really important book that people need to read. People need to understand how the dynamics of their jobs and how the dynamics of their culture affects their employees. But before we get into any of that, maybe you can tell us a little bit about what you do for clients, for your clients.

Yes. Well, as you said in my introduction that you so brilliantly read, I do normally travel around the world researching, writing, and speaking about inspiring leaders, inspiring workplaces. So, I work with businesses that want to create rocking great service-first, more positive, more productive, less stressful workplace cultures to drive outrageous results. So, I coach leaders. I work with teams. And I speak to organizations about how to do that. And really about how to be more intentional about doing that because it starts there. And I loved your question of the day, Marc. It got me thinking about why I do this. Because in fact, the reason I write and speak about what I do is because I worked in one of those soul-sucking, fun-sucking workplaces that was sucking the life out of me. And I thought, I'm going to make it my mission to talk about how work is too important. Work has such a huge impact on our lives and our families and our physical and mental health that we owe it to our families, to our souls, to our customers to create a rocking great workplace where we want to show up on a Monday morning instead of feeling like we have to show up?

Yeah, I've had both types of jobs. And sometimes, I've had one job where I've experienced both types, where something's been going on within the confines of the business. And it went from being fun to all of a sudden being absolutely a drag. Really a ball and chain. And I've always been kind of I've always questioned why is it that it can change so suddenly. Like what are the variables that click it into being at one moment, it was fun and now pressure's on and now it seems like a toil? Any idea why cultures change like that?

Yeah, sometimes it certainly has to do with a change at the top. There's a change in leadership and we know that can have a huge impact. I can't tell you, Marc, the number of times I've gone into companies where I've done speaking or training for department X and then department Y. And I'm thinking to myself, you work for the same company because it's like night and day. And of course, a huge part of that difference has to come down to the leadership. But I hear that complaint a lot, Marc, where so many of my clients say, you know, we used to have a lot of fun at work. We used to have this rocking great culture. But we've kind of lost our mojo. And so, I think sometimes, if it's not a change in leadership, it's sometimes just people forgetting the importance again of being intentional about their culture, about not valuing their values and forgetting what those are. Often, it's when, as we're experiencing right now, when there's a period of immense change or a crisis even. And we start to take shortcuts. And we forget the importance of staying true to our values and focusing on the important stuff because it becomes even more important during times of chaos and stress and change.

Yeah, and it's so funny that you said that because when you look at something like municipal governments where you have everything seems to be rather departmentalized, you have some departments that just are doing so well and other ones that just seem to have the burden of the world on their shoulders. And one of the things that I've done is I talk about workplace culture through the confines of putting on a show. And so, just so everybody knows this episode, I'm going to do a little plug. This episode is brought to you by my brand new book, Lights! Camera! Action! It is business operational excellence through the lens of live theater. It tears down what it takes to put on a great show for your customers no matter what business you're in. To get a notification when the book is released, go to marchaine.com/lights-camera-action and click on the Coming Soon button. And you will get notifications as soon as it is available to the public. Like, I'm so excited!

That's awesome!

Yeah, it's great. I'm so excited. I finally got the notification for it and now, we're just waiting for it to ship. So Michael, talking about putting on a good show, what are some of the elements do you think that drive cultures to success? Like what are some of the elements of culture do you think contribute to the overall success of a business?

Yeah, thanks, Marc. I think again, I'm going to circle back to the importance of just being intentional. Every single leader on the planet talks a good game when they talk about culture, right? Every leader gets up. I mean, what leader is going to get up in front of their people and say, yeah, culture, yeah, not so important. Our people, yeah, they're about number 9 on the priority list. Nobody's gonna say that, right? I think there's a huge disconnect. There's that knowing-doing gap. Everyone knows, I think, that culture is important. But are they really backing that up through their actions? So again, it's about being intentional, recognizing you can't go down to Costco and buy your culture. You can't go to IKEA and buy your culture. You'll have parts left over that even your IT guys won't know what to do with. So, you've got to be intentional day in and day out, which means you've got to hire relentlessly with your culture in mind. You've got to hire first and foremost for attitude, for emotional intelligence, for culture. Not just culture fit but culture growth. People that are going to grow and expand your culture in the way you want to move your culture.

Right.

It's about being intentional about your values. So, not paying lip service to your values. Making sure they aren't just cheesy slogans but they are lines in the sand where you're holding people accountable to live those values out loud. And you're celebrating your employees for living up to those values. It's about being relentlessly focused on communication because communication is everything and everything is communication. It's about making sure whenever you make a decision in your organization that you filter that decision through your culture. So, every single decision you make it a habit to say, how does this both impact the culture that we want and how does it reflect our desired culture. Because there's a chicken and egg relationship with every decision we make. And it's about— and I know you know this, Marc— it's about having a service-first mindset within our culture. Yeah. It's about remembering that some of our most important customers, sorry, are our fellow employees, our teammates. They're sitting right there. That's some of your most important customers. So, when everybody embraces this idea, that the rest of my teammates are actually my customers and I need to provide good customer service to my teammates, I think you can't help but grow a pretty rocking workplace culture.

Right. You know, it's funny because I did one episode after the George Floyd incident with Tina Verghese, who talked about unconscious bias. And she talked specifically about, or we got around to talking about the fact that when we hire, A lot of times, we hire based on who we are, not necessarily what we need for the culture. Is there anything that in your mind— so when you talk about this idea of being intentional, is there a tool or is there anything, any kinds of questions that leaders need to be asking themselves when they're going out and scoping new additions to their teams?

Yeah, for sure. And I talk about that extensively in my book, Hire, Inspire, and Fuel Their Fire because that's such an important part of culture. That's why I wrote that book. And I think, organizations that really nail it, they do a couple things right. And one of the things they do is they spend as much time talking about their culture as they do interviewing their candidates. So, they recognize it's a 2-way conversation, that it has to be a love connection on both sides. So, they champion their culture on their website. They make it clear, hey, here's what we are all about. And they also screen for who they don't want. And I think we sometimes forget to do that and just say blatantly, hey, our workplace isn't for everyone. If you don't like working in this kind of environment, it's not for you. And then, making sure you do relentlessly, relentlessly focus on questions that get to that person's underlying character, their personality, their attitude. Do they have a sense of humor? I mean, I love some of the examples I have in my book. Clark Construction, for example, they've been known in job interviews to suddenly ask this question. So, a penguin walks into the room right now and the penguin's wearing a sombrero. What does the penguin say and why is he here? And they ask that question, you know, recognizing we're not hiring stand-up comedians, right? They're not hiring the person who's going to be the next Jerry Seinfeld. But they want to see how the person reacts. Can they think on their feet? Can they laugh a little bit? Do they have a sense of humor? Can they not take themselves too seriously?

Yeah. Yeah.

And I know so many great organizations that I interviewed in Europe, across the States, across Canada when it comes to their hiring. Some of them do as many as 8 or 9 or 10 touchpoints before they select a candidate. And they always, always do a separate culture screening. Another example that I love that kind of gets to the heart of this is Beryl Health call centers where they're when they're hiring a supervisory position, they will always take that person out to lunch because they have this great theory that how a person treats waitstaff, dogs, and kids is a really good indicator as to their character and somebody we want to hang around with day in and day out.

Yeah, it's so funny. It's such a vastly different philosophy than when I first started working back in the early '80s. Like in 1979, 1980, I started my my first full-time job. And it was, Marc, if I want your opinion, I'll tell you what it is.

Exactly.

And it's different now. And what I love about your examples and my background being hospitality, I mean, I've consulted with a lot of restaurants and a lot of hotels where it's like, God, if we could only get a body in, that would be great.

Yeah.

And one thing—

Right. Hiring somebody with a pulse and that's so different.

Exactly. Hiring somebody with a pulse. And so, that becomes their solution. And it's like, you know what? If you do this, I promise you, you will regret it. Because at some point, 6, 8 months down the line, you go, gosh, if I could just lose this person, life would be great.

Yeah.

And so, taking the time and the attention to actually go through that screening process like you said and go through these multiple phases. But part of the challenge is that I don't think a lot of leaders have training on how to hire appropriately. What kind of tools do you think that they need to do? I mean, obviously, one of them is, well, hire Michael Kerr. He can help you.

That's a really good one, Marc. I'm glad you put that at the top of the list.

It's my number one. It's my number one go-to. So, what else can they do to pick up that capacity? to be able to understand it. I talked to one entrepreneur a couple of weeks ago and she was saying that she downloaded a list of questions from the internet. And she knows she has to ask questions but she doesn't even know why she needs to answer them. And she has a challenge with retention and she has a challenge with teams working properly together. So, what are some of the tools? What are some of the questions they should be asking themselves in order to hire more effectively?

Well, again, it goes back to— and you said it, Marc— investing in it, right? That's the number one mistake I see, especially I think with small businesses who often have high levels of turnover. So, they do get into that rat race of just, get me a warm body because we need somebody. And it is so costly and so stressful to get the wrong person. Back to Beryl Call Centers, they have this wonderful sort of mantra. I was talking to the HR director there who has the alternative job title, the Queen of Fun and Laughter, by the way. Queen of Fun and Laughter. There's a job title. It's like Fort Knox to get a job with them. They have an incredibly positive, family-oriented culture. But it is like Fort Knox to get a job with us. She said, frankly, it's a pain in the ass to get a job with us because it's an even bigger pain in the ass to get rid of somebody who's a pain in the ass.

Yeah.

So, making sure you invest the time. One thing I advise leaders to do too is to Not look at this as a solo sport. Involve your team. Involve the people that are going to be working with this person. Very often, they're the people that have to live with the decision, right? So, get them involved. If you can do a team interview, if you can do a multi-step approach where they ask some questions as well, they will have more ownership in the decision, making sure everyone understands what it is you're looking for. So, you need to get clarity around that, right?

Right.

What are your values that are important to you? What attributes do you want to hire for? Again, and I'm sure you talk about this, Marc. It's an old cliché. We need to hire for that attitude and personality because you can train for so much of the rest. It's really hard to transplant somebody's attitude when you hire somebody with a poor attitude. And again, it's that mindset stuff. And you talked about it at the beginning where it's really easy to default to that notion that— and I talk about this in the book— how we all want to, of course, hire somebody who's just like us because we're fabulous. Why wouldn't we want more of this?

Right.

But that's a huge mistake. You end up hiring a bunch of clones to yourself. And if you want to be more innovative and expand your culture and expand your business, that's really, really dangerous. So, you have to watch that you aren't bias towards hiring people that feel comfortable to you, that are a comfortable fit because they seem exactly like you?

Well, and I think it goes back to what you said about this idea of being intentional. And so, some people might not understand what that means when it comes down to hiring. But at the end of the day, we're looking for what is the personality you're looking for? What is the job that they're going to be doing? One of the things I learned in hotels is if somebody's a housekeeper, they're not going to want to get into food service. Because they tend to be more on the introverted scale. If you're in food service, you don't want to do housekeeping because you seem to be more outgoing. You're good with the randomness of a day. Whereas, a housekeeper has very specific things that they need to accomplish and they're very detail-focused. And so, it's being able to understand the personality you're hiring for. But then also understanding what are you hiring for that's going to make up for what you're lacking in your team.

Right, yeah, absolutely.

And that intention is really the one that you have to sit down and really kind of wangle off. Because when people are hiring the people with the pulse, it's a challenge.

And I want to remind folks too just before we leave this topic that this goes back to one of the really critical reasons why your culture is important. But why you also need to promote your culture to the world. You need to celebrate if you've got a rocking great culture. You don't want to be kept the world's best secret. Because if you create a culture that is known as a fun, positive, service-first place to work, as a great place to be an employee, then guess what? You don't have to go hunting for employees. You become the hunted. You look at organizations that are known, that have that brand reputation for being a great place to work, like a Southwest Airlines or Zappos. They don't have to worry about finding employees in tight labor markets because people go to them in droves. There's a few job openings and they get swamped with applications. So, build that great culture to attract more employees but also to attract better quality employees. But don't keep it the world's best secret. Sing it on your website. Promote it. Talk about it. The top 10 reasons why you rock as a workplace. Create some fun videos. Make it come to life. Make it conversational. Add humor into it to stand out from the herd, to be heard.

Yeah, there's a whole different thing from herd mentality there. To be heard. You have to be heard. And it's interesting that you say that because that's something that I've worked in small markets. And so, Alberta is fraught with all these different small markets that suffer and really struggle to get some talented people in their doors. But you're absolutely right. The minute that people understand that you are the place that people want to work at. The list is long. You are able to really pick the cream of the crop because people want to work there.

Absolutely. And yeah, one of the lines I remind people to do all the time too is hire with humor and for humor. So, you want to hire people who have a good sense of humor. But also, remember to use humor to stand out from the herd. I have all sorts of examples of small businesses that added a whack of funny, crazy, outrageous humor to their help wanted ads. And whenever they did that, they got away way higher response. I remember the former manager of Barney's Motel in Brandon, Manitoba. He used to have hilarious help wanted ads. And he said when he started doing these ads, like hiring a cleaning person for his motel, he would have ads that would say things like, hey, do you want to travel the world, meet interesting people, see new things? Okay, well, how about if you clean the rooms of people who have traveled the world and seen interesting things, right? So, they were kind of cheeky a little bit. But he said, He got a way better response rate. And some of the ads, they're brutally honest. I have seen ads that talk about how this job is boring. It's repetitive. But it's done in such a hilarious way. And it sends the message, hey, we're not trying to pull the wool over your eyes. We're being upfront with you about what you're stepping into in this job. We're going to be totally honest with you but in a funny way. They always get a better response rate with those kinds of ads.

Yeah, and it resonates with the people they're trying to attract, right?

Yeah.

And who wouldn't want to work for somebody, for an organization that uses that level of sense of humor in something as simple as a job ad or a job posting?

Exactly! It sends a powerful message.

Yeah. You know, one of the things that I've recognized in workplaces is this idea of trust in the workplace. And before the pandemic, we were I mean, Zoom's been around now for a few years and I've been doing Zoom for ages. But when it came down to working, let's say at a municipality, I was working for a municipality and they would look at the watch if you walked in and they go, oh, you're only getting at your desk. It's 10 o'clock. And it's like, well, actually, I've been working since 8 because I went out and met some clients. But this idea of if you're not sitting at your desk, you're not working. And now, the pandemic has changed all that. Where somebody a year ago, this time last year would say, oh, I would never let my staff work from home because I don't know if I could trust it. Now, they have no choice. So, how now, brown cow, can leaders bridge the communication gap that occurs now that people aren't necessarily working in their office? How do they bridge the communication to make sure that the people that are working remotely know that they are trusted?

Yeah, and it is such a huge issue, Marc, right? And I've heard it from CEOs, from presidents, talking to them directly. And they said, well, I don't know what my employees are up to. And my simple response to them is always, well, did you before know what they were up to every minute? I'm sure you didn't, right? We have to ask ourselves as leaders, especially right now, what words and actions might be eroding trust, what words and actions are going to help us Maintain trust in the workplace. So, we don't want to abandon our employees and just leave them totally to their own devices, right? We have to find that balance. But we have to make sure we are demonstrating our trust in employees by giving them trust. And it's a huge mindset, right? Because we have to shift away. And some companies were doing this anyways, even before the virtual hybrid workplace, where they were shifting away from a per-hour mindset where we pay our employees per hour like they're drones versus production, paying for production, paying for output. And that's one of the mindset leaders have to adopt. And then, in terms of bridging the communication gap, I think it starts with just being way more intentional about making sure you are checking in with employees on a regular basis so they don't feel abandoned versus though— and if you have teenagers at home, you know there's a difference— checking up on employees. So, checking in but not checking up. Scheduling regular social coffee chats even, just with a social element to it. One of the things I'm a huge fan of to bridge the gap between the officers working in the office now and the homers working at home is to set up random coffee dates with people between the 2 sections, right? Where everybody's name goes into a random name generator and you spit them out and you connect with somebody who's on the other side of that home-office divide. But as a leader, it's really making sure you are intentional. I just read a story about a week or two ago of a CEO who once a week, he puts together a short little video to update all the home-based employees about what's gone on in the office, including some of just the social announcements, right? Like Mary just got engaged and Bob's having a lobotomy. Okay, maybe that's not a good example. But you know what I mean? And just keeping them up to date on a weekly basis. So, simple things like that can be so, so important.

Yeah, I love that you called people who work— you have officers and you have homers. So now, what popped into my brain is people working from home. Are they Homer sapiens?

Homer sapiens. And now, we're getting into the groan territory.

No, no, we're getting— I need to be punished. I want to get into some— I want to take a deeper dive I think into the importance of humor in the workplace. But before we do, I just want to do a quick little check-in. I just want to see if there's any comments in the comment box, which there isn't, which is great. But maybe you could let everybody know how they can get in touch with you if this is resonating with them and they think that they need to connect with you.

Yeah, thanks for that, Marc. My website is the mothership website is www.

mikeker.com.

And my email address is mike@mikeker.com. Nice and simple. And I would love to hear from you. If you've got questions, if you have ideas you want to share, please reach out.

Thank you so much, Mike. You know, I hope to our viewers, I hope this is making sense and is of value to you. Please feel free to again, give this a thumbs up. Put comments in the comment box. That's one way that we know that this is resonating with you. You could say something like, oh my goodness! This made so much sense! Or even, You can argue the point. You could turn around and say, this was a bunch of BS and here's why I think that. Because contrary points of view— What the heck? I know! There are people with contrary views, Mike. What do you want to do?

I know.

Right? But we got to support them.

What the heck is Mike talking about? He's crazy.

He makes no sense. And so, if you know somebody who would benefit from this information, we all know in our work lives, we look at some content. We go, oh my goodness! Steve needs to hear this. And you can go ahead and you can go ahead and share it with them. With my permission, you could share it with them. So, in past episodes, I had a business strategist, Fong Shua, who talked about getting noticed in a competitive market. Michael, when you think about the use of humor, how can businesses use humor to stand out in their marketplace? You mentioned a couple with want ads. But is there something more concrete as far as how do they appeal to customers?

Oh, Marc. Yes, we need another 3 hours to get into that topic, young man. Holy smokes. I mean, where to begin? Yes, there's all sorts of ways. And it comes down partly to branding, right? So, branding yourself in a safe way with humour. And there's everything. And it's almost like going through a branding touchpoint to see, are there places here where we could stand out from the herd with a little bit of humour? Everything from— now, many, many businesses, the ship may have already sailed on this, but funny names for your business, right? I mean, I have a whole list in my book, The Humor Advantage, of funny business names like Frying Nemo Fish and Chips Shop or Tree Wiseman Landscapers, Indiana Bones Temple of Groom Doggy Daycare. It's just so corny. But yeah, or funny slogans, right? Funny slogans. And again, I've got Hundreds of these examples in my files. Like a taxidermist office, we really know our stuff. On a plumbing truck, we repair what your husband fixed. Hundreds of these. But again, standing out in substantial ways. And we know that this can make a huge difference. There's a donut shop in Phillipsburg, Pennsylvania that is known to be the largest home of the largest chocolate donut in the United States. Wow! Now, this is the US we're talking about, Marc, so we can only imagine how big this chocolate donut must be. So when you go in to order what the employees have affectionately called the Big Chocolate Honker, they've created this ritual where they honk an old-fashioned bike horn, which sends— and this is the goofy part, I love this— it sends a signal out to all the seniors who hang out at the donut shop who have been trained so that when they hear the horn, all the seniors in unison go honk honk.

Honk, honk!

And they throw their hands up over the air and it's crazy. Now, you might think that's just a goofy, crazy, silly example. But here's the deal. That little ritual saved this mom-and-pop business. It got them free publicity from all the surrounding states with news crews coming in. And it had an impact on their culture, I think, and how they embrace new ideas and how they just delivered their service. But it helped them stand out from the herd to be heard. And I have examples Thousands of examples of like that, of simple little things. Shutterfly. I phoned up Shutterfly, the online photo web sharing site. And again, here's a simple opportunity. You've got that boring voicemail menu option, you know, blah blah blah, that puts everyone to sleep. Well, why not make it a little interesting? So at the end of Shutterfly's many options, they gave me this rather option, or this rather delightful option. If you want to hear all these options again, But in pirate, press nine. I said, "Of course I want to hear it in pirate." Who would not choose the pirate option? So I pressed nine. There was a pirate. Ah, matey! If you think your package has been lost at high seas, press number seven. I mean, how crazy is that right now? You don't have to go that outrageous. There's a software company in New York where when you phone into their menu options. It's got this very upbeat conversational woman so it doesn't sound like a drone or an automated voice saying things like, hey, if you want to talk to the most rocking sales team in the land, press number 3. And why wouldn't we say that instead of, for sales, press number 3, right? The most rocking sales team in the land, press number 3. If you want to hear— and this is exactly how they phrase it— if you want to hear a pretty good joke, press number 4. If you want to hear an excerpt from our in-house rock band, The Dinosaurs, press number 5. Right? So, they just added a little bit of life to it. And of course, these days, you have to do that on your website. Your website is your marketing page out there. So, make sure your website is fun, engaging. Again, fun top 10 lists. Have a humor section on your website where you collect stuff relevant. That's the key. Relevant. to your business or your industry. Funny questions maybe your customers have asked. Funny stories. Bring your employees to life on your website. None of those boring headshots with everybody looking so serious and self-important. Make it fun. Make it personal. Introduce us to the team. Bring some humanity to it. Make sure you are communicating in a way that's conversational, that connects with people. Can I share a great example, Marc?

Please.

I love these examples. We have to remember communicating with a little humor helps us stand out in a big, big way. I forget who said the quote but somebody once said, advertising is the price we pay for being boring. So, let's not be boring. I ordered a bar of deodorant from a company called Native Deodorant. And I actually ordered this after doing one of my keynotes and somebody in the audience came up and said, Okay, Mike, if you want some good humor from a company, just order a bar of deodorant. I tried not to take it personally. So, I ordered this bar of deodorant and here's the email response I got back right away for my $9 order. In all caps letters in the subject line, Michael, you rock! It was just another mundane day at our office when suddenly Jackie took a look at the computer and her eyes widened. We did it! she exclaimed. We got an order from Michael Kerr! Laura jumped out of her chair and ran to Jackie's desk. She didn't even read the entire email. She just saw Michael and started screaming in delight. Oh my God, oh my God! Laura shouted. This is real, this is real! We have an order from Michael! The entire office erupted in applause. Party in the USA blared from the speakers as confetti rained down from the ceiling and champagne bottles were popped. Brilliant, right?

Yeah.

So why wouldn't— now maybe Because it doesn't fit your brand. Maybe you don't feel you can go that outrageous. But can you do something? Can you do something at least that's a little more conversational? Just a little more casual, a little bit of humour injected to make that connection. And then of course, let's remember in all our interactions, humour is a great way to stand out from the herd. So, it goes down to the attitude of that person interacting with your customers. Are they anticipating your customers' needs? in a fun way? Are they doing something to just go the extra inch in a simple little way with a little bit of humor? Are you following up with a little bit of humor? And again, I've got lots of examples we could get into, Marc.

So, one of the challenges though we have in businesses is first of all, businesses, some businesses are quite, you know, we're business people. We're stodgy. We're in this box. But Further than that is the frontline staff. How do organizations start setting that as an example so that they can give permission to their staff to lighten up?

Well, and I think you hit it right on the head there. It starts by giving them permission to lighten up. We want to make sure again, we're hiring people who get the importance of customer service, who actually— here's a thought, Marc. Here's a crazy Thought, Marc. Let's hire people who actually like human beings, who like other people. That's a really good starting point in my book.

Check.

Yeah, check. Do you like people? Are you okay with the human race? Because that's kind of important in our business here. And then, making sure as a leader, boy, you've got to be modeling this stuff, right? And they need to see you. When I talk about leaders living their values out loud, one of the things I encourage them to do. And one of the things that so many great leaders do is they are intentional about being visible living their values out loud. So, they purposely walk the store floor. They purposely are seen interacting with customers or going into the manufacturing plant and rolling up their sleeves or picking up garbage in the parking lot to send a message about what's important and what their values are. And so, you need to model the way in your interactions with your customers, right? And you need to give them permission. And talk about it. Talk about— you don't want to— I dread the notion of creating policy around humour because that kind of sucks the fun out of the joint. But have a conversation around what's appropriate, what's safe humour, what's positive humour, and why it matters. And use examples. I know the company Groupon, they actually in their onboarding process, they actually have multiple choice questions for their copywriters to help train them on the appropriate level of humor. And it's fascinating, the questions, because they have different examples and it helps to show where sort of that sweet spot is, right? So yeah, no, not that one because that might offend all the mother-in-laws in our audience. So maybe not that joke, but this style of humor is perfect, right? So, have a conversation around what works, what's appropriate. And more than anything, it's just about giving permission to our employees to be themselves, to be their authentic selves, right? That's why so many of the great call center companies out there, they don't work from a script. They train their employees relentlessly to make sure they're professional, to make sure they're achieving their goal. But then, they give them the freedom to answer the way they want to answer the phone. The freedom to respond to things the way a normal human being would respond. So, they're not always just reading from a rote script.

And again, it comes back to what you said earlier about this idea of being intentional and communication. One of the challenges is I'm looking at what the capacity you bring and I can't help but wonder to some businesses, They might need outside help. They might not be. They've been in a box for so long. They might need outside help. And to me, it seems a perfect mix that you would be the kind of person that they would call if they needed to shake up their culture. What are some of the things that do you think that block? People will hear this and people go, yeah, it's fine for all the other businesses but it's not fine for us. What are the blocks that you've noticed in some organizations when it comes to to trying to lighten up or trying to do something that makes the place more fun to be in.

Yeah, and you hit it in one of your comments there, Marc, already is that some people will say, well, that's fine in that kind of business. And I always stress that when I'm talking to people, right? I will say, I get that you guys aren't running an amusement park. You're not running an airline or a hotel. You're in a different kind of business. Maybe you're in a really serious business or a conservative business. It doesn't mean there aren't opportunities to create a more positive, humane, people-focused business. It's not about being somber. It's about taking ourselves lightly in order to take our customers' needs seriously and our work seriously. And there's a world of difference between those 2 things. So, some of it is that mindset that, well, no, we're in this business. We're in a very serious business. But boy, I tell you, I have examples from law firms. I have examples from the U.S. Navy. From doctors' offices, from funeral homes where they've used humor in strategic ways. So, if those organizations can do it, there's no excuse for any of us not to find a way.

I read in this about a story about they were trying to communicate with a capsule or something. And they put everybody out on the beach to spell out Call home or something. E.T., call home. They lost communications with a satellite or something. And so, they held up all these signs.

Yeah, that's the government. Yes, yes, you could do this. You could do this anywhere. And the other big roadblock I think I get, Marc, and again, I always stress this, right? We're not talking about being the office clown or telling jokes. It's not about being a stand-up comedian. It's about just having a sense of perspective and balance. It's about being more human, more real, laughing at ourselves. Is it not a truism after all, Marc, that the more seriously a person takes themselves, the less seriously everyone tends to take that person?

Ask any CFO.

I mean, I have worked with some hilarious CFOs who don't take themselves too seriously. But yeah. One of the roadblocks to getting back to your question is people worry all the time, overworry that the PC police are going to come out. That if they use humour, if they put out the humour welcome mat, they're going to be offending people left, right, and centre. And it's probably the number one question I get. And here's the deal. When I've gone into companies all over the world and interviewed some of those organizations that are most known for their fun, for their humour. It's one of their core values. They embrace it on a daily basis. I ask them that very question. And you know what they always say to me? They always look at me like I have 3 heads and they just go, it's not a problem. It's not an issue because you get the kind of humour that you create in your culture. And again, this goes back to the chicken and egg relationship between humour and culture. Humour helps us drive a better culture but it also reflects a positive culture. If you first and foremost, build that positive, respectful culture full of trust and open and honest communication, then guess what? Your humour is going to be respectful and positive for the most part. And so, time and time again, they say, you know what? It's just, it's never an issue. There's a study in— I belong to the International Group of Humour Studies. And there was a study in one of the journals there about the role of the proverbial office joker. And what the study found was that proverbial office joker person played an incredibly invaluable role in workplace cultures in terms of improving morale, improving communication, retelling stories that kept their culture alive. Because the office joker tends to tell and retell old stories from the company. They speak truth to power. So, they ask very provocative questions, which we want in a healthy workplace. And here's what— and this is what I think we have to take to heart. Here's what so many CEOs said in that study is, you know what? Yeah, there are the occasional times when that office joker steps over that proverbial humour line. The occasional time. And when that happens, we just sit down and have a conversation with them and say, look, Bob, I think you probably know That was a little too far. We love your humor. We don't want to squash your humor here. But yeah, you're right. Just be careful, right? And every CEO in that study said the benefit of the office joker outweighs that occasional misstep. So, don't let a fear, an unnatural fear of humor prevent you from creating this rocking kind of workplace that's so Many people are starved for.

Yeah. I did a lot of work in casinos. And one of the things that I used to tell the servers when they used to come in, the very first question I'd say was, what section are you playing in? And when I first asked the question, they went, what? I said, well, when you go out there, don't you play with your customers? Aren't you out there playing and just having a good time with your customers? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, from that point on, The sections then became the sections that we play in. And again, like you said, it's not about being the joker. But it's about what does it take to have a good time at work?

Yeah.

How do we make that happen, right? And for me, it's eye-opening when I see these stories because a lot of times, I will get contracted and probably you go in where there's a problem. Somebody says, I just don't know what the problem is. Our turnover is 70%. We can't keep people. Nobody seems to be happy at work. We've offered more money but it doesn't seem to work. What can I do? And then, we see that at the end of the day, it starts at the top. And so, the big question then becomes for somebody who is in their box, how can they shake that? How can they shake this thing that I'm at work, I'm the boss, people have to respect me so I have to be very much here?

Yeah. Oh, you're asking me?

Sure, why not? I know I ramble on quite a bit. But yeah, but is there anything that people need to do to check themselves?

Oh yeah, for sure, for sure. I think a huge key component of leadership is self-awareness, right? Being self-aware. There's something called CEO disease, in fact, which is this phenomenon of just not being aware of how your words, your actions are maybe impacting the people around you. So, being self-aware, being open to feedback is the first step, right? You can't fix a problem you don't know you have. So, you've got to be really honest with yourself. And then, one of the things I say to my clients all the time, especially in senior leadership positions, especially the higher up you go, is I challenge them to remember that it feels like it's a solo sport very often. I think we talk about that old cliché that it's lonely at the top. Well, it shouldn't be lonely at the top. And I think what effective leaders need to do is to reach out. Reach out to other colleagues at their level for support. Reach out to get some professional coaching to help them see things in a different way and maybe learn some new skills that they do need to learn. Reach out to your employees and ask them for input, for feedback, and for advice. And get their help. The more you ask your employees for input, for their ideas, the more you send that message that you value them.

Yeah.

It's one of the most powerful things you can do to recognize your employees. It's one of the simplest things you could do to recognize your employees is to just say, hey, what do you think? How am I doing? What could I be doing differently? Is there anything I should start doing, especially right now? Let's bring it back to this crazy situation we find ourselves in right now. Is there anything I could start doing right now that would make this whole situation easier for you? And is there anything I should stop doing that could help make this whole situation easier for you? So, I'm not sure if that exactly gets to the heart of your question, but—

It does.

A lot of it does just get back to self-awareness.

It brings back this whole idea as leaders that we have to have the humility to know that we don't have all the answers. And the more that we reach out, actually, I mean, there are studies all over the place about how much if the team gets involved, they're able to do magical things. In fact, even during the pandemic, there are lists and lists of small businesses that came in that they had a small team where they opened up the conversations. And because of it, Their servers became drivers to do delivery service because they couldn't afford to keep doing Uber Eats and all the delivery services. And so, they had 5 servers who all of a sudden became delivery drivers. And it kept them employed. It kept them engaged in the business. And they were there to make sure that the operation was a success. And so, it's there. The examples are out there. And for anybody who says, oh, well, that's them. It can't be me. Again, like Michael said, it's time to get some help and call in a professional to help you build capacity in that realm. Michael, this has been really, really great. We've talked a lot about all sorts of stuff. Do you have any last words or a point or two that you think the audience should know?

Yeah, I just, again, I always circle back to the notion that the reason I do this is work has a huge impact on our lives. As I started at the beginning of this, work affects our marriages, our family life. It affects our mental and physical health. It affects very often where you live, right? I mean, how else can you explain North Dakota? Okay, I'm kidding. I loved— I'm kidding. It's just a wee bit of a time sucker, you may have realized, going into work every day. It affects our personal growth as human beings, who we socialize with. It has an enormous impact on our lives. So again, I want to remind you, I think we owe it. We all owe it to our colleagues, to our bosses, to our employees, to our customers, to our families, to our souls to create as rocking, as positive, as inspiring a workplace as possible because this thing matters. And you cannot create a rocking, great, fun workplace culture through a 1 or 2 or 20 times even year event. It's not always about things you can check off on a to-do list. It's about being intentional about doing those simple things day in and day out and having that mindset and recognizing everything you do either contributes to a positive culture or detracts from it in some way. And if you want some weekly reminder, I would invite people to go to my website www.mikekerr.com. Again, if you sign up for my weekly ezine Inspiring Workplaces where I talk about all this good stuff, You will get a free ebook called 340 Ways to Put Humor to Work to help give you a little bit of inspiration and some ideas to help you up the fun factor in your workplace.

That's awesome! Michael, thank you so much. I am so grateful that you could be here today to share your knowledge and your expertise. I think that you've given business owners a lot to think about. And I think it's just So important. So, thanks for being here. Love having you.

Thank you, Marc.

You're awesome.

It's been an honor.

And I love to giggle with you.

It's fun to giggle with you. It's fun to, you know.

Yeah. Thank you so much. Hey, why don't you give me a thumbs up if this was of value to you? This is the reason why I do it. It's no other reason. I want to make sure that you're okay, that you're picking up capacity that you could use to make your business better. And as always, my offer stands. If you would like 30 minutes of my time to brainstorm your business with you and your team, please feel free to book yourself on my online calendar. The link is below. It's the one that's marked meetme.so/MarcHaine. And as always, I am at your service. I am here for you. And if you haven't done so yet, why don't you go ahead and hit the subscribe button and ring the bell? That'll give you first dibs whenever Bring your content. Whenever I bring you fresh content. And it'll help you work on your business, not just in your business. You can essentially become one of my raving fans and that would be A-okay. As always, I'm here for you. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and dare to be the exception.